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On July 23 2011 01:40 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:36 devPLEASE wrote:
Just like in WW2 when the U.S. bombed Japan for NO REASON whatsoever, the U.S. is fucking over yet another Asian country... this time something bigger, eSports. Foreign teams now think they can just buy good Korean players to join their POS team. This is kinda BS. Like when Rain joined Fnatic and now PuMa is forced unwillingly into EG.
I just got no words for this...
This can't be real life
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Huge lol: If in the end, Puma decides to NOT joinf EG :D
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On July 23 2011 01:36 devPLEASE wrote:
Just like in WW2 when the U.S. bombed Japan for NO REASON whatsoever, the U.S. is fucking over yet another Asian country... this time something bigger, eSports. Foreign teams now think they can just buy good Korean players to join their POS team. This is kinda BS. Like when Rain joined Fnatic and now PuMa is forced unwillingly into EG.
User was temp banned for this post.
If this is the sarcasm it so clearly looks like I have to say I like your post. If its genuine.. haha no its not it cant be, anyone who doesnt get this is dumb.
Edit: As if he got temp banned..
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Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there...
Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else.
This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL).
Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team.
While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with).
At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. 
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On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth.
I agree with this. More than anything ( players unions, contracts, KeSPA, etc...) a culture where players are allowed to leave their team if they are unsatisfied and join another will go towards building a scene where the players are treated top-notch.
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On July 23 2011 01:59 KaBoom300 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. I agree with this. More than anything ( players unions, contracts, KeSPA, etc...) a culture where players are allowed to leave their team if they are unsatisfied and join another will go towards building a scene where the players are treated top-notch.
Or just end up like the western cs scene where contracts have little to no meaning and are broken as fast as a twig.
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Or end up like in Korean bw where players are contracted so they can't be stolen away but are locked in a room to be a practice partner making little to no money and have little opportunity to make those cash
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On July 23 2011 02:02 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:59 KaBoom300 wrote:On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. I agree with this. More than anything ( players unions, contracts, KeSPA, etc...) a culture where players are allowed to leave their team if they are unsatisfied and join another will go towards building a scene where the players are treated top-notch. Or just end up like the western cs scene where contracts have little to no meaning and are broken as fast as a twig.
what? what contracts are you referring to?
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On July 23 2011 02:02 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:59 KaBoom300 wrote:On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. I agree with this. More than anything ( players unions, contracts, KeSPA, etc...) a culture where players are allowed to leave their team if they are unsatisfied and join another will go towards building a scene where the players are treated top-notch. Or just end up like the western cs scene where contracts have little to no meaning and are broken as fast as a twig.
For a contract to work though, there has to be some future benefit that is lost if the contract is broken (i.e. a businessman who loses out on future pension benefits if he leaves the company he is currently with for another company) or a penalty for leaving (if a company pays for your MBA tuition, you have to stay with the company for at least 3 years after graduating or you have to pay back the tuition costs in full). A contract that simply states, "you stay with us and we pay you $XXX.XX each pay period is just free-will employment on paper. That is probably why contracts "at this level" don't work or are hard to enforce.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth.
Not necessarily. You skipped the most important step for the free market model: transparency. There was little to no transparency at all in this deal.
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On July 23 2011 02:06 GumThief wrote:
Or end up like in Korean bw where players are contracted so they can't be stolen away but are locked in a room to be a practice partner making little to no money and have little opportunity to make those cash
Or end up like Kpop and people get stuck in slave contracts and the company gets all the profits.
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On July 23 2011 02:06 GumThief wrote:
Or end up like in Korean bw where players are contracted so they can't be stolen away but are locked in a room to be a practice partner making little to no money and have little opportunity to make those cash
I don't forsee this happening precisely because SC2 is larger in foreign markets and there is more money outside of Korea then within it right now. As long as there is more money abroad, there will be competition among the teams for talent and players preventing kespa style situation from forming. In theory anyway, reality can be harsh. =)
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On July 23 2011 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. Not necessarily. You skipped the most important step for the free market model: transparency. There was little to no transparency at all in this deal.
Actually transparency is not necessary for the free market system to work...look at eBay. The seller gets the most value because of all the available buyers, you get the most possible amount that a buyer is freely willing to pay. In fact lack of transparency helps because since you don't know that others are willing to pay, you have to actually put forth what you are truly willing to spend for something.
Again...just another way this benefits the players!
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On July 23 2011 02:15 kakaman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:06 GumThief wrote:
Or end up like in Korean bw where players are contracted so they can't be stolen away but are locked in a room to be a practice partner making little to no money and have little opportunity to make those cash Or end up like Kpop and people get stuck in slave contracts and the company gets all the profits.
Hey at least in Kpop you can to travel and have shit tons of fans adoring you.
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I don't understand why anybody is angry, if Puma was truly a free agent and only held a place in his profession through trust and understandings. If you want to be outraged about something, be outraged that there doesn't seem to be enough sponsorship money to share around in Korea.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2011 02:16 BASILiskTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. Not necessarily. You skipped the most important step for the free market model: transparency. There was little to no transparency at all in this deal. Actually transparency is not necessary for the free market system to work...look at eBay. The seller gets the most value because of all the available buyers, you get the most possible amount that a buyer is freely willing to pay. In fact lack of transparency helps because since you don't know that others are willing to pay, you have to actually put forth what you are truly willing to spend for something. Again...just another way this benefits the players!
I think we are talking about two completely different things.
Transparency is essential for the free market to work. If it didn't exist it would be mercantilism, communism, and a million other models.
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On July 23 2011 02:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:16 BASILiskTV wrote:On July 23 2011 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. Not necessarily. You skipped the most important step for the free market model: transparency. There was little to no transparency at all in this deal. Actually transparency is not necessary for the free market system to work...look at eBay. The seller gets the most value because of all the available buyers, you get the most possible amount that a buyer is freely willing to pay. In fact lack of transparency helps because since you don't know that others are willing to pay, you have to actually put forth what you are truly willing to spend for something. Again...just another way this benefits the players! ...That is not how eBay works and that is not transparency either.
...hmmm....really? Last time I was on eBay...I don't recall getting to see other peoples' bids or highest bid amounts...if it's changed...I apologize...and also need to get back on eBay because I could easily corner the market knowing other people's price points.
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On July 23 2011 02:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:16 BASILiskTV wrote:On July 23 2011 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. Not necessarily. You skipped the most important step for the free market model: transparency. There was little to no transparency at all in this deal. Actually transparency is not necessary for the free market system to work...look at eBay. The seller gets the most value because of all the available buyers, you get the most possible amount that a buyer is freely willing to pay. In fact lack of transparency helps because since you don't know that others are willing to pay, you have to actually put forth what you are truly willing to spend for something. Again...just another way this benefits the players! I think we are talking about two completely different things.
We may very well be :/
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United States15275 Posts
On July 23 2011 02:23 BASILiskTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 02:16 BASILiskTV wrote:On July 23 2011 02:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 23 2011 01:56 BASILiskTV wrote:Obviously I'll preface this by saying this is all IMHO, and by no means should be the attitidue of everyone else out there... Maybe it's just me, but isn't this just a good example of how the free market works in the best interests for the players (where the talent lies). If you work for a company, and an employee isn't happy, they have the right to look around (or another company can offer them a better work environment, etc.). In the sports world, a player can be brought up from the minor league, farm team, drafted from college, etc. but at the end of the day, if their talent is not rewarded proportionally, they could easily get "drafted" to somewhere else. This works both ways...obviously this is extremely unfortunate for TSL...but this should cause them to evaluate their treatment of the other players on the team (if one is willing to leave, others may as well, and maybe the organization wants to do what it can do keep them...good for the players remaining with TSL). Also, while this was good for EG since they were the one gaining the player, they also have the knowledge upfront of knowing that Puma is willing to leave a team if he feels he can do better elsewhere. So EG has to be careful to make sure that they keep PUMA happy, or they could lose him to ANOTHER team. While it may appear like there was so much underhandedness, betrayal, stealing, etc. going on here, this is the type of thing that is going to happen while eSports continues to gain popularity and organizations are willing to throw money at it (sponsorships, endorsements, etc.). Players are going to make sure that they get their fair share of it (and why shouldn't they? It is their talent that we are SO enamored with). At any rate...that's just my two-cents (or less) for what it's worth. Not necessarily. You skipped the most important step for the free market model: transparency. There was little to no transparency at all in this deal. Actually transparency is not necessary for the free market system to work...look at eBay. The seller gets the most value because of all the available buyers, you get the most possible amount that a buyer is freely willing to pay. In fact lack of transparency helps because since you don't know that others are willing to pay, you have to actually put forth what you are truly willing to spend for something. Again...just another way this benefits the players! I think we are talking about two completely different things. We may very well be :/
Reread my post again. Also, eBay is a model of transparency.
- In exchange for a small (registration), you have the ability to buy and sell on the market. This is not restricted to anything other than the amount of money you have and the time you are willing to invest.
- Items can be seen and bid on by anyone. Items can be sold by anyone.
- The Feedback option gives you information on the buyers and sellers' reliability and satisfaction according to their opposite (buyer ---> seller and vice versa). Furthermore, because Feedback is dictated by the opposite it (theoretically) cannot be directly manipulated to deceive potential buyers and sellers.
Transparency does not necessarily mean "full information disclosure". That would fall under radical transparency.
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Honestly, I don't understand why this is bad for coach lee...
Unfortunately (for him) business works like that on a lot of different competitive sports.
Soccer players can talk to clubs in a pretty straight forward manner, for example...
I don't see this necessarily as bad, I see it as a necessary evil.
I say all that with a lot of respect for Coach Lee, but he should understand the rules of engagement before letting himself get sentimentally hurt because of things like that... it's just business...
Get well, Coach Lee!
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EPT
