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TSL's Coach Lee speaks out on PuMa - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
764 CommentsPost a Reply
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sTsCompleted
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States380 Posts
July 22 2011 06:30 GMT
#241
Shame, I liked the ring of TSLPuMa

Sad news for TSL, good for EG.

I'm torn.
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
July 22 2011 06:32 GMT
#242
Sigh I hope Coach Lee gets more support. Clide and Killer deserve major respect, they show they really care about the team and their passion for the game.

ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12354 Posts
July 22 2011 06:40 GMT
#243
I actually feel happy for Puma, able to walk away to gain a better living and more enjoyment from starcraft 2.
Not saying that TSL should fall/collapse through, I honestly think that a person would always choose whatever he values more.
Some values their team more, some values their own future/enjoyment more.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
July 22 2011 06:43 GMT
#244
I just became a Clide + TSL fan!! GL to TSL in the future
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
kellymilkies
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Singapore1393 Posts
July 22 2011 06:48 GMT
#245
Coach Lee fighting!
Be the change you wish to see in the world ^-^V //
babylon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
8765 Posts
July 22 2011 06:48 GMT
#246
Good luck to Coach Lee and TSL. All my best wishes to them at this time, and honestly, if I could, I'd give the entire TSL team a big hug right now.

Having said that, this entire shitstorm seems to have started because of simple miscommunication from all parties involved, EG, TSL, and Puma. I don't mean to point fingers here, because I believe it's clear that everyone made some missteps - Puma in asking to be the one to break it to TSL when he knows that EG should be the one to contact them, EG in agreeing to that course of action, Puma in dancing around the bush before finally breaking it to Coach Lee but then subsequently not making it clear that he was not yet signed, Coach Lee in making such an early, emotional comment based on false information, and finally EG in not making an official remark for hours when it's clear that they've been aware of this controversy from almost the very instant that it broke out and then sending out AG on WoC to try to do some damage control. It's a complete PR nightmare from whichever angle you look at it. TSL looks like it's hemorrhaging into nonexistence, EG looks like sleazy bastards, and Puma's apparently being criticized by the Korean netizens for his decision to pack up and leave.

Jesus Christ. When I first read the thread yesterday, I was furious at EG's "theft," but having gotten both sides to the story (I think), it all just looks very unfortunate. Once again, best of luck to TSL, as well as EG and Puma. I'm interested to see how this will fall out in Korea and the international scene.
[Silverflame]
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany640 Posts
July 22 2011 06:52 GMT
#247
Detailed interview giving some inside not only on the Puma incident, but also an overview of SC2 in Korea. Thanks for the translation!
Fav P Stork / Fav T Fantasy / Fav Z Hoejja
BackSideAttack
Profile Joined December 2010
1103 Posts
July 22 2011 06:53 GMT
#248
Due to popular demand i went ahead and compiled all the sponsors EG has listed on their website. So if anyone wants to boycott their products here they are:

Intel,
Steel Series,
Monster Energy,
Kingston HyperX,
In Win development Inc,
6 pool gaming,
BigFoot Networks,
Split Reason Clothing,
Inferno Online,
G7 Teams,
NFO Servers,
Ventrilo.net

User was temp banned for this post.
IslandLife
Profile Joined March 2011
21 Posts
July 22 2011 06:54 GMT
#249
On July 22 2011 15:24 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 15:09 IslandLife wrote:
On July 22 2011 14:41 Daniel C wrote:
On July 22 2011 14:38 IslandLife wrote:
Asian and Asian-American culture is very different than Western culture about 'honor and respect' in things like this.


I can give you plenty of real-life examples of Koreans renegging on contracts, going back on their word, siphoning money out of workers' pensions, tax evasion, etc. Comments like the above are ignorant. Public disgrace is taken rather seriously, but that doesn't matter if you don't get caught.

Puma had no contract so he was free to make his own decision. Did they even think to offer him one the minute he got off a plane after winning NASL??


Yes, every human being and every culture is the same.


Don't be silly. If you don't have a contract, you don't have any claim. It's a bit offensive to have someone claim "honor" is more important in Asian culture than Western culture. My point is I think that's an invalid argument in this case. I think it's a great move by Puma and I look forward to seeing him play more in America.


By no means is it offensive, it is in fact true. If you put everything on a whiteboard then it's completely fair and legal. I agree on this point. By no means did AG do anything illegal. However the means he took to aquire a player, while in the western world, is perfectly fine and acceptable, but in Korea is extremely disrespectful. The coach treats his players as his own children, he feeds them, gives them a place to stay, and tries to do his utmost to assist them. When Clide and Sangho both feel indebted enough to give back their stipends/salary to help the team, you know how strong the bond is.

I can guarantee you AG does not share the same bond with his players, he may meet them several times a month, review salaries and performance, maybe drop by once in a while to watch practice, but the western system doesn't allow for such loyalties to form.


Uh, "the western system doesn't allow for such loyalties to form" isn't offensive?

Here's an example that might make this easier for you to understand. Many Koreans live with their parents until they get married. I have Korean friends who are in their 30s living with their parents. In Korea this is normal. In America, if you still live with your parents when you are in your 30s it is frowned upon. It implies you aren't independent. This is a cultural difference.

Your post is not about cultural differences. I can give you concrete examples of Korean bosses screwing over their employees in every way imaginable. I can give you concrete examples of American bosses screwing over their employees in every way imaginable.

I think you are confusing team atmosphere with cultural differences. Maybe Coach Lee is a super-fantastic great loving father figure who would go to the ends of the earth to raise and nurture his players, and will buy them all puppies when they win a tournament. That's awesome, and I commend that. Maybe AG is a money-grubbing jerk who stares at himself in the mirror all day and can't wait to go kick a few innocent puppies after work. That's awful, and I don't commend that.

Just please don't play the culture card. It makes no sense in this case.
Yah mon!
Imperfect1987
Profile Joined August 2010
United States558 Posts
July 22 2011 06:54 GMT
#250
Wow Clide and Sangho earned a lot of respect from me. What they did is noble. I also don't blame Puma for expressing interesting elsewhere and pursuing money for his endeavors (think about all the time and effort they put into something that gives them somewhat low financial returns).

However, after watching Weapon of Choice I really lost a lot of respect for EG. AG danced around the questions with eloquent wording and went on tangents. When it came to the root of the problem (picking up a player in a shady/backhanded way that is disrespectful) he thought EG did no wrong. EG felt no remorse for their actions, thought they did no wrong, even attacked Milkis for translating an article, made a lot of absurd arguments, and in the end AG said that EG will be posting official statements (rather late) and apologies but with no sincerity. Essentially AG said that EG will be apologizing to the community to appease it but they are coming in with crocodile tears because they didn't find their conduct to be wrong.

Not to mention AG did a lot of cheeky backhanded insults towards Milkis whenever he gave legitimate points on the subject. He said things similar to: "This isn't a loaded question but..." "I am not accusing you of anything but you should have come to EG before...." "There needs to be more journalistic credibility on Team Liquid ... I feel that you are doing more than just translating."

The entire time EG made it seem like they were victimized by a poor handling of the situation. They found it absurd that Koreans and foreigners are offended by them never talking to the TSL coach when trying to acquire Puma. I could go into more detail but you get the general reason why I lost respect for EG. All the other Korean/foreigner acquisitions and deals have gone so well and with great enthusiasm from the community. EG did some unethical means of acquiring Puma especially during a delicate and fragile time for TSL and are being punished for it. Hopefully they change their ways and be more respectful to the Korean community. Try to understand Korean culture and admit to making a mistake. Go TSL!

The keyboard is mightier than the pen.
Korpseflower
Profile Joined November 2010
United States12 Posts
July 22 2011 06:57 GMT
#251
Why was EG's side not given?? Shoddy journalism, it's obviously biast. You lost your passion years ago!
Luck and Hope is an idiot's mother, but what kind of mother would leave her child behind? <3
thanhbao86
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada199 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 07:02:05
July 22 2011 06:58 GMT
#252
Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.

This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.

But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess.
Fat Dragoon
dartoo
Profile Joined May 2010
India2889 Posts
July 22 2011 07:01 GMT
#253
I hope TSL can weather the storm and come out a stronger team, I do feel sad for them, but if you dont safe guard your interests, this is what will happen. It's quite sad to see a previous powerhouse be reduced to this, but here's hoping the find new talent!
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
July 22 2011 07:04 GMT
#254
Wow, Clide and Sangho seem like really dedicated and loyal guys. The coach also seems quite passionate, and I hope that this turmoil with the sponsors and deserters will make TSL tight knit, focused, and a force to be reckoned with.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
IslandLife
Profile Joined March 2011
21 Posts
July 22 2011 07:10 GMT
#255
On July 22 2011 15:58 thanhbao86 wrote:
Man, if I have a pro team, I will prevent this AG guy from getting near my players. He will only brings bad news to the manager of the team. (CS 1.6 now this Puma incident), It explains his styles though. Or as he has said. It is not ethically wrong, it is how we do at EG. Good for you, and your team EG. Hope that model works for you or one day it will bite you in your ass.

This stuff happens a lot in soccer (especially Arsenal). A team approaches the player, even with the contract, the player stop practicing, blah blah blah. Eventually you have to transfer him.

But again, no publicity is bad publicity. Good for EG i guess.



So if Arsenal found a phenom 19 year old striker who was getting room and board from a team in the Woolwich & Eltham Sunday Football Alliance, and had NO contract they would talk to the coach and make sure it is okay for them to talk with the player?? Would that matter one whit??

Is anyone open to the idea that not having Puma on a contract was marginally exploitative??
Yah mon!
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 22 2011 07:11 GMT
#256
On July 22 2011 15:54 Imperfect1987 wrote:
However, after watching Weapon of Choice I really lost a lot of respect for EG. AG danced around the questions with eloquent wording and went on tangents. When it came to the root of the problem (picking up a player in a shady/backhanded way that is disrespectful) he thought EG did no wrong. EG felt no remorse for their actions, thought they did no wrong, even attacked Milkis for translating an article, made a lot of absurd arguments, and in the end AG said that EG will be posting official statements (rather late) and apologies but with no sincerity. Essentially AG said that EG will be apologizing to the community to appease it but they are coming in with crocodile tears because they didn't find their conduct to be wrong.


This BS is getting ridiculous...

Here are the straight forward facts:

1) Puma was not under contract, and had no salary from TSL.
2) EG handed out several cards in public at NASL, to multiple Koreans.
3) Puma is the only one that had any actual contract talks (unless the others are being all hush-hush), meaning he is the only one that went further.
4) Puma and EG agreed that Puma would talk to his Coach, in person.
5) Puma talked to his coach, and left TSL without a written contract signed.

All of these have come out in the last few hours, and yet you're still repeating the same old gossip from last night. So which of these is supposed to be shady and backhanded?
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Omigawa
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1556 Posts
July 22 2011 07:12 GMT
#257
On July 22 2011 12:42 mols0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 12:37 Slakter wrote:
On July 22 2011 12:34 Emporio wrote:
Holy crap dude, where's EG's statement in this? Biased as shit.

+ Show Spoiler +
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side

They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.

No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.


I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team


You're not going to cheer for a player because he took the more financially rewarding route in his career? Who are you to tell him to turn down more money, in a career where your earning potential is already limited.

If this annoys you, never EVER watch real sports.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
July 22 2011 07:14 GMT
#258
On July 22 2011 12:49 storm44 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 12:48 mols0n wrote:
On July 22 2011 12:45 Emporio wrote:
On July 22 2011 12:42 mols0n wrote:
On July 22 2011 12:37 Slakter wrote:
On July 22 2011 12:34 Emporio wrote:
Holy crap dude, where's EG's statement in this? Biased as shit.

+ Show Spoiler +
jokes aside, good to see some solid facts when Coach Lee is calmer to clarify his side

They are busy grubbing themselves in moneyz and laughing evily.

No, that wasnt serious. I am also awaiting their statement, will probably be very interesting.


I don't care for EG's statement. They're a bunch of cheaters over there anyways. They poached Complexity from Jason Lake, and now they've done the same, low class organization. I was becoming a Puma fan, but I won't cheer for them while he is on that team


What is the Complexity thing?


It was during the counter-strike 1.6. Complexity's entire Counter-Strike roster was basically poached by EG without any knowledge of Jason Lake


heres the link
http://www.gotfrag.com/cs/story/43572/

Boom!
"...a traitor is a traitor. Alex, you are a traitor. There's no eloquence that can cover factual truth. The knife in our back will not be forgotten, nor ignored. Vultures thrive on the misfortune of others. They never succeed and never redefine evolution." - Jason Lake versus alex garfield


Desirous
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada95 Posts
July 22 2011 07:18 GMT
#259
LoL

How is it EGs responsibility to approach a team that DOESN'T have a contract with a player?


As far as I'm concerned, Coach Lee is a jackass. And people like him are what's holding eSports up. You didn't feel it was necessary to contract him? Yeah, that's real great. Take advantage of a player considered to be one of the best by his peers in not only SC2 but SC1 as well, and have him represent you for.... food and a spot in the corner to sleep? Fuck you.



Although there is one thing I dislike about the situation on Puma's end. He should have played them off each other to see if he could get a bidding war going.




And for the people thinking international teams "poaching" Koreans will kill the sc2 scene in Korea, who cares? Who's fucking goal is it to make SC2 a one nation game like SC1 was? I want the game to be international. I want there to be a tournament held in Toronto so I can go see it too.
I want my friends to come with me thinking I'm a nerd and walk out fans. I don't want to be forced to stay up till 5am to watch the best vs the best. So long as you leave Koreans be, they'll stay in Korea until they see a chance to go abroad for a quick cash-in.

User was temp banned for this post.
brachester
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia1786 Posts
July 22 2011 07:18 GMT
#260
Wow, Coach Lee is so professional, also Clide and Sangho, wish them the best of luck, and also, i'm STILL SUPPORING YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hate all this singing
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