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EG signs PuMa, responds to criticism - Page 36

Forum Index > SC2 General
1623 CommentsPost a Reply
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Andrew2658
Profile Joined June 2011
United States356 Posts
July 26 2011 04:36 GMT
#701
Congratulations to EG on the acquisition. Can't wait to see Puma competing in more foreign tournaments.
integrity
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1014 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-26 04:37:55
July 26 2011 04:36 GMT
#702
On July 26 2011 13:33 rasnj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:15 b_unnies wrote:
Puma and TSL not having a contract is false. Your post stating this is terrible. it either means you're ignorant about the player you're signing which speaks volumes about EG is poor at recruiting players, or it means you're straight up lying

Where do you get it from that Puma had a contract? AFAIK no credible English source has claimed Puma had a contract and in the interview with coach Lee was the following:
Show nested quote +

So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand?
At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit.

which seems to contradict your answer. I realize that you may have spoken with someone involved so do you have any new information that you can share about this matter?



he is trying to say (unsuccessfully imo) that puma had a verbal contract with TSL. but what would the terms be? you live in my house you eat my food, i let you play sc2 on my team. well he left the house now what? if you wanna fight to keep your players from being snatched put on paper
StickNMove
Profile Joined June 2011
United States16 Posts
July 26 2011 04:37 GMT
#703
On July 26 2011 13:17 iamthedave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma.


An idiot responsible in large part for Puma being where he is today.

But don't worry, as a result of this an era of draconian contracts will surely be brought into the Korean scene, locking it up so tight something like this will never, ever happen again!


I disagree. He is not responsible in any part for where Puma is today. The player is solely responsible for his own performance. It is the player who wakes up everyday and dedicates his own time to his sport in an effort to improve himself. If a player fails to do this and suffers by becoming a bad player do you blame the coach? No, the player is responsible for his own success and his own failure. It's really that simple. Puma owes nothing to the TSL coach. And quite frankly, their management is obviously delusional after watching so many players from TSL leave in mass.
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
July 26 2011 04:39 GMT
#704
This was a well articulated and well thought out post. I'm glad this has been made clear and will continue to support EG with my fan power!

+ Show Spoiler +
I think the poll should include a 4th option, "+0 never was a fan" because otherwise the people that were never fans will vote as "-1 fan", which does not really represent their position. As a consequence the poll might inaccurately portray the reaction to the event.
=)=
stratmatt
Profile Joined April 2011
United States913 Posts
July 26 2011 04:40 GMT
#705
I am extremeply thankful that the NA scene has such a strong gaming organization in Team EG. To hell with the haters, they dont even know what they hate. Gettin all wound up beause some sc2 coach cried a little. Big deal... this move is huge for the NA scene.
Jackle
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada859 Posts
July 26 2011 04:41 GMT
#706
On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
If the player wants to leave his team under his own free will, shouldn't he be able to if there is no contract? If a player is under a contract he is legally obligated to fill out that contract to whomever he signed that contract with. In this case there was no contract with Puma and TSL. Because there was no contract, Puma is not obligated to fulfill any agreement with TSL. Without a contract TSL has no authority over Puma and cannot make demands that are legally binding. And as such, Puma is free to do as he wishes. Any contract between Puma and another team is between him and that team, not TSL. The coach of TSL should keep his mouth shut because he is a third party who's interest in non-existent with any contract made between EG and Puma.

TSL cannot "release" a player, a player can do whatever he wants to do if there is no contract. Releasing a player indicates that there was a contract and a new contract was reached that allowed that player to break the previous contract. All of which did not happen, and the TSL coach is full of BS. Speaking with the TSL coach is only a common courtesy and nothing he says has any power behind it. If he told Puma he had to stay on TSL he would be lying to Puma and making a dictator out of himself. Puma is free to do as he wishes, and so is EG. The TSL coach has no say in this matter and has no future say in any matter if any of his current players who choose to pursue other teams that offer them contracts.

This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma.


Wow, used the word contract 16 times.

Anyhoos, onto the main subject of EG signing Puma. As mentioned already, this will probably result in Kespa 2.0, locking any other top tier Koreans from getting signed by a foreign team.

Also, as much as I hope Puma does well in the future (was a fan after he all-killed in Proleague), I don't think he'll be able to maintain his skill level outside a korean progaming house environment.
You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind.
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
July 26 2011 04:42 GMT
#707
On July 26 2011 13:37 StickNMove wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:17 iamthedave wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma.


An idiot responsible in large part for Puma being where he is today.

But don't worry, as a result of this an era of draconian contracts will surely be brought into the Korean scene, locking it up so tight something like this will never, ever happen again!


I disagree. He is not responsible in any part for where Puma is today. The player is solely responsible for his own performance. It is the player who wakes up everyday and dedicates his own time to his sport in an effort to improve himself. If a player fails to do this and suffers by becoming a bad player do you blame the coach? No, the player is responsible for his own success and his own failure. It's really that simple. Puma owes nothing to the TSL coach. And quite frankly, their management is obviously delusional after watching so many players from TSL leave in mass.

based on your logic, why are there even coaches at all?
YouinashouRi
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada76 Posts
July 26 2011 04:42 GMT
#708
I'm not a fan of EG anymore, I don't even have to read this article. AG is just writing PR trash to cover his tracks. You don't ask a kid to talk to his manager about leaving the team. I'm sure Puma respects Lee a lot, and going to him like that must have been incredibly hard. AG could easily find a translator to do the business himself.
ChibiSage
Profile Joined June 2011
36 Posts
July 26 2011 04:43 GMT
#709
I think this whole thing is an overblown crock, maybe It's cause I'm more of a casual fan.
integrity
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1014 Posts
July 26 2011 04:45 GMT
#710
i wonder. can they get him a last minute spot/ flight to MLG this weekend?????
BreakfastTea
Profile Joined May 2011
United States184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-26 04:47:50
July 26 2011 04:45 GMT
#711
I have a hard time feeling sympathetic toward TSL at all. Sure, I'll grant that maybe there's the cultural difference where they treat their business "like a family," where the players don't have contracts or receive pay, and seem to be expected to give all of their earnings to their team (slavery and communism seem to fit that bill, too...); however, the sport is global, and to be frank, the rest of South Korea participates in a global economy, so having a contract should not have been an issue or an unforeseen circumstance by any measure. All in all, TSL's problem is either chalked up to dreadfully naive thinking (or more possibly SK isolationism/racism) or sheer fucking stupidity. To be frank, I think Coach Lee was more upset about not being able to take $50000 away from Puma to fund his failing team than anything else.

As for EG, I don't see any wrongdoing (aside from the Milkis incident), other than being stupid enough to let a 19 year old lead the charge for a major team trade.

And for Puma, congrats, the support it sounds like he'll be getting from EG should be great for his international career, and since it seems he'll still be able to practice in Korea, I don't foresee any loss of skill--just more money in his pocket.
Don't take me seriously, I'm no Pro. Neither are you.
ShamTao
Profile Joined September 2010
United States419 Posts
July 26 2011 04:46 GMT
#712
Lots of childish hate, lots of conclusions being jumped to.

I just wish all the hate would go away, because at the end of the day the forumgoers are involved with SC2 because we love and share a common interest in something that's a lot of fun.

This all seems like a lot of unnecessary stress - I'm sorry Mr. Lee felt offended, I'm sorry Milkis got railed, I'm sorry EG was presented with a silly mess they didn't expect.
In the game of drones, you win or you die!
Darathor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States327 Posts
July 26 2011 04:48 GMT
#713
This mostly seems to be a misunderstanding/miscommunication on perhaps both parties part. I never thought that EG being "shady" was that big of a deal, but what do you know, people like drama. I was mainly just pumped for foreigner teams getting Korean players quite often recently. However, because of this misunderstanding/potential overreaction by Korea by making a KeSPA 2.0 sort of deal, which could be bad as the previous iteration showed itself on occasion to be sometimes. I don't get why everyone is just hating on people in this thread; there's no need to be.
raistline123
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada18 Posts
July 26 2011 04:48 GMT
#714
The milkis thing was planned from the start, very smart move that worked imo
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
July 26 2011 04:49 GMT
#715
On July 26 2011 13:27 enzym wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:10 happyness wrote:
On July 26 2011 13:06 enzym wrote:
On July 26 2011 12:45 happyness wrote:
On July 26 2011 12:39 enzym wrote:

On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
EG absolutely doesn't want to make enemies with, or offend, or disrespect, any Korean professional team.

Of course you'd say that now. How many people do you think will take that as a genuine statement rather than a poor attempt at damage control? Sentiments like this are more meaningful if you're mindful of them from the beginning.


What!? Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team? How is this not a genuine statment?

That's exactly the point. Of course they wouldn't want to offend Korean teams now, after seeing the backlash.
It is written in a way to suggest that this had been their sentiment prior to this incident, but the evidence supporting that is doubtful.


WHAT!? What "evidence" is their they want to create enemies? And let me ask again: Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team!?!?

Your differenti-o-meter doesn't seem to be very sensitive.
Not caring not to disrespect someone is not the same as going out of your way to offend them.
There is the third possibility of simply not caring (as much) about the others.


I just misunderstood you there. I still think that AG felt that what he did was respectful to the team. He waited for Puma to consult his coach before signing him and let Puma think about his decision. There's no unwritten rule that says coaches/organizations should go over the players heads to make offers to individual players. That's just silly.
ShynZ
Profile Joined September 2010
331 Posts
July 26 2011 04:50 GMT
#716
im confused. why apologize for milkis?
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
July 26 2011 04:50 GMT
#717
On July 26 2011 13:41 Jackle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
If the player wants to leave his team under his own free will, shouldn't he be able to if there is no contract? If a player is under a contract he is legally obligated to fill out that contract to whomever he signed that contract with. In this case there was no contract with Puma and TSL. Because there was no contract, Puma is not obligated to fulfill any agreement with TSL. Without a contract TSL has no authority over Puma and cannot make demands that are legally binding. And as such, Puma is free to do as he wishes. Any contract between Puma and another team is between him and that team, not TSL. The coach of TSL should keep his mouth shut because he is a third party who's interest in non-existent with any contract made between EG and Puma.

TSL cannot "release" a player, a player can do whatever he wants to do if there is no contract. Releasing a player indicates that there was a contract and a new contract was reached that allowed that player to break the previous contract. All of which did not happen, and the TSL coach is full of BS. Speaking with the TSL coach is only a common courtesy and nothing he says has any power behind it. If he told Puma he had to stay on TSL he would be lying to Puma and making a dictator out of himself. Puma is free to do as he wishes, and so is EG. The TSL coach has no say in this matter and has no future say in any matter if any of his current players who choose to pursue other teams that offer them contracts.

This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma.


Wow, used the word contract 16 times.

Anyhoos, onto the main subject of EG signing Puma. As mentioned already, this will probably result in Kespa 2.0, locking any other top tier Koreans from getting signed by a foreign team.

Also, as much as I hope Puma does well in the future (was a fan after he all-killed in Proleague), I don't think he'll be able to maintain his skill level outside a korean progaming house environment.



What? No, not in the slightest. Do you even know what kespa was? It acted as a governing body for the SCBW scene in Korea by owning the largest leagues in the country whilst banning players that played in their tournaments from participating in any other tournaments in effect giving them a monopoly. Their main interest was the sponsors and their monopoly meant they had no reason to respect the players.

A kespa equivalent cannot come into existence in the SC2 competitive scene because it's not isolated enough anymore. The only organisation capable of achieving it is Blizzard because they own the IP itself. There are so many leagues that one organisation cannot come into ownership of a majority of them where they could demand exclusive player rights successfully.

Furthermore any team that tried to put into effect any kind of draconian contractual obligations that prevented the player from being able to even talk to other teams would have to do it the same way every other business organisation does it and gets the player to sign: by offering him a shit ton of cash, in which case, congrats to the player. If the contract was terrible and the player had a lot of talent that drew interest, he'd simply go to another team and never sign the contract in the first place.
Laurence
Profile Joined October 2010
Ireland119 Posts
July 26 2011 04:51 GMT
#718
The fundamental issue was that they approached PuMa before they approached TSL. This article changes nothing with regards to that issue.
I pwn n00bs
QuasarStarcraft
Profile Joined November 2010
United States46 Posts
July 26 2011 04:52 GMT
#719
I'm glad EG came out with their story. Always have been a fan and will continue to be. I feel like you guys did nothing wrong although from this point further I would suggest just talking to the team first to prevent this from happening in the first place but best of luck to EG and PuMa
"If it's worth killing it's worth overkilling" -My Roommate
Skank
Profile Joined October 2010
United States329 Posts
July 26 2011 04:53 GMT
#720
On July 26 2011 13:45 BreakfastTea wrote:
I have a hard time feeling sympathetic toward TSL at all. Sure, I'll grant that maybe there's the cultural difference where they treat their business "like a family," where the players don't have contracts or receive pay, and seem to be expected to give all of their earnings to their team (slavery and communism seem to fit that bill, too...); however, the sport is global, and to be frank, the rest of South Korea participates in a global economy, so having a contract should not have been an issue or an unforeseen circumstance by any measure. All in all, TSL's problem is either chalked up to dreadfully naive thinking (or more possibly SK isolationism/racism) or sheer fucking stupidity. To be frank, I think Coach Lee was more upset about not being able to take $50000 away from Puma to fund his failing team than anything else.

As for EG, I don't see any wrongdoing (aside from the Milkis incident), other than being stupid enough to let a 19 year old lead the charge for a major team trade.

And for Puma, congrats, the support it sounds like he'll be getting from EG should be great for his international career, and since it seems he'll still be able to practice in Korea, I don't foresee any loss of skill--just more money in his pocket.


So much truth in this post, I love it. Granted, comes off as a little harsh. But I agree that it was stupid to not for TSL to not contract their players, and I think that if PuMa hadn't left he would have been either asked or indirectly prompted to give away part of his $50,000 to the team.
"To be honest, to play protoss is ridiculously simple" -NesTea
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