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bobobaerogawa
43 Posts
Maybe he cut Milkis off more the he cut off AG (although i do not think so) but from the look on his face he did not want the whole discussion to come up in the first place and tried to cut it off. However that could be an interesting topic for another episode - maybe including more speech time for Milkis  | ||
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InvalidID
United States1050 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:15 b_unnies wrote: Puma and TSL not having a contract is false. Your post stating this is terrible. it either means you're ignorant about the player you're signing which speaks volumes about EG is poor at recruiting players, or it means you're straight up lying EG still not acknowledging what the real problem is. Again they refuse to acknowledge that they shouldnt have talk to Puma at all in the 1st place Why shouldn't they have? Are players property of a team? Is it usual for teams to approach other teams in regards to unsigned free agents prior to contacting the player in any other sport? I am not an EG fan, but they conducted themselves in a reasonable fashion, and in response to this situation appear to be actively trying to rectify the situation. Is the effort to retroactively negotiate with TSL in response to the community criticism? Sure, but if no-one cared, why would they? They run a business not a charity case. | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:10 happyness wrote: WHAT!? What "evidence" is their they want to create enemies? And let me ask again: Why the hell would EG want to make enemies with a Korean team!?!? Your differenti-o-meter doesn't seem to be very sensitive. Not caring not to disrespect someone is not the same as going out of your way to offend them. There is the third possibility of simply not caring (as much) about the others. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:24 Ozcollo wrote: I still don't see the problem with gauging a player's interest before going to a team. You're just wasting time otherwise, or giving the other team time to draw up a hasty contract allowing them to trade a player like cattle without their knowledge. You're also the first person to say he was under contract. I suppose the Korean news sight, EG, and Milkis all got it wrong too. So, besides the spoken word of the coach that also threw his player under a cultural bus while hiding behind "honor and respect" and starting this entire shitstorm in the first place, where is his contract at exactly? The thing that you apparently haven't been listening to is that they were uncontracted for a reason- there's no precedent for it, in BW or in SC2 really, and the Korean teams never really thought they needed them, first cause of the Kespa system, and then in Sc2 as a reaction to how horrible the Kespa system was for players- they wanted it to be more open and free instead of corporate and controlling, and that worked up until western teams who didn't understand this fucked with the system. I'm not saying EG did it with malicious intent but all the people saying Coach Lee was dumb for not contracting his players don't quite understand the situation he was in. If you asked him if he should have contracted his players in hindsight I'm sure he would have said yes, but having foreign teams with more buying power than you is something they're unused to, and from what I can tell the Korean teams seem to act as more familial/friendly/close bonding entities than western teams, which primarily seem to be organizations of business. | ||
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myth_au
Australia39 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:21 happyness wrote: Puma is an individual first, and a team member second. That's how I see it at least. Players aren't children and teams should be able to extend offers to them. I could see your argument if Puma was a thing, but he isn't and should be able to be talked to on an individual basis. Of course Coach Lee would be unhappy. But he really can only blame himself for having an extremely talented player not being paid anything and not being under contract. AG's attitude simply shows that he feels Puma doesn't belong to coach Lee so he doesn't need permission. And that isn't unethical at all. I am happy to disagree with you. All i was saying is AG knew Coach Lee invested time and effort and showed him little, if any, respect in his action. AGAIN, i am not against PuMa joing EG or any team which betters him just it could have been done better. From my understanding, this is the first transfer/heading hunting by EG in korea, and it was doen poorly. left a 19 yo to talk to a manager. It really gave no options to Coach Lee. I do feel sorry for him. If you agreee with the way AG has done it, imo, you accept and encourage aggressive and underhanded business tactics. Again it is up to you whether you think it is are pro or against it. | ||
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Krelush
Philippines17 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:18 Holcan wrote: Its in bold...Saying that you dont want to sign somebody if their coach doesnt accept it, and then signing someone after their coach didnt accept it, not hard to get any more clear than that. My perception of the timeline is fine, thanks though, anymore big words you'd like to use today? Yeah.. now that you mention it, that is really weird. If EGAlex really didn't want to sign PuMa without coach Lee's consent.. then he shouldn't have signed him until they got into talks with Coach Lee and got his consent. I guess after reading the PlayXP interview of Coach Lee.. they saw that Coach Lee was really disappointed in what had happened.. BUT at the same time they saw the words "Released PuMa from TSL" and thought that it was okay to sign him already. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:25 bobobaerogawa wrote: btw i do not quite understand the hate djWHEAT is recieving here, he made it very clear that the whole translator or journalist thing was not the actual topic of the episode and therefore cut the whole discussion off. Maybe he cut Milkis off more the he cut off AG (although i do not think so) but from the look on his face he did not want the whole discussion to come up in the first place and tried to cut it off. However that could be an interesting topic for another episode - maybe including more speech time for Milkis No problems with your post other than the second paragraph; if you listened to the WoC thing it's clear alex talked much more, especially at the end when he was talking about journalism/attacking Milkis for not contacting EG (which he did, he contacted SirScoots when the thing was up and SirScoots had just tweeted something appaerently irrelevant). Alex would talk for almost 10 minutes, Milkis would start a sentence, DJWheat cut him off, Alex would start again, etc. And this happened almost 3 times. Whether or not it's simply DJWheat unused to moderating (as he claims) or him being biased towards EG (as people on the site claim), if you just look at talking time alone it's clear Alex talked alot more. | ||
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Woshie
Australia90 Posts
EG never was my favourite team. But I never felt they did that much wrong to begin with in this case. My only worry is how they will look after Puma and provide him with the tools he needs as a player to reach his full potential. I still think long term wise for Puma would have done better with a Korean based team (even FXO, TL, Col would have worked). But who knows perhaps EG will pull out the deal with IM to house Puma with them. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
All this shitstorm happened. How will the korean community see puma as? A traitor? The one that should be getting an apology is puma. All he wanted was a bigger opportunity and so does the rest of us, no? I don't get why the TSL coach had to spill all this shit, not realizing how much it will impact Puma. Why did he do that... sure mr.lee put out some pocket money to support puma, but puma worked pretty hard himself. u can't discredit that. puma owes nothing. Free puma. let him play. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:10 Krelush wrote: First of all I want to make it clear that I read the entire OP, which was pretty long. Also I have watched that episode of WoC where EGAlex and Milkis were discussing this issue. With regards to EG-PuMa-TSL, I do not think that they're in the wrong. It would've been better if EG approached TSL first, but I do get their point.. they didn't try and steal Puma away from TSL by offering a contract to him right off the bat. Rather they approached him and told him they were interested and that they wanted to make a deal with TSL.. I don't know guys.. to me it seems like most of this is Puma's fault. If you read Coach Lee's interview in PlayXP he said this: + Show Spoiler + Shortly after his arrival from the US, PuMa was not himself and was seen frequently sighing for about three days as if he was stressed out. Naturally, I was concerned to see this coming from someone who had just won the NASL. This attitude continued even after we won our GSTL match a few days later. I had never seen this side of PuMa during the one year we were together. Sensing something strange was going on, I asked him repeatedly what was wrong, but he did not give me an answer. But he finally opened up to me the day after the GSTL match about his dilemma. At that point, I felt that he had already made up his mind to leave the team. If I remember correctly, EG's position was more of "we want to sign you, but we want to talk to your management first" EGAlex had also mentioned(in the first page of this post) that they would only recruit Puma of Coach Lee was okay with it. + Show Spoiler + We also made it very clear to each other that neither of us would be not be able to proceed with this recruitment unless TSL's coach was okay with it. What I'm getting at is.. the way I see it, Puma really wanted to join EG, and he knew that Coach Lee might not agree, especially after Trickster and FruitDealer had already left. Knowing that EG wouldn't recruit him unless Coach Lee was okay with it, his approach towards coach Lee probably changed. So instead of making EG and TSL enter negotiation talks, he acted as if he had already decided to join. Anyways.. as for the Milkis comment from EG(from WoC).. I think that is just plain wrong. Remember when EG and TL had this thing going on about the EGMasters Cup? Where Liquid`Tyler was arguing that EG should have also explained both sides and not just EG's? In SotG I remember IdrA and InControl stating that the EG representative that posted on TL(forgot his name) was just doing his job, and that job was to just state the facts from EG's side. It wasnt his job to explain things from TL's side as well. And I completely agreed with EG during that entire time... What bothers me now is they're sorta taking the opposite stance right now with what they're saying about Milkis. Milkis' job is that of a translator, and he did that, he took an article from another site, and translated it. And now they're saying that he should have done more? Yeah, as I said with my first post in this thread. This could be partly Puma's fault. Maybe there was a miscommunication. Maybe even the translator they had at the NASL did not relay information correctly and Puma got the wrong idea. Maybe he knew what to do, but didn't relay information effectively to Mr. Lee and Lee got the wrong idea. Or maybe you're right, he was afraid Coach Lee would not approve or something after FD and Tester.  I doubt it though. | ||
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Joementum
787 Posts
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dennistoo
Singapore155 Posts
Very smart move but talking about team passion and team spirit, i'm sad to see PuMa leaving TSL knowing that he will NOT improve if he moves to EG. But well, humans are all the same. Money makes the world go round. | ||
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Ozcollo
United States154 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:27 DystopiaX wrote: The thing that you apparently haven't been listening to is that they were uncontracted for a reason- there's no precedent for it, in BW or in SC2 really, and the Korean teams never really thought they needed them, first cause of the Kespa system, and then in Sc2 as a reaction to how horrible the Kespa system was for players- they wanted it to be more open and free instead of corporate and controlling, and that worked up until western teams who didn't understand this fucked with the system. I'm not saying EG did it with malicious intent but all the people saying Coach Lee was dumb for not contracting his players don't quite understand the situation he was in. If you asked him if he should have contracted his players in hindsight I'm sure he would have said yes, but having foreign teams with more buying power than you is something they're unused to, and from what I can tell the Korean teams seem to act as more familial/friendly/close bonding entities than western teams, which primarily seem to be organizations of business. Some were contracted. Others basically played for food. I have been listening but it just seems to me that they're hoarding talent while paying them nothing. If noone on their team had a contract you may have a point. This is obviously not the case. Also, stop with the "Korean teams are families!" crap. If they were, Lee wouldn't have started this shitstorm in the first place. | ||
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rasnj
United States1959 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:15 b_unnies wrote: Puma and TSL not having a contract is false. Your post stating this is terrible. it either means you're ignorant about the player you're signing which speaks volumes about EG is poor at recruiting players, or it means you're straight up lying Where do you get it from that Puma had a contract? AFAIK no credible English source has claimed Puma had a contract and in the interview with coach Lee was the following: So why didn’t you sign PuMa to a contract beforehand? At first, we wanted him on a contract, and so did the other teammates. But we did not feel it was necessary at the time since everyone showed so much passion and commitment. I trusted him, but now I am regretting my decision [to put off the contract] a little bit. which seems to contradict your answer. I realize that you may have spoken with someone involved so do you have any new information that you can share about this matter? | ||
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integrity
United States1014 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:30 Lokian wrote: I feel sorry for PUMA. i wouldn't. kids gonna be making mad cash now. and can travel the world whenever he wants | ||
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:23 cpmoney wrote: Who said anything about making enemies (besides you and Alex)? Re-read the very clearly written post you quoted. Damage control. He's saying that the evidence supporting the sentiment that "EG... doesn't want to make enemies with, or offend, or disrespect, any Korean professional team..." is doubtful. And I'm simply asking where this evidence is. | ||
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spybreak
United States684 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:30 Lokian wrote: I feel sorry for PUMA. All this shitstorm happened. How will the korean community see puma as? A traitor? The one that should be getting an apology is puma. All he wanted was a bigger opportunity and so does the rest of us, no? I don't get why the TSL coach had to spill all this shit, not realizing how much it will impact Puma. Why did he do that... sure mr.lee put out some pocket money to support puma, but puma worked pretty hard himself. u can't discredit that. puma owes nothing. Free puma. let him play. Glad I'm not the only one who is wondering where the hell is Puma in all these arguments. It's as if Puma is just an object and not a person who saw an opportunity and decided to take it. Hopefully he will pull a Kobe and come back stronger. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
You went out of your way to repeatedly mention that you wanted to talk to him directly as the next step of the process BEFORE you signed him. Then the whole public backlash occurred - and you still haven't talked to him directly - but he's signed. How do you expect the community to believe you in this case when you have not even followed through? You say that you planned to all along, but the actions EG took don't really match up with the words of this post. I am obviously still really glad that you have responded to the community, because with these kinds of deals you never really have to until everything's been settled. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
On July 26 2011 13:34 integrity wrote: i wouldn't. kids gonna be making mad cash now. and can travel the world whenever he wants yeah that part is cool lol XD | ||
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