|
On July 22 2011 23:35 Joseon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 20:59 T0fuuu wrote:
Im really dissapointed in EG after listening to WOC. Pretty much he admits that he cant financially afford a korean progamer when he asks teams for a quote and he cant afford buying a team like fxo and he wont stand for a halfway meet like SK-OGS so instead he goes for an unsalaried player on a team thats restructuring after losing 3 core members when said player is about to make a breakout in NASL. EG then expects that players should inform the teams of their offer despite directly contacting teams before when they wanted to sign a contracted player.
Then he goes on and says that he feels ethically and legally justified in his actions. Because thats how teams are run in "international esports".
I do agree with milkis that this was probably for the better because its a wakeup call for teams to be more proffessional but I understand why milkis hates how Alex almost wants a draconian KESPA 2.0 to setup in Korea so they are doomed to fail internationally and the only people that win are outsiders like IDRA who leave the system after b-teaming for little money for years, and the G7 who can pretend to be esports torchbearers when they really just cherrypick players instead of creating the infrastructure to make good players.
What TSL did to their players was admirable and naive. A relaxed practice environment where they could offer you accomodation and food where you can keep your earnings and when things get better for the team, a salary and a contract. But I fear now everyone is going to be signed on 1 year unpaid contracts that cant be renogotiated even if they end up being the next PUMA and win a nasl/gsl. For a team like TSL who arent doing well it could well be something even worse like 2 or 3 years.
What outsiders like Alex probably do understand and completely abuse is the cycle in how teams support themselves. TSL does poor their funding gets cut and their pay goes lower. TSL does well and things get better. TSL was doing poorly waiting for a breakout so they could hopefully better their team conditions then EG catches them midcycle and takes their upcoming player with an offer that is obviously better than his current situation cos the eg accountants have been planning the acquirement of a korean player(snipe) for months.
this is a well thought out post. But you have got to stop thinking so linearly about how business and moral conduct should be enacted. I agree that in principle in a perfect world, teams should negotiate directly with other teams about aquiring players. That is how most professional sports works. But that isn't how Starcraft 2 or really business works. Business is always about shady dealing, and underhanded tactics. As they say, All is fair in Love and War. Business is just a manifestation or extension of warfare. Regarding your knowledge about TSL, we don't know what is the current status of TSL financial record, or even inventory of talent pool at their house. What we do know is that South Korea will continue to provide bed rock of talent to all the south Korean teams. Which means that TSl will continue to provide great players for the GSL, NASL, and the GSTL. What is adds up to is that, this isn't the biggest problem in the world for TSL. Obviously, Mr. Lee is being just an emotional histrionic crybaby at this point. because people, who live together, usually develop a bond with each other. As for TSL prestige or sponsorship going down the hill to lackadaisical performances, let Mr Lee, and the manager so of TSL deal with it. I think they will find a way to recover from the loss of one talented RTS gamers. There are plenty more to develop in South Korea.
Business is not only about underhanded tactics... Trust and policy have meaning and benefit. There is a reason why almost every big company want to be "green" at the moment, even if it mean to invest a lot of money.
In my point of view, you are the one who think linearly about business.
|
On July 22 2011 23:06 canikizu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011 22:21 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 22:13 vyyye wrote:On July 22 2011 22:10 saint_d wrote:On July 22 2011 22:09 Stitch wrote:
I don't understand why EG wouldn't contact TSL thought. that is honestly just plain rude. I'm definitely standing on TSL's side. Ridiculous! Why would they contact a team to ask for something that isn't legally theirs, especially when Puma said he'd like to talk to his coach himself? Because of Korean culture, manners, honor, glory, piety and chivalry. This thread is going in circles. No there is no circle. PumA asked them not to do it. End of story. 1) Things were far from settled. Initial contact has been made at NASL finals. PumA specifically asked them to leave it to him to talk to his coach first. Most probably the reason behind that was PumA felt he had the obligation to due to his close relationship with Lee. That too is KR culture, that a student ought to counsel with his coach. 2) There were two things to do for EG: a. Respect PumA's suggestion, let him talk to Lee first and see how it went. PumA reported the talks went well. b. Disrespect PumA's request and contact Lee anyway. Then it would have been all "PumA, they say they talked to you about a transfer. Why didn't you come to me first?" Lee and TSL will be hurt regardless. They are about to loose a player. At the end of the day, PumA wanted out of TSL, and no course would have changed that. But after the news was out, why wait forever to release statement (not even release it yet...). If EG is so sincere about it, they must know that they upset TSL, and why not make a statement or send coach Lee some kind of mail to inform and explain it out of courtesy. This is not the first time EG, or Alex, handle the business like this. The CounterStrike incident, even the HoN team were shady as hell. Don't tell me it's how business works. Business is based on mutual interest, where you expect to do business with the same partners again and again in the future. If you sell something and doesn't expect the customers to comeback to complain/feedback, or hide from them, that calls shady/scammy
"The news" as you call it, was a uncalled rant of Lee. You put it the way that EG should be held malicious for obeying PumA's request. It stirred up because of Lee going public on his own and no one else. As I said, would EG have known, that they should have completely ignored PumA's sentiment and talk with Lee regardless, then yes things may be different. Whether it would have been better or not for all three parties involved (EG, TSL and PumA) is not that clear as you make it to be. It is your assumption that Lee would have reacted differently, as it is my assumption that he would have been hurt either way. He is pissed about the fact that a player leaves the team. The closer you are personally with a player, the more you will have an underlying feeling of betrayal. That is unavoidable. But to go on and claim EG could have done this and that is rather a straw-man, when the real issue is a player leaving. Again, I don't blame Lee for being mad on many levels, it is understandable. But to use it against EG is not exactly fair. I will ask you:
Should EG have ignored PumA's very own request for talking with his coach first or not?
You ask me not to tell you how business works, proceed to tell me how business ought to work. But do keep in mind that TSL was no customer. PumA alone was the business partner, as in every other industry. And again, it was his specific request to handle things this way.
|
Another misunderstanding of facts that spun out of control. You got to love a community where everyone was ready to jump on eachother and start slittin throats.
|
I don't understand what EG did incorrectly? Now that the story has come out, can you blame them for poaching a player who wasn't under contract? They handed out business cards, and fortunately a player bit.
I will say that AG should not have directed any blame to Milkis. It seemed like a cheap shot at the end, and it definitely would not be looked kindly by the community.
|
I'm going to try to provide a bit of a different perspective on this whole incident. Do note that I'm by no means an expert on the KR scene, and I'll mostly be speculating based on media coverage of various events. Still, I do believe this needs to be said, if only for the sake of moving the discussion into more interesting territories.
Now, SC2 is not nearly as big in SK as it is worldwide. The blame for this can mostly be attributed to the unseemly Blizzard vs. Kespa conflict, and the following impression that SC2 is supposed to replace BW (which is still very popular over there) among Korean fans. Still, it's an undisputable fact that SC2 is underperforming in SK, even acknowledged by Mike Morhaime himself during an Activision Blizzard Financial Conference Call. And there aren't really any major signs of things getting better over there.
What does this mean for the teams? For one, finding sponsors is not easy for them. Even a great team like IM was lacking a major sponsor for a long time, and ended up wearing McDonalds uniforms as part of the deal they eventually got. Then you have fOu basically going bankrupt and barely getting saved by FXO, TSL's current problems, the fact that a huge majority of pro players in SK don't have an actual salary, and you can see that the scene isn't exactly financially stable.
So, why do these teams continue to exist, and why do players continue with their draconic practice regime for nothing more than food and board in a cramped apartment, and the perspective of perhaps winning some money after two extremely unforgiving qualification tournaments? It's because of expectations - there is a fairly realistic expectation that SC2 will eventually hit it off in SK, and that they will be sitting at the top of the proverbial food chain at that time. But that's all an uncertain future, in the present the coaches recruit hopeful talent into their team house, and hope for the best. There are no contracts for these players, because why would there be a need for any? They haven't really accomplished anything, they don't get paid for what they do, it really seems like an unnecessary formality, if they can get by without it.
Realize, that Puma was basically a nobody before his huge NASL win. He played a few games in the GSTL, but didn't even qualify for Code A during the 10 months he was with TSL. He was very much an investment on the part of the team. And then, when he finally realizes some of his potential at a foreign tournament, a Western e-sports organization approaches him during that same tournament, and he accepts their offer.
Legally, this is all completely fine, and business as usual. However, I can understand why the TSL coach would be pissed. Also, consider the implication of this deal, for the KR scene. What if Nestea's contract ends at some point, and an organization like SK-gaming offers him more than his team can afford, and he accepts. This really just seems very unfair to the Korean teams, who do the "dirty work", recruting hopeful players and training them, so they might achieve some success in the future; and then more wealthy Western organizations swooping in to pick the best performers, without having invested much at all in the development of either scene.
This would really be a pathological relationship, and I can see how this might force the Korean teams into a Kespa-like structure, which honestly won't be good for anyone involved.
|
If I have you translate a text, the translation of which you give to me, and then I use that for whatever. You will have only performed the function of a translator.
If I have you translate a text, the translation of which you will present as a piece to the community. You will have performed the function of a translator in translating the text, and then become a journalist by using the translated text and presenting it as a piece to the community.
Making a thread comes with a lot of responsibility. You will all have seen it countless of times where people make threads without putting the proper thoughts into the best way to handle it and present. And many times it either fails to be what it should approach or in other cases it's just plain garbage. Polls threads in particular very easily fall victim to this.
That kind of responsibility and thought is exactly what makes it appropriate and preferred to treat someone in that position as a journalist, rather than single-ling out one of the tasks that are contained within the set of possible tasks that comprise the function.
You go somewhere to figure out what is happening, bring the information over and present and then continue to update the story. Place any type of event into those parameters and it could be in the news because it's journalism.
Journalism doesn't have to add an opinion. In fact, it shouldn't.
All this has blown up way too much so it would be foolish for me to think I can actually contribute anything of meaning. But I hope maybe the way to look at the spectrum of aspects and attempting to take many of them into account, then having to conclude you can't actually say anything, will be used by many more because if we all did the subject would be over.
If non drama things like these continue to be allowed to spawn and impact the community it get to a point where somethings have become near irreversible. The latter half of this year or maybe just the last quarter we have had countless or ridiculous topics spawn insane discussions.
When those calm down, people are still riled up, they need to go somewhere, they need to continue their habit. And so a new topic will explode because of people treating it in such a way.
Let me just say that I hope we can become self conscious about this so that we won't suddenly realize we have become a monster. This is really becoming a trend recently and the reason why it's unarguable undesirable is not because of the topics or the seriousness of the outrage that occurs. It is because nothing is getting coordinated well. Judgements are made before any real facts are know. As the discussion starts from that point, based on different projections rather than the one set, it will be very superficial and disconnected to the reality of whatever is actually going on and diverges in every way possible.
Also a business is an entity, it's the organization that runs the business.
|
On July 22 2011 20:13 Sworn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote:
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch. Karma may be a bitch but it still doesn't make what EG did right. No matter how you come at it stealing a player is still stealing no matter who you do it too. EG should have really done a better job with this.
.What exactly did EG do wrong? This argument is so retarded its unbeleivable. It's not as if any of this situation was done behind backs and deceitful. It's clear that Coach Lee was in the know the whole time, considering he threw this goodbye party and shit for Puma and Puma told him about the situation. Apparentely the only thing that EG didn't do was get a translator and talk to Coach Lee to say "OK were taking your player". Would that have been any better? Would that have changed anything? I don't think so, especially considering it's not really a discussion that they should have bought him out considering he has no contract/wasn't being paid.
|
On July 23 2011 00:39 Toadvine wrote:
I'm going to try to provide a bit of a different perspective on this whole incident. Do note that I'm by no means an expert on the KR scene, and I'll mostly be speculating based on media coverage of various events. Still, I do believe this needs to be said, if only for the sake of moving the discussion into more interesting territories.
Now, SC2 is not nearly as big in SK as it is worldwide. The blame for this can mostly be attributed to the unseemly Blizzard vs. Kespa conflict, and the following impression that SC2 is supposed to replace BW (which is still very popular over there) among Korean fans. Still, it's an undisputable fact that SC2 is underperforming in SK, even acknowledged by Mike Morhaime himself during an Activision Blizzard Financial Conference Call. And there aren't really any major signs of things getting better over there.
What does this mean for the teams? For one, finding sponsors is not easy for them. Even a great team like IM was lacking a major sponsor for a long time, and ended up wearing McDonalds uniforms as part of the deal they eventually got. Then you have fOu basically going bankrupt and barely getting saved by FXO, TSL's current problems, the fact that a huge majority of pro players in SK don't have an actual salary, and you can see that the scene isn't exactly financially stable.
So, why do these teams continue to exist, and why do players continue with their draconic practice regime for nothing more than food and board in a cramped apartment, and the perspective of perhaps winning some money after two extremely unforgiving qualification tournaments? It's because of expectations - there is a fairly realistic expectation that SC2 will eventually hit it off in SK, and that they will be sitting at the top of the proverbial food chain at that time. But that's all an uncertain future, in the present the coaches recruit hopeful talent into their team house, and hope for the best. There are no contracts for these players, because why would there be a need for any? They haven't really accomplished anything, they don't get paid for what they do, it really seems like an unnecessary formality, if they can get by without it.
Realize, that Puma was basically a nobody before his huge NASL win. He played a few games in the GSTL, but didn't even qualify for Code A during the 10 months he was with TSL. He was very much an investment on the part of the team. And then, when he finally realizes some of his potential at a foreign tournament, a Western e-sports organization approaches him during that same tournament, and he accepts their offer.
Legally, this is all completely fine, and business as usual. However, I can understand why the TSL coach would be pissed. Also, consider the implication of this deal, for the KR scene. What if Nestea's contract ends at some point, and an organization like SK-gaming offers him more than his team can afford, and he accepts. This really just seems very unfair to the Korean teams, who do the "dirty work", recruting hopeful players and training them, so they might achieve some success in the future; and then more wealthy Western organizations swooping in to pick the best performers, without having invested much at all in the development of either scene.
This would really be a pathological relationship, and I can see how this might force the Korean teams into a Kespa-like structure, which honestly won't be good for anyone involved.
Puma was not a nobody before NASL... lol
|
On July 22 2011 20:57 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote:
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch. Dan you and I know that is only a half truth. FD and Tester wanted out and those two helped build TSL.
I could say that Puma was not happy with the TSL situation and wanted out, and that he will help build EG, which is completely true...... so what is the difference? The fact that its just Korean teams or the fact that you just don't like EG?
|
Last I checked... Slavery was illegal.
How can TSL's coach get mad that Puma left? Or that EG recruited him.
With any other organization... Employees get recruited by other companies all the time, if what that organization is offereng is better than what he currently gets, he quits. His current employer can then if they so please, try to do something to get him to stay.. In the end its always up to the employee (in this case... player).
I see no issue with this at all.
Imagine working a 9-5 job, but when you start they go "ok you get 5% commssion on your sales... and you have to sign this contract that you will stay with us for X years"... rediculous.
I know what some of you might say... "What about professional sports!? They have contracts!"... Yes they do, but they also have PLAYERS unions, that look after the interest of the players, and decide on a collective bargaining agreement, so that it is fair to the players. eSports does not have this... and until they do, the players need to be able to quit a team.
IMO
|
Good for PuMa making that paper. Will he move West?
|
On July 23 2011 00:48 TooN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:39 Toadvine wrote:
I'm going to try to provide a bit of a different perspective on this whole incident. Do note that I'm by no means an expert on the KR scene, and I'll mostly be speculating based on media coverage of various events. Still, I do believe this needs to be said, if only for the sake of moving the discussion into more interesting territories.
Now, SC2 is not nearly as big in SK as it is worldwide. The blame for this can mostly be attributed to the unseemly Blizzard vs. Kespa conflict, and the following impression that SC2 is supposed to replace BW (which is still very popular over there) among Korean fans. Still, it's an undisputable fact that SC2 is underperforming in SK, even acknowledged by Mike Morhaime himself during an Activision Blizzard Financial Conference Call. And there aren't really any major signs of things getting better over there.
What does this mean for the teams? For one, finding sponsors is not easy for them. Even a great team like IM was lacking a major sponsor for a long time, and ended up wearing McDonalds uniforms as part of the deal they eventually got. Then you have fOu basically going bankrupt and barely getting saved by FXO, TSL's current problems, the fact that a huge majority of pro players in SK don't have an actual salary, and you can see that the scene isn't exactly financially stable.
So, why do these teams continue to exist, and why do players continue with their draconic practice regime for nothing more than food and board in a cramped apartment, and the perspective of perhaps winning some money after two extremely unforgiving qualification tournaments? It's because of expectations - there is a fairly realistic expectation that SC2 will eventually hit it off in SK, and that they will be sitting at the top of the proverbial food chain at that time. But that's all an uncertain future, in the present the coaches recruit hopeful talent into their team house, and hope for the best. There are no contracts for these players, because why would there be a need for any? They haven't really accomplished anything, they don't get paid for what they do, it really seems like an unnecessary formality, if they can get by without it.
Realize, that Puma was basically a nobody before his huge NASL win. He played a few games in the GSTL, but didn't even qualify for Code A during the 10 months he was with TSL. He was very much an investment on the part of the team. And then, when he finally realizes some of his potential at a foreign tournament, a Western e-sports organization approaches him during that same tournament, and he accepts their offer.
Legally, this is all completely fine, and business as usual. However, I can understand why the TSL coach would be pissed. Also, consider the implication of this deal, for the KR scene. What if Nestea's contract ends at some point, and an organization like SK-gaming offers him more than his team can afford, and he accepts. This really just seems very unfair to the Korean teams, who do the "dirty work", recruting hopeful players and training them, so they might achieve some success in the future; and then more wealthy Western organizations swooping in to pick the best performers, without having invested much at all in the development of either scene.
This would really be a pathological relationship, and I can see how this might force the Korean teams into a Kespa-like structure, which honestly won't be good for anyone involved. Puma was not a nobody before NASL... lol
He was another "really good but without any accomplishments" player that the Code A/S system of GSL appears to produce in large numbers. The only thing he had going for him was Artosis hype and MC saying he was afraid of Puma in his pre-NASL interview.
|
|
|
So many breaking news recently! Many twists (including Rekrul's recent post). 338 pages already! This thread delivers!
|
On July 21 2011 23:51 stormchaser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:44 Shinobi1982 wrote:
In the west, if a player is not contracted he is basically a free agent.
In Korea one does not just walk up to a player and offer him/her a deal without speaking with his team manager first (or the one responsible for player "transfers"), it's a matter of respect. Westerner simply do not care about such things if a player is not contracted. Now if EG acquired a NA or EU player, I understand their position. BUT, if you are acquiring a player from Korea, you have to play by their "rules".
So imo it's dirty business.
I'll still be rooting for PuMa but I hope "Kespa 2.0" handles this issue so in future such things can be avoided. If your reasoning is cultural differences, then clearly you don't understand what is happening for all 3 parties involved.
Right.. I have no clue as a neutral party and you as a Canadian are not in the slightest biased towards EG and the western way of approaching this matter. /sarcasm
OP said pretty much the same thing on Weapons of choice #32. Goto 1:43:00 -> 1:43:55 and see the reaction of Wheat and Alex. They shutted the * up, had NOTHING to reply to that. And "that" being: "You want something, Koreans have the supply = you have to play by their rules!"
|
On July 23 2011 00:45 PHILtheTANK wrote:
.What exactly did EG do wrong? This argument is so retarded its unbeleivable. It's not as if any of this situation was done behind backs and deceitful. It's clear that Coach Lee was in the know the whole time, considering he threw this goodbye party and shit for Puma and Puma told him about the situation. Apparentely the only thing that EG didn't do was get a translator and talk to Coach Lee to say "OK were taking your player". Would that have been any better? Would that have changed anything? I don't think so, especially considering it's not really a discussion that they should have bought him out considering he has no contract/wasn't being paid.
No, he wasn't. Where the heck do you people get off. They threw the good bye party after he spoke to Puma. After Puma's decision was made. The kid was seen sulking repeated in the house and at one of their GSTL matches. Puma put the burden on himself. All of this was said in Lee's recent interview. Stop posting nonsense.
I'm not going to go into the other bullshit you went on about because it's total garbage. Keep on spinning.
On July 23 2011 01:07 Azzur wrote:
So many breaking news recently! Many twists (including Rekrul's recent post). 338 pages already! This thread delivers!
There is no twist. What he said was tongue in cheek.
|
Just like in WW2 when the U.S. bombed Japan for NO REASON whatsoever, the U.S. is fucking over yet another Asian country... this time something bigger, eSports. Foreign teams now think they can just buy good Korean players to join their POS team. This is kinda BS. Like when Rain joined Fnatic and now PuMa is forced unwillingly into EG.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On July 23 2011 01:36 devPLEASE wrote:
Just like in WW2 when the U.S. bombed Japan for NO REASON whatsoever, the U.S. is fucking over yet another Asian country... this time something bigger, eSports. Foreign teams now think they can just buy good Korean players to join their POS team. This is kinda BS. Like when Rain joined Fnatic and now PuMa is forced unwillingly into EG.
Yes, this is just like WW2.
|
On July 23 2011 01:36 devPLEASE wrote:
Just like in WW2 when the U.S. bombed Japan for NO REASON whatsoever, the U.S. is fucking over yet another Asian country... this time something bigger, eSports. Foreign teams now think they can just buy good Korean players to join their POS team. This is kinda BS. Like when Rain joined Fnatic and now PuMa is forced unwillingly into EG.
I just got no words for this...
|
On July 23 2011 01:28 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:51 stormchaser wrote:On July 21 2011 23:44 Shinobi1982 wrote:
In the west, if a player is not contracted he is basically a free agent.
In Korea one does not just walk up to a player and offer him/her a deal without speaking with his team manager first (or the one responsible for player "transfers"), it's a matter of respect. Westerner simply do not care about such things if a player is not contracted. Now if EG acquired a NA or EU player, I understand their position. BUT, if you are acquiring a player from Korea, you have to play by their "rules".
So imo it's dirty business.
I'll still be rooting for PuMa but I hope "Kespa 2.0" handles this issue so in future such things can be avoided. If your reasoning is cultural differences, then clearly you don't understand what is happening for all 3 parties involved. Right.. I have no clue as a neutral party and you as a Canadian are not in the slightest biased towards EG and the western way of approaching this matter. /sarcasm OP said pretty much the same thing on Weapons of choice #32. Goto 1:43:00 -> 1:43:55 and see the reaction of Wheat and Alex. They shutted the * up, had NOTHING to reply to that. And "that" being: "You want something, Koreans have the supply = you have to play by their rules!"
People will claim the moral high ground when they fight for their interests. No one can claim that so and so is part of their culture. If you can enforce it it is. If you can't, it's just gamesmanship and politics.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
