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EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism - Page 38

Forum Index > SC2 General
1623 CommentsPost a Reply
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Sixotanaka
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia191 Posts
July 26 2011 05:13 GMT
#741
+1 fan. You waited a long time to post that Puma wasn't contracted or receiving salary. However this is exactly what I wanted to hear from you guys. Thanks for being part of the community, we'll treat you nicely as long as you treat us nicely too .
Flowjo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States928 Posts
July 26 2011 05:14 GMT
#742
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


you mean you can't be serious? Idra is about it, Incontrol and Demuslim are both second tier
IMNestea's biggest fan.
arvind
Profile Joined February 2011
Singapore23 Posts
July 26 2011 05:14 GMT
#743
still -1 because of that Milkis incident
>>GO LIQUIDJINRO !! CODE S KOREA 2011<<
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
July 26 2011 05:14 GMT
#744
On July 26 2011 14:03 tyCe wrote:
Well, to be honest... I think the idea of letting the player approach the coach is really unprofessional. In my mind, it should be the organisation that approaches another to inquire about one of its players. You see this in football (not handegg) all the time. Clubs always complain when other clubs approach its players behind their backs and pretty much convince them or entice them to join and let the player broach the subject with their own clubs. It's not the proper procedure, and I don't blame TSL for feeling cheated out of this "transfer". I'm sure EG felt that they were more likely to get PuMa (or at least, on the cheap) if PuMa did the talking. If EG approached TSL, TSL would probably just sign PuMa with a contract immediately.

I don't think EG should deny its wrongdoing. It wasn't the proper procedure. It wasn't gentlemanly. EG shouldn't bleat that it's innocent as a lamb. The signing is secure anyway and EG knew what the PR risks were. Just cop it like a man, yo.


So if EG talked with TSL first, then TSL may have quickly had Puma sign a contract, and Puma would miss a great opportunity.

Anyways, I've already said this many times in this thread, but what this whole argument comes down to is what you believe is more important: the players or the organizations they are part of. If we believe the players are more important then we should be happy that EG did a good thing for Puma.
tyCe
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2542 Posts
July 26 2011 05:14 GMT
#745
On July 26 2011 13:59 happyness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:28 myth_au wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:21 happyness wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:07 myth_au wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:00 happyness wrote:
On July 26 2011 12:51 myth_au wrote:
On July 26 2011 12:48 mholden02 wrote:
On July 26 2011 12:40 hiphoppopotomus wrote:
Please, can someone explain what the big deal is here? EG offered puma a better situation than his unpaid position at TSL. He wasn't contracted, and he WANTED to go to EG. Yes, TSL is angry about this, but perhaps they should have been more business savvy and contracted him. This isn't a kiddy's playground anymore and business is business. Maybe TSL got shafted in this deal. boo fucking hoo. This should be a learning opportunity for everyone. I personally respect EG because they're adding legitimacy the scene instead of just relying on an unspoken code.

P.S.
if puma is happy with the trade isn't that what really matters? Aren't we in this for the players and not for the corporations that are backing them?


Exactly. So TSL are having troubles, were paying Puma NOTHING, EG said we'll fly you around the world and pay you a bunch of money, and Puma said yes.

OF COURSE!

Of course the TSL coach is mad, mad at himself for being SO STUPID as to not have one of the best players in the world under contract!!! He's fuming from embarrassment and personal incompetence.

Again, well done EG. Saw an opportunity, obeyed the rules, acquired an excellent player. Much respect. If your always worried about hurting peoples feelings shit will never get done.

And all the QQing about not contacting the coach is a bit much. This is business. Grow up. The TSL coach and Im sure the rest of the Korean teams are learning a very valuable lesson.



Dude business it is, but there is a good business method and a bad one. The point and lesson here is what EG did was not done properly.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Players changing teams (it happens and TSL accepts that) but its the method its done.


What is this "proper" method? That a coach needs to be contacted first? WHY SHOULD COACH LEE KNOW ABOUT IT BEFORE PUMA? Is Puma is not really a person but just an entity of a team? Is the head of an organization more important then the players?

Puma is an adult and can make his own choices. This whole deal shows that EG sees Puma as an individual while Mr. Lee sees him as part of his team, the team that he owns and that part of his property was stolen from him.



In my view, the "proper" way was to talk to coach lee first. Give him an opportunity to allow the transfer to go through. IF, and ONLY IF, it was not possible EG can then contact PuMa. PuMa is a person and can make his own choice, of course, but he is part of a team. Coach Lee invested time and effort and then someone comes along and sidelines him. If you were in coach Lee's position you'd be happy with that??

AG knew the circumstances and did what he did. I am merely saying it is a reflection on AG that is "i am happy to @#! with you if it is for my good". Shows lack of business ethics.


Puma is an individual first, and a team member second. That's how I see it at least. Players aren't children and teams should be able to extend offers to them. I could see your argument if Puma was a thing, but he isn't and should be able to be talked to on an individual basis.

Of course Coach Lee would be unhappy. But he really can only blame himself for having an extremely talented player not being paid anything and not being under contract.

AG's attitude simply shows that he feels Puma doesn't belong to coach Lee so he doesn't need permission. And that isn't unethical at all.


I am happy to disagree with you. All i was saying is AG knew Coach Lee invested time and effort and showed him little, if any, respect in his action.

AGAIN, i am not against PuMa joing EG or any team which betters him just it could have been done better.

From my understanding, this is the first transfer/heading hunting by EG in korea, and it was doen poorly. left a 19 yo to talk to a manager.

It really gave no options to Coach Lee. I do feel sorry for him. If you agreee with the way AG has done it, imo, you accept and encourage aggressive and underhanded business tactics. Again it is up to you whether you think it is are pro or against it.


I guess I just have a different philosophy. EG was simply offering an individual a good opportunity and they let him consult his team before he agreed to anything. I don't see how extending offers is aggressive or underhanded.

People are offered better jobs all the time, and most of the time the employer making the offer doesn't try to get permission from the person's current employer. In fact, most businesses would try to get that person to sign something right away, while AG was respectful enough to let Puma think about it and have him talk with his coach.

You should know that employers that do that and important employees that change jobs in such circumstances are viewed with contempt in that business area. However, having this happen in professional sport is worse because of the public scope of the transfer.

For instance, FC Barcelona plays the most fluid football (not handegg) in the world. Arsenal FC plays a similar style. Accordingly, in the past, many Arsenal FC fans were also fans of FC Barcelona. However, FC Barcelona has been tracking Arsenal FC's star player, Fabregas, for several years, and have often made public comments about a possible transfer without officially approaching Arsenal FC. Accordingly, although FC Barcelona are the best team in the world, have a fantastic youth football system and even sponsor UNICEF (instead of having Bwin sponsor them for 100m euros or w/e - i.e. they forgo a huge amount of potential revenue for charitable purposes), they have never had so many anti-fans as they do today. Obviously with success, breeds contempt, but the Fabregas saga is a major reason for the dislike against FC Barcelona today.
Betrayed by EG.BuK
trikshun
Profile Joined October 2010
United States437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-26 05:16:04
July 26 2011 05:15 GMT
#746
On July 26 2011 14:14 Flowjo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


you mean you can't be serious? Idra is about it, Incontrol and Demuslim are both second tier

Demuslim is one of the best terrans in Europe If not 2nd best after thorzain. His only weak MU is TvZ but a lot of terrans are having problems with Z
domane
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada1606 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 20:44:20
July 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#747
On July 26 2011 10:43 starcraft2rush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 10:40 jupidar wrote:
Why would EG contact TSL in the first step? That makes no sense.


because if they had done that...most likely they would not have gotten Puma on their roster.
Puma wasn't under a contract so EG would have still gotten him, if they had first contacted TSL.
pt
Profile Joined November 2010
United States813 Posts
July 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#748
So why the hell did CellTech make that poll?
EG-TL!
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
July 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#749
On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners



Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.


Sen, Morrow, Dimaga and Moonglade are all much more accomplished than Machine.

Don't let your fanboyism get in the way of your reasoning.
Flowjo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States928 Posts
July 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#750
On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners



Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.


Machine a favorite? Bro trust me, I love machine, I think he's an amazing guy, but your saying he has better chance then mma/boxer? Boxer went 8-1 in NASL defeating idra in the process and lost to MC which is no shame.
IMNestea's biggest fan.
Juanald
Profile Joined February 2011
United States354 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-26 05:18:21
July 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#751
On July 26 2011 14:06 Condor Hero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners



Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.

who considers machine a favorite for mlg anaheim?
I love machine and have a lot of respect for anyone who was a bw player but if thats really your opinion then youre quite clueless


please theres no need to insult people with different opinions. a lot of people including myself consider machine to be a clear favorite. i think this tourney the foreign scene is gonna really surprise a lot of the haters just like huk proved the haters wrong at dreamhack.

Group A - Haypro , Group B idra Group C -Drewbie Group D Machine

at least 2 EG players are gonna advance 1 liquid and 1 coL (cruncher or drewbie) you heard it here first.


On July 26 2011 14:16 Dakkas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners



Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.


Sen, Morrow, Dimaga and Moonglade are all much more accomplished than Machine.

Don't let your fanboyism get in the way of your reasoning.


your entitled to your opinion

i put my money on MoOnGlaDe EG.Machine coL.CatZ
"hey it could happen!" ~ angels n the outfield
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
July 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#752
On July 26 2011 12:31 Synwave wrote:
Nice to hear this side of the story but I still don't understand why you would approach Puma first and not his coach. The basis of this whole story is that
1) EG approached puma first to find out if he would be interested
2) he said he wanted to talk to Mr Lee before EG did
3) EG agreed to this and then things went to PR hell because Mr Lee went to press

I get that and I think most the people that have followed this story get that. Speaking strictly for myself I must say the issue I had with this is that EG didn't approach the coach first period. EG approached the player to see if there was interest first.

I voted 0, Im still a fan. Next time approach the coach first though or that will shift to a -1.


What I seem to get from this is that they used Puma as the messenger to start talks and it was an honest mistake. Either way, I'm sure EG will learn from this haha.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
Sayer
Profile Joined August 2009
United States403 Posts
July 26 2011 05:17 GMT
#753
A rule applicable to daily life: always hear both side of the story.

Nice to hear from the EG side. Yeah, there are some condtradicting stories, but I can put it aside now (not that I cared so much)..
Flowjo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States928 Posts
July 26 2011 05:18 GMT
#754
On July 26 2011 14:15 trikshun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:14 Flowjo wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


you mean you can't be serious? Idra is about it, Incontrol and Demuslim are both second tier

Demuslim is one of the best terrans in Europe If not 2nd best after thorzain. His only weak MU is TvZ but a lot of terrans are having problems with Z


Top tier Foreigner yea, but that doesn't necessarily mean top tier as much of the top tier is filled with Koreans and Naniwa, Thorzain, Idra, Sen , and a couple others
IMNestea's biggest fan.
OPL3SA2
Profile Joined April 2011
United States378 Posts
July 26 2011 05:19 GMT
#755
It's kind of weird to publicly apologize while at the same time saying you did nothing wrong. Personally I agree that you did nothing wrong, and apologizing is giving the other side of the argument merit.

Personally I think Mr. Lee should apologize for going into public channels so quickly. That was the most unprofessional thing about this entire episode.
Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?
Dakkas
Profile Joined October 2010
2550 Posts
July 26 2011 05:19 GMT
#756
On July 26 2011 14:16 Juanald wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:06 Condor Hero wrote:
On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners



Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.

who considers machine a favorite for mlg anaheim?
I love machine and have a lot of respect for anyone who was a bw player but if thats really your opinion then youre quite clueless


please theres no need to insult people with different opinions. a lot of people including myself consider machine to be a clear favorite. i think this tourney the foreign scene is gonna really surprise a lot of the haters just like huk proved the haters wrong at dreamhack.

Group A - Haypro , Group B idra Group C -Drewbie Group D Machine

at least 2 EG players are gonna advance 1 liquid and 1 coL (cruncher or drewbie) you heard it here first.


Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 14:16 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.




huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?


You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners



Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.


Sen, Morrow, Dimaga and Moonglade are all much more accomplished than Machine.

Don't let your fanboyism get in the way of your reasoning.


your entitled to your opinion

i put my money on MoOnGlaDe EG.Machine coL.CatZ


Yeah you're just trolling if you're saying that's my opinion.
cronaldo5909
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (South)15 Posts
July 26 2011 05:21 GMT
#757
The point is, TSL didn't get a choice because Puma had already decided. Not saying we should blame EG for that but really there is no doubt TSL would feel very disappointed by this move during a time of rebuilding after Fruitdealer/Trickster's move to Startale.

I feel sympathy for TSL, they need to cheer up.
OPL3SA2
Profile Joined April 2011
United States378 Posts
July 26 2011 05:21 GMT
#758
The only thing that EG did that they should take blame for is letting Puma be the first to tell his team. And really, that's a learning experience thing. They'll never let another player initiate contact again, because the result is something less than professional.

If these players had agents, it would have never happened.
Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?
Nithix
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States184 Posts
July 26 2011 05:21 GMT
#759
I think its pretty unfortunate that all of this drama occured, but we must move on. Honestly, maybe a "KeSPA 2" is in order. Or some lighter version of it, I hope. I think everyone should just talk to the coaches straight up to provide a fair trading environment. Whether or not everything appears to be "underhand/sniping" or not, everything should be more transparent for all of the teams.
Not even death can save you from me. - Diablo
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
July 26 2011 05:22 GMT
#760
On July 26 2011 14:03 tyCe wrote:
Well, to be honest... I think the idea of letting the player approach the coach is really unprofessional. In my mind, it should be the organisation that approaches another to inquire about one of its players. You see this in football (not handegg) all the time. Clubs always complain when other clubs approach its players behind their backs and pretty much convince them or entice them to join and let the player broach the subject with their own clubs. It's not the proper procedure, and I don't blame TSL for feeling cheated out of this "transfer". I'm sure EG felt that they were more likely to get PuMa (or at least, on the cheap) if PuMa did the talking. If EG approached TSL, TSL would probably just sign PuMa with a contract immediately.

I don't think EG should deny its wrongdoing. It wasn't the proper procedure. It wasn't gentlemanly. EG shouldn't bleat that it's innocent as a lamb. The signing is secure anyway and EG knew what the PR risks were. Just cop it like a man, yo.


This kind of bullshit argument is getting thrown around a lot. You cannot in anyway compare any professional sport to SC2 like this. Football Clubs operate in multiple professional leagues that govern how the clubs that agreed by contractual obligation as a condition to enter said league to follow their regulations put in place to allow for fair competition. It's not the proper procedure for them because it's in their fucking contracts, not some honor code or some misguided notion that's its the polite way to do business. I can assure none of those teams give a shit about manners when there's potentially millions of dollars on the line and a star player to boot.

There is no such organisation in SC2. Who is the FA, FIFA or UEFA of SC2? There isn't any. Stop pretending it's relevant in the slightest.
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