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On August 01 2011 00:45 imSOZO wrote:
hey, i am a master level terran player who was once at the top of my master league playing about 5 hours a day, watching replays for 1 hour, and watching streams/tournaments for 1 hour. basically i was spending a ton of time. when i got a 2 week break during college i bumped my play up to 9-10 hours a day to get into the top rankings of us ladder(sidenote: i was eating fast food, candy, drinking alot of soda everyday, and i wasn't excersising at all). i was playing in a ton of tournaments and all of a sudden my forearms began to tighten up mainly in the extensor area and my wrist began to ache in pain. aching in the hands soon followed. i played with my wrist at the edge of the table with a small mouse called the razer orochi at 2000 dpi. i know i tense up alot when playing. i remember having this pain one time during beta but i took a 3 week break and it went away. this time this pain was constant all day everyday for 6 months. and here i am 6 months later with the same pain. i have been to doctors and they say its rsi. no carpell or tendonitis. just little soft tissue damage and rsi. so i took a month off and did physical therapy and nothing worked. it got a little better and i went back to play and made it worse. how long does it take for this to heal? and what am i going to have to do.. its extremely irritating. i may have to take a full month off from all computer use and start strengthening my arm/wrist/finger muscles. does anyone have experience with this? how do i get back to 100%?
i know tlo has had my same problem for a year now and from what ive read its all cleared up now.
You need to learn how to play without so much tension. Strengthening and rest may help, but the problem won't be fixed until you change the bad habit.
Work on improving your muscle tension awareness, not just in your forearms, but also the rest of your arms, shoulders, etc. Make a habit of noticing when muscles are tense and relaxing them. Learn the feel of relaxed mouse/keyboard use, and make a habit of it.
I'd say take a break from SC for at least a short while to work on that, then ease back into it slowly, making sure you aren't getting tense again.
On August 01 2011 03:37 Musketeer wrote:
The best pianists have to spend 10+ hours a day practicing. At high levels, that's 10 hours with a functional "APM" of at least 400. Piano keys take 20-100x more force to press (don't actually know how much), In other words, the amount of strain is probably hundreds of times more than what it requires to play Starcraft, and RSI are big problems with amateurs because of it.
There is ONE thing that professionals need to do to prevent carpal tunnel. it's the only thing that matters; and if you don't do, it, no amount of stretching and other techniques will ward it off. All you need to do is play (piano or Starcraft) with a relaxed body. It's harder than it sounds, but you hardly need to use any muscles at all to move a mouse or keyboard. Just relax - there's no need to perform any action with more effort than is required. Most players tense up in the heat of a game and clench all the muscles in their hands and wrists and shoulders to try to force themselves to go faster. It might feel good in the short term, but it's just going to cause injuries in the long term.
Watching players like TLO, it's completely utterly obvious why he has problems with his wrists. He's ridiculously tense when he plays. On the other hand, watch HuK;s stream and look at his mouse. He's touching it so, so, so lightly that the cursor just seems to flutter about the screen. Anyone have videos that show his mouse hand?
Exactly.
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On August 01 2011 03:37 Musketeer wrote:
The best pianists have to spend 10+ hours a day practicing. At high levels, that's 10 hours with a functional "APM" of at least 400. Piano keys take 20-100x more force to press (don't actually know how much), In other words, the amount of strain is probably hundreds of times more than what it requires to play Starcraft, and RSI are big problems with amateurs because of it.
There is ONE thing that professionals need to do to prevent carpal tunnel. it's the only thing that matters; and if you don't do, it, no amount of stretching and other techniques will ward it off. All you need to do is play (piano or Starcraft) with a relaxed body. It's harder than it sounds, but you hardly need to use any muscles at all to move a mouse or keyboard. Just relax - there's no need to perform any action with more effort than is required. Most players tense up in the heat of a game and clench all the muscles in their hands and wrists and shoulders to try to force themselves to go faster. It might feel good in the short term, but it's just going to cause injuries in the long term.
Watching players like TLO, it's completely utterly obvious why he has problems with his wrists. He's ridiculously tense when he plays. On the other hand, watch HuK;s stream and look at his mouse. He's touching it so, so, so lightly that the cursor just seems to flutter about the screen. Anyone have videos that show his mouse hand?
ya i have very bad pain for past 6 months. i was first post on this thread, u can read my story. but i tense up a ton all game. after a year of playing i just got injured so bad
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On August 01 2011 03:37 Musketeer wrote:
On the other hand, watch HuK;s stream and look at his mouse. He's touching it so, so, so lightly that the cursor just seems to flutter about the screen.
I don't watch Huk's stream, but this is also the direction I'm trying to move towards. I found I had to put in a lot of effort increasing the strength of my ring and pinky finger to be able to do it though. People try to use the mouse with just their wrist, but the wrist doesn't provide enough strength, which is why they have to tense up in order to get accuracy. Using the wrist together with your fingers lets you use a lot more muscles for the same motions, which increases strength and precision.
Also, if your muscles are weak and flabby, you're going to have no way to stop your motion accurately without tensing them up. As my pinky and ring fingers get stronger though, I feel like the mouse is becoming weightless and momentumless and I simply don't have to strain to achieve the same motions.
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On August 01 2011 03:52 imSOZO wrote:
no they never did. 3 doctors i went to kinda sucked. i also have pain above the elbow and inside the elbow above the inner forearm area. what exactly is an emg? i may need to go to a 4th doctor...
It's just a test they use to measure your nerve conduction or something like that so they can see if a nerve is damaged or is being pinched/pressured.
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On August 01 2011 03:52 imSOZO wrote:
no they never did. 3 doctors i went to kinda sucked. i also have pain above the elbow and inside the elbow above the inner forearm area. what exactly is an emg? i may need to go to a 4th doctor...
Go to a specialist, you seem to have gotten to 3 really not so nice docs  . EMG -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromyography
On August 01 2011 03:37 Musketeer wrote:
The best pianists have to spend 10+ hours a day practicing. At high levels, that's 10 hours with a functional "APM" of at least 400. Piano keys take 20-100x more force to press (don't actually know how much), In other words, the amount of strain is probably hundreds of times more than what it requires to play Starcraft, and RSI are big problems with amateurs because of it.
The first thing you learn when you want to start the piano is hand movement and positioning (which is what most gamers lack off).
I play keyboard (and learnd piano the classic way for about 2 years) and when i played for some hours, my handmovment in sc2 feels way more fluent and "better"(in terms of how many wrist/hand feels after long games). Why? I figured out that i transition my "pianohand" to my keyboard and mouse hand. I will make a cup with my palm and fingers automatically and have straight shoulders which are relaxed.
Those things help piano players a lot and things like that prevent serious longterm damage.
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I agree, it's extremely important to be relaxed when playing. It not only helps in preventing injuries but also improves your play. A good posture and a calm mind are the first steps to playing without stress. Awareness of you body is also really helpful.
Stretching (correctly) and giving your body time to recover also help.
Stress in general is just not good for you body. Bad eating and sleeping habits together with very little body exercise (common elements in a gamers life it seems) are all causes of stress so working on those areas can also help prevent these injuries and improve your game. It's part of the reason why pro gamers work out, you keep your body healthy and your mind calm and you play better and injury free.
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oh i c. ill look into that. thanks bro
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Some of that advice in OP not so good...
Your forearm shouldn't touch anything. All that will do is restrict blood flow or put pressure on tendons.
Spreading out your mouse and keyboard adds no benefit over having them close together in terms of injury prevention.
Playing guitar to rest your hands after long hours of play sounds to be counter productive.
Also, stretching strait away when you feel your wrist getting sore is not a good idea with CTS. If you stretch out an inflamed tendon, it won't aid in getting rid of the tingles. If you have carpal tunnel for real, you should probably consider hot and cold water. If you hand is falling asleep, your nerve is pinched from inflammation, so icing it to reduce swelling, and switching to warm water to relax the tendons will help most. RSI is different, and has nothing to do with your nerves. Stretching will help you with that, much like cramps in your calves from running.
The best thing you can do to prevent these issues is to focus hard on playing completely relaxed. The more you tense up, the bigger you are at risk of getting injured. This goes for anything physical. People who tense up in car wrecks get hurt, sprinters who tense up tear ligaments, musicians who tense their hands get RSI (much like people with a mouse and keyboard that are looking at this).
If you are trying to play faster, then let your body move faster for you. Relaxation is the best thing for muscles. If you want to play like the pros, then get in good physical shape. It will help you relax easier, and greatly help prevent, or cure, injury.
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On August 01 2011 04:26 Gooey wrote:
Some of that advice in OP not so good...
Your forearm shouldn't touch anything. All that will do is restrict blood flow or put pressure on tendons.
Spreading out your mouse and keyboard adds no benefit over having them close together in terms of injury prevention.
Playing guitar to rest your hands after long hours of play sounds to be counter productive.
Also, stretching strait away when you feel your wrist getting sore is not a good idea with CTS. If you stretch out an inflamed tendon, it won't aid in getting rid of the tingles. If you have carpal tunnel for real, you should probably consider hot and cold water. If you hand is falling asleep, your nerve is pinched from inflammation, so icing it to reduce swelling, and switching to warm water to relax the tendons will help most. RSI is different, and has nothing to do with your nerves. Stretching will help you with that, much like cramps in your calves from running.
The best thing you can do to prevent these issues is to focus hard on playing completely relaxed. The more you tense up, the bigger you are at risk of getting injured. This goes for anything physical. People who tense up in car wrecks get hurt, sprinters who tense up tear ligaments, musicians who tense their hands get RSI (much like people with a mouse and keyboard that are looking at this).
If you are trying to play faster, then let your body move faster for you. Relaxation is the best thing for muscles. If you want to play like the pros, then get in good physical shape. It will help you relax easier, and greatly help prevent, or cure, injury.
"Your forearm shouldn't touch anything" how do you do that?
"Also, stretching strait away when you feel your wrist getting sore is not a good idea with CTS"
It's not about 'what to do when you have cts' its more about 'what to do to not get cts', if you know what I mean.
'Playing guitar to rest your hands' Obviously you don't play guitar to "rest your hands". you get repetitive strain injury from repetitive strain. duh. simply moving your muscles in different ways can reduce tension ALOT.
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On August 01 2011 05:29 opiemonster wrote:
"Your forearm shouldn't touch anything" how do you do that?
If you're sitting with a good posture, and you've got your wrist positioned on a pivot point, that pivot point will also bear the weight of your forearm, which will naturally be suspended above the table in order to reach your body. If you even have the slack in your arm to lay your forearm on the table, you're either slouching, or your chair is too low and should be adjusted.
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My elbows touch my arm rest on my chair and only my elbows. My forearms don't touch anything. The doctor told me not to have my forearm laying on the desk the desk or arm rest while playing. The elbow and bone on the palm of my hand are the only things that touch now.
I agree with the prevention of injury with stretching, which is the same in every type of physically strenuous activity. It just sounded like in the "extras" section where the advice was given, that it was in the context that you are already carrying the injury. That was the reason for my response.
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On August 01 2011 06:16 Gooey wrote:
My elbows touch my arm rest on my chair and only my elbows. My forearms don't touch anything. The doctor told me not to have my forearm laying on the desk the desk or arm rest while playing. The elbow and bone on the palm of my hand are the only things that touch now.
the elbow should actually not be touching anything. doctors have given me advice that's contradicting what you've been told, apparently. forearms resting such that the hands are nearly flush with the keyboard is desired, but laying elbows on anything is not. there shouldn't be stress on the shoulders either, which is why the forearms should be in a resting position. i'm not sure what tendons you're stressing by laying your forearms on the table like you mentioned in a previous post, but i think it's apparent that both resting your arms and pivoting on the nerve that crosses the point where the elbows rests is not good. from related experience, the bone supporting the nerve at the elbow is the 2nd target for surgery related to CTS. the first target is the pair of tendons housing a nerve that are right above the bone-nub on the inside of the wrist that aid in supporting the thumb.
also, i think the point about doing things like playing guitar was provided to emphasize varying the movement of muscles and tendons. it also does a great job with stretching and flexibility as well. i don't think it was intended to go along with the necessity of hand/wrist R&R, since that would make no sense as was pointed out :|
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like a stupid Microsoft gaming mouse though
I have to disagree, my Razor Lachesis was giving me severe wrist pain. I have been feeling good since I switched back to my Microsoft Sidewinder.
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Thanks for the write-up! I have never had many problems with gaming-related injuries myself, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on
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On August 01 2011 06:16 Gooey wrote:
My elbows touch my arm rest on my chair and only my elbows. My forearms don't touch anything. The doctor told me not to have my forearm laying on the desk the desk or arm rest while playing. The elbow and bone on the palm of my hand are the only things that touch now.
I agree with the prevention of injury with stretching, which is the same in every type of physically strenuous activity. It just sounded like in the "extras" section where the advice was given, that it was in the context that you are already carrying the injury. That was the reason for my response.
You have to watch out resting your elbow on anything. You are actually cutting off the bloodflow through the Ulnar nerve and can easily get cubital tunnel syndrome or another ulnar nerve related RSI. It's the sister RSI of carpal tunnel, the nerve that gives feeling in the pinky and half of the 4th finger (while the Carpal tunnel controls the rest). If you ever get a tingling sensation in these fingers it's from your elbow if its being rested (think funny bone sensation, thats the ulnar nerve)
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OP forgets that the most important thing to avoid RSI is back posture... if that is correct, it really doesn't matter what other things you do half way...
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my tips:
DO NOT get a cordless mouse, the weight from the batteries = extra work for muscles
DO learn how to use the mouse with your other hand for non-gaming. You will quickly adapt. At work I use the mouse left-handed (with right-handed mouse button setup). At home I only use right hand for gaming.
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On August 01 2011 03:37 Musketeer wrote:
The best pianists have to spend 10+ hours a day practicing. At high levels, that's 10 hours with a functional "APM" of at least 400. Piano keys take 20-100x more force to press (don't actually know how much), In other words, the amount of strain is probably hundreds of times more than what it requires to play Starcraft, and RSI are big problems with amateurs because of it.
There is ONE thing that professionals need to do to prevent carpal tunnel. it's the only thing that matters; and if you don't do, it, no amount of stretching and other techniques will ward it off. All you need to do is play (piano or Starcraft) with a relaxed body. It's harder than it sounds, but you hardly need to use any muscles at all to move a mouse or keyboard. Just relax - there's no need to perform any action with more effort than is required. Most players tense up in the heat of a game and clench all the muscles in their hands and wrists and shoulders to try to force themselves to go faster. It might feel good in the short term, but it's just going to cause injuries in the long term.
Watching players like TLO, it's completely utterly obvious why he has problems with his wrists. He's ridiculously tense when he plays. On the other hand, watch HuK;s stream and look at his mouse. He's touching it so, so, so lightly that the cursor just seems to flutter about the screen. Anyone have videos that show his mouse hand?
This advice if a moot point. Relaxing comes at a cost... you need strength and flexibility in the muscles involved in typing to 'relax'; on the same vein, if you have strength and flexibility in such muscles -- from the back to the finger tips -- I don't think you'll ever get RSI.
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i play at 4500 dpi and 50% in game sensitivity with acceleration
is this good for long term performance/health in wrist?
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this guide is decent but it lacks alot of important things. The OP treats carpal tunnel as something that can be prevented solely with proper wrist positioning. But the causes of carpal tunnel and other wrist injuries arise from your entire body, not just your wrists.
For example if your postures poor, you put unnecessary strain on your wrists. The same goes for your mouse, keyboard, and chair setup. If your chairs too low it will strain your wrist, if your mouse is too far away, it will damage your wrist.
Stretch before you play, keep your back straight while playing (imagine a string going from the top of your head to the ceiling.) Stay relaxed. Sit in your playing position, and simply feel if there is strain on your body. Then adjust your chair, mouse, keyboard accordingly.
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EPT
