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On July 26 2011 10:32 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:EPIC CHANGES! I will miss Metal, but their explanations and all that seem PERFECTLY CORRECT this time, unlike when they said slag pits was "more macro than metal" which was surely a mistake lol. Yeah actually I was wondering, why remove Metal over Shattered? But thanks for explanation, I guess its simply because zerg does better on that than Shattered, and because Shattered is newer (as an update). Hopefully we will see a return of Metalopolis, after all it is a very basic map concept, and so should be welcome again in the future! Also strange they removed Gutterhulk from 2v2 pool, I thought it was pretty good. I guess not xD Oh yeah, about Metal: Metalopolis suffers balance issues when close spawn positions occur, but becomes too predictable when they are simply disabled. Close positions have been under a lot of discussion lately, and we’re definitely examining better options to allow for random spawn positions across the map pool without also creating too much predictability and vulnerability to proxy rushes. The predictability part is SO true. For example, Boxer's 2 rax proxy is very strong on that map without close, because you can scout the overlord if he's close by air and then know he is cross position, but even if he is still close air and simply didn't send his overlord or you didn't see it, then it is still a strong proxy. Anyways, hurray we still have shattered and xel'naga and shakuras. Disappointed though, no new GSL map  There are so many, why didn't they switch out Tal'darim? darn Well i mean you have a good point about proxies, but its not that hard to stop with a little extra scouting. Remove a map because no close positions is a bit silly when all that needs to be done to stop it is a little extra scouting
True, but anyways we can still see this as a positive thing as it will most likely come back at some point as an updated version.
And oh, thanks to recent posters, yea forgot that on Shattered Zerg roach/ling attacks are much easier to defend unlike Metal, where the Zerg can easily surround your natural.
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It's funny why they removed meta, cuz if at the top it means 60% zerg win, removing it won't change a thing. Top pros will still play the map even if its removed from the ladder pool.
good thing they removed the 3 maps I Vetoed. But they also added in 4 maps of which only 1 is playable-- the shipyard one.
The other ones, 2 of them you can't take a third in certain position, 1 of them, you cant even defend your fucking natural, let alone taking a third.
So yeah, I guess i still have to keep back water and typhoon because the new maps are as shit as delta and slag pit.
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Keeping xel naga, Typhon and Slag Pits? What the fuck.
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On July 26 2011 11:33 whaty0uwant wrote:
Keeping xel naga, Typhon and Slag Pits? What the fuck.
Slag pits is gone.
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Wow, i dont know where blizz is getting the numbers to say Metalopolis is imba, it is wildly seen by both pros and the community as one of the most balanced maps in competitive play (ie. having close spawns removed). I expect it to come back with rocks at the third to make it more a casual friendly map.
Nice to see the maps that they are removing, they where all my vetos so know i can veto most of there new maps xp. Too bad they wont add GSL maps to ladder, would be fun to play on dual sight or other GSL maps. Would make me want to play ladder a lot more, make ladder exciting again.
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Oh btw, 10 bucks says Blizzard is going put Metal back in the map pool after they figure out how to put more rocks on the map.
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I played Metal the most. I'm sad
But, out with the old in with the new...
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I heard they are only removing Metalopolis because they are too dumb to know how take out close positions.
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I looked through the thread and was shocked that there were no map pics.
Straight from the liquipedia, here you go. (note: might not be up to date)
Nerazim_Crypt![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/2/28/Nerazim_Crypt.jpg/400px-Nerazim_Crypt.jpg) Searing_Crater.jpg![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/32/Searing_Crater.jpg/400px-Searing_Crater.jpg) Antiga_Shipyard![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c0/Antiga_Shipyard.jpg/400px-Antiga_Shipyard.jpg) Abyssal_Caverns![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/67/Abyssal_Caverns.jpg/692px-Abyssal_Caverns.jpg)
It looks like blizzard has gone with the philosophy of being able to get 3 bases fairly easily. The fourths are all kinda awkward to get but not nearly as awkward as junk yard, for example.
I really like Antiga_Shipyard. The bases look really dense, so that might favor T/P with tanks/Colo, but the zerg player also has a ton of options to mass expo.
I might even be able to play ladder without having to play a map that I hate.
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... WHY TAKE OUT METALOPLIS? ... That actually pisses me off. Makes no sense to take out THEE most balanced map and is in every other tournament.
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my 3 veto's are gone : )
WHY DID YOU REMOVE MEGATON FROM 4v4. BEST MAP EVER
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TLPD says otherwise. Slightly Zerg favored but nothing close to 60%, and that's primarily without close positions.
Just wanted to point out for the thread that while TLPD is totally awesome for what it is, you can't really get meaningful map balance statistics out of it because of the small numbers involved.
Check out the binomial probability distribution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution. For a coinflip (i.e. perfectly balanced map 50%), one standard deviation = 1/sqrt(number of games).
Meta 1.1 lists 296 games played. If I flip a coin 296 times one standard deviation will be about 6%. This means TLPDs 53.7% ZvT win ratio could be just as likely representing a sample that is 60% (hugely favored for Zerg) or 48% (slightly favored for Terran) with a 1/3 probability that the margin could be larger.
This is why it is so important to have a humongous sample like blizzard should have (in theory) because the variance shrinks by the square root of total games (1% sigma = 10000 games!). This also has the additional effect of washing out the effect of steep skill differences that appear in tourney matchups that get reflected in TLPD.
I hope this also reinforces the point that just because something 'feels' unbalanced anecdotally (I for one have awful TvZ on Metalopolis!), it really requires an unbiased large sample to determine accurately.
tldr: just because a number sounds convincing, don't believe it!
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^this is a very good point.
the new maps look like 2 base play, impossible to take a 3rd on some
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Feeling a small void in the 2 player map section.
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Quick look at the new maps, it seems they really want to see more reapers. There are little platforms for them everywhere.
Searing Crater seems to be backwater in a different colour... (with a reaper entrance)
Seems silly that they won't just turn off close spawns when they obviously cause most of the balance problems. I guess blizz really do like to give the cheesers some loving.
I'm not overly upset at the loss of metal tbh. But I'd rather see them fix the issues with it than pull it. A bigger map pool, with more big maps and more votes would be much better IMO. Keeps things fresher than playing the same 4 maps over and over..
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I love how they had to explain why they are taking out metal.... lol
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I wish they'd put ramps behind your nat expo.
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+1 to the metalopolis WTF. i'm sure this is pretty much everyone's opinion except blizzard's map choosers
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On July 26 2011 10:23 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 10:05 StyLeD wrote:On July 26 2011 09:49 noax wrote:
WHAT WHY METALOPOLIS!?!?!? that's dumbest decision ever... Metalopolis is considered the most balanced map by pro gamer as far as i know... that's stupid... anyway let see ! You don't know much -.- 60% zerg favored. It's one of the most zerg biased maps. Because zergs make up 90% of the whiners, you don't see any whine about the map. TLPD says otherwise. Slightly Zerg favored but nothing close to 60%, and that's primarily without close positions. We don't know where Blizzard pulled that 60% from so we can't really take it as reliable. Metalopolis is widely considered to be one of the most balanced maps, by pros of all races and the community at large.
Uh, TLPD only uses a tiny sample known as professional tournaments. Blizzard has not only that, but also literally every ladder game played by any Masters or Grandmasters around the entire world. It's ridiculously laughable that you'd take the sample size that's only a fraction of what Blizzard uses.
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EPT
