On June 18 2014 07:12 DinoMight wrote: I feel like Muta are really good against mass Raven. MASS muta that is. If he Seekers you just pick out the few ones and fly them into his slow Raven ball. Or you just fly away.
good terrans don't randomly spam seekers on mutas, turrets are the bigger threat. also, when you have 30+ muta it's actually harder to seeker suicide than when you have ~15-20 because mutas clump a lot and it's very difficult to select the right one(s). also, good terrans have +3 vikings with their ravens which make it much harder to poke in and out with muta flocks
Yeah, PDD + vikings is way more solid against mutas than seeker missile, especially with a thor or two for ground support.
The problem with hellbat pushes is that its supposed to be a commited push, but its actually not. Its just like those blink timing when protoss could expand behind and be in good shape IF the terran gets a good defense and holds the blink stalkers. It usually goes like this: 1 - Zerg hopes to defend the hellbat push with queen lings and slow banes (and no static D) - you must outplay terran to take no big damage, if you fail you die, if you suceed its a small advantage that tends to last. 2 - Zerg commits to defense with roaches and sucesfully holds, then transitions to bane muta - zerg got a dinamic disadvantage since they have bad economy and tech to hold the first bio pushes, z must outplay terran for a timing window to get even. 3 - Zerg goes for roach tech - zerg must do damage in a counter timing push, if z does small damage, then z is behind since roach tech trades bad with mid/late game bio and is terrible at holding drops. The hellbat push is too strong to be called balanced since the only safe way to hold is worse for zerg than for terran even if zerg takes no econ damage. While the rest of the matchup is slightly zerg favoured specially in big maps. So overall the matchup is quite balanced but in a messed up way.
Yeah, i always say hellbat change is a bad change cause it just increased the T winrate cause of cheese while on standartd game it changes nothing. Considering TvZ is historically the most interesting MU to watch and play, watching zerg killed on early game (his weakess moment )is not very interesting. I think wm was too strong but maybe the nerf was too huge too.
The hellbat change is fine - if Zerg sees it coming all they have to do is mass roach, fend it off and then counter attack with nydus for a free win. Terran's infrastructure is really weak behind the push and they can't hold a counter. The only reason the push looks strong is that zergs are trying to hold it whilst being as greedy as possible.
On June 18 2014 17:06 Goofinator wrote: The hellbat change is fine - if Zerg sees it coming all they have to do is mass roach, fend it off and then counter attack with nydus for a free win. Terran's infrastructure is really weak behind the push and they can't hold a counter. The only reason the push looks strong is that zergs are trying to hold it whilst being as greedy as possible.
Maybe in gold xD.
Anyway hellbat change doesn't look good. But if Z openings adapt by being little more safe, the terrans will stop doing those pushes as often (though some might do it anyway and game will be more diverse). It will work out pretty well for the matchup, little boost in terran's early game and more diversity. Hellbat is kinda stupid unit, but the threat alone could be good.
On June 18 2014 13:38 Superbanana wrote: The problem with hellbat pushes is that its supposed to be a commited push, but its actually not. Its just like those blink timing when protoss could expand behind and be in good shape IF the terran gets a good defense and holds the blink stalkers. It usually goes like this: 1 - Zerg hopes to defend the hellbat push with queen lings and slow banes (and no static D) - you must outplay terran to take no big damage, if you fail you die, if you suceed its a small advantage that tends to last. 2 - Zerg commits to defense with roaches and sucesfully holds, then transitions to bane muta - zerg got a dinamic disadvantage since they have bad economy and tech to hold the first bio pushes, z must outplay terran for a timing window to get even. 3 - Zerg goes for roach tech - zerg must do damage in a counter timing push, if z does small damage, then z is behind since roach tech trades bad with mid/late game bio and is terrible at holding drops. The hellbat push is too strong to be called balanced since the only safe way to hold is worse for zerg than for terran even if zerg takes no econ damage. While the rest of the matchup is slightly zerg favoured specially in big maps. So overall the matchup is quite balanced but in a messed up way.
Wrong. Ive actually tried the hellbat push the first week after the patch. i didnt won a single game whit the push. 4-5 queens hold off while roaches are out. and you are faar behind. ive stopped using it.. Solid macro play whit 3-3 and hope he dont make mutas is the best way for terran to win
I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
I like the hellbat change. Everything that switches terran away from boring op mmm only play (what we are condemned to watch since 2010 in every terran matchup) is a good thing.
4-6 roaches at the time when the push hits and after that 6-10 if it continues, is enough to deal almost with infinite hellbats. Considering the fact that 1 roach is of the same value as 1 baneling + 1 zergling it is also not a big investment for the zerg at all.
The only bad thing about this again is that terran is the maker and zerg has to perfectly react or probably die straight away, combined with the fact that terran again takes almost nothing at risk. The ability to pick up and boost away at any time allows the terran to create a big mess and really don't commit any of his units if the zerg hasn't prepared perfectly. But I see the reasons for this as well in the general meta game and the follow up bio push of the terran that is then undefeatable anymore and lets zergs just instant GG if they lose a few too many drones/miningtime.
Contrary to this the zerg can do whatever he wants to the terran. The bigger the damage the higher the commitment of the zerg so that situations are quite common where zerg kills all scvs of the terran (or almost all) and the terran with 3 oc is still on par with or ahead of the zerg.
Overall the hellbat change is a great thing that increases the variety of builds in the matchup, I really love it. It furthermore reveals the imbalanced race mechanics tho that are based on op bio+medivac play as the backbone of the terran gameplay and that zergs are being able to overpower terrans in the lategame with overmins and high amounts of larva. Would like to see this changing with the next add-on.
On June 18 2014 22:26 LSN wrote: I like the hellbat change. Everything that switched terran away from boring op mmm only play (what we are condemned to watch since 2010 in every terran matchup) is a good thing.
4-6 roaches at the time when the push hits and after that 6-10 if it continues, is enough to deal almost with infinite hellbats. Considering the fact that 1 roach is of the same value as 1 baneling + 1 zergling it is also not a big investment for the zerg at all.
The only bad thing about this again is that terran is the maker and zerg has to perfectly react probably die straight away, combined with the fact that terran again takes almost nothing at risk. The ability to pick up and boost away at any time allows the terran to create a big mess and really don't commit any of his units if the zerg hasn't prepared perfectly. But I see the reasons for this as well in the general meta game and the follow up bio push of the terran that is then undefeatable anymore and lets zergs just instant GG if they lose a few too many drones/miningtime.
Contrary to this the zerg can do whatever he wants to the terran. The bigger the damage the higher the commitment of the zerg so that situations are quite common where zerg kills all scvs of the terran (or almost all) and the terran with 3 oc is still on par with or ahead of the zerg.
Overall the hellbat change is a great thing that increases the variety of builds in the matchup, I really love it. It furthermore reveals the imbalanced race mechanics tho that are based on op bio+medivac play as the backbone of the terran gameplay and that zergs being able to overpower terrans in the lategame with overmins and high amounts of larva. Would like to see this changing with the next add-on.
On June 18 2014 22:26 LSN wrote: I like the hellbat change. Everything that switched terran away from boring op mmm only play (what we are condemned to watch since 2010 in every terran matchup) is a good thing.
4-6 roaches at the time when the push hits and after that 6-10 if it continues, is enough to deal almost with infinite hellbats. Considering the fact that 1 roach is of the same value as 1 baneling + 1 zergling it is also not a big investment for the zerg at all.
The only bad thing about this again is that terran is the maker and zerg has to perfectly react probably die straight away, combined with the fact that terran again takes almost nothing at risk. The ability to pick up and boost away at any time allows the terran to create a big mess and really don't commit any of his units if the zerg hasn't prepared perfectly. But I see the reasons for this as well in the general meta game and the follow up bio push of the terran that is then undefeatable anymore and lets zergs just instant GG if they lose a few too many drones/miningtime.
Contrary to this the zerg can do whatever he wants to the terran. The bigger the damage the higher the commitment of the zerg so that situations are quite common where zerg kills all scvs of the terran (or almost all) and the terran with 3 oc is still on par with or ahead of the zerg.
Overall the hellbat change is a great thing that increases the variety of builds in the matchup, I really love it. It furthermore reveals the imbalanced race mechanics tho that are based on op bio+medivac play as the backbone of the terran gameplay and that zergs being able to overpower terrans in the lategame with overmins and high amounts of larva. Would like to see this changing with the next add-on.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
What if terran counters nydus with workers?
you proceed with the "regret you didn't get drop tech" strategy
On June 18 2014 22:26 LSN wrote: I like the hellbat change. Everything that switched terran away from boring op mmm only play (what we are condemned to watch since 2010 in every terran matchup) is a good thing.
4-6 roaches at the time when the push hits and after that 6-10 if it continues, is enough to deal almost with infinite hellbats. Considering the fact that 1 roach is of the same value as 1 baneling + 1 zergling it is also not a big investment for the zerg at all.
The only bad thing about this again is that terran is the maker and zerg has to perfectly react probably die straight away, combined with the fact that terran again takes almost nothing at risk. The ability to pick up and boost away at any time allows the terran to create a big mess and really don't commit any of his units if the zerg hasn't prepared perfectly. But I see the reasons for this as well in the general meta game and the follow up bio push of the terran that is then undefeatable anymore and lets zergs just instant GG if they lose a few too many drones/miningtime.
Contrary to this the zerg can do whatever he wants to the terran. The bigger the damage the higher the commitment of the zerg so that situations are quite common where zerg kills all scvs of the terran (or almost all) and the terran with 3 oc is still on par with or ahead of the zerg.
Overall the hellbat change is a great thing that increases the variety of builds in the matchup, I really love it. It furthermore reveals the imbalanced race mechanics tho that are based on op bio+medivac play as the backbone of the terran gameplay and that zergs being able to overpower terrans in the lategame with overmins and high amounts of larva. Would like to see this changing with the next add-on.
you know very well this will get you warned/temp banned. If you got a point to raise, then say it out.
I might be. I was just astonished by what he just wrote, im not sure i actually want to answer something like that since it will just go into a pointless argument where neither can prove the other one wrong. So i just did that because i didnt figure anything other to say.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
What if terran counters nydus with workers?
This is so sad but so true. When I see a warp prism warping an entire army inside a zerg base, with sentries forcefielding his ramp (wich is just a game ending move) I really hope nydus worm will be buff sooner or later. Seriously, the worm make a sound alert but yet, you can kill it just using workers. Nydus is a very entertaining unit and i d love to see it more often in tournaments but i think it needs AT LEAST to increase it health points or armor to be viable, and not just something to make you win earlier a game you already won ...
On June 18 2014 17:06 Goofinator wrote: The hellbat change is fine - if Zerg sees it coming all they have to do is mass roach, fend it off and then counter attack with nydus for a free win. Terran's infrastructure is really weak behind the push and they can't hold a counter. The only reason the push looks strong is that zergs are trying to hold it whilst being as greedy as possible.
2 base mass roach/nydus is all-in. Also, when do you get the nydus? When you notice the hellbat attack, it's not like you will have the money to go lair+nydus network while still pumping out units.
Sounds nice, but I doubt that is a viable response.
I haven't been watching many pro games recently, what is this hellbat push people are talking about? Is it an actual build or just hellbats in general?
On June 19 2014 00:08 MstrJinbo wrote: I haven't been watching many pro games recently, what is this hellbat push people are talking about? Is it an actual build or just hellbats in general?
It's a variety of builds in which the Terran keeps his initial hellions alive and often makes more than 6 to begin with, builds an armory and transforms them at the front of the zerg base. Usually with medivac, marine, reaper or banshee support.
It basically makes it impossible to rely on mass speedlings for early game defense.
On June 18 2014 21:13 Goofinator wrote: I've seen it work on pro streams so your "maybe in gold" comment is rather ignorant. Terran infrastructure is simply screwed if they go for this push - it is win the game right there, do critical amounts of damage so they can catch up or lose. The only reason zergs lose to it is because they don't scout it and play greedy or underestimate the amount of defence they need.
On June 19 2014 00:08 MstrJinbo wrote: I haven't been watching many pro games recently, what is this hellbat push people are talking about? Is it an actual build or just hellbats in general?
There's a build that gets like 6-8 hellbats with medivacs over to the Zerg base pretty quickly and just rapes everything.
Taeja has a really specific timing that he hits, just watch Taeja vs. jaedong G1 from Dreamhack (he messed it up a little I think but it doesn't matter at all).
It's pretty allin from the Terran I think. Zergs are just being too greedy agaisnt it.
EPT
