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On June 17 2014 05:28 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:11 Waise wrote:On June 17 2014 04:20 sM.Zik wrote:On June 17 2014 04:01 DinoMight wrote:
Lol that Hellbat opener TvZ.
Jaedong looked Platinum League that game. This is a very silly thing to say. The only way to look like a Platinum is to play against a Platinum in the first place. disagree. jaedong got completely wrecked on a level you don't typically expect to see a professional player get wrecked by something he sees coming. it's a circumstance of the new meta for zerg right now, everyone is trying to figure out how to defend it without sacrificing too much economy. so i think he definitely looked like a ladder nobody in that particular game from a viewer's perspective however, i don't think top zergs looking shitty reflects anything about the balance of the build; it's just something that hasn't been figured out. remember after the speed buff when everyone was saying oracle play in pvt is absolutely gamebreaking and that it's impossible to play the matchup without losing 10+ scvs? (sure, there are still kinda issues with the oracle arguably, but you can't deny the overreaction at the time) It has alot to do with the new hellbats. Previously zerg could drone to 80 drones farely safely and be slighty ahead. When going safety roaches, you end up being behind in eco which you cant recover with engages. Theres a reason why all zergs are going all ins in tournaments.
"Slighty ahead". By slighty you mean being able to make 60 banelings at 14min and 1A the terran ?
Zerg don't always allins in tournaments. JD always allin, Hyun always plays roach bane too.
It's just easier but terran will get used to it and zergs will be forced to play macro again.
btw, according to Aligulac, Zerg is still ahead in winrate vs T. So no, nothing is imbalanced in favor of T right now.
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Haha. Got the conversation going 
Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol.
So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build.
Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn.
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On June 17 2014 05:44 DinoMight wrote:Haha. Got the conversation going Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol. So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build. Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn.
Actually you could defend with queens only, and if they are dropped, with one spore in your mineral lines. But it's cutting corner and if you lose because of it you deserve to lose.
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On June 17 2014 05:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:44 DinoMight wrote:Haha. Got the conversation going Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol. So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build. Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn. Actually you could defend with queens only, and if they are dropped, with one spore in your mineral lines. But it's cutting corner and if you lose because of it you deserve to lose.
JD lost with 5 queens and a spore I think, today. Like it wasn't close.
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On June 17 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:45 Faust852 wrote:On June 17 2014 05:44 DinoMight wrote:Haha. Got the conversation going Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol. So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build. Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn. Actually you could defend with queens only, and if they are dropped, with one spore in your mineral lines. But it's cutting corner and if you lose because of it you deserve to lose. JD lost with 5 queens and a spore I think, today. Like it wasn't close.
tbh I didn't see the 1st game so I can really talk about it. But having only 5 queens against HB is being terribly greedy
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On June 17 2014 05:28 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:11 Waise wrote:On June 17 2014 04:20 sM.Zik wrote:On June 17 2014 04:01 DinoMight wrote:
Lol that Hellbat opener TvZ.
Jaedong looked Platinum League that game. This is a very silly thing to say. The only way to look like a Platinum is to play against a Platinum in the first place. disagree. jaedong got completely wrecked on a level you don't typically expect to see a professional player get wrecked by something he sees coming. it's a circumstance of the new meta for zerg right now, everyone is trying to figure out how to defend it without sacrificing too much economy. so i think he definitely looked like a ladder nobody in that particular game from a viewer's perspective however, i don't think top zergs looking shitty reflects anything about the balance of the build; it's just something that hasn't been figured out. remember after the speed buff when everyone was saying oracle play in pvt is absolutely gamebreaking and that it's impossible to play the matchup without losing 10+ scvs? (sure, there are still kinda issues with the oracle arguably, but you can't deny the overreaction at the time) It has alot to do with the new hellbats. Previously zerg could drone to 80 drones farely safely and be slighty ahead. When going safety roaches, you end up being behind in eco which you cant recover with engages. Theres a reason why all zergs are going all ins in tournaments.
I'm raising by 10 to 90 drones!
Oh, whatever, make it 100!
seriously guys, could you stop throwing out random numbers. 80 drones is something you achieve after holding reaper, hellion, hellion/reaper, hellion/banshee pressure, holding a possible first bio push or making sure no cheese is coming. Off the back of playing very predictable yourself with minimum gas or aggressive investments.
Going safety roaches with a delayed speed can be done of off a gasless opening without falling behind.
Putting down a roach warren if you cannot make sure there is no such aggression coming can be done without falling behind in a real gamechaning way - and with proper drone/queen/zergling micro you can buy the time you need to minimize any losses of such a quite commited push.
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I just dont understand why pros are being so greedy against this. Surely 1 Roach Warren cant set you back that far if they aren't going 3CC. And then if the Hellbats show up you can buy enough time for a round of roaches simply running your drones in circles...
Soo greeeedy...
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Greedy, Stubborn JD. Fast 3rd with just ling support?? Zerg's like JD are the reason they made this patch. No longer can you max out the 12 minute mark with just queen defense. Sorry, JD the a-move era with an untouched Zerg economy is over; you might actually have to make units now.
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On June 17 2014 06:17 DinoMight wrote:
I just dont understand why pros are being so greedy against this. Surely 1 Roach Warren cant set you back that far if they aren't going 3CC. And then if the Hellbats show up you can buy enough time for a round of roaches simply running your drones in circles...
Soo greeeedy...
I only caught the JD vs Taeja game on waystation. The map is too long to scout with an OL, too long to skip zergling speed without risking to play against insane greed (like bombers aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-build). Openings in these kind of positions become very random.
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On June 17 2014 05:44 DinoMight wrote:Haha. Got the conversation going Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol. So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build. Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn.
Bingo. Look at Maru vs. Soulkey, Maru played really well, but Soulkey obviously had no idea how to deal with his new compositions. That is something that is figured out over time. Whatever advantage Terran gained from Hellbat buff is certainly smaller than it appears to be now. That's true of any form of aggression.
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On June 17 2014 08:09 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:44 DinoMight wrote:Haha. Got the conversation going Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol. So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build. Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn. Bingo. Look at Maru vs. Soulkey, Maru played really well, but Soulkey obviously had no idea how to deal with his new compositions. That is something that is figured out over time. Whatever advantage Terran gained from Hellbat buff is certainly smaller than it appears to be now. That's true of any form of aggression.
"That's true of any form of aggression."
Haha now say that for blink stalker / mass muta lol
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United States7483 Posts
On June 17 2014 05:39 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:28 Rainmansc wrote:On June 17 2014 05:11 Waise wrote:On June 17 2014 04:20 sM.Zik wrote:On June 17 2014 04:01 DinoMight wrote:
Lol that Hellbat opener TvZ.
Jaedong looked Platinum League that game. This is a very silly thing to say. The only way to look like a Platinum is to play against a Platinum in the first place. disagree. jaedong got completely wrecked on a level you don't typically expect to see a professional player get wrecked by something he sees coming. it's a circumstance of the new meta for zerg right now, everyone is trying to figure out how to defend it without sacrificing too much economy. so i think he definitely looked like a ladder nobody in that particular game from a viewer's perspective however, i don't think top zergs looking shitty reflects anything about the balance of the build; it's just something that hasn't been figured out. remember after the speed buff when everyone was saying oracle play in pvt is absolutely gamebreaking and that it's impossible to play the matchup without losing 10+ scvs? (sure, there are still kinda issues with the oracle arguably, but you can't deny the overreaction at the time) It has alot to do with the new hellbats. Previously zerg could drone to 80 drones farely safely and be slighty ahead. When going safety roaches, you end up being behind in eco which you cant recover with engages. Theres a reason why all zergs are going all ins in tournaments. "Slighty ahead". By slighty you mean being able to make 60 banelings at 14min and 1A the terran ? Zerg don't always allins in tournaments. JD always allin, Hyun always plays roach bane too. It's just easier but terran will get used to it and zergs will be forced to play macro again. btw, according to Aligulac, Zerg is still ahead in winrate vs T. So no, nothing is imbalanced in favor of T right now.
Everytime there is a patch, the units getting buffed put that race in the aggressor position, and it takes a while for the defender to figure out how to defend efficiently and correctly. So for the next few tournaments, all-ins become popular because people haven't had time to puzzle out a viable defense yet. That's not an indicator of balance, in either direction.
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On June 17 2014 06:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 06:17 DinoMight wrote:
I just dont understand why pros are being so greedy against this. Surely 1 Roach Warren cant set you back that far if they aren't going 3CC. And then if the Hellbats show up you can buy enough time for a round of roaches simply running your drones in circles...
Soo greeeedy... I only caught the JD vs Taeja game on waystation. The map is too long to scout with an OL, too long to skip zergling speed without risking to play against insane greed (like bombers aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-build). Openings in these kind of positions become very random.
Then just get 6min ovy speed and scout or go blind roach warrent and make roaches in case. He was just very greedy.
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TaeJa is totally fucking imba. Please nerf him Blizz, this is mad ridic.
Go go LiquidTaeJa! Congrats.
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On June 17 2014 06:17 DinoMight wrote:
I just dont understand why pros are being so greedy against this. Surely 1 Roach Warren cant set you back that far if they aren't going 3CC. And then if the Hellbats show up you can buy enough time for a round of roaches simply running your drones in circles...
Soo greeeedy...
I play zerg, and I'd like to be able to run with the option of going aggressive or for some early game tech, but tech or aggression for zerg is all in through early game. If you don't do damage or achieve something, you have automatically lost. Zerg pros typically say you should be up by one base at least, but honestly, you should be up by as many bases as you can get because even roaches are gas hogs.
You should play zerg at a high level, and you'll find that in order to reach a certain point you have to cut corners and cut tech you're not going to use immediately. I mean protoss and terran have to do the same thing. You don't see them going 4 minute robo or tanks even though it's possible. To do that they'd have to cut economy boosting and be solely about production.
Zerg has to be ahead in economy producing bases and drones, which means money spent on drones, on those buildings, and on replacement drones.
Roaches aren't that great unless you have them pre-positioned without speed. Their DPS is pretty low as a single unit. Spines are a much better way of dealing with a hellion runby or hellbat drop. They're also not breaking your tech progression into something you didn't plan to use 5 minutes later.
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On June 17 2014 05:51 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:45 Faust852 wrote:On June 17 2014 05:44 DinoMight wrote:Haha. Got the conversation going Actually it doesn't look that imbalanced, but the one thing that pros don't seem to be getting is that you cannot defend this with lings and queens :/ You need some spore/spine/roach/baneling something... else lol. So I think itwill take a time to find an economic build that can deal with this strong build. Sad about Jaedong, but he was really stubborn. Actually you could defend with queens only, and if they are dropped, with one spore in your mineral lines. But it's cutting corner and if you lose because of it you deserve to lose. JD lost with 5 queens and a spore I think, today. Like it wasn't close.
Yeah, he dealt with it poorly. JD also displayed very sub-par control, clumping his drones and letting his lings attack in single file while his queens target the hellbats. If JD saw how Effort played vs Maru, targeting down the exposed medivacs is the key to stopping the push, since medivacs negate all the damage done by the queens, which makes the attack redundant until they're dead.
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tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch
i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame
but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv
its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT.
right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing)
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On June 17 2014 21:30 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch
i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame
but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv
its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT.
right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing)
I completely agree with this.
Pdd is to good in high numbers.
Auto turrets could be changed to something more fun aswell.
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On June 17 2014 21:30 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch
i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame
but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv
its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT.
right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing)
You answer your problem with your first paragraph.
Terran struggles when Z can mass 25 mutas.
Zerg struggles when T can mass 20 ravens.
The difference is pretty neat though. The HB push force the zerg to be less greedy, hence he cannot make his huge muta ball this early, leaving the T to compet in a macro game.
Ravens are good when you have 20 of them, but it's almost impossible to mass them in a realistic scenario. On a big number of maps, taking a 4th is really hard, and if the T manage to campe of 4 bases for 30min, the Z will have covered the map for a long time. There are pretty good respond to ravens compared to mutas too. One good fungal is game lose, ultras-queens are really good against mass ravens too. The terran has like only one shoot at winning and if the zerg send waves after waves on him, he will break because ravens will eventually run out of energy and the terran just cannot remax.
Another good answer is going heavy on vipers, my heavy, I mean around 20. At each encounter, you will lose around 3, max for vipers but you will garantee 20 kills with grabs. Then you reprod the viper lost, remax on energy, and go again. This is in my opinion the most BS I ever encounted because I feel there is no answer to that except for ghosts who are weak as fuck when you go mech. You just cannot trade efficiently against that, and you are on what, 5 bases max and the Z is on 16 gaz.
There is also the 15 SH and 50 mutas remax that is deadly. You attack at the same time as your Ss on creep with your 50 mutas splitted, he will be force to lauch a dozen of PDD that will melt in an instant, HSM will do FF on your army, and if you manage to reboot that, 50 others mutas are here to finish you.
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On June 17 2014 05:28 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 05:11 Waise wrote:On June 17 2014 04:20 sM.Zik wrote:On June 17 2014 04:01 DinoMight wrote:
Lol that Hellbat opener TvZ.
Jaedong looked Platinum League that game. This is a very silly thing to say. The only way to look like a Platinum is to play against a Platinum in the first place. disagree. jaedong got completely wrecked on a level you don't typically expect to see a professional player get wrecked by something he sees coming. it's a circumstance of the new meta for zerg right now, everyone is trying to figure out how to defend it without sacrificing too much economy. so i think he definitely looked like a ladder nobody in that particular game from a viewer's perspective however, i don't think top zergs looking shitty reflects anything about the balance of the build; it's just something that hasn't been figured out. remember after the speed buff when everyone was saying oracle play in pvt is absolutely gamebreaking and that it's impossible to play the matchup without losing 10+ scvs? (sure, there are still kinda issues with the oracle arguably, but you can't deny the overreaction at the time) It has alot to do with the new hellbats. Previously zerg could drone to 80 drones farely safely and be slighty ahead. When going safety roaches, you end up being behind in eco which you cant recover with engages. Theres a reason why all zergs are going all ins in tournaments.
i don't think you read my post. "it has to do with the new hellbats" is exactly what i just said.
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EPT
