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On July 26 2011 13:06 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 12:45 happyness wrote:On July 26 2011 12:39 enzym wrote:On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
EG absolutely doesn't want to make enemies with, or offend, or disrespect, any Korean professional team. Of course you'd say that now. How many people do you think will take that as a genuine statement rather than a poor attempt at damage control? Sentiments like this are more meaningful if you're mindful of them from the beginning. What!? Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team? How is this not a genuine statment? That's exactly the point. Of course they wouldn't want to offend Korean teams now, after seeing the backlash. It is written in a way to suggest that this had been their sentiment prior to this incident, but the evidence supporting that is doubtful.
WHAT!? What "evidence" is their they want to create enemies? And let me ask again: Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team!?!?
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Any idea if this has been translated to Korean and what is the reaction from them after both sides have now officially spoke?
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I'm happy for PuMa, hes been toiling for years as an unpaid practise partner to Flash, and now hes getting paid and have the opportunity to travel the world playing Starcraft.
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I'm actually disappointed that EG's response is so mellow and placating. I thought these guys had more of a backbone.
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Thanks for the clarification. Probably somewhere along the way there was a miscommunication. Perhaps Puma didn't relay it to Mr. Lee well enough that EG wanted to speak with him?
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On July 26 2011 13:10 Krelush wrote:First of all I want to make it clear that I read the entire OP, which was pretty long. Also I have watched that episode of WoC where EGAlex and Milkis were discussing this issue. With regards to EG-PuMa-TSL, I do not think that they're in the wrong. It would've been better if EG approached TSL first, but I do get their point.. they didn't try and steal Puma away from TSL by offering a contract to him right off the bat. Rather they approached him and told him they were interested and that they wanted to make a deal with TSL.. I don't know guys.. to me it seems like most of this is Puma's fault. If you read Coach Lee's interview in PlayXP he said this: + Show Spoiler +Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team. If I remember correctly, EG's position was more of "we want to sign you, but we want to talk to your management first" EGAlex had also mentioned(in the first page of this post) that they would only recruit Puma of Coach Lee was okay with it. + Show Spoiler +
We also made it very clear to each other that neither of us would be not be able to proceed with this recruitment unless TSL's coach was okay with it.
What I'm getting at is.. the way I see it, Puma really wanted to join EG, and he knew that Coach Lee might not agree, especially after Trickster and FruitDealer had already left. Knowing that EG wouldn't recruit him unless Coach Lee was okay with it, his approach towards coach Lee probably changed. So instead of making EG and TSL enter negotiation talks, he acted as if he had already decided to join. Anyways.. as for the Milkis comment from EG(from WoC).. I think that is just plain wrong. Remember when EG and TL had this thing going on about the EGMasters Cup? Where Liquid`Tyler was arguing that EG should have also explained both sides and not just EG's? In SotG I remember IdrA and InControl stating that the EG representative that posted on TL(forgot his name) was just doing his job, and that job was to just state the facts from EG's side. It wasnt his job to explain things from TL's side as well. And I completely agreed with EG during that entire time... What bothers me now is they're sorta taking the opposite stance right now with what they're saying about Milkis. Milkis' job is that of a translator, and he did that, he took an article from another site, and translated it. And now they're saying that he should have done more?
Saying something after the fact that is completely contradictory to your actions, doesnt make what you said to be true.
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On July 26 2011 13:02 Fanta_Rules wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
7) EG has already sent a letter to Mr. Lee, apologizing to him for any personal disrespect that this situation has caused him. EG is also publicly apologizing to him for the same reason.
8) EG feels that TSL's public reaction to this situation was knee-jerk and unfair. The fact that PuMa spoke with Mr. Lee as the *first* step in this process does not mean that EG disregarded or ignored TSL. EG and PuMa both agreed that PuMa speaking with Mr. Lee would be the best *first step* for the process. EG expected that the next step in the process would involve speaking with Mr. Lee, but EG did not have a chance to do so, due to the fact that Mr. Lee went to the press so quickly after speaking with PuMa.
This is so funny. "Apologizing" to and slandering him at the same time. Anyone who doesn't see this for what it is, damage control, must be pretty darn naive.
Sigh. Slandering someone with the truth... how unfair.
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On July 26 2011 13:12 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:10 Krelush wrote:First of all I want to make it clear that I read the entire OP, which was pretty long. Also I have watched that episode of WoC where EGAlex and Milkis were discussing this issue. With regards to EG-PuMa-TSL, I do not think that they're in the wrong. It would've been better if EG approached TSL first, but I do get their point.. they didn't try and steal Puma away from TSL by offering a contract to him right off the bat. Rather they approached him and told him they were interested and that they wanted to make a deal with TSL.. I don't know guys.. to me it seems like most of this is Puma's fault. If you read Coach Lee's interview in PlayXP he said this: + Show Spoiler +Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team. If I remember correctly, EG's position was more of "we want to sign you, but we want to talk to your management first" EGAlex had also mentioned(in the first page of this post) that they would only recruit Puma of Coach Lee was okay with it. + Show Spoiler +
We also made it very clear to each other that neither of us would be not be able to proceed with this recruitment unless TSL's coach was okay with it.
What I'm getting at is.. the way I see it, Puma really wanted to join EG, and he knew that Coach Lee might not agree, especially after Trickster and FruitDealer had already left. Knowing that EG wouldn't recruit him unless Coach Lee was okay with it, his approach towards coach Lee probably changed. So instead of making EG and TSL enter negotiation talks, he acted as if he had already decided to join. Anyways.. as for the Milkis comment from EG(from WoC).. I think that is just plain wrong. Remember when EG and TL had this thing going on about the EGMasters Cup? Where Liquid`Tyler was arguing that EG should have also explained both sides and not just EG's? In SotG I remember IdrA and InControl stating that the EG representative that posted on TL(forgot his name) was just doing his job, and that job was to just state the facts from EG's side. It wasnt his job to explain things from TL's side as well. And I completely agreed with EG during that entire time... What bothers me now is they're sorta taking the opposite stance right now with what they're saying about Milkis. Milkis' job is that of a translator, and he did that, he took an article from another site, and translated it. And now they're saying that he should have done more? Saying something after the fact that is completely contradictory to your actions, doesnt make what you said to be true.
If you could please point out what actions were completely contradictory to what was said I would greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately, I think you just have a skewed interpretation of the timeline of the events that had transpired.
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If the player wants to leave his team under his own free will, shouldn't he be able to if there is no contract? If a player is under a contract he is legally obligated to fill out that contract to whomever he signed that contract with. In this case there was no contract with Puma and TSL. Because there was no contract, Puma is not obligated to fulfill any agreement with TSL. Without a contract TSL has no authority over Puma and cannot make demands that are legally binding. And as such, Puma is free to do as he wishes. Any contract between Puma and another team is between him and that team, not TSL. The coach of TSL should keep his mouth shut because he is a third party who's interest in non-existent with any contract made between EG and Puma.
TSL cannot "release" a player, a player can do whatever he wants to do if there is no contract. Releasing a player indicates that there was a contract and a new contract was reached that allowed that player to break the previous contract. All of which did not happen, and the TSL coach is full of BS. Speaking with the TSL coach is only a common courtesy and nothing he says has any power behind it. If he told Puma he had to stay on TSL he would be lying to Puma and making a dictator out of himself. Puma is free to do as he wishes, and so is EG. The TSL coach has no say in this matter and has no future say in any matter if any of his current players who choose to pursue other teams that offer them contracts.
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma.
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On July 26 2011 13:04 AWOT wrote:
At the NASL it wasn't a sure deal. It is very rude to just straight out go to the coach with a business deal in hand saying "Ya, we are taking your player, kthxbai". Not to mention a waste of time to go there for a no..
It's a hell of a lot ruder to go behind his back, make a deal without even asking him, and then approach him just to tell him that the deal's done, which seems to be what you're suggesting.
The right thing to do would be to approach the coach, inform him that you're interested in making an offer for one of his players, and go from there.
It might shock you to consider this, but not every contract negotiation results in a player sale. Sometimes the answer is indeed 'no'. That's how the business works. Or should, if Starcraft is going to be professional at some point in the future.
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I already pretty much knew by the weapon of choice episode what the actual situations sort of was. However, that doesn't really change my negative opinion of EG as a team. They always have this shady aura around them when they are dealing with the community.
I also have a negative opinion about one of their players and how they handle community criticism (and it's not Idra), but that really has no place in this thread. Overall this post doesn't have much new content that wasn't already known, it really only serves try to save face (which is definitely not going to work if you don't take community situations like these with a very very very very humble approach).
For example, as others have mentioned, a personal apology to Milkis, a very hard working member of the community who only tried to give the Korean perspective to us foreigners, would do 10x more than a PR post like this ever will.
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Puma and TSL not having a contract is false. Your post stating this is terrible. it either means you're ignorant about the player you're signing which speaks volumes about EG is poor at recruiting players, or it means you're straight up lying
EG still not acknowledging what the real problem is. Again they refuse to acknowledge that they shouldnt have talk to Puma at all in the 1st place
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On July 26 2011 13:14 StickNMove wrote:
This is really a simple concept. No contract, no obligation. No obligation, no need for Puma to even extend a courtesy to TSL. The coach is nothing more than an idiot if he believes he owns his players without a contract, and is an even bigger of an idiot if he thinks he should have been spoken to first. And all of you reading this are idiots as well if you believe that EG should have spoken with TSL before they spoke with Puma.
An idiot responsible in large part for Puma being where he is today.
But don't worry, as a result of this an era of draconian contracts will surely be brought into the Korean scene, locking it up so tight something like this will never, ever happen again!
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The fact remains that EG made contact with PuMa first and basically had an agreement that TSL wouldn't be able to have a say in---they were just gonna have to take it. While Mr. Lee perhaps reacted childishly, I don't blame him for being upset.
And I want to see what he says about milkis, man. The dude did nothing wrong.
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On July 26 2011 13:14 NightAngel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:12 Holcan wrote:On July 26 2011 13:10 Krelush wrote:First of all I want to make it clear that I read the entire OP, which was pretty long. Also I have watched that episode of WoC where EGAlex and Milkis were discussing this issue. With regards to EG-PuMa-TSL, I do not think that they're in the wrong. It would've been better if EG approached TSL first, but I do get their point.. they didn't try and steal Puma away from TSL by offering a contract to him right off the bat. Rather they approached him and told him they were interested and that they wanted to make a deal with TSL.. I don't know guys.. to me it seems like most of this is Puma's fault. If you read Coach Lee's interview in PlayXP he said this: + Show Spoiler +Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team. If I remember correctly, EG's position was more of "we want to sign you, but we want to talk to your management first" EGAlex had also mentioned(in the first page of this post) that they would only recruit Puma of Coach Lee was okay with it. + Show Spoiler +
We also made it very clear to each other that neither of us would be not be able to proceed with this recruitment unless TSL's coach was okay with it.
What I'm getting at is.. the way I see it, Puma really wanted to join EG, and he knew that Coach Lee might not agree, especially after Trickster and FruitDealer had already left. Knowing that EG wouldn't recruit him unless Coach Lee was okay with it, his approach towards coach Lee probably changed. So instead of making EG and TSL enter negotiation talks, he acted as if he had already decided to join. Anyways.. as for the Milkis comment from EG(from WoC).. I think that is just plain wrong. Remember when EG and TL had this thing going on about the EGMasters Cup? Where Liquid`Tyler was arguing that EG should have also explained both sides and not just EG's? In SotG I remember IdrA and InControl stating that the EG representative that posted on TL(forgot his name) was just doing his job, and that job was to just state the facts from EG's side. It wasnt his job to explain things from TL's side as well. And I completely agreed with EG during that entire time... What bothers me now is they're sorta taking the opposite stance right now with what they're saying about Milkis. Milkis' job is that of a translator, and he did that, he took an article from another site, and translated it. And now they're saying that he should have done more? Saying something after the fact that is completely contradictory to your actions, doesnt make what you said to be true. If you could please point out what actions were completely contradictory to what was said I would greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately, I think you just have a skewed interpretation of the timeline of the events that had transpired.
Its in bold...Saying that you dont want to sign somebody if their coach doesnt accept it, and then signing someone after their coach didnt accept it, not hard to get any more clear than that. My perception of the timeline is fine, thanks though, anymore big words you'd like to use today?
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On July 26 2011 12:46 myth_au wrote:
EG (alex) is gutless not to be a leader and to talk to Coach lee directly. so many opportunities.
After the saga, what does he do, he shifts blame on others..... 1... oh its the fault of TSL Coach Leee..... 2....Oh its Milkis' fault didnt contact me to get my side..... Shifts accountability. I have no idea why he is a manager. TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY. BE A MAN.
Of all this i feel sorry for Milkis the most, a community member, who got blamed and cornered by Wheat and AG on weapons of choice.
I hope AG learns from this.
Very well said. AG/EG need to man up. The original post is pretty pathetic.
And although I am a big fan of djWHEAT I really couldn't stomach his 'moderation' of that 'debate' or whatever it was supposed to be (a really bad EG press release?)
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On July 26 2011 13:15 b_unnies wrote:
Puma and TSL not having a contract is false. Your post stating this is terrible. it either means you're ignorant about the player you're signing which speaks volumes about EG is poor at recruiting players, or it means you're straight up lying
EG still not acknowledging what the real problem is. Again they refuse to acknowledge that they shouldnt have talk to Puma at all in the 1st place
im sorry but whats wrong with handing out business cards?
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On July 26 2011 13:07 myth_au wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:00 happyness wrote:On July 26 2011 12:51 myth_au wrote:On July 26 2011 12:48 mholden02 wrote:On July 26 2011 12:40 hiphoppopotomus wrote:
Please, can someone explain what the big deal is here? EG offered puma a better situation than his unpaid position at TSL. He wasn't contracted, and he WANTED to go to EG. Yes, TSL is angry about this, but perhaps they should have been more business savvy and contracted him. This isn't a kiddy's playground anymore and business is business. Maybe TSL got shafted in this deal. boo fucking hoo. This should be a learning opportunity for everyone. I personally respect EG because they're adding legitimacy the scene instead of just relying on an unspoken code.
P.S.
if puma is happy with the trade isn't that what really matters? Aren't we in this for the players and not for the corporations that are backing them? Exactly. So TSL are having troubles, were paying Puma NOTHING, EG said we'll fly you around the world and pay you a bunch of money, and Puma said yes. OF COURSE! Of course the TSL coach is mad, mad at himself for being SO STUPID as to not have one of the best players in the world under contract!!! He's fuming from embarrassment and personal incompetence. Again, well done EG. Saw an opportunity, obeyed the rules, acquired an excellent player. Much respect. If your always worried about hurting peoples feelings shit will never get done. And all the QQing about not contacting the coach is a bit much. This is business. Grow up. The TSL coach and Im sure the rest of the Korean teams are learning a very valuable lesson. Dude business it is, but there is a good business method and a bad one. The point and lesson here is what EG did was not done properly. I don't think anyone has a problem with Players changing teams (it happens and TSL accepts that) but its the method its done. What is this "proper" method? That a coach needs to be contacted first? WHY SHOULD COACH LEE KNOW ABOUT IT BEFORE PUMA? Is Puma is not really a person but just an entity of a team? Is the head of an organization more important then the players? Puma is an adult and can make his own choices. This whole deal shows that EG sees Puma as an individual while Mr. Lee sees him as part of his team, the team that he owns and that part of his property was stolen from him. In my view, the "proper" way was to talk to coach lee first. Give him an opportunity to allow the transfer to go through. IF, and ONLY IF, it was not possible EG can then contact PuMa. PuMa is a person and can make his own choice, of course, but he is part of a team. Coach Lee invested time and effort and then someone comes along and sidelines him. If you were in coach Lee's position you'd be happy with that?? AG knew the circumstances and did what he did. I am merely saying it is a reflection on AG that is "i am happy to @#! with you if it is for my good". Shows lack of business ethics.
Puma is an individual first, and a team member second. That's how I see it at least. Players aren't children and teams should be able to extend offers to them. I could see your argument if Puma was a thing, but he isn't and should be able to be talked to on an individual basis.
Of course Coach Lee would be unhappy. But he really can only blame himself for having an extremely talented player not being paid anything and not being under contract.
AG's attitude simply shows that he feels Puma doesn't belong to coach Lee so he doesn't need permission. And that isn't unethical at all.
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On July 26 2011 13:10 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 13:06 enzym wrote:On July 26 2011 12:45 happyness wrote:On July 26 2011 12:39 enzym wrote:On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
EG absolutely doesn't want to make enemies with, or offend, or disrespect, any Korean professional team. Of course you'd say that now. How many people do you think will take that as a genuine statement rather than a poor attempt at damage control? Sentiments like this are more meaningful if you're mindful of them from the beginning. What!? Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team? How is this not a genuine statment? That's exactly the point. Of course they wouldn't want to offend Korean teams now, after seeing the backlash. It is written in a way to suggest that this had been their sentiment prior to this incident, but the evidence supporting that is doubtful. WHAT!? What "evidence" is their they want to create enemies? And let me ask again: Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team!?!?
Who said anything about making enemies (besides you and Alex)? Re-read the very clearly written post you quoted. Damage control.
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On July 26 2011 13:15 b_unnies wrote:
Puma and TSL not having a contract is false. Your post stating this is terrible. it either means you're ignorant about the player you're signing which speaks volumes about EG is poor at recruiting players, or it means you're straight up lying
EG still not acknowledging what the real problem is. Again they refuse to acknowledge that they shouldnt have talk to Puma at all in the 1st place
I still don't see the problem with gauging a player's interest before going to a team. You're just wasting time otherwise, or giving the other team time to draw up a hasty contract allowing them to trade a player like cattle without their knowledge.
You're also the first person to say he was under contract. I suppose the Korean news sight, EG, and Milkis all got it wrong too. So, besides the spoken word of the coach that also threw his player under a cultural bus while hiding behind "honor and respect" and starting this entire shitstorm in the first place, where is his contract at exactly?
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EPT
