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On June 17 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 21:30 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch
i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame
but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv
its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT.
right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing) You answer your problem with your first paragraph. Terran struggles when Z can mass 25 mutas. Zerg struggles when T can mass 20 ravens. The difference is pretty neat though. The HB push force the zerg to be less greedy, hence he cannot make his huge muta ball this early, leaving the T to compet in a macro game. Ravens are good when you have 20 of them, but it's almost impossible to mass them in a realistic scenario. On a big number of maps, taking a 4th is really hard, and if the T manage to campe of 4 bases for 30min, the Z will have covered the map for a long time. There are pretty good respond to ravens compared to mutas too. One good fungal is game lose, ultras-queens are really good against mass ravens too. The terran has like only one shoot at winning and if the zerg send waves after waves on him, he will break because ravens will eventually run out of energy and the terran just cannot remax. Another good answer is going heavy on vipers, my heavy, I mean around 20. At each encounter, you will lose around 3, max for vipers but you will garantee 20 kills with grabs. Then you reprod the viper lost, remax on energy, and go again. This is in my opinion the most BS I ever encounted because I feel there is no answer to that except for ghosts who are weak as fuck when you go mech. You just cannot trade efficiently against that, and you are on what, 5 bases max and the Z is on 16 gaz. There is also the 15 SH and 50 mutas remax that is deadly. You attack at the same time as your Ss on creep with your 50 mutas splitted, he will be force to lauch a dozen of PDD that will melt in an instant, HSM will do FF on your army, and if you manage to reboot that, 50 others mutas are here to finish you.
the Hb change seems strong now , but once zergs figure out the optimal way of dealing with it i doubt its gona be that strong,especially once zergs figure out the the signs and optimise the defence of it
and i think it just delays the muta ball getting to 25+ rather than giving terrans a way to deal with it
ravens are insanely strong if you can mass them, and pretty much necessitate SH static d style of playing vs mech
because it trades ludicrously efficiently if you just build mass raven behind the tank line.
also 20 vipers? you know that is literally 4k gas and 60 supply of untis that dont actually attack right? and the mech player would just build vikings?
im not trying to say ravens are brokenly overpowered, im just saying there not really well balanced in that they grow in strength exponentially and are useless in low ammounts ( excluding tvt ) much like the old infestors.
if ravens were stronger in low ammounts as usefull supporting casters then we might see terrans to mix them in lategame while playing bio.
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also 20 vipers? you know thats literally 4k gas and 60 supply of untis that dont actually attack right? and the mech player would just build vikings?
I bet you didn't even try to think how it would work.
20 ravens is also 4k gaz, and that not counting the 15/20 vikings you need to be at least a little resistance facing this compo.
In the late game you don't need that much drones, and only gaz really, you don't trade your army since you have SH so you can still build a huge bank. Especially if the T campe like an ass for 25min.
The fact is, you need something like 5/6 vikings to OS a viper. You have 20 vipers, 20 spores, and a few queens.
Now the T want to kill you, he has to engage on your spore/spine line on creep, what does he do ? Move foward with his ravensvikings to PDD, seeng what you have, trying to HSM some units. That's were it becomes sick to have this much vipers.
You have 20 abducts ! that means 20 units that would be killed almost instantly. His 15 ravens might kills a couple of vipers, but it's in now way effective ! That's really sick. And IIRC you have 2 abducts for a full energy viper, so even more adbuct, and it can consume building too regen it way faster than the terran army does for its ravens.
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On June 17 2014 23:28 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 22:03 Faust852 wrote:On June 17 2014 21:30 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch
i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame
but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv
its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT.
right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing) You answer your problem with your first paragraph. Terran struggles when Z can mass 25 mutas. Zerg struggles when T can mass 20 ravens. The difference is pretty neat though. The HB push force the zerg to be less greedy, hence he cannot make his huge muta ball this early, leaving the T to compet in a macro game. Ravens are good when you have 20 of them, but it's almost impossible to mass them in a realistic scenario. On a big number of maps, taking a 4th is really hard, and if the T manage to campe of 4 bases for 30min, the Z will have covered the map for a long time. There are pretty good respond to ravens compared to mutas too. One good fungal is game lose, ultras-queens are really good against mass ravens too. The terran has like only one shoot at winning and if the zerg send waves after waves on him, he will break because ravens will eventually run out of energy and the terran just cannot remax. Another good answer is going heavy on vipers, my heavy, I mean around 20. At each encounter, you will lose around 3, max for vipers but you will garantee 20 kills with grabs. Then you reprod the viper lost, remax on energy, and go again. This is in my opinion the most BS I ever encounted because I feel there is no answer to that except for ghosts who are weak as fuck when you go mech. You just cannot trade efficiently against that, and you are on what, 5 bases max and the Z is on 16 gaz. There is also the 15 SH and 50 mutas remax that is deadly. You attack at the same time as your Ss on creep with your 50 mutas splitted, he will be force to lauch a dozen of PDD that will melt in an instant, HSM will do FF on your army, and if you manage to reboot that, 50 others mutas are here to finish you. the Hb change seems strong now , but once zergs figure out the optimal way of dealing with it i doubt its gona be that strong,especially once zergs figure out the the signs and optimise the defence of it and i think it just delays the muta ball getting to 25+ rather than giving terrans a way to deal with it ravens are insanely strong if you can mass them, and pretty much necessitate SH static d style of playing vs mech because it trades ludicrously efficiently if you just build mass raven behind the tank line. also 20 vipers? you know that is literally 4k gas and 60 supply of untis that dont actually attack right? and the mech player would just build vikings? im not trying to say ravens are brokenly overpowered, im just saying there not really well balanced in that they grow in strength exponentially and are useless in low ammounts ( excluding tvt ) much like the old infestors. if ravens were stronger in low ammounts as usefull supporting casters then we might see terrans to mix them in lategame while playing bio.
The reason why terrran can't deal with mass muta is 3fold)
1. Micro for mass muta is MUCH easier than BW - if you think about it, 1 control group is all you need for 30 muta, vs. 1 control group for every muta in sc1. That's literally 3x less micro.
2. Lack of air-to-air counters. To MOST effectively counter mass air, you need mass air, since otherwise, you never get to force an engagement on the ground, they can just run away unless you achieve a pincer, which is incredibly difficult. See SC1: we had air to air splash units in corsair and valks, that even down 4:1 ratio muta: sair/valks, could do decently.
Phenoix have +X vs. light to remedy the issue, so mutas aren't murderous vs. P. Terran have _no_ air to air answer (except a VERY lucky HSM, vs. they used to have Valks and irradiate, which was a much more effective HSM (began dealing damage immediately). Vikings are bascially wraiths, and those sucked vs muta.
3) Dustin Balder comes up with perhaps the most counter-intuitive design to counter Mass Muta, in THORS. WTF! Ground units are already inherently at a disadvantage fighting air, since their manuverability is limited. Dustin Balder decides to make Thors, the SLOWEST GROUND UNIT to counter muta, ONE OF THE FASTEST AIR UNITS. What could possibly go wrong?!
The combo of these 3 facts is what completely bones terrans.
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On June 17 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +also 20 vipers? you know thats literally 4k gas and 60 supply of untis that dont actually attack right? and the mech player would just build vikings? I bet you didn't even try to think how it would work. 20 ravens is also 4k gaz, and that not counting the 15/20 vikings you need to be at least a little resistance facing this compo. In the late game you don't need that much drones, and only gaz really, you don't trade your army since you have SH so you can still build a huge bank. Especially if the T campe like an ass for 25min. The fact is, you need something like 5/6 vikings to OS a viper. You have 20 vipers, 20 spores, and a few queens. Now the T want to kill you, he has to engage on your spore/spine line on creep, what does he do ? Move foward with his ravensvikings to PDD, seeng what you have, trying to HSM some units. That's were it becomes sick to have this much vipers. You have 20 abducts ! that means 20 units that would be killed almost instantly. His 15 ravens might kills a couple of vipers, but it's in now way effective ! That's really sick. And IIRC you have 2 abducts for a full energy viper, so even more adbuct, and it can consume building too regen it way faster than the terran army does for its ravens.
Vikings.
Are much better against this than you pretend they are.
Also your whole argument is based on the Terran walking on creep into spore/spine. So what's the backup plan with mass viper if the Terran does not do that? If he just splits map on Overgrowth, sits above his ramps, mines out the first 5bases and then moves everything to the 6th base and mines out that one?
And, if you don't have more antiair than 20spores (which have to be very spread out to cover all the area you need to cover) and some queens, the ravens throw down PDDs and the units return home. Meaning you have lost a bunch of Vipers for some Raven energy.
So, you need like 50spores and 20corruptors as well for that strategy to start working, but then you will realize you don't have the supply to hold any form of ground push of the 100+ supply of tank/thor, if you have 100supply of viper/corruptor hence, you don't build that many vipers, hence, you play what zergs are doing already which is having a number between 5-10vipers.
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On June 18 2014 00:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 23:39 Faust852 wrote:also 20 vipers? you know thats literally 4k gas and 60 supply of untis that dont actually attack right? and the mech player would just build vikings? I bet you didn't even try to think how it would work. 20 ravens is also 4k gaz, and that not counting the 15/20 vikings you need to be at least a little resistance facing this compo. In the late game you don't need that much drones, and only gaz really, you don't trade your army since you have SH so you can still build a huge bank. Especially if the T campe like an ass for 25min. The fact is, you need something like 5/6 vikings to OS a viper. You have 20 vipers, 20 spores, and a few queens. Now the T want to kill you, he has to engage on your spore/spine line on creep, what does he do ? Move foward with his ravensvikings to PDD, seeng what you have, trying to HSM some units. That's were it becomes sick to have this much vipers. You have 20 abducts ! that means 20 units that would be killed almost instantly. His 15 ravens might kills a couple of vipers, but it's in now way effective ! That's really sick. And IIRC you have 2 abducts for a full energy viper, so even more adbuct, and it can consume building too regen it way faster than the terran army does for its ravens. Vikings. Are much better against this than you pretend they are. Also your whole argument is based on the Terran walking on creep into spore/spine. So what's the backup plan with mass viper if the Terran does not do that? If he just splits map on Overgrowth, sits above his ramps, mines out the first 5bases and then moves everything to the 6th base and mines out that one? And, if you don't have more antiair than 20spores (which have to be very spread out to cover all the area you need to cover) and some queens, the ravens throw down PDDs and the units return home. Meaning you have lost a bunch of Vipers for some Raven energy. So, you need like 50spores and 20corruptors as well for that strategy to start working, but then you will realize you don't have the supply to hold any form of ground push of the 100+ supply of tank/thor, if you have 100supply of viper/corruptor hence, you don't build that many vipers, hence, you play what zergs are doing already which is having a number between 5-10vipers.
You can spread your creep, its extremely difficult to deny it when you play a passive mech style, on most maps it's getting on your 5th by the 20" mark. Moreso on Overgrowth.
20 vipers is 60 supplys
55 drones
15 SH is 45 supplys
10 queens is 20 supplys
it leaves you 20 supply to bo either 10 corruptors, 10 hydras or 10 extra queens.
If you have a big enough bank, you can even go down to 45 drones, leaving 10 more extra supplys.
Now, for the terrans.
20 ravens is 40 supplys
20 vikings is 40 supplys
15/20 tanks to deal wit the SH is 45 to 60 supplys
30 scvs (This is not the case usually since you need mass OC to do that, and if you are on 4 bases you won't have high mineral bank)
leaving 30 supplys for thors usually (if you don't have any you could automatically lose to muta switch. And maybe some hellion/hellbats.
I think you need 5 vikings to OS a viper, not counting overkill.
So with 20 vikings, you will kill at best 4 to 5 vipers per voley. 2s of cooldown leaving you the time to do all the abduct you want. Don't forget PDD are rapidly being emptied of their energy when you fight against SHs, queens and hydralisk at the same time.
So, even if the worst case scenario, if the T micro his army very well and back almost all the grabbed unit, he will lose say 5 ravens/vikings.
Maybe not the most cost effective trade, but he also had to lauch 10 PDD, he is stuck on 4 bases, not a huge bank to remax while you have at least 6 minings bases.
btw, overgrowth is a terrible map for terran, if the zerg is not stupid, spliting his SH in the midgame is enough to break him after a couple of minute because he wont have enough tank to hold 2 fronts (nat and 3rd). On this map you just need to attack on 2 sides with SHs and harass with around 20/25 mutas. Leaving the T spliting the map is almost being terrible.
I'm obviously talking about personnal experience since there is so few mech game at pro level in TvZ. And when it happens, the T usually win or lose on his timing attack, or the Z destroys him with heavy roach in midgame.
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Your terran bias is so huge, I don't even see what you are trying to show besides "terran up" in this artificial scenario.
Z cant even afford to get 20 vipers. On the one hand it is hell expensive, on the other hand there would be not enough supply left for other units (as your example shows very well). I would much more like to have the terran composition with 20 ravens inside than this weak zerg composition that has nothing else than the swarmhosts and once they get crushed by 20 ravens (in the cover of 20 vikings + ppd) is simply dead :p
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So the zerg can't afford 20 vipers on 12+ gaz but the T can affort 20 ravens on 8 ? explains me that please.
I'm just trying to explain that there are more style against T mech than just crying about it and complaining it's imba.
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On June 17 2014 21:30 Enigmasc wrote:
tbh i duno how i feel about the hellbat patch
i always felt the part of the game were terran struggled was lategame once the muta cloud got to like 25+ and T struggled to take a 4th, not that terran stuggled in the early-midgame
but i duno well see
on a comepeltley un-related note, id really like if the raven got a look at in lotv
its kinda ridiculous how strong raven are en-mass ( just look at the horrible turtle mech into raven style that basically neccesitates swarmhost)but at the same time id kinda of like them to be more usefull in a support caster role outside TvT.
right now they kinda seem like wol infestors ( amazing to mass) when id prefer it if they were more like hots infestors ( really good support caster situationally, but not really worth massing)
I dont know what games you were watching but pretty much the only time a meching terran masses 20+ ravens is when the ZERG starts making Swarmhosts and NOT the other way around. Meching terrans don't ever make 20+ ravens unless they see Swarmhosts because PDDs/Ravens are the only answer to Swarmhosts. Without Ravens, Swarmhosts would run over the Terran Mech army or at the very least forces the T army to never move from it's position and then allowing the Zerg to expand and/or attack other positions where the T can't defend because they can't move.
Swarmhosts are one of the worse designed units that blizzard came up with. Fix Swarmhosts and you'll never see mass 20+ ravens outside of gimmicky builds.
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^I second that. But they will say that there is no other counter to mech then.
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On June 18 2014 02:48 Faust852 wrote:
^I second that. But they will say that there is no other counter to mech then.
Even pro Terrans say that.
Even you include Swarm Hosts in every way to combat Mech you wrote about.
And at least for me I can say with 100% certainty that i would still mass ravens. Why wouldnt I? Mining out the map with ravens is the best endgame strategy Terran has. Not at least aiming to do it means your strategy isnt optimal. And there is nothing I hate more than people not trying to play optimal.
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On June 18 2014 03:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 02:48 Faust852 wrote:
^I second that. But they will say that there is no other counter to mech then. Even pro Terrans say that. Even you include Swarm Hosts in every way to combat Mech you wrote about. And at least for me I can say with 100% certainty that i would still mass ravens. Why wouldnt I? Mining out the map with ravens is the best endgame strategy Terran has. Not at least aiming to do it means your strategy isnt optimal. And there is nothing I hate more than people not trying to play optimal.
I gave an exemple were you use SH yes. But I gave a lot of other way to play vs mech in this thread in the past.
Mutas roach, roach hydra vipers, etc. All of them are viable style since the T won't be able to max on ravens against that.
In some situations BC are better than ravens, at least a mix of them. The only MU were BC is a viable option in lategame.
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On June 18 2014 03:19 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:06 Big J wrote:On June 18 2014 02:48 Faust852 wrote:
^I second that. But they will say that there is no other counter to mech then. Even pro Terrans say that. Even you include Swarm Hosts in every way to combat Mech you wrote about. And at least for me I can say with 100% certainty that i would still mass ravens. Why wouldnt I? Mining out the map with ravens is the best endgame strategy Terran has. Not at least aiming to do it means your strategy isnt optimal. And there is nothing I hate more than people not trying to play optimal. I gave an exemple were you use SH yes. But I gave a lot of other way to play vs mech in this thread in the past. Mutas roach, roach hydra vipers, etc. All of them are viable style since the T won't be able to max on ravens against that. In some situations BC are better than ravens, at least a mix of them. The only MU were BC is a viable option in lategame.
Those tactics can be used against mech and they can win yo games yes. The problem is that there will be a point where terran reaches a point where those attacks just don´t work. After this point SH are the best and often only way to survive and win.
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On June 18 2014 03:26 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:19 Faust852 wrote:On June 18 2014 03:06 Big J wrote:On June 18 2014 02:48 Faust852 wrote:
^I second that. But they will say that there is no other counter to mech then. Even pro Terrans say that. Even you include Swarm Hosts in every way to combat Mech you wrote about. And at least for me I can say with 100% certainty that i would still mass ravens. Why wouldnt I? Mining out the map with ravens is the best endgame strategy Terran has. Not at least aiming to do it means your strategy isnt optimal. And there is nothing I hate more than people not trying to play optimal. I gave an exemple were you use SH yes. But I gave a lot of other way to play vs mech in this thread in the past. Mutas roach, roach hydra vipers, etc. All of them are viable style since the T won't be able to max on ravens against that. In some situations BC are better than ravens, at least a mix of them. The only MU were BC is a viable option in lategame. Those tactics can be used against mech and they can win yo games yes. The problem is that there will be a point where terran reaches a point where those attacks just don´t work. After this point SH are the best and often only way to survive and win.
It's more a tool that is used to much in response to mech that people doesn't even try other things.
I watch SuperNova this morning. He only plays mech in TvZ.
He got rekt by :
mass mutas;
ultra queens;
roach hydra vipers;
roach hydra mutas;
SHs mutas;
and mass roach midgame a couple of time.
I really think these responses are as viable as SHs and lead to much more fun from both side ans spectatorwise.
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On June 18 2014 03:32 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 03:26 RaFox17 wrote:On June 18 2014 03:19 Faust852 wrote:On June 18 2014 03:06 Big J wrote:On June 18 2014 02:48 Faust852 wrote:
^I second that. But they will say that there is no other counter to mech then. Even pro Terrans say that. Even you include Swarm Hosts in every way to combat Mech you wrote about. And at least for me I can say with 100% certainty that i would still mass ravens. Why wouldnt I? Mining out the map with ravens is the best endgame strategy Terran has. Not at least aiming to do it means your strategy isnt optimal. And there is nothing I hate more than people not trying to play optimal. I gave an exemple were you use SH yes. But I gave a lot of other way to play vs mech in this thread in the past. Mutas roach, roach hydra vipers, etc. All of them are viable style since the T won't be able to max on ravens against that. In some situations BC are better than ravens, at least a mix of them. The only MU were BC is a viable option in lategame. Those tactics can be used against mech and they can win yo games yes. The problem is that there will be a point where terran reaches a point where those attacks just don´t work. After this point SH are the best and often only way to survive and win. It's more a tool that is used to much in response to mech that people doesn't even try other things. I watch SuperNova this morning. He only plays mech in TvZ. He got rekt by : mass mutas; ultra queens; roach hydra vipers; roach hydra mutas; SHs mutas; and mass roach midgame a couple of time. I really think these responses are as viable as SHs and lead to much more fun from both side ans spectatorwise.
And you can win with Mech with:
2base hellbats
mass bf hellions
3base timing
mass BC
hellion/banshee
mass raven
you don't have to go raven turtle every game. Raven's are just so popular that people don't experiment with other things as much.
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The "responses" you talk about are in fact viable in a very specific timing. You can win immediately after the push (or a remaxed second push) but if you fail to do enough damages, SH remains the only possibility to deal with a maxed mech player. Trust me, zerg players don't play SH for fun, it's a very difficult and very counter intuitive style to play as a zerg (look at JD's game when he tries to play against mech, he just seems totally lost).
As for your 20 vipers thing :
20 ravens is 40 supplys -> OK
20 vikings is 40 supplys -> OK
15/20 tanks to deal wit the SH is 45 to 60 supplys -> you need less tanks than there is SH do deal with it
30 scvs -> don't need that much in late game
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On June 18 2014 01:35 Faust852 wrote:
So the zerg can't afford 20 vipers on 12+ gaz but the T can affort 20 ravens on 8 ? explains me that please.
I'm just trying to explain that there are more style against T mech than just crying about it and complaining it's imba.
T has combined upgrades. To get 3/3 air zerg need to invest : 1200/1200 more than T.
Mech army can be composed of gazless unit : hellbat, while zergling are useless vs mech, so every anti-mech units cost gaz.
Vipers cost 3 supply, you just can't afford to get 60 supply of an army than don't attack. And contrary to what you say above, Zerg need rather 25+ SH than 15 (or T just need 8-10 tank to deal with it, and even vs 25+ T need only 15 tank to deal with it). Moreover, vipers are not units that you can keep alive, unlike raven which never die with correct control, you don't need to expose raven because PDD last 240s, begin with 200 energy and regenerate energy twice faster than other energy units.
Even, if you have 40 drones no queen, with 25SH and 20 vipers you can have only 12 corruptors. T on the overside, with 20 vikings + 15 tank, he can have with CC 30 VCS so it makes p,my 115 supply, and he can have 5thor (30 supply) + 27 vikings and better Air upgrades.
Also, you suppose with 20 vipers you can grab 20 times and kill raven. The reality is you will grab a few raven, and T will back raven behind his thor/vikings while throwing PDD to negate corruptor/spore, and some seeker to force viper to back. T will have lost way less than Zerg
One PDD negate 20 shots, so if you have only 12 corruptors with their low speed rate, even with spores... Anyway, 12 corruptor die to vikings without PDD.
edit :
And yeah you need 4-5 vikings to kill a viper so 20 vikings kill around 4 vipers, but each volley, so you come to reach a raven : you lose 5 vipers, he grab one, corruptors kills the units grabed, vikings throw another volley, you lose 4 more vipers,... (grabbing 20 grab on the same time wont work cause you don't have enough corruptor to one shot 20 raven, and T will have the time to thrown done PDD and make raven unkillable) So you will lose 20 vipers to perform 5 grabs lol. And i don't count the thor which can AOE your vipers.
of course you can tank with your corruptor to lose less vipers but you have less and less firepower and if you have no corruptor left, graping is useless).
You can say make a lot of spores, but as spores make 15 dammage -4 (+3 armor), so you need 12 spores shot to one shot a raven. Obviously you can't make 12 spores that all hit the same target, and if you don't one shots, PDD negates 20 spores shots.
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I feel like Muta are really good against mass Raven. MASS muta that is. If he Seekers you just pick out the few ones and fly them into his slow Raven ball. Or you just fly away.
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Well I hate to say I told you so..but not really I guess I don't hate it... Nerfed widow mine.. very obvious mistake to nerf core unit of composition when matchup balanced (tvz) - buff hellbat transform? (give terran cheese..imba cheese now)... so the next move now is to renig this buff and let it be imba for z again?? Blizz incompetence so lol it's actually predictable..
Solution: Untransform - Un-fuck mine - back to balance pls.
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what? widow mine is still too strong imo. ridiculous strong. thank god Blizzard isn't listening to twitch chat opinions.
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On June 18 2014 07:12 DinoMight wrote:
I feel like Muta are really good against mass Raven. MASS muta that is. If he Seekers you just pick out the few ones and fly them into his slow Raven ball. Or you just fly away.
good terrans don't randomly spam seekers on mutas, turrets are the bigger threat. also, when you have 30+ muta it's actually harder to seeker suicide than when you have ~15-20 because mutas clump a lot and it's very difficult to select the right one(s). also, good terrans have +3 vikings with their ravens which make it much harder to poke in and out with muta flocks
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EPT
