On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
Spot on. Top level analysis right there.
Word, honestly I feel even this hellbat change isn't going to do much. If you think about it, Zerg basically has gotten so use to "I should be able to make 6 drones at a time constantly for the first 20 min" that they think its a right. I've seen so many proleague zergs, knowing the push is coming, and continuing to make tons of drones.
Zerg need to get less greedy, and honestly being less greedy is "standard", its just that until now, terran has been so terribad at getting any pressure onto zerg, the super-econ-greed has become "standard". Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not.
And once the hellbat push has been beaten, zerg is in a beautiful position. Hellbats arent doing jack shit to mass roach...
On June 19 2014 00:19 orvinreyes wrote: Here's how Effort defeated Maru's hellbat/marine/banshee timing push:
When maru attacks he could simple just move home or away and not commit to it.
At the same time, the zerg had no drones at his third at all at this time. I dont know many CCs maru had, was it 3? If it was 3, i would say maru is in a good position economy wise then since he was running 2base.
Against mass roach which he saw zerg went, adding a few tanks isnt so bad i guess. This nydus will not work consistently overall. Just go back home, not commit when u see proper defence from zerg, job is already done and hellbats will be great later on if zerg goes the traditional muta/ling/bane while there are still not bad with bio either against roaches.
Have proper structures to see for potential nydus is enough, send workers or just send units since u have went home with them.
Allowed to be a little extreme, I would even hope that non-Korean players go extinct so that we can focus on Koreans when it comes to balance discussion. I don't care how the game is balanced at bronze league or at mediocre foreigner scene.
Allowed to be a little extreme, I would even hope that non-Korean players go extinct so that we can focus on Koreans when it comes to balance discussion. I don't care how the game is balanced at bronze league or at mediocre foreigner scene.
It's called focus for a reason.
And Id rather have the Korean scene die, than having a perfectly balanced game without foreigners.
Isn't the only difference balance wise between 2010 and 2011 that 2010 had more 2rax all-ins?
Don't be ridiculous, there are enormous differences, maps such as steppes and lost temple took their leave, BF got nerfed, siege tanks got nerfed. ZvT in 2010 was a huge joke compared to 2011.
Isn't the only difference balance wise between 2010 and 2011 that 2010 had more 2rax all-ins?
Don't be ridiculous, there are enormous differences, maps such as steppes and lost temple took their leave, BF got nerfed, siege tanks got nerfed. ZvT in 2010 was a huge joke compared to 2011.
Wasn't the end of 2010 Rain vs MC after Rain dominated the season with 2rax all-ins?
Isn't the only difference balance wise between 2010 and 2011 that 2010 had more 2rax all-ins?
Don't be ridiculous, there are enormous differences, maps such as steppes and lost temple took their leave, BF got nerfed, siege tanks got nerfed. ZvT in 2010 was a huge joke compared to 2011.
Wasn't the end of 2010 Rain vs MC after Rain dominated the season with 2rax all-ins?
Or was that 2009?
There were no 2009 SC2 tournaments. The game wasn't out in any form yet.
But yes, you are thinking of Open Season 3. Where Rain dominated with his 2/3rax stuff for the whole season and then got embarrassed by MC.
I was not saying hellbats are imba, eventually we will figure out some decent counter builds, but for now its very strong. However i think it seens to be bad for the matchup, it often becomes a timing push that can end the game vs a counter timing push that can end the game. Hopefully the meta stabilizes out of this since muta baneling vs bio is much better than hellbat push followed by roach nydus or roach something timing.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
Spot on. Top level analysis right there.
Word, honestly I feel even this hellbat change isn't going to do much. If you think about it, Zerg basically has gotten so use to "I should be able to make 6 drones at a time constantly for the first 20 min" that they think its a right. I've seen so many proleague zergs, knowing the push is coming, and continuing to make tons of drones.
Zerg need to get less greedy, and honestly being less greedy is "standard", its just that until now, terran has been so terribad at getting any pressure onto zerg, the super-econ-greed has become "standard". Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not.
And once the hellbat push has been beaten, zerg is in a beautiful position. Hellbats arent doing jack shit to mass roach...
While I agree that Zerg needs to adapt, your quote "Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not." is a total BS which has no evidence in reality. Even if you meant to exaggerate. I have never seen a game where Z has 75 drones and T has 25 SCVs in macro games.
The truth is, T does have more or less equal (i.e. equally greedy) economy throughout the game, unless game progresses to the later stages. It's just that once Z's economy is up and running optimally, they have better production mechanism and recovery. So T and P ideally want to slow down that process instead of playing NR10. But it has not much to do with Z's greed and people like you who call Z players "greedy" in a pejorative sense need to get a grip. It's quite annoying because it has no bearings to actual games. (Has anyone ever seen 1:3 worker ratio in v. Z matchups?)
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
Spot on. Top level analysis right there.
Word, honestly I feel even this hellbat change isn't going to do much. If you think about it, Zerg basically has gotten so use to "I should be able to make 6 drones at a time constantly for the first 20 min" that they think its a right. I've seen so many proleague zergs, knowing the push is coming, and continuing to make tons of drones.
Zerg need to get less greedy, and honestly being less greedy is "standard", its just that until now, terran has been so terribad at getting any pressure onto zerg, the super-econ-greed has become "standard". Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not.
And once the hellbat push has been beaten, zerg is in a beautiful position. Hellbats arent doing jack shit to mass roach...
While I agree that Zerg needs to adapt, your quote "Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not." is a total BS which has no evidence in reality. Even if you meant to exaggerate. I have never seen a game where Z has 75 drones and T has 25 SCVs in macro games.
The truth is, T does have more or less equal (i.e. equally greedy) economy throughout the game, unless game progresses to the later stages. It's just that once Z's economy is up and running optimally, they have better production mechanism and recovery. So T and P ideally want to slow down that process instead of playing NR10. But it has not much to do with Z's greed and people like you who call Z players "greedy" in a pejorative sense need to get a grip. It's quite annoying because it has no bearings to actual games. (Has anyone ever seen 1:3 worker ratio in v. Z matchups?)
Both zerg and protoss seem to be rather invurnerable to any attemp to slow their economy down from terran. If you go for multiple reapers, you force some lings and perhaps kill one or two drones, but you delay everything of your own even more. Remember in WoL when the good terrans microed, picked of sentries and ran away while getting three bases agains a toss that barely held on to two? Seen any games lately where protoss goes for earlier thirds than the terran?
The race that seems the most fragile early on is definitely terran. Terrans die to a single stalker and zealot running by the bunker every now and then. Not to talk about oracles and mothership cores...
I think zerg and protoss playing greedily are much safer than a terran playing greedily. That's why terrans look at the other races and jealously blame them for being too greedy.
The 8 hellbat 3 medevac 6 rine timing is brutal to hold for zerg unless you open roach.. this is a big meta-shift now essentially forcing the zerg to open with roaches.. this is not all in for Terran at all and can be macro'd out of (similar to many of the zerg early game options that are stupid). Even Taeja admits that this timing is kind of stupid (even tho the balance is closer now - this is accounting for a high percentage of the wins (Flash/Maru/Taeja games). Whether or not there is a good "counter" or standard play variant developed to hold this, it is a really stupid mechanism to balance the matchup.. macrogames are still imbalanced in favor of Zerg (mass banelings / muta / ling vs mmmm or mmm/hb) and now the early game is in favor of Terran (assuming they open this way). I play Terran at high masters NA mmr and Tvz is my worst matchup...I switched to this build and winrate has come up substantially.. I was against the patch when it was made and I'm equally if not more against it now.. all it has done is promote stupid gimmicks and timings for build order wins.. I don't care what anyone says there is no possible way to argue that this is more entertaining to watch or play than a macro game with heavy macro/micro/multitask intensive mechanics. The game was at a great place during DRG / Innovation series that "shocked the zergs" when DRG beat him down with flawless macro/micro/multitask (PRE MINE NERF). "Stale metagame" nonsense - that's like saying white should be nerfed in chess because he can always open e4. At least the game was playable and watchable on a standard level where the player who macro'd/mictro'd/multitasked the best won.. Tvp is bad enough with build order wins.. now we want Tvz to be the same way apparently.. this is not the direction that biggest hope for RTS should be going imo.
On June 19 2014 09:49 DomeGetta wrote: The 8 hellbat 3 medevac 6 rine timing is brutal to hold for zerg unless you open roach.. this is a big meta-shift now essentially forcing the zerg to open with roaches.. this is not all in for Terran at all and can be macro'd out of (similar to many of the zerg early game options that are stupid). Even Taeja admits that this timing is kind of stupid (even tho the balance is closer now - this is accounting for a high percentage of the wins (Flash/Maru/Taeja games). Whether or not there is a good "counter" or standard play variant developed to hold this, it is a really stupid mechanism to balance the matchup.. macrogames are still imbalanced in favor of Zerg (mass banelings / muta / ling vs mmmm or mmm/hb) and now the early game is in favor of Terran (assuming they open this way). I play Terran at high masters NA mmr and Tvz is my worst matchup...I switched to this build and winrate has come up substantially.. I was against the patch when it was made and I'm equally if not more against it now.. all it has done is promote stupid gimmicks and timings for build order wins.. I don't care what anyone says there is no possible way to argue that this is more entertaining to watch or play than a macro game with heavy macro/micro/multitask intensive mechanics. The game was at a great place during DRG / Innovation series that "shocked the zergs" when DRG beat him down with flawless macro/micro/multitask (PRE MINE NERF). "Stale metagame" nonsense - that's like saying white should be nerfed in chess because he can always open e4. At least the game was playable and watchable on a standard level where the player who macro'd/mictro'd/multitasked the best won.. Tvp is bad enough with build order wins.. now we want Tvz to be the same way apparently.. this is not the direction that biggest hope for RTS should be going imo.
Frankly I see nothing wrong with timing-based wins; they're a key part of what makes StarCraft. I felt like the game lost almost all of its tempo for Terran in TvZ until the hellbat change. The only thing I'm still sad about is how it's the only tempo play Terran currently has. Everything else is sit back, max out economy, max out army comp, and try to sneak drops past the muta flock. Super boring and not worth playing or watching.
Also to consider: Zerg is still figuring out what an ideal response to the timing would be. I think if the timing remains too good for months, then maybe it needs to be looked at, but for now let's just enjoy the better-balanced match up. I also wouldn't consider this a "build order win"; there's plenty of opportunity for Zerg to scout and respond. Some people have been saying heavy roach response can defend it, for example.
On June 19 2014 09:49 DomeGetta wrote: The 8 hellbat 3 medevac 6 rine timing is brutal to hold for zerg unless you open roach.. this is a big meta-shift now essentially forcing the zerg to open with roaches.. this is not all in for Terran at all and can be macro'd out of (similar to many of the zerg early game options that are stupid). Even Taeja admits that this timing is kind of stupid (even tho the balance is closer now - this is accounting for a high percentage of the wins (Flash/Maru/Taeja games). Whether or not there is a good "counter" or standard play variant developed to hold this, it is a really stupid mechanism to balance the matchup.. macrogames are still imbalanced in favor of Zerg (mass banelings / muta / ling vs mmmm or mmm/hb) and now the early game is in favor of Terran (assuming they open this way). I play Terran at high masters NA mmr and Tvz is my worst matchup...I switched to this build and winrate has come up substantially.. I was against the patch when it was made and I'm equally if not more against it now.. all it has done is promote stupid gimmicks and timings for build order wins.. I don't care what anyone says there is no possible way to argue that this is more entertaining to watch or play than a macro game with heavy macro/micro/multitask intensive mechanics. The game was at a great place during DRG / Innovation series that "shocked the zergs" when DRG beat him down with flawless macro/micro/multitask (PRE MINE NERF). "Stale metagame" nonsense - that's like saying white should be nerfed in chess because he can always open e4. At least the game was playable and watchable on a standard level where the player who macro'd/mictro'd/multitasked the best won.. Tvp is bad enough with build order wins.. now we want Tvz to be the same way apparently.. this is not the direction that biggest hope for RTS should be going imo.
So while zergs can do things like take a 3rd and then roach bane all in for an instant win, its not ok when terrans have a build with gg potential that they can do as well? You cannot do this build without sacrificing something that used to be considered standard, in many cases this means delayed upgrades. It is not an allin, but dont act like terran macro does not take a hit when going for this build. You seem to jump to an awful lot of conclusions regarding something that has only recently been introduced to top-level play. To think that zergs cannot and will not ever be able to adjust to this build based off scouting is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I also believe something needs to be done about late-game army compositions, but this patch is definitely a welcome change to a race that previously basically had two viable options (two-rax bunker rush or fast 3 cc).
As a zerg the timing is brutal to hold but I think it is great that Terran has this option.
Pretty much every ZvT if I didn't get proxy raxed I would just Roach - Bane all in and my Terran opponent would have 4 hellions and a 3rd CC because it was all they could do.
Metagame has diversified and that is a great thing.
Also Zerg and Terran need to continue hating protoss as is only right,
On June 19 2014 09:49 DomeGetta wrote: The 8 hellbat 3 medevac 6 rine timing is brutal to hold for zerg unless you open roach.. this is a big meta-shift now essentially forcing the zerg to open with roaches.. this is not all in for Terran at all and can be macro'd out of (similar to many of the zerg early game options that are stupid). Even Taeja admits that this timing is kind of stupid (even tho the balance is closer now - this is accounting for a high percentage of the wins (Flash/Maru/Taeja games). Whether or not there is a good "counter" or standard play variant developed to hold this, it is a really stupid mechanism to balance the matchup.. macrogames are still imbalanced in favor of Zerg (mass banelings / muta / ling vs mmmm or mmm/hb) and now the early game is in favor of Terran (assuming they open this way). I play Terran at high masters NA mmr and Tvz is my worst matchup...I switched to this build and winrate has come up substantially.. I was against the patch when it was made and I'm equally if not more against it now.. all it has done is promote stupid gimmicks and timings for build order wins.. I don't care what anyone says there is no possible way to argue that this is more entertaining to watch or play than a macro game with heavy macro/micro/multitask intensive mechanics. The game was at a great place during DRG / Innovation series that "shocked the zergs" when DRG beat him down with flawless macro/micro/multitask (PRE MINE NERF). "Stale metagame" nonsense - that's like saying white should be nerfed in chess because he can always open e4. At least the game was playable and watchable on a standard level where the player who macro'd/mictro'd/multitasked the best won.. Tvp is bad enough with build order wins.. now we want Tvz to be the same way apparently.. this is not the direction that biggest hope for RTS should be going imo.
So while zergs can do things like take a 3rd and then roach bane all in for an instant win, its not ok when terrans have a build with gg potential that they can do as well? You cannot do this build without sacrificing something that used to be considered standard, in many cases this means delayed upgrades. It is not an allin, but dont act like terran macro does not take a hit when going for this build. You seem to jump to an awful lot of conclusions regarding something that has only recently been introduced to top-level play. To think that zergs cannot and will not ever be able to adjust to this build based off scouting is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I also believe something needs to be done about late-game army compositions, but this patch is definitely a welcome change to a race that previously basically had two viable options (two-rax bunker rush or fast 3 cc).
Not really sure you read what I wrote.. Basically what you are saying is that because Zerg can do a number of stupid timings off 1 or 2 base that Terran should be able to also.. That's sort of like saying let's fix one stupid thing by adding another.. I never said the early game options for Zerg weren't dumb.. Also sort of funny to hear you say that the "dumbest thing you've heard in a while" came out of the mouth of the best Terran player alive at present..and nobody said it can't be held.. the point is that it forces them into a certain opening that puts them very much on the backfoot..Taeja exploited this to the full degree by following up game 2 vs. Jaedong with an identical opener but going int cloak etc.. I'm a Terran player not a Zerg player.. I don't want it to go back to being imba for Zerg but I also don't want the cure to be dropping hellbats at 8 minutes every game to do critical damage or lose in the late game... and as I stated previously - I didn't say it couldn't ever be figured out I just said it doesn't do anything to improve the metagame for me.. all in all it really just added a strong timing for a suffering race..which in my opinion is a step backwards. Undoing it and not changing anything else will make the matchup imba for Zerg again..leaving it this way makes the game less fun and challenging .. just my opinion tho.
On June 19 2014 11:18 KelsierSC wrote: As a zerg the timing is brutal to hold but I think it is great that Terran has this option.
Pretty much every ZvT if I didn't get proxy raxed I would just Roach - Bane all in and my Terran opponent would have 4 hellions and a 3rd CC because it was all they could do.
Metagame has diversified and that is a great thing.
Also Zerg and Terran need to continue hating protoss as is only right,
Well said in a very short amount of words; especially the last part about Protoss. Why do I see Protoss sitting back saying, "Excellent! This patch took the attention off Protoss...and how skilless and OP MSC is...I shall continue my 20 different all-ins and keep my ladder points...muahahah".
Allowed to be a little extreme, I would even hope that non-Korean players go extinct so that we can focus on Koreans when it comes to balance discussion. I don't care how the game is balanced at bronze league or at mediocre foreigner scene.
It's called focus for a reason.
And Id rather have the Korean scene die, than having a perfectly balanced game without foreigners.
On June 19 2014 09:49 DomeGetta wrote: The 8 hellbat 3 medevac 6 rine timing is brutal to hold for zerg unless you open roach.. this is a big meta-shift now essentially forcing the zerg to open with roaches.. this is not all in for Terran at all and can be macro'd out of (similar to many of the zerg early game options that are stupid). Even Taeja admits that this timing is kind of stupid (even tho the balance is closer now - this is accounting for a high percentage of the wins (Flash/Maru/Taeja games). Whether or not there is a good "counter" or standard play variant developed to hold this, it is a really stupid mechanism to balance the matchup.. macrogames are still imbalanced in favor of Zerg (mass banelings / muta / ling vs mmmm or mmm/hb) and now the early game is in favor of Terran (assuming they open this way). I play Terran at high masters NA mmr and Tvz is my worst matchup...I switched to this build and winrate has come up substantially.. I was against the patch when it was made and I'm equally if not more against it now.. all it has done is promote stupid gimmicks and timings for build order wins.. I don't care what anyone says there is no possible way to argue that this is more entertaining to watch or play than a macro game with heavy macro/micro/multitask intensive mechanics. The game was at a great place during DRG / Innovation series that "shocked the zergs" when DRG beat him down with flawless macro/micro/multitask (PRE MINE NERF). "Stale metagame" nonsense - that's like saying white should be nerfed in chess because he can always open e4. At least the game was playable and watchable on a standard level where the player who macro'd/mictro'd/multitasked the best won.. Tvp is bad enough with build order wins.. now we want Tvz to be the same way apparently.. this is not the direction that biggest hope for RTS should be going imo.
So while zergs can do things like take a 3rd and then roach bane all in for an instant win, its not ok when terrans have a build with gg potential that they can do as well? You cannot do this build without sacrificing something that used to be considered standard, in many cases this means delayed upgrades. It is not an allin, but dont act like terran macro does not take a hit when going for this build. You seem to jump to an awful lot of conclusions regarding something that has only recently been introduced to top-level play. To think that zergs cannot and will not ever be able to adjust to this build based off scouting is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I also believe something needs to be done about late-game army compositions, but this patch is definitely a welcome change to a race that previously basically had two viable options (two-rax bunker rush or fast 3 cc).
Not really sure you read what I wrote.. Basically what you are saying is that because Zerg can do a number of stupid timings off 1 or 2 base that Terran should be able to also.. That's sort of like saying let's fix one stupid thing by adding another.. I never said the early game options for Zerg weren't dumb.. Also sort of funny to hear you say that the "dumbest thing you've heard in a while" came out of the mouth of the best Terran player alive at present..and nobody said it can't be held.. the point is that it forces them into a certain opening that puts them very much on the backfoot..Taeja exploited this to the full degree by following up game 2 vs. Jaedong with an identical opener but going int cloak etc.. I'm a Terran player not a Zerg player.. I don't want it to go back to being imba for Zerg but I also don't want the cure to be dropping hellbats at 8 minutes every game to do critical damage or lose in the late game... and as I stated previously - I didn't say it couldn't ever be figured out I just said it doesn't do anything to improve the metagame for me.. all in all it really just added a strong timing for a suffering race..which in my opinion is a step backwards. Undoing it and not changing anything else will make the matchup imba for Zerg again..leaving it this way makes the game less fun and challenging .. just my opinion tho.
The problem with hellbats is they do the same damage as marauders vs non-lights, but in splash form, and for no gas. Then there's the 130 hp, the 1 armor point natural, and the bio+medivac regen tagging. How all-in is it to build up a mostly gasless army to do some timing aggression with while continuing to build OCs and macro behind the push? The moment a zerg sees this coming, their best and sometimes only option is to completely cut droning and build only army units to try to hold it off. In other words it's basically all-in only to defend yourself.
On June 19 2014 11:18 KelsierSC wrote: As a zerg the timing is brutal to hold but I think it is great that Terran has this option.
Pretty much every ZvT if I didn't get proxy raxed I would just Roach - Bane all in and my Terran opponent would have 4 hellions and a 3rd CC because it was all they could do.
Metagame has diversified and that is a great thing.
Also Zerg and Terran need to continue hating protoss as is only right,
I don't know if we can invoke predecessor games as a viable argument, but the difference is that in SC1, such rushes were "all-in" in that a player that attacks pushes themselves towards a very specific early game goal that requires cutting out macro, while the player that defends it can be damaged by it but still modify their game plan and build to compensate and stay relatively even economically to the "all-in" player. Both sides sacrifice something, and if both sides play well, the end result is a wash and the game continues. In SC2, two races that fail "all-ins" can continue into the mid or late game because of macroing being it, and staying on relative even terms as long as they do decent damage. One race (zerg) doesn't really have that luxury. If the all-in fails against T or P races for Z, that's it.
You also pointed out a really good problem. The Zerg all in works against Terrans that play greedy and have no army, and this is somehow unacceptable when the Terran isn't scouting constantly to see if such a thing is coming, or chooses to have 3 CCs and only 4 hellions because they believe Zerg won't attack due to the metagame of zerg more reliably being able to win by going for macro games.
I don't see how a Terran playing greedy and not scouting their opponent at all is considered broken when the real all-in from Zerg comes knocking.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
Spot on. Top level analysis right there.
Word, honestly I feel even this hellbat change isn't going to do much. If you think about it, Zerg basically has gotten so use to "I should be able to make 6 drones at a time constantly for the first 20 min" that they think its a right. I've seen so many proleague zergs, knowing the push is coming, and continuing to make tons of drones.
Zerg need to get less greedy, and honestly being less greedy is "standard", its just that until now, terran has been so terribad at getting any pressure onto zerg, the super-econ-greed has become "standard". Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not.
And once the hellbat push has been beaten, zerg is in a beautiful position. Hellbats arent doing jack shit to mass roach...
While I agree that Zerg needs to adapt, your quote "Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not." is a total BS which has no evidence in reality. Even if you meant to exaggerate. I have never seen a game where Z has 75 drones and T has 25 SCVs in macro games.
The truth is, T does have more or less equal (i.e. equally greedy) economy throughout the game, unless game progresses to the later stages. It's just that once Z's economy is up and running optimally, they have better production mechanism and recovery. So T and P ideally want to slow down that process instead of playing NR10. But it has not much to do with Z's greed and people like you who call Z players "greedy" in a pejorative sense need to get a grip. It's quite annoying because it has no bearings to actual games. (Has anyone ever seen 1:3 worker ratio in v. Z matchups?)
To add to this, I'd like to see the people who complain of Zerg greed because of producing only drones from larvae for the first 5-10 minutes of the game do something different and win. I'd like to see them produce high level play replays where they produced an equivalent amount of army units alongside drone production from 3-4 minutes on comparable to T or P, and end up winning the game. I want to see them basically play like a Terran or Protoss in terms of building up army and scvs or probes in a similar fashion and still be on even terms as far as upgrades, tech, and bases go (reminding them that Zerg actually need more bases to compete with P and T due to units that have a bad cost/power ratio compared to T or P units).
If they can produce replays where they consistently made army units alongside drones instead of frontloaded droning until the moment of needing army and then switching production and being equal (read: slightly or moderately ahead) in economy to T or P, I'd like to see those replays. I honestly wish it could work like that, but from pros to plats, it universally trends that Zerg must spend everything in drones unless they're building an army to defend or all-in early game. There used to be such as thing as aggressive early game Zerg back when people were bad, like 2011-2012. In this case aggressive means damaging pokes that aren't all-in. People have pushed macro and exponential army growth to the limits since then, which has significantly changed what the reactive race can do.
One of the things I think is interesting is the complaint that if people go for the hellbat push they'll be behind in upgrades. Why is that? Zerg and Protoss developed their game to the extent of having timings where they produce an army to fight while simultaneously having upgrades. Can Terran not spare one less hellbat to have a ridiculously higher damaging hellbat army when they go to push? If they do that, they can transition into MMM or Mech still rather easily, since tanks will still benefit from that upgrade.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
Spot on. Top level analysis right there.
Word, honestly I feel even this hellbat change isn't going to do much. If you think about it, Zerg basically has gotten so use to "I should be able to make 6 drones at a time constantly for the first 20 min" that they think its a right. I've seen so many proleague zergs, knowing the push is coming, and continuing to make tons of drones.
Zerg need to get less greedy, and honestly being less greedy is "standard", its just that until now, terran has been so terribad at getting any pressure onto zerg, the super-econ-greed has become "standard". Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not.
And once the hellbat push has been beaten, zerg is in a beautiful position. Hellbats arent doing jack shit to mass roach...
While I agree that Zerg needs to adapt, your quote "Building six drones constantly vs. 2 terran scvs is not "standard" mules or not." is a total BS which has no evidence in reality. Even if you meant to exaggerate. I have never seen a game where Z has 75 drones and T has 25 SCVs in macro games.
The truth is, T does have more or less equal (i.e. equally greedy) economy throughout the game, unless game progresses to the later stages. It's just that once Z's economy is up and running optimally, they have better production mechanism and recovery. So T and P ideally want to slow down that process instead of playing NR10. But it has not much to do with Z's greed and people like you who call Z players "greedy" in a pejorative sense need t o get a grip. It's quite annoying because it has no bearings to actual games. (Has anyone ever seen 1:3 worker ratio in v. Z matchups?)
Both zerg and protoss seem to be rather invurnerable to any attemp to slow their economy down from terran. If you go for multiple reapers, you force some lings and perhaps kill one or two drones, but you delay everything of your own even more. Remember in WoL when the good terrans microed, picked of sentries and ran away while getting three bases agains a toss that barely held on to two? Seen any games lately where protoss goes for earlier thirds than the terran?
The race that seems the most fragile early on is definitely terran. Terrans die to a single stalker and zealot running by the bunker every now and then. Not to talk about oracles and mothership cores...
I think zerg and protoss playing greedily are much safer than a terran playing greedily. That's why terrans look at the other races and jealously blame them for being too greedy.
Killing a few drones and forcing lings is actually a pretty big economic setback for Zerg, due to how exponential economic growth works in this game. Anyone can test the theory of economic growth themselves in game rather easily by killing off a drone at the game start and then going purely macro to see where they end up and comparing that to a game where they had all 6 drones from the beginning of the game.
Things add up.
On June 18 2014 08:36 ypslala wrote: what? widow mine is still too strong imo. ridiculous strong. thank god Blizzard isn't listening to twitch chat opinions.
The best widow mine users use them like spider mines from SC1; pepper them around the map in random spots a zerg army has to cross. Even if you lose a widow mine, unless they went burrow + roaches for the regen, the zerg is going to either flat out lose a lot of units or be HP attritioned. Nothing more frustrating than a Terran player that puts widow mines everywhere you have to walk while also using sacrificial groups of stim marine/marauder to kill expansions as their main army sits comfortably in a safe, well organized defensive posture between their base and yours, or goes on the offensive, etc.
On June 17 2014 21:30 Enigmasc wrote: tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT. right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing)
You answer your problem with your first paragraph. Terran struggles when Z can mass 25 mutas. Zerg struggles when T can mass 20 ravens.
The difference is pretty neat though. The HB push force the zerg to be less greedy, hence he cannot make his huge muta ball this early, leaving the T to compet in a macro game. Ravens are good when you have 20 of them, but it's almost impossible to mass them in a realistic scenario. On a big number of maps, taking a 4th is really hard, and if the T manage to campe of 4 bases for 30min, the Z will have covered the map for a long time. There are pretty good respond to ravens compared to mutas too. One good fungal is game lose, ultras-queens are really good against mass ravens too. The terran has like only one shoot at winning and if the zerg send waves after waves on him, he will break because ravens will eventually run out of energy and the terran just cannot remax. Another good answer is going heavy on vipers, my heavy, I mean around 20. At each encounter, you will lose around 3, max for vipers but you will garantee 20 kills with grabs. Then you reprod the viper lost, remax on energy, and go again. This is in my opinion the most BS I ever encounted because I feel there is no answer to that except for ghosts who are weak as fuck when you go mech. You just cannot trade efficiently against that, and you are on what, 5 bases max and the Z is on 16 gaz. There is also the 15 SH and 50 mutas remax that is deadly. You attack at the same time as your Ss on creep with your 50 mutas splitted, he will be force to lauch a dozen of PDD that will melt in an instant, HSM will do FF on your army, and if you manage to reboot that, 50 others mutas are here to finish you.
As a Zerg player I have honestly found that in late game roaches are best to take care of PDDs. If you got the armor and weapon upgrades as a player should be doing, PDDs do 4 damage against roaches while taking a lot. Since you have to fight fire with fire, and PDDs are free, I get burrow to help keep the roaches "free" via regen. It's not perfect, but it can deal with the PDD issue.
Mutas on the other hand, I have no idea why anti-air splash air units like Devourer, corsair, valk, were completely taken out. Sky Protoss is sickeningly OP against Zerg and Terran could use valks against muta balls. Or just give ravens irradiate back in addition to HSM and PDD. An SC2 version of irradiate might run something along the lines of doing 2-4 damage a tick so that it doesn't work so well vs higher armor units, but is deadly to muta balls, keep it from being OP against general Zerg but useful in necessary applications. I envision it as something that ignores armor upgrades, but not natural armor, either due to a check mechanic in the game or due to it being a cheap upgradeable for it's damage potential over the course of the game. Roach, corruptor, ultra, brood lord, SH, all would be taking half damage compared to a muta ball, so it's not a natural counter to those units, and so on.
EPT
