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Atleast there seems to be no schemes under the surface, since it's pretty much as you said as far as I can tell.
You will have to bear with some antifans for some time though, people wont forget this for a while..
Alex probally isn't going to see this, but w/e
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On July 26 2011 13:42 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:37 StickNMove wrote:On July 26 2011 13:17 iamthedave wrote:On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma. An idiot responsible in large part for Puma being where he is today. But don't worry, as a result of this an era of draconian contracts will surely be brought into the Korean scene, locking it up so tight something like this will never, ever happen again! I disagree. He is not responsible in any part for where Puma is today. The player is solely responsible for his own performance. It is the player who wakes up everyday and dedicates his own time to his sport in an effort to improve himself. If a player fails to do this and suffers by becoming a bad player do you blame the coach? No, the player is responsible for his own success and his own failure. It's really that simple. Puma owes nothing to the TSL coach. And quite frankly, their management is obviously delusional after watching so many players from TSL leave in mass. based on your logic, why are there even coaches at all?
Coaches dont make the players. Players make themselves through their own desire and hard work. You cant teach a player to be great, he must teach himself.
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On July 26 2011 13:51 Laurence wrote:
The fundamental issue was that they approached PuMa before they approached TSL. This article changes nothing with regards to that issue.
Not sure how that view is held. The team has no say in what Puma does or does not do as he has no contract. Even if you made a deal with TSL, Puma could just turn around and say "NO". The only person with power in this situation was Puma. Thus he is your first contact as without his support their is no deal.
Anyway enough from me on it. You can't change people's opinion on the internet, so have at it!
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On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.
huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious? 
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At least you're consistent with how you think its okay to do business. I'm dizzy now from reading all the spin in that post.
GL Puma
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On July 26 2011 13:54 StickNMove wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:42 Condor Hero wrote:On July 26 2011 13:37 StickNMove wrote:On July 26 2011 13:17 iamthedave wrote:On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma. An idiot responsible in large part for Puma being where he is today. But don't worry, as a result of this an era of draconian contracts will surely be brought into the Korean scene, locking it up so tight something like this will never, ever happen again! I disagree. He is not responsible in any part for where Puma is today. The player is solely responsible for his own performance. It is the player who wakes up everyday and dedicates his own time to his sport in an effort to improve himself. If a player fails to do this and suffers by becoming a bad player do you blame the coach? No, the player is responsible for his own success and his own failure. It's really that simple. Puma owes nothing to the TSL coach. And quite frankly, their management is obviously delusional after watching so many players from TSL leave in mass. based on your logic, why are there even coaches at all? Coaches dont make the players. Players make themselves through their own desire and hard work. You cant teach a player to be great, he must teach himself.
still doesnt answer my question
On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.
huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?
please, EG is quite mediocore besides Idra, and its not like Idra improved since he joined EG
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On July 26 2011 13:28 myth_au wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:21 happyness wrote:On July 26 2011 13:07 myth_au wrote:On July 26 2011 13:00 happyness wrote:On July 26 2011 12:51 myth_au wrote:On July 26 2011 12:48 mholden02 wrote:On July 26 2011 12:40 hiphoppopotomus wrote:
Please, can someone explain what the big deal is here? EG offered puma a better situation than his unpaid position at TSL. He wasn't contracted, and he WANTED to go to EG. Yes, TSL is angry about this, but perhaps they should have been more business savvy and contracted him. This isn't a kiddy's playground anymore and business is business. Maybe TSL got shafted in this deal. boo fucking hoo. This should be a learning opportunity for everyone. I personally respect EG because they're adding legitimacy the scene instead of just relying on an unspoken code.
P.S.
if puma is happy with the trade isn't that what really matters? Aren't we in this for the players and not for the corporations that are backing them? Exactly. So TSL are having troubles, were paying Puma NOTHING, EG said we'll fly you around the world and pay you a bunch of money, and Puma said yes. OF COURSE! Of course the TSL coach is mad, mad at himself for being SO STUPID as to not have one of the best players in the world under contract!!! He's fuming from embarrassment and personal incompetence. Again, well done EG. Saw an opportunity, obeyed the rules, acquired an excellent player. Much respect. If your always worried about hurting peoples feelings shit will never get done. And all the QQing about not contacting the coach is a bit much. This is business. Grow up. The TSL coach and Im sure the rest of the Korean teams are learning a very valuable lesson. Dude business it is, but there is a good business method and a bad one. The point and lesson here is what EG did was not done properly. I don't think anyone has a problem with Players changing teams (it happens and TSL accepts that) but its the method its done. What is this "proper" method? That a coach needs to be contacted first? WHY SHOULD COACH LEE KNOW ABOUT IT BEFORE PUMA? Is Puma is not really a person but just an entity of a team? Is the head of an organization more important then the players? Puma is an adult and can make his own choices. This whole deal shows that EG sees Puma as an individual while Mr. Lee sees him as part of his team, the team that he owns and that part of his property was stolen from him. In my view, the "proper" way was to talk to coach lee first. Give him an opportunity to allow the transfer to go through. IF, and ONLY IF, it was not possible EG can then contact PuMa. PuMa is a person and can make his own choice, of course, but he is part of a team. Coach Lee invested time and effort and then someone comes along and sidelines him. If you were in coach Lee's position you'd be happy with that?? AG knew the circumstances and did what he did. I am merely saying it is a reflection on AG that is "i am happy to @#! with you if it is for my good". Shows lack of business ethics. Puma is an individual first, and a team member second. That's how I see it at least. Players aren't children and teams should be able to extend offers to them. I could see your argument if Puma was a thing, but he isn't and should be able to be talked to on an individual basis. Of course Coach Lee would be unhappy. But he really can only blame himself for having an extremely talented player not being paid anything and not being under contract. AG's attitude simply shows that he feels Puma doesn't belong to coach Lee so he doesn't need permission. And that isn't unethical at all. I am happy to disagree with you. All i was saying is AG knew Coach Lee invested time and effort and showed him little, if any, respect in his action. AGAIN, i am not against PuMa joing EG or any team which betters him just it could have been done better. From my understanding, this is the first transfer/heading hunting by EG in korea, and it was doen poorly. left a 19 yo to talk to a manager. It really gave no options to Coach Lee. I do feel sorry for him. If you agreee with the way AG has done it, imo, you accept and encourage aggressive and underhanded business tactics. Again it is up to you whether you think it is are pro or against it.
I guess I just have a different philosophy. EG was simply offering an individual a good opportunity and they let him consult his team before he agreed to anything. I don't see how extending offers is aggressive or underhanded.
People are offered better jobs all the time, and most of the time the employer making the offer doesn't try to get permission from the person's current employer. In fact, most businesses would try to get that person to sign something right away, while AG was respectful enough to let Puma think about it and have him talk with his coach.
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On July 26 2011 13:54 StickNMove wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:42 Condor Hero wrote:On July 26 2011 13:37 StickNMove wrote:On July 26 2011 13:17 iamthedave wrote:On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma. An idiot responsible in large part for Puma being where he is today. But don't worry, as a result of this an era of draconian contracts will surely be brought into the Korean scene, locking it up so tight something like this will never, ever happen again! I disagree. He is not responsible in any part for where Puma is today. The player is solely responsible for his own performance. It is the player who wakes up everyday and dedicates his own time to his sport in an effort to improve himself. If a player fails to do this and suffers by becoming a bad player do you blame the coach? No, the player is responsible for his own success and his own failure. It's really that simple. Puma owes nothing to the TSL coach. And quite frankly, their management is obviously delusional after watching so many players from TSL leave in mass. based on your logic, why are there even coaches at all? Coaches dont make the players. Players make themselves through their own desire and hard work. You cant teach a player to be great, he must teach himself.
I wonder why Koreans, who are #1 in the world, even bother with coaches then. I'm surprised you're continuing with this horrible argument. It's based on theoretically nice sound things like "hard work equals success." Well, of course it does. But you're totally discounting the role of the coach, simply to support your calling him an idiot. You're actually making a terrible argument to justify an insult.
If everyday was "blindly believe someone day," I'll take Tastosis' word over yours about the value of coaches, as well as their positive remarks about Coach Lee.
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On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.
huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious?
You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners
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I never cared about them signing puma, their actions with the PR mess is what made me disgusted with them. GL to them and Puma in the future I guess.
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Well, to be honest... I think the idea of letting the player approach the coach is really unprofessional. In my mind, it should be the organisation that approaches another to inquire about one of its players. You see this in football (not handegg) all the time. Clubs always complain when other clubs approach its players behind their backs and pretty much convince them or entice them to join and let the player broach the subject with their own clubs. It's not the proper procedure, and I don't blame TSL for feeling cheated out of this "transfer". I'm sure EG felt that they were more likely to get PuMa (or at least, on the cheap) if PuMa did the talking. If EG approached TSL, TSL would probably just sign PuMa with a contract immediately.
I don't think EG should deny its wrongdoing. It wasn't the proper procedure. It wasn't gentlemanly. EG shouldn't bleat that it's innocent as a lamb. The signing is secure anyway and EG knew what the PR risks were. Just cop it like a man, yo.
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On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.
huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious? You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners
Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.
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You're basically blaming everything on Puma and TSL. Why you departed from your policy of contacting management first rather than a player and holding good discussions is really quite the question. Because by having Puma make the decision by himself, then waiting for him to initiate contact with his coach, you left TSL out of the discussion entirely. Because by the time TSL even knew there was a discussion, the decision had already been made. You approached the player first. Decided to neglect the management completely. Management only knew AFTER puma made his decision. And that's the ridiculous point and its sad really if your record of buying players is what you outlined. EG's arrogance and stance of being a victim and blaming Milkis and coach Lee for your 'bad press' is astounding. EG made a mistake in approaching Puma without talking to his coach at the same time. And if you admitted that, you would have the support of the community. Not its ire. EG got bad press because of a poor choice in actions in the recruitment of a player. And your apology would carry real weight if you actually meant it. Or if maybe you stopped blaming everything on Lee and to an extent Puma. And honestly the attack on a translator was really quite ridiculous. I am so disappointed in EG, I love the players, I love the tournaments ya'll organize and are involved in and this conduct is so arrogant and mean that its really taken me aback. I truly hope this isn't something I'll continue seeing in EG.
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On July 26 2011 09:24 Crovea wrote:
I really hope this reaches the koreans!
If only they could get Milikis to translate ... oh wait.
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On July 26 2011 14:04 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 14:01 Dakkas wrote:On July 26 2011 13:57 Juanald wrote:On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:
If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster.
huh? Everyone on EG is top tear... Machine.. LzGamer.. InControll .. Axslave .. DeMuslem .. Idra ... you cant be serious? You're joking right? Other than Idra, the rest aren't even top-tier for foreigners Machine is easily top 3 foriegn zerg in my opinion even with players like mma boxer and choya joining MLG anahiem machine is considered a favorite that says something. the rest might not have the same celebrity as idra but any one of them can take a major tourney. dont let jealousy or hate blind u these players are far from mediocre.
who considers machine a favorite for mlg anaheim?
I love machine and have a lot of respect for anyone who was a bw player but if thats really your opinion then youre quite clueless
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On July 26 2011 09:10 Hawker wrote:
This could of been avoided if you just would of said something on twitter right away when the news broke.
This could also be avoided if people withhold judgement until both parties have spoken and NOT jump to conclusions. I believe this has been blown way way way out of proportion.
And to all the people saying EG contacted the player first instead of management you are completely out to lunch. This is an individual (PuMa) who is NOT contracted and quite capable of making his own decisions about his OWN life. He does not need a coaches permission to leave and join another team if he so desires.... stop being a bunch of dolts.
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Good to hear both side's of the story and I will continue supporting SC2.
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Well-handled. EG PR is absolutely off the hook.As we've seen from certain Korean caster shenanigans, Korean teams/ casters are far from naive, and will manipulate the media/communities as they see fit. Obviously, they understand the primacy of being first, and therefore the story swings in their favour.
We should remember that EG does support esports in a way that is healthy and its business model is very, very strong. The business model speaks for itself and I don't believe that they'd gotten too far by involving themselves with contractual shenanigans.
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So it sounds like both EG and PuMa made the mistake of not taking this through official channels.
While EG did not do anything "legally" wrong, in the end they ended up preying on a team that built itself on having a loose, relaxed way of holding onto their players(TSL). In the end it still kinda sucks what happened to TSL, and it seems that EG does not feel particularly bad about what's happened.
All in all, opinion's not changed. sucks for TSL, EG still seem like a douche for what happened.
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lol why people care so much abou this I have no idea.
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EPT
