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On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote:
HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament.
Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool.
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On July 31 2011 01:48 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote:
HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that? HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament. Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool.
If MLG is losing money on venues then they are doing it wrong. Between gate and concessions they should be making a nice profit. HSC didn't have these revenue streams, so it actually hurt them in a sense.
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On July 31 2011 01:46 blacksheepwall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote:
HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that? HSC 3 clearly has substantially less overhead than an MLG event. They may also be paying a higher percentage of the money they raise into the prize pool, but it's pretty obvious that it's not totally fair to compare the two events because of the huge difference in production costs, etc.
It also means if you actually want to support the players themselves more than the corporations that exist to make money from their performances, you should buy streams and make donations to smaller lans like homestory, especially considering the quality of the games and commentary we saw with the last one.
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Why are people even trying to compare HSC to MLG? Different setting, overhead, event size, costs.... *facepalm*
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On July 31 2011 01:48 MarKeD wrote:
While everybody is throwing out unsubstantiated theories: iNcontroL and Sundance intentionally created drama in this thread to make sure it got noticed as much as possible.
well that's what happened. People went i hate incontrol im gonna buy memberships.
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On July 31 2011 01:50 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 01:48 zocktol wrote:On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote:
HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that? HSC was mainly based on volunteers for admin etc. HSC had not had to rent a venue. HSC only had a SC2 tournament. Those are some of the things, that make MLG need to have more money to put out the same or more money as a prize pool. If MLG is losing money on venues then they are doing it wrong. Between gate and concessions they should be making a nice profit. HSC didn't have these revenue streams, so it actually hurt them in a sense.
MLG probably were in the negative for the first few years of operation.
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At this point it feels like we (the enigmatic "esports") are reaching a critical mass of sheer numbers to really be a "business" anyway. It's not if someone will get rich off it, it's just a matter of who will. I don't know enough about business at all, but its sure that money is the worlds loudest voice when trying to be recognized by those who know nothing about what the Sc2/TL.net community is.
I'm still on the wall about deciding to "buy in" to all of it because money is thin for me. I will cast my vote with my time and tune in and watch national guard ads for you Sundance.
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On July 31 2011 01:47 hdan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 01:37 Fishriot wrote:On July 31 2011 01:25 hdan wrote:On July 30 2011 23:55 Fishriot wrote:On July 30 2011 23:50 hdan wrote:On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote:
what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually. They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000 You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct? Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event. Yes well you would hope that the subscriptions werent the only money that comes in to MLG too I was just trying to make a point about the ratio of money required to be spent on MLG stuff by us in order to increase the prizes earned by the players, you know supporting eSports and players etc. So for every $10 you spend on MLG merch, streams etc maybe 50c will go to the starcraft players themselves. Maybe, of course noone has exact numbers at all, So who knows. I think that the quality of games has been fantastic at MLG and the quality of the event has been steadily getting better I never questioned that I just think the players deserve better prizes and that compared to all other international tournaments MLG winners are drastically underpaid comparitively. How about just answer this, do you think it is fair that the players are asked to pay more to enter the tournament than they give out in prize pool? Do you think it is fair that MLG spends more money on bringing in 2 Code S players and a Code A player and a Code B player from Korea than the prize pool available, especially considering that many european teams eat the cost of sending their players over despite how small the prizes are for the actual players. Do you think that Starcraft is responsible for more than 30% of the various income (about what they gets with COD and Halo taking the other 70%) MLG gets.. whether through streams payments advertising whatever. My point is for all the fantastic games they are playing all the hard training they put in and the costs the teams themselves have to eat with entry fees flights and accomodation the players dont get enough money.
Lets Calculate, Its 70$? dollars to enter?(or is it 80? anyways) so each tournament they take in
70x 256 (pool players dont pay) = 17920 or
80x256 = 20480
this is for starcraft alone.
wach event they give out...14000? but what no one is discussing is the national championship where their handing out..(100,000? or more im not sure.)
so if during 6 events they make:
6x80x256 = 122880
and they give out
5x14000 + 100,000 = 190,000
where do you come up with " they dont give out everything the players pay in" They said the circuit events were lower prize pool BECAUSE of the big national championship.
Sundance has ALSO said, he would like to increase circuit events both in prize pool, as well as number of them next year.
I just think the claims of "you don't even pay the players back their entrance" is ludicris, and had to prove it wrong.
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I just think its funny how sundance makes it out to seem that MLG can't be supported unless they have 100,000 subscriptions...which means maybe they should be looking at the various views for each game and cut the fat...not to mention the world recession.....I mean there are about a million different things that can affect them and he basically creates fear mongering saying "if we don't get these numbers we aren't sustainable and we'll have to reduce the prize money"
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What the hell is this thread even? one page criticizing the move, the other praising sundance, the next talking about incontrol's gf, then 2 ridiculous comparisons of HSC and MLG, then back to incontrol's "apparent" hating.
This is ridiculous. Worst than LR threads when idra loses a game to his own negligence!
As far as this thread goes, its survival of the fittest. If MLG refuses to raise the prize pool unless 100,000 people sign up, there is plenty of other tournaments people are willing to go to and they probably would prefer them over tournaments which barely cover their flight/rent cost if they take 1st place! Don't halo/CoD players get massive prize pools because of it being a team game? Its time to cut costs then if Sc2 brings in more viewers(considering its main stage) with less demanding prize pools.
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On July 31 2011 01:43 vertical101 wrote:
HSC 3 have less sponsor,premium member and not big as MLG, but still manage to make half of prize pool of MLG-$14k - HSC3 $7K, why is that?
Because HSC 3 is one event hosted in a guys house whereas MLG has many events and has to pay for 100s of pcs and rent out buildings.
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On July 31 2011 01:34 iNcontroL wrote:Conspiracy theories only make you sound dumber  your evidence for me being involved in the decision making id laughable. Did you know Anna is about to be hired by several organizations I don't deal with? Odd... She's a girl right? Only way she Can get a job in esports is through me eh? Not the case. But I am wasting my time with you. You have always been a hater who gives nothing back. Keep at it bro!
Keep digging that hole of yours buddy. Should of stopped after the first line.
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On July 31 2011 01:58 SMD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 01:47 hdan wrote:On July 31 2011 01:37 Fishriot wrote:On July 31 2011 01:25 hdan wrote:On July 30 2011 23:55 Fishriot wrote:On July 30 2011 23:50 hdan wrote:On July 30 2011 23:33 Hamzilla wrote:
what the hell is so hard to understand. This is a million dollar investment. If you dont please the investors then you are done. MLG will be over. After a certain point the community needs to turn profits for them. I hate this damn evil corporation mentality that comes with TL/reddit. Guess what, if you wanna be legit we need an "evil corporation." Who do you think is making MLG possible...those evil investors.
Grow the heck up ppl, incontrol included. MLG is a legit business and e-sports needs that. 100,000 subscribers isnt some nice perk, its going to be necessary eventually. They need over $3,000,000 to pay more than $14,000 in prizes to the people that make them the majority of that $3,000,000, what a total joke, especially considering the players themselves already pay more than $14,000 in tournament entrance fees. Seems to me the only way to increase the players prize pool is to increase the players entrance fees, Maybe if they pay $150 each they can up the prize pool to $28,000 You sound like you think that the only expense that MLG has is paying out its Starcraft 2 players. You understand that in order to run an organization like MLG that employees, transportation, and venues also have to be paid for, correct? Thanks to the other people that finally understood the point I was trying to make, but in the mean time, you do realise that $14k is less than 0.5% of $3mil What my post said was that SC2 prize money wasn't their only expense. As has been stated many times previously in this thread, MLG's total prize pool (for all of their games, not just SC2) is over $800,000. That 14k you brought up is the prize pool from one event from one of their games. The subscriptions to MLG gold are to finance an entire year of events, not just a single event. Yes well you would hope that the subscriptions werent the only money that comes in to MLG too I was just trying to make a point about the ratio of money required to be spent on MLG stuff by us in order to increase the prizes earned by the players, you know supporting eSports and players etc. So for every $10 you spend on MLG merch, streams etc maybe 50c will go to the starcraft players themselves. Maybe, of course noone has exact numbers at all, So who knows. I think that the quality of games has been fantastic at MLG and the quality of the event has been steadily getting better I never questioned that I just think the players deserve better prizes and that compared to all other international tournaments MLG winners are drastically underpaid comparitively. How about just answer this, do you think it is fair that the players are asked to pay more to enter the tournament than they give out in prize pool? Do you think it is fair that MLG spends more money on bringing in 2 Code S players and a Code A player and a Code B player from Korea than the prize pool available, especially considering that many european teams eat the cost of sending their players over despite how small the prizes are for the actual players. Do you think that Starcraft is responsible for more than 30% of the various income (about what they gets with COD and Halo taking the other 70%) MLG gets.. whether through streams payments advertising whatever. My point is for all the fantastic games they are playing all the hard training they put in and the costs the teams themselves have to eat with entry fees flights and accomodation the players dont get enough money. Lets Calculate, Its 70$? dollars to enter?(or is it 80? anyways) so each tournament they take in 70x 256 (pool players dont pay) = 17920 or 80x256 = 20480 this is for starcraft alone. wach event they give out...14000? but what no one is discussing is the national championship where their handing out..(100,000? or more im not sure.) so if during 6 events they make: 6x80x256 = 122880 and they give out 5x14000 + 100,000 = 190,000 where do you come up with " they dont give out everything the players pay in" They said the circuit events were lower prize pool BECAUSE of the big national championship. Sundance has ALSO said, he would like to increase circuit events both in prize pool, as well as number of them next year. I just think the claims of "you don't even pay the players back their entrance" is ludicris, and had to prove it wrong.
Ok so their actual prize pool is $67,000 over 6 events so $11,000 per event. Do you think that is worthwhile compared to other international events, and that the players attending receive enough money, taking into account all the flights and accomodation the teams pay, the training each player puts in? What do you think the total payout over 6 events averages, Dreamhack, IEM, or GSL even, oh wait ,I think they all pay over $11,000 each just for first place. Hmm.
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The amount of entitlement going on here is staggering. Everyone wants a perfect product but is so quick to become enraged as soon as someone asks for money. Yes, I get that Sundance's statement is a bit obvious, but it doesn't somehow make it offensive.
Here's the other thing I wish more people would realize. Every single dime poured into competitive gaming, whether it be in production or prize pool, must in some form or another, be paid out by us, the consumers. Advertising is seen by people on the forum as some sort of magical manna from the sky dependent only on traffic volume. Not entirely true. The companies paying to have their names attached to events like MLG are only doing so because they expect to turn that much if not more of a profit off of us. But since there's only a finite amount of Stride gum I can buy, there's only a finite amount of ad revenue they're going to provide. If I want more out of MLG, there's only one other option, to provide them with membership money.
Basically, shut up and open your wallets. Most of you have plenty of money to afford a membership to a few leagues. And if you're one of the irritating "get more ads" people, then clearly you need to get your ass out there and buy a shitton of Stride and Dr. Pepper and whatever else it is sponsoring MLG because if money doesn't flow, neither will the games.
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I think it may be in poor taste to hold the prize pool hostage. I'm sure there's a different and better way to go about explaining the things that need to happen in order for a prize pool to increase significantly.
On the other hand I think incontrol jumped on this a little too hard and fast. Yes the prize pool isn't amazing but MLG is just starting to get its shit together. Columbus was the best event so far and it seems you expect the prize pool to triple overnight. You don't know the financial situation of MLG and what it needs to fulfill a larger prize pool. Again, Sundance may have gone about explaining that in the wrong way, but making cutesy sarcastic remarks doesn't help the situation.
If the rest of the season has the same success as Columbus then I'd agree the prize pool for next year needs a significant increase. With Columbus-quality events hitting 100k subs shouldn't be that hard imo.
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I bought a membership to this for 3 months and now I wish I hadn't. half of what you pay for you dont even get. I can't even get the VODs to show up in HD quality. Then they take away replays. Then I find out I can no longer have both streams up in HD... its like give me a break. You dont sell a product, tell your customers its one thing, then give them something completely different. The one saving grace is the live quality on ultra is probably as good as anything else.
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I don't see it as a problem for business doing something based on income, it's completely in their right to do it as it's a capitalistic world we live in and if you don't like it don't consume the product which is a great tournament.
Or heck, as a pro-gamer, don't use it.
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Its just funny that MLG overheads seem to be 10 times everyone elses.Im sure for 3 million in stream sales everyone else would increase their prize pools a hell of a lot more than MLG
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On July 31 2011 02:30 hdan wrote:
Its just funny that MLG overheads seem to be 10 times everyone elses.Im sure for 3 million in stream sales everyone else would increase their prize pools a hell of a lot more than MLG
you still don't get it after 40 pages? sc2 isn't the only game mlg has.
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The growth of ESPORTS requires contributions from both the community and the event sponsors. We can't just sit around wanting everything to be free and expect there to be an awesome event. Let's be frank and admit that we want ESPORTS as badly as they do.
MLG has done a great job so far. I'm confident that it will improve. Let's not overreact and cut off our noses to spite our face.
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EPT
