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On June 13 2014 16:59 Samx wrote:
@Meavis
First thing. 3 Nexus zealot stalker MSC, 1 gate will not survive terran push. Die outright. Just wait out the cannon.
'bunkers are awfull, they only add a bit of hp to your defense for 100minerals, but no actual damage and will not prevent any bust, especialy when theres immortals and the bunker melts in a second, the main strength of terran bio force is its ability to kite, and a bunker is stationary.'
What is the counter to immortal? Yes marines. 400 hit points is a little? And you can repair them! An Archon plus shield only has 360. Think about it, you spend 200 minerals to build 2 bunkers, you are effectively forcing the protoss to build 2/3 immortals which cost 250 minerals and 100 gas each. And besides when the protoss can amass 3-4 immortals, its not early aggression.
"a ling runby or mass zealot warp in can go unmicro'd and do shit tons of damage because of the stats on these units, a MM drop on the other hand has to be babbysitted hard and is less effective in clearing anything fast, which makes your earlier argument laughable"
Zealots warp ins do tons of damage because the terran did not micro his scvs away. Really do not understand how anyone can argue that MM drop deals less damage than Zealots for similar supply.
About the fallacy that Terran needs micro and the propaganda about this. Often you hear casters going ballistics about marine splits micro. I think its even harder to split the banelings when the zerg is attacking into the marines. Mutas have to come in after the zerglings A-move, to target medivacs, and to split the banelings. There's tons more micro for zergs for that engagement. Or stutter-stepping for bio army. Lol, even a silver leaguer can stutter step. Too much hype.
3 nexus 1 gate? Thats such a niche build that rarely comes up, only if the Terran is being greedy. Any skilled protoss knows that in most cases a fast 3rd is nearly impossible against Terran if they are putting on any pressure.
Bunkers ARE awful. They deal NO damage and the additional HP is insignificant when they have 20 stalkers on top of you. Your proposed counter isn't even a viable or worthwhile strategy when you can just walk/blink on a bunker and kill it in 2 volleys if theres no repair (which also costs minerals).
Zealots do tons of damage because they are tanky and deal damage fast. Terran can't micro every unit in the game. Z zealot run by is purposefully planned during combat since the Zealots take no micro and the Terran army needs to be micro's or they die, they don't have time to micro SCVs.
And your last point... obviously you are a troll and/or have no idea what you are talking about....
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I like that you can't abduct Ultras and Broodlords from your opponent, but you should be able to abduct every own unit.
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Blizzrard forumlations tend to be over-neutral. Every mentioning of things that could offend the players of one race due to naming imbalances is being avoided at all costs. This is normal marketing propaganda and the reason for rather buffing than nerfing as well. It really doesn't matter what kind of reasoning in these blueposts is given for the regen changes as it is solely meant to keep things as much calm as possible. Muta regen was kinda bad for zvz and zvp but necessary for zvt.
Been reading the other posts but cant write more right now.
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On June 13 2014 18:40 Enigmasc wrote:
a lot of people are really starting to spout garbage in this thread now
for one LSN i dont know how you can say an early drop isnt a commitment, standard play only gets medivac out by around 10-11 mins by which point the protoss usually has more than enough to defend against something as small as 8 marines in a medivac, and if the Terran goes a gas first build to rush out hellions/mines for a quick drop its already a commitment into earlier tech and a much delayed 3rd CC or production
the reason a lot of people are disagreeing with you LSN is because your asserting that marines are over-powered, when a better way to make your point would be to phrase it is that the strength/versatility of the marine is what necessitates such hard counters such as banes and colossus. opening your argument by claiming its OP and then using illogical arguments to follow it up isn't going to generate a constructive response.
the idea drops need to be babysat to do damage is utter rubbish for one, you merely have to unload the marines, box them and stim then leave it to control your main frontal push where you actually need to micro/ divert your attention
the ammount of damage done with the drop mainly coming from how well the opponent responds not how well you control it
similarly a ling runby or zealot warpin doesnt require insane micro but wont do catastrophic damage unless the terran messes up or is slow to respond ( barring truly massive warpins or ling runbys that overwhelm the rally/ production) but in those cases the harras is a significant investment
@thezzy
the main reason mutas got buffed was because of mines, as prior to the regen your muta flock would essentially become useless for harras if it ate as little as 1 or 2 mine shots, and as already said they wanted to strengthen harras in hots so that the game wasnt deathball vs deathball etc etc
tbh i wish the widow mine hadnt been hit so hard in the shins though, whil ei agree 4m was getting really stale ( evergame as zerg was hold your 4th for 20 mins and win or die trying), id have preferred it if mmmm still worked reasonably well and it was more a stylistic preference if people wanted to play 4m or marine helbat or marine tank etc etc just to improve variety in the matchup
tho i think were all getting a bit offtopic here and the majority of posts are just starting to become people whining...
I really enjoyed reading this post. I from my point of view agree with mines got nerfed too hard, since they are not that viable anymore. I enjoyed watching MMMM. If the mine nerf hadnt been that hard, I guess we would have a greater variety of styles in TvZ.
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On June 13 2014 20:37 _Epi_ wrote:
I really enjoyed reading this post. I from my point of view agree with mines got nerfed too hard, since they are not that viable anymore. I enjoyed watching MMMM. If the mine nerf hadnt been that hard, I guess we would have a greater variety of styles in TvZ.
I very dislike wm, because of the hits with big randomness (not damage) and waves of MMMM vs lingbling were very frustrating to watch from a point: if MMMM won a wave vs lingbling, zerg were never able to come back, plus zerg had a harder time to get 3-3 upgrades than now. Defiance sick split you can lose 8 banelings or 15supply zerglings from a wm random hit, don't you feel raged/unfair?
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yeah thats why i said that the nerf just shouldnt have been that hard like it is now. I agree it was quite heavy, but for me it was more fun to watch. But I dont like the state of the widowmine vs zerg right now.
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On June 14 2014 00:58 _Epi_ wrote:
yeah thats why i said that the nerf just shouldnt have been that hard like it is now. I agree it was quite heavy, but for me it was more fun to watch. But I dont like the state of the widowmine vs zerg right now.
I prefer hellbats without bio tag (no healing from medivac). Easier vision and more control/micro for both players at fight.
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On June 13 2014 19:20 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 18:56 Big J wrote:mutalisks weren't buffed because of some unit. They were buffed because blizzard wanted to encourage their usage compared to Wings of Liberty. Balance update #8: David Kim wrote
Mutalisk
We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough. 6days later, they also added the mutalisk regeneration. Nowhere did they mention anything about widow mines or something like that. fair enough, i just rembered seeing it was due to miens somehwere but guess i was wrong 
I think BigJ is missing the context here, because while in beta, everyone was complaining about how Mines made Mutalisks useless. Sligthly later, they ended up buffing Mutalisk regen. While they perhaps didn't say it directly, I think nobody playing the beta back then weren't convinced that they buffed it due to Widow Mines.
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On June 14 2014 01:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 19:20 Enigmasc wrote:On June 13 2014 18:56 Big J wrote:mutalisks weren't buffed because of some unit. They were buffed because blizzard wanted to encourage their usage compared to Wings of Liberty. Balance update #8: David Kim wrote
Mutalisk
We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough. 6days later, they also added the mutalisk regeneration. Nowhere did they mention anything about widow mines or something like that. fair enough, i just rembered seeing it was due to miens somehwere but guess i was wrong I think BigJ is missing the context here, because while in beta, everyone was complaining about how Mines made Mutalisks useless. Sligthly later, they ended up buffing Mutalisk regen. While they perhaps didn't say it directly, I think nobody playing the beta back then weren't convinced that they buffed it due to Widow Mines.
Well, but with that we go pretty deep into assumptions. Balance patch #8 that I quoted not only had this mutalisk patch with the prospect of another buff to mutalisks, it also contained the infestor nerfs with the explanation:
For Heart of the Swarm, we want to push players to mass units like Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Swarm Hosts, or Ultralisks, rather than the Infestor. As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.
Also Ultralisk, Swarm Host and Hydralisk buffs happened with this patch.
Fact is also that towards the end of WoL, mutalisk builds were rare and they usually ended up being played as:
- build 10mutalisks, force turrets, prevent drops, hit the 2-2 muta/ling/bling timing
- build 10mutalisks, immidiatly go infestors and try to delay everything terran by as much as you delayed your own higher tech (around 2mins)
In either case, you would stop going mutas pretty quickly and once they got hit a little too hard (e.g. by 1-2 Thor volleys), you'd just add them to your army as medivac cleaners and abbandon the harassment completely.
Also before (and after) Balance Update #8 we had a lot of complaining about Zerg still only playing BL/Infestor all day long and it being imbalanced. Which makes me believe, the determing arguments for the buffs were plainly the ones they gave us
1) buff mutalisks, because they wanted to encourage harassbased play over deathball play
2) buff mutalisks (amongst others), because they nerfed infestors and wanted to make up for it
It may be that widow mines were being considered, but noone ever dropped a clue about it. Nor was it detrimental for Zerg gameplay before the Infestor nerfs, that mutalisks were viable against massive usage of widow mines, as widow mines weren't viable against Infestors to begin with.
In my opinion, that regen buff happened way before any established mutalisk- or widow mine-based metagame. And putting it on the mine is just missing the bigger picture that blizzard buffed every Lair-tech option for Zerg when they nerfed infestors, regardless of its interaction with new units.
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What if widow mines could not hit air, and the muta speed and regen buffs were reverted?
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On June 14 2014 08:47 Big J wrote:
that blizzard buffed every Lair-tech option for Zerg when they nerfed infestors, regardless of its interaction with new units.
and that is where things started to go wrong
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On June 14 2014 23:44 Terence Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 08:47 Big J wrote:
that blizzard buffed every Lair-tech option for Zerg when they nerfed infestors, regardless of its interaction with new units. and that is where things started to go wrong
Hydra buffs were pretty necessary. Swarm Host was a new unit, balance "before" hardly existed. Ultralisk - not lair but atill buffed - was necessary to not get countered by a round of warpin zealots or archons.
Later roach burrow buffa are really cool.
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Can someone point out to me a situation in which Protoss need Time Warp ? It seems to me this spell overlaps with force field and that the game would be better without it.
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On June 16 2014 06:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Can someone point out to me a situation in which Protoss need Time Warp ? It seems to me this spell overlaps with force field and that the game would be better without it.
Blink all-in
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@imrusty269 the situation you're mentioning only reinforces my thinking that the game could do without that spell 
... Happy birthday by the way !
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On June 14 2014 23:18 IMPrime wrote:
What if widow mines could not hit air, and the muta speed and regen buffs were reverted?
It would become very very hard to hold oracles if you went 1-1-1 in TvP.
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On June 16 2014 08:32 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 06:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Can someone point out to me a situation in which Protoss need Time Warp ? It seems to me this spell overlaps with force field and that the game would be better without it. Blink all-in
i think he means a situation where they need it to survive in a standard game. if blink all-ins don't work without timewarp then you can choose to not do blink all-ins. absolutely no sane person in the world will argue that protoss is underpowered without the ability to blink all-in pvt
On June 16 2014 13:44 Livelovedie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 23:18 IMPrime wrote:
What if widow mines could not hit air, and the muta speed and regen buffs were reverted? It would become very very hard to hold oracles if you went 1-1-1 in TvP.
widow mine play vs banshees is also interesting and good, even if it's not the hugest deal
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On June 16 2014 13:44 Livelovedie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 23:18 IMPrime wrote:
What if widow mines could not hit air, and the muta speed and regen buffs were reverted? It would become very very hard to hold oracles if you went 1-1-1 in TvP.
Removing the AoE for air attack ?
But WM are the only real response in ultra late game against mass carrier or even mass sky T when you lose the air superiority.
It's really rare but still a thing.
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On June 16 2014 13:49 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 08:32 imrusty269 wrote:On June 16 2014 06:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Can someone point out to me a situation in which Protoss need Time Warp ? It seems to me this spell overlaps with force field and that the game would be better without it. Blink all-in i think he means a situation where they need it to survive in a standard game. if blink all-ins don't work without timewarp then you can choose to not do blink all-ins. absolutely no sane person in the world will argue that protoss is underpowered without the ability to blink all-in pvt Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 13:44 Livelovedie wrote:On June 14 2014 23:18 IMPrime wrote:
What if widow mines could not hit air, and the muta speed and regen buffs were reverted? It would become very very hard to hold oracles if you went 1-1-1 in TvP. widow mine play vs banshees is also interesting and good, even if it's not the hugest deal
I think this was sarcasm.
Time Warp really sucks imo, I would like to see it nerfed or better removed and replaced with anything else. It further makes comebacks vs P impossible, just as FF nd it does not really do the job for protoss comebacks as well. I am really sick of watching armies getting forcefielded then timewarped and dieing without dealing any damage to the protoss (what it is used for in many situations).
Other than that the only legit use of timewarp is when retreating after an attack or attempt imo.
Just got an idea how to change timewarp: Protoss should only be able to use it on certain own units (maybe spellcasters?) and the radius could be increased a little then. This way protoss could still use it defensively but not attack, FF, timewarp and then auto win.
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30s is just ridiculously long for a CC spell, more so considering how short SC2 battle last.
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EPT
