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On June 13 2014 04:26 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 04:18 LSN wrote:On June 13 2014 04:10 TheDwf wrote:On June 13 2014 04:07 Faust852 wrote:On June 13 2014 04:05 TheDwf wrote:I'm just going to quote some Big J wisdom, because otherwise we'll have 100 extra useless pages of "Marines are the core problem of SC2": On June 11 2014 05:06 Big J wrote:
please guys, just do not respond to LSN.
Even if you agree with all of it, not once has one of his posts led to a healthy discussion. Actually you are right, I looked at his post history, 95% of his posts are in this thread, and are whine about terrans. I remember his posts about 4M vs Zerg at the beginning of HotS. All the bad clichés that led to the mess that is bio vs Zerg now were there. The massive struggle of bio play alone post-Mine nerf proves his point about the Marine is completely wrong. Your strategy evolved from talking about terran up into talking about me. I don't know if I should feel honored about this or not. You guys were even here 2 years ago claiming terran up whilethere where 8 out of 11 (or smth like this) blizzcon qualified players terran and when single mine shots that killed a few too many banelings ended games instantly. Of course my point has proven to be wrong as blizzard realized to nerf the formerly op mine and this was exactly what I said. And I also said they should buff other stuff instead. Nice reality in what you live bro. Go ahead with spreading your lies. I can understand why he started talking about you. I've been calling out out for proof of the below statements you made. All you did was dodge the question and call me narrow minded. When you disregard someone's arguments and start to fling about insults, don't be surprised with ad hominems directed in your direction. "This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there." "Z/P can decide games early only with a heavy commitment. Not so terran. Simple 2 base macro is enough. Some dropship micro with 8 rines and games can be over, while 0 commitments and as well risks have been taken." Still waiting for proof of this dreaded, risk free push. Should be easy, right? After all it "could be witnessed in alot of recently played games".
Well for you I explain basic SC2 now, I dodged it as I thought it was not necessary and common knowledge.
Terran has medivacs in its natural composition when playing bio unlike e.g. oracles which are actually rather useless against terran. When protoss wants a fast easy win (or just an advantages that can predecide the game) against an unprepared terran, he has to do this commitment of doing the oracle tech before the other stuff that he actually needs. Terran instead has medics in its natural composition and is capable of putting pressure on protoss natural and mainbase at the same time. Using the dropship for early harrass doesn't require any tech commitment at all and killing 5-6 probes with the first dropship + simultanious pressure on the natural can predecide games and isnt actually all this rare. I have seen this alot. Even with the nexus cannon being active, the terran can commit his units to just focus fire down as many probes as possible at the cost of few marines or in the worst case at the cost of the dropship + content.
If a zerg wants to do anything against a terran early on he needs to do a heavy commitment on units that gives him a disadvantage on eco. The terran can decide games with early reaper harrass instead if the zerg defends badly again without changing the normal commitment and just being a bit more fragile to counters then that if they get scouted (with the reaper again) are 100% defendable (building 1 maurauder + 1-2 mines before helions usually does the trick).
Anyway I suppose these things were not the main issue of my argument at all. And I respect that the terran race needs such little advantages to overcome other disadvantages. Still it's like this and it's something to consider when balancing bio terran play.
I don't think I need to go further into detail how that translates into midgame and all the different scenarios where terran can make use of this that actually quite oftenly manage to predecide games (without any tech commitments of the terran as e.g. oracles, dts etc. are, that do similar things for protoss).
@dwarf
"with your "match-up is stale" propaganda"
The matchup was stale. Playing Z in ZvT was like playing a UMS defense map for 25 minutes that if you hold wins you the game but you most likely would lose in the process due to no available options to get agressive/active yourself by any means. I know terrans liked this but this cant be the meta of a matchup when one race entirely defines the pace and action of the game and the other one has only to perfectly react on everything or die.
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Lol your post is enough to determine you are no better than bronze.
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On June 13 2014 04:48 Faust852 wrote:
Lol your post is enough to determine you are no better than bronze.
thats none of your business, go ahead
Btw dwarf I agree that TvZ was very exciting to watch back then. At least the first 30-40 games. Then when you realized that every single game will have the exact same process of actions, it became extremely boring. I know most ppl would agree to this, there was really no variation at all and nothing could be expected to change if blizzard didn't do anything.
Apart from this it was not joyful to play this as a Z at all. The more joyful it was for you terran I guess.
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On June 13 2014 04:51 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 04:48 Faust852 wrote:
Lol your post is enough to determine you are no better than bronze. thats none of your business, go ahead
When you decided to spit non sense on this thread, it became a public problem dude.
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On June 13 2014 04:44 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 04:26 royalroadweed wrote:On June 13 2014 04:18 LSN wrote:On June 13 2014 04:10 TheDwf wrote:On June 13 2014 04:07 Faust852 wrote:On June 13 2014 04:05 TheDwf wrote:I'm just going to quote some Big J wisdom, because otherwise we'll have 100 extra useless pages of "Marines are the core problem of SC2": On June 11 2014 05:06 Big J wrote:
please guys, just do not respond to LSN.
Even if you agree with all of it, not once has one of his posts led to a healthy discussion. Actually you are right, I looked at his post history, 95% of his posts are in this thread, and are whine about terrans. I remember his posts about 4M vs Zerg at the beginning of HotS. All the bad clichés that led to the mess that is bio vs Zerg now were there. The massive struggle of bio play alone post-Mine nerf proves his point about the Marine is completely wrong. Your strategy evolved from talking about terran up into talking about me. I don't know if I should feel honored about this or not. You guys were even here 2 years ago claiming terran up whilethere where 8 out of 11 (or smth like this) blizzcon qualified players terran and when single mine shots that killed a few too many banelings ended games instantly. Of course my point has proven to be wrong as blizzard realized to nerf the formerly op mine and this was exactly what I said. And I also said they should buff other stuff instead. Nice reality in what you live bro. Go ahead with spreading your lies. I can understand why he started talking about you. I've been calling out out for proof of the below statements you made. All you did was dodge the question and call me narrow minded. When you disregard someone's arguments and start to fling about insults, don't be surprised with ad hominems directed in your direction. "This could be witnessed in alot of recently played games. Terrans just play standard (no commitment like e.g. blink all-in is), walks out with ~10 units and games oftenly already get decided there." "Z/P can decide games early only with a heavy commitment. Not so terran. Simple 2 base macro is enough. Some dropship micro with 8 rines and games can be over, while 0 commitments and as well risks have been taken." Still waiting for proof of this dreaded, risk free push. Should be easy, right? After all it "could be witnessed in alot of recently played games". Well for you I explain basic SC2 now, I dodged it as I thought it was not necessary and common knowledge. Terran has medivacs in its natural composition when playing bio unlike e.g. oracles which are actually rather useless against terran. When protoss wants a fast easy win (or just an advantages that can predecide the game) against an unprepared terran, he has to do this commitment of doing the oracle tech before the other stuff that he actually needs. Terran instead has medics in its natural composition and is capable of putting pressure on protoss natural and mainbase at the same time. Using the dropship for early harrass doesn't require any tech commitment at all and killing 5-6 probes with the first dropship + simultanious pressure on the natural can predecide games and isnt actually all this rare. I have seen this alot. Even with the nexus cannon being active, the terran can commit his units to just focus fire down as many probes as possible at the cost of few marines or in the worst case at the cost of the dropship + content. If a zerg wants to do anything against a terran early on he needs to do a heavy commitment on units that gives him a disadvantage on eco. The terran can decide games with early reaper harrass instead if the zerg defends badly again without changing the normal commitment and just being a bit more fragile to counters then that if they get scouted (with the reaper again) are 100% defendable (building 1 maurauder + 1-2 mines before helions usually does the trick). Anyway I suppose these things were not the main issue of my argument at all. And I respect that the terran race needs such little advantages to overcome other disadvantages. Still it's like this and it's something to consider when balancing bio terran play. I don't think I need to go further into detail how that translates into midgame and all the different scenarios where terran can make use of this that actually quite oftenly manage to predecide games (without any tech commitments of the terran as e.g. oracles, dts etc. are, that do similar things for protoss). @dwarf "with your "match-up is stale" propaganda" The matchup was stale. Playing Z in ZvT was like playing a UMS defense map for 25 minutes that if you hold wins you the game but you most likely would lose in the process due to no available options to get agressive/active yourself by any means. I know terrans liked this but this cant be the meta of a matchup when one race entirely defines the pace and action of the game and the other one has only to perfectly react on everything or die.
Again with the insults. Nicely played. Also, simply because you say something does not provide evidence it is true. Their have been no games in recent memory where the outcome was decided by an 8 marine, medivac push. Any kind of multi pronged harass vs P usually has widow mines, hellions or marauders accompanying them. Your only argument for this is simply, "I've seen it alot", which is neither evidence nor true. The only times 8 marines ended a game was maru vs stork and polt's build vs blink stalkers, neither of which were risk free or commitment-less.
Again I feel I have to repeat this because you do it more than once. You posting something on a forum does not make it true. You simply saying oracles are useless vs terran does not make it true. You saying mutas were given regen because of marines does not make it true. You saying "I've seen it alot", does not make it true.
You're still diverting the argument btw. Medivacs tech being a natural part of bio play has nothing to do with your assertion that 8 marines, medivac push following standard play have decided games alot recently. Reaper harass also has nothing to do with your touted game deciding 8 marines, medivac push following standard play. I'm not even buying your diversion. Simply because medivac tech are a part of bio play does not make drops harass risk free or commitment-less. They same way oracle harass from a phoenix, colossus isn't risk free or commitment-less.
Don't even bother responding. I know you'll only dodge the question again (or lie again, as you did with yoda vs tod). Thats all you can do. My exams are over and my university is on break, so I had the luxury to watch a lot of starcraft. So I know for a fact that in WCS, GSl and homestory cup their has been no game has been decided by an 8 marine, medivac plush following standard 2 base macro play from terran.
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On June 13 2014 04:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 04:18 LSN wrote:
You guys were even here during the start of hots, claiming terran up while there were 8 out of 11 players terrans that were qualified for blizzcon (or smth like this) and when single mine shots that killed a few too many banelings ended games instantly. Nope, we were claiming, against clueless people like you, that 4M was not OP and that Zergs were finding a way to fight on equal terms. Which is exactly what happened before Blizzard decided to listen to your kind (with your "match-up is stale" propaganda) and destroy a good match-up.
The matchup was more stale than you claiming terran is underpowered.
At least immediately after the patch we have bio into mech, mech into bio, bio mine and bio mech and mech
And claiming balance therefore no problem is just completely ignoring blizzard decision to change the matchup: bio mech 24/7
And zerg eventually adapted to bio mine by having a buff patch from blizzard before it got nerfed because how stale it was.
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@LSN.
Dude, I think its quite apparent that you are getting nowhere with these arguments. They are more intent to insult you than actually discuss. When you bring up a valid point, instead of counter-arguing with points, facts, they call you names. Its a miracle that you still manage to stay civil.
Likewise I do not play the game anymore because I suck at it. I do however enjoy watching the pro games where I marvel at the skills/mechanics of the players. I do however watch a ton of pro games and from there I do agree with you that the root of most balance problems stem from marines being OP.
The first and possibly only relevant question is at what level should the game be balanced at? Personally, I think it should be at the highest level of play. Not even GM NA/Europe level. This level arguably is at Proleague. Its no coincidence that the likes of Flash, Maru, Byong, Ty is ROFLStomping at proleague. Even MKP is cheesing himself a decent number of wins despite showing mediocre play.
Look at some of the games like Flash vs Rogue recently. Example of a game where you really wonder what could rogue have done much better to prevent such a lopsided loss. Although one have to marvel at the execution of a wonderful build by Flash (Big fan of Flash here).
Alot of the arguments here are for example, perceived helplessness against oracles. Its a mindset thing. Watching alot of the TVP pro games, most oracles harass does almost nothing against pro players. The only players that seems to able to successfully use the oracles to get some kills on a fairly consistent basis are CJ Hero and LiquidHerO. Even then it takes hell lot of multi-tasking for them to almost constantly babysit the oracles. Even then I do feel that the oracle is less effective compared to the banshee.
From watching the games, the feeling I get is that a lot of Terran pro player are not playing at the same level of their other race counterparts. For example drops or runbys. In so many games even of Maru, I cringe at his reaction to zealot warpins at main base. You see zealots continue to attack and kill scvs slowly even after a while. Comparatively, a slow reaction by zerg of protoss players to a medivac drop could potentially be game ending economic damage.
In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it. Build the blardy bunker. Maybe 2. And you are relatively safe against most aggression. And you can salvage later to get back 75% of the cost. Another is scouting. It never fails to baffles me when Terrans complain they are unable to scout. You have scans, use it. If you die because you don't scout, refuse to use scans, its because you are greedy, not because the race is UP. Effective zerg scouting means you need an overseer to sacrifice itself for every scout. It cost not just minerals but gas as well for every scout. I do agree that Protoss have it easier with hallucination in this regard.
Ok back to marines/bio.
If polt can do this, So can you.
Nexus cannon? Bah, no problem.
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United States7483 Posts
On June 13 2014 13:19 Samx wrote:@LSN. Dude, I think its quite apparent that you are getting nowhere with these arguments. They are more intent to insult you than actually discuss. When you bring up a valid point, instead of counter-arguing with points, facts, they call you names. Its a miracle that you still manage to stay civil. Likewise I do not play the game anymore because I suck at it. I do however enjoy watching the pro games where I marvel at the skills/mechanics of the players. I do however watch a ton of pro games and from there I do agree with you that the root of most balance problems stem from marines being OP. The first and possibly only relevant question is at what level should the game be balanced at? Personally, I think it should be at the highest level of play. Not even GM NA/Europe level. This level arguably is at Proleague. Its no coincidence that the likes of Flash, Maru, Byong, Ty is ROFLStomping at proleague. Even MKP is cheesing himself a decent number of wins despite showing mediocre play. Look at some of the games like Flash vs Rogue recently. Example of a game where you really wonder what could rogue have done much better to prevent such a lopsided loss. Although one have to marvel at the execution of a wonderful build by Flash (Big fan of Flash here). Alot of the arguments here are for example, perceived helplessness against oracles. Its a mindset thing. Watching alot of the TVP pro games, most oracles harass does almost nothing against pro players. The only players that seems to able to successfully use the oracles to get some kills on a fairly consistent basis are CJ Hero and LiquidHerO. Even then it takes hell lot of multi-tasking for them to almost constantly babysit the oracles. Even then I do feel that the oracle is less effective compared to the banshee. From watching the games, the feeling I get is that a lot of Terran pro player are not playing at the same level of their other race counterparts. For example drops or runbys. In so many games even of Maru, I cringe at his reaction to zealot warpins at main base. You see zealots continue to attack and kill scvs slowly even after a while. Comparatively, a slow reaction by zerg of protoss players to a medivac drop could potentially be game ending economic damage. In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it. Build the blardy bunker. Maybe 2. And you are relatively safe against most aggression. And you can salvage later to get back 75% of the cost. Another is scouting. It never fails to baffles me when Terrans complain they are unable to scout. You have scans, use it. If you die because you don't scout, refuse to use scans, its because you are greedy, not because the race is UP. Effective zerg scouting means you need an overseer to sacrifice itself for every scout. It cost not just minerals but gas as well for every scout. I do agree that Protoss have it easier with hallucination in this regard. Ok back to marines/bio. If polt can do this, So can you.Nexus cannon? Bah, no problem.
That was Daedalus Point, by far the worst HOTS map they had. I'm not taking sides here at all, but saying that everyone should be able to play like polt TvP on the worst protoss map they had this expansion on any current map is a little ridiculous.
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In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it.
This is an insanley ignorant comment. Terrans in TvP play the most conservative and discplined openings I have ever witnessed during the history of Sc2.
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On June 13 2014 13:42 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it. This is an insanley ignorant comment. Terrans in TvP play the most conservative and discplined openings I have ever witnessed during the history of Sc2.
Then you must have closed your eyes during the Broodlord/Infestor era and ignored every PvZ build ever played. The most insanely defensive and rigid builds to defend the mere possibility of a Stephano-style roach max.
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On June 13 2014 13:42 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it. This is an insanley ignorant comment. Terrans in TvP play the most conservative and discplined openings I have ever witnessed during the history of Sc2.
I wouldn't be surprise this guy is LSN on an alt tbh. His other post was a year ago, at the same time LSN was spiting other non sense about widow mines and marines being OP.
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On June 13 2014 15:08 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2014 13:42 Hider wrote:In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it. This is an insanley ignorant comment. Terrans in TvP play the most conservative and discplined openings I have ever witnessed during the history of Sc2. I wouldn't be surprise this guy is LSN on an alt tbh. His other post was a year ago, at the same time LSN was spiting other non sense about widow mines and marines being OP.
yep
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 13 2014 13:19 Samx wrote:@LSN. Dude, I think its quite apparent that you are getting nowhere with these arguments. They are more intent to insult you than actually discuss. When you bring up a valid point, instead of counter-arguing with points, facts, they call you names. Its a miracle that you still manage to stay civil. Likewise I do not play the game anymore because I suck at it. I do however enjoy watching the pro games where I marvel at the skills/mechanics of the players. I do however watch a ton of pro games and from there I do agree with you that the root of most balance problems stem from marines being OP. The first and possibly only relevant question is at what level should the game be balanced at? Personally, I think it should be at the highest level of play. Not even GM NA/Europe level. This level arguably is at Proleague. Its no coincidence that the likes of Flash, Maru, Byong, Ty is ROFLStomping at proleague. Even MKP is cheesing himself a decent number of wins despite showing mediocre play. Look at some of the games like Flash vs Rogue recently. Example of a game where you really wonder what could rogue have done much better to prevent such a lopsided loss. Although one have to marvel at the execution of a wonderful build by Flash (Big fan of Flash here). Alot of the arguments here are for example, perceived helplessness against oracles. Its a mindset thing. Watching alot of the TVP pro games, most oracles harass does almost nothing against pro players. The only players that seems to able to successfully use the oracles to get some kills on a fairly consistent basis are CJ Hero and LiquidHerO. Even then it takes hell lot of multi-tasking for them to almost constantly babysit the oracles. Even then I do feel that the oracle is less effective compared to the banshee. From watching the games, the feeling I get is that a lot of Terran pro player are not playing at the same level of their other race counterparts. For example drops or runbys. In so many games even of Maru, I cringe at his reaction to zealot warpins at main base. You see zealots continue to attack and kill scvs slowly even after a while. Comparatively, a slow reaction by zerg of protoss players to a medivac drop could potentially be game ending economic damage. In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it. Build the blardy bunker. Maybe 2. And you are relatively safe against most aggression. And you can salvage later to get back 75% of the cost. Another is scouting. It never fails to baffles me when Terrans complain they are unable to scout. You have scans, use it. If you die because you don't scout, refuse to use scans, its because you are greedy, not because the race is UP. Effective zerg scouting means you need an overseer to sacrifice itself for every scout. It cost not just minerals but gas as well for every scout. I do agree that Protoss have it easier with hallucination in this regard. Ok back to marines/bio. If polt can do this, So can you.Nexus cannon? Bah, no problem.
there's so much stuff wrong in this post I don't know where to start
"Watching alot of the TVP pro games, most oracles harass does almost nothing against pro players."
might have something to do with every terran repeating the same blindcounter to oracle build every game
and then you state stuff like this at first
"From watching the games, the feeling I get is that a lot of Terran pro player are not playing at the same level of their other race counterparts. "
and then you state stuff like this
"I cringe at his reaction to zealot warpins at main base. You see zealots continue to attack and kill scvs slowly even after a while. Comparatively, a slow reaction by zerg of protoss players to a medivac drop could potentially be game ending economic damage."
a ling runby or mass zealot warp in can go unmicro'd and do shit tons of damage because of the stats on these units, a MM drop on the other hand has to be babbysitted hard and is less effective in clearing anything fast, which makes your earlier argument laughable
"In general, Terran players are greedy and a lot of complaints to early game aggression are simply because they want to both have the cake and eat it."
yes, terrans are so greedy getting a 3rd base of 5rax production, disgustingly greedy compared to those 3nexus of a zealot, stalker and MSC protoss.
"Build the blardy bunker. Maybe 2. And you are relatively safe against most aggression. And you can salvage later to get back 75% of the cos"
bunkers are awfull, they only add a bit of hp to your defense for 100minerals, but no actual damage and will not prevent any bust, especialy when theres immortals and the bunker melts in a second, the main strength of terran bio force is its ability to kite, and a bunker is stationary.
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The most fond memory I have of TvZ are the epic Marine/Tank/Medivac games vs Muta/Ling/Baneling in WoL.
Positioning, micro and drops were everything. Terran could use drops to get the Mutas out of position and move up the Tanks.
Zerg could use flanking and Muta harass to return the favor, not to mention a Zergling runby.
Brood Lords would eventually be added requiring Terran to keep an eye out and prepare to mass Vikings.
Things were clear, fun and most of all, easy to watch. Everyone could see what both sides were doing.
It didn't get boring for me. Ever. Seeing the TvZ players go head to head was a ton of fun to watch.
Now we have a super Muta ball that can essentially only die when microed poorly.
Rather than having Marines defending Tanks and Zerg trading some Muta HP for Tank kills, Zerg can now fly in, lose half the health on his Mutas to splash and whatnot and still come away free.
Hence why Marine/Tank is TvZ is only used now against Roach/Hydra.
I still don't fully understand why Mutalisks were ever given the regen in the first place.
It does not help against Marines as the regen comes after a fight and they already got a speed boost to deal with the Medivac Boosters.
Maybe they gave it to help against Mine hits but they should've made a different change (modified dmg vs Air or something) than just make Mutas this good.
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@Meavis
First thing. 3 Nexus zealot stalker MSC, 1 gate will not survive terran push. Die outright. Just wait out the cannon.
'bunkers are awfull, they only add a bit of hp to your defense for 100minerals, but no actual damage and will not prevent any bust, especialy when theres immortals and the bunker melts in a second, the main strength of terran bio force is its ability to kite, and a bunker is stationary.'
What is the counter to immortal? Yes marines. 400 hit points is a little? And you can repair them! An Archon plus shield only has 360. Think about it, you spend 200 minerals to build 2 bunkers, you are effectively forcing the protoss to build 2/3 immortals which cost 250 minerals and 100 gas each. And besides when the protoss can amass 3-4 immortals, its not early aggression.
"a ling runby or mass zealot warp in can go unmicro'd and do shit tons of damage because of the stats on these units, a MM drop on the other hand has to be babbysitted hard and is less effective in clearing anything fast, which makes your earlier argument laughable"
Zealots warp ins do tons of damage because the terran did not micro his scvs away. Really do not understand how anyone can argue that MM drop deals less damage than Zealots for similar supply.
About the fallacy that Terran needs micro and the propaganda about this. Often you hear casters going ballistics about marine splits micro. I think its even harder to split the banelings when the zerg is attacking into the marines. Mutas have to come in after the zerglings A-move, to target medivacs, and to split the banelings. There's tons more micro for zergs for that engagement. Or stutter-stepping for bio army. Lol, even a silver leaguer can stutter step. Too much hype.
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Lol, even a silver leaguer can stutter step.
Hopefully you admitted not playing the game because otherwise I wouldn't believe how you could tell such BS without trolling.
Btw it's only your second post and you are already spotted being a LSN alt. That's pretty weak to lick his own balls.
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On June 13 2014 16:50 Thezzy wrote:
The most fond memory I have of TvZ are the epic Marine/Tank/Medivac games vs Muta/Ling/Baneling in WoL.
Positioning, micro and drops were everything. Terran could use drops to get the Mutas out of position and move up the Tanks.
Zerg could use flanking and Muta harass to return the favor, not to mention a Zergling runby.
Brood Lords would eventually be added requiring Terran to keep an eye out and prepare to mass Vikings.
Things were clear, fun and most of all, easy to watch. Everyone could see what both sides were doing.
It didn't get boring for me. Ever. Seeing the TvZ players go head to head was a ton of fun to watch.
Now we have a super Muta ball that can essentially only die when microed poorly.
Rather than having Marines defending Tanks and Zerg trading some Muta HP for Tank kills, Zerg can now fly in, lose half the health on his Mutas to splash and whatnot and still come away free.
Hence why Marine/Tank is TvZ is only used now against Roach/Hydra.
I still don't fully understand why Mutalisks were ever given the regen in the first place.
It does not help against Marines as the regen comes after a fight and they already got a speed boost to deal with the Medivac Boosters.
Maybe they gave it to help against Mine hits but they should've made a different change (modified dmg vs Air or something) than just make Mutas this good.
They gave it for the same reason as they gave the medivac the boosters:
they wanted to make harass based play stronger and make it possible to keep on using these kind of units longer.
In the case of the medivac, they wanted them to get into and out of bases more regularily.
In the case of the mutalisk, they wanted that mutalisks weren't just a midgame tech that had a window of 2mins and then you'd just mass up infestors. Also they were talking about buffing other zerg units, for nerfing the infestor.
(that was their official reasoning, as far as I remember)
Neither of those was necessary, because both of them were really strong units to begin with. But they achieved what they intended. Not sure though whether the intentions were the right ones to begin with.
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a lot of people are really starting to spout garbage in this thread now
for one LSN i dont know how you can say an early drop isnt a commitment, standard play only gets medivac out by around 10-11 mins by which point the protoss usually has more than enough to defend against something as small as 8 marines in a medivac, and if the Terran goes a gas first build to rush out hellions/mines for a quick drop its already a commitment into earlier tech and a much delayed 3rd CC or production
the reason a lot of people are disagreeing with you LSN is because your asserting that marines are over-powered, when a better way to make your point would be to phrase it is that the strength/versatility of the marine is what necessitates such hard counters such as banes and colossus. opening your argument by claiming its OP and then using illogical arguments to follow it up isn't going to generate a constructive response.
the idea drops need to be babysat to do damage is utter rubbish for one, you merely have to unload the marines, box them and stim then leave it to control your main frontal push where you actually need to micro/ divert your attention
the ammount of damage done with the drop mainly coming from how well the opponent responds not how well you control it
similarly a ling runby or zealot warpin doesnt require insane micro but wont do catastrophic damage unless the terran messes up or is slow to respond ( barring truly massive warpins or ling runbys that overwhelm the rally/ production) but in those cases the harras is a significant investment
@thezzy
the main reason mutas got buffed was because of mines, as prior to the regen your muta flock would essentially become useless for harras if it ate as little as 1 or 2 mine shots, and as already said they wanted to strengthen harras in hots so that the game wasnt deathball vs deathball etc etc
tbh i wish the widow mine hadnt been hit so hard in the shins though, whil ei agree 4m was getting really stale ( evergame as zerg was hold your 4th for 20 mins and win or die trying), id have preferred it if mmmm still worked reasonably well and it was more a stylistic preference if people wanted to play 4m or marine helbat or marine tank etc etc just to improve variety in the matchup
tho i think were all getting a bit offtopic here and the majority of posts are just starting to become people whining...
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mutalisks weren't buffed because of some unit. They were buffed because blizzard wanted to encourage their usage compared to Wings of Liberty.
Balance update #8:
David Kim wrote
Mutalisk
We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough.
6days later, they also added the mutalisk regeneration. Nowhere did they mention anything about widow mines or something like that.
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On June 13 2014 18:56 Big J wrote:mutalisks weren't buffed because of some unit. They were buffed because blizzard wanted to encourage their usage compared to Wings of Liberty. Balance update #8: Show nested quote +David Kim wrote
Mutalisk
We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough. 6days later, they also added the mutalisk regeneration. Nowhere did they mention anything about widow mines or something like that.
fair enough, i just rembered seeing it was due to miens somehwere but guess i was wrong 
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EPT
