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On July 26 2011 14:36 Nightfall.589 wrote:
If the team wanted Puma, they should have contracted him.
When he's not working under contract, he has no ethical, or legal responsibility to let anyone else decide what he wants to do with his life.
Actually, from my understanding, ethics or moral responsibility depends on special cases. It would be pointless to have a topic of moral responsibility when it just ties in exactly with legal responsibility. Similarly it would be pointless to have a topic of moral responsibility if it applies in a general manner. Even in law, equitable remedies, i.e. those based on unconscionability, are dependent on the circumstances of the case.
So, I disagree. PuMa was a long-term player for TSL, and probably TSL's ace player. That status should imply that contracting him behind the back of TSL was already somewhat immoral. Obviously, EG can play the part of the "I'm just the man with the candy!" and lay the blame at PuMa's feet, but no, I think EG should have inquired about PuMa properly with TSL.
This is one of the first player transfers from a Korean team to an internationally-based team. I would have thought that it would be part of EG's implied professional responsibility to act graciously and foster good relations between the Korean and international scenes. I'm not saying that what EG did was illegal or hugely, hugely immoral. I'm just disappointed that they saw this opportunity to bum-rush TSL with an underhanded contract and didn't have the grace to refuse that dirty route.
Edit: I'm further disappointed that, as representatives of the international scene, they did us all a PR injustice with this transfer.
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On July 26 2011 09:13 Cloud92684 wrote:
Good to hear EG's side. About time to put this whole issue to rest.
Amen, time for everybody to move on
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No matter how you justify it, you poached him. You flat out poached him. I don't care but thats what you did and no matter how you tell the story, you still poached him.
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Thanks very much for your side, I personally never felt like you guys did anything wrong, and you approached it the way that PuMa wanted to approach it (with him going to Coach Lee and discussing the situation).
I feel like Coach Lee may have blown everything a little out of proportion, in the sense that he went so violently public, but i feel like it was a knee jerk reaction.
Ty very much again for explaining everything, EG hwaiting!!
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On July 26 2011 14:54 TheResidentEvil wrote:
No matter how you justify it, you poached him. You flat out poached him. I don't care but thats what you did and no matter how you tell the story, you poached him.
...They approached him and asked if he was interested in playing on their team. He very easily could have said no if he didn't want to, or he weren't interested or he just didn't feel like it would be the proper thing to do to TSL at the time.
The fact of the matter is that he said yes, asked more questions, and got more interested. I feel like if you're "poaching" someone, you have to steal something that actually belongs to someone else.
PuMa is free to make his own decisions. Nobody held a gun to his head.
Hopefully this opens the door for other koreans to go play on western teams, and play more actively in tournaments, so we don't have to stay up until 4am to watch anyone play...
I'm looking forward to the future of western sc2 teams because of this event
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On July 26 2011 14:43 Nubbinz wrote:
It's amazing that some people are upset that EG didn't speak with the TSL management / coaches first.
If they had done so (I also think these points were mentioned already) how are they to know that the management / coaches of TSL would actually inform Puma correctly in the first place or even tell Puma of an offer to join EG? Like someone mentioned early. They could have easily just offered him a contract immediately without word to him that EG was interested. They don't have to know TSL would inform PuMa.
All they have to do is make sure TSL gets their e-mail, or have a middleman that is fluent in Korean - someone who is not PuMa - inform TSL in person.
How would PuMa have learned that EG was interested in him? He was at NASL for an extended period of time and EG had plenty of opportunities to approach him with an offer (which they did without informing TSL beforehand).
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On July 26 2011 14:54 TheResidentEvil wrote:
No matter how you justify it, you poached him. You flat out poached him. I don't care but thats what you did and no matter how you tell the story, you still poached him.
Maybe you should write a poem and cry about it.
here is a tissue.
User was warned for this post
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he still doesn't realize the reason coach Lee was upset not because of Puma joining EG (well, he is but it's not the main problem). The main problem here is EG approach Puma without contacting the TSL manager first, regarding they were right or not, they are not supposed to do that.
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how can people still be upset about this? FXO/fou? TL and OGS? how are these different? If this isnt just TL fanboys vs EG fanboys then i cant understand how you could logically argue against EG's actions, especially in light of this post. And to the people talking about Milkis deserving an apology, translation is not black and white, as simple as it may seem (Watch the WoC) and Milkis is not just some random journalist, he works for TL, of course he has not interest in publishing an article that's favorable of EG. They are competitive teams and have been in the past. Can't people see that is why this issue has been really blown out of proportion?
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why didn't you just say this on WoC
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maybe you should read the part where it says i dont care..because i dont. These people can do whatever they want it and it dont bother me but don't play innocent and say we just did this and we just did that. What they did was poach him and they know it.
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On July 26 2011 14:59 TheResidentEvil wrote:
maybe you should read the part where it says i dont care..because i dont. These people can do whatever they want it and it dont bother me but don't play innocent and say we just did this and we just did that. What they did was poach him and they know it.
If you didn't care then you wouldn't take the time to post.
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On July 26 2011 14:45 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 14:36 Nightfall.589 wrote:
If the team wanted Puma, they should have contracted him.
When he's not working under contract, he has no ethical, or legal responsibility to let anyone else decide what he wants to do with his life. Actually, from my understanding, ethics or moral responsibility depends on special cases. It would be pointless to have a topic of moral responsibility when it just ties in exactly with legal responsibility. Similarly it would be pointless to have a topic of moral responsibility if it applies in a general manner. Even in law, equitable remedies, i.e. those based on unconscionability, are dependent on the circumstances of the case.
The thing is, he's not bound by a contract. If he wanted to walk away from TSL, and take up peddling fruit, he was entirely free to do that. If he wanted to walk away from TSL, and join another team, he was also free to do that.
It's the team's job to provide their players reason to stay on the team, just like it's an employer's job to provide their employees reasons to not quit (Mine's not doing a particularly good job of that, at the moment).
If you're not getting what you want out of a job, a team, a relationship, nobody has any right to think any less of you for leaving. Being in any one of those doesn't sign the rest of your life away to indentured servitude.
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or if i didnt care i would only read the first 2 paragraphs instead of the whole thing..because thats what i did. it takes no time to post.
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I was starting to like Puma. I hope he rests well, along with Idra.
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i was all for this transaction and viewed it positively until i read this statement. the point about "the best first step is for puma to talk to TSL......" was beat to death several times over. seeing that as the first step in a process that actually began when you informed puma that you're actively seeking a korean player is ridiculous. you seem to have done it the right way with every other team, just own up to fucking up this deal.
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On July 26 2011 15:05 GrimReefer wrote:
i was all for this transaction and viewed it positively until i read this statement. the point about "the best first step is for puma to talk to TSL......" was beat to death several times over. seeing that as the first step in a process that actually began when you informed puma that you're actively seeking a korean player is ridiculous. you seem to have done it the right way with every other team, just own up to fucking up this deal.
I am not currently employed under contract.
If another employer approached me today, with an offer to hire me, I wouldn't tell them to talk to my manager. I'd talk to the prospective employer. And then, maybe, I'd talk to my manager.
And they should consider themselves lucky if I didn't just give them my two weeks.
Having them talk to my manager, instead, would be the last thing in the world that I would consider.
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Good to hear your side, +1 for transparency.
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Why is this thread devolving into the previous Puma/EG thread? ><
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EG absolutely doesn't want to make enemies with, or offend, or disrespect, any Korean professional team
action speaks louder than words.
From experience, we all know the more the person has to explain and talk/write in length, the more likely they are just trying to cover up or over-compensate in order to seem more legit / less in the wrong when they know they've messed up but don't wanna admit it.
if they're really sorry, the'd decline from signing puma and initiate talks with TSL in the way TSL would approve. by signing Puma and then apologising is a joke. Apologising and then in the very next paragraph criticising TSL.
Thumbs down for EG and EG Alex.
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Nothing to be really said from here on out.
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EPT
