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For anyone who has played on both, would you say that Standard or Classic is more efficient than Grid?
I started out playing Grid because I found it annoying to memorize hotkeys. However, 1k plus games later and a quite a few losses due to a misclick, I have been debating for a while switching to Standard or Classic. However, as you'd imagine, after 1k+ games it's tough for me to switch.
Is there any way I can adapt to Standard easier? Should I use Standard or Classic? How long do you think it will take for me to adapt?
In case if it matters, my race is Protoss and my league is Gold, hopefully Plat next season :3
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Nobody is use to it from the get-go, but it really doesnt take long to at least be sufficient.. Its really up to the player i guess, but i prefer standard.
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I used grid style in WC3 and have continued using it in SC2. I really prefer it, because you can get to every command very quickly, but it's just a matter of taste.
Standard isn't going to save you from misclicking, though. There was an important PvP just recently that was lost due to a [G]uardian Shield being ordered instead of [H]old Position.
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I played around 1k5 games with grid, and I'm now switching to standart for one main reason : spellcasters.
I've really a hard time using multiple spell casters /w grid and it's way easier with standart. I think that with 50/100 games it's ok but you'll improve for a while.
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I played using grid in WarCraft3 for a few years, but was "forced" to switch back to default keybinds when the SC2 beta came out. It wasn't tricky at all to adapt to the default settings, and after a few weeks it became second nature again.
May I ask why you want to change from Grid to Standard? If Grid is working out ok for you, there's no real reason to switch it up, right?
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Grid has too many overlapping hotkeys and standard has some awkward ones. THe best idea is to create a custom setup that works for you IMO.
control groups on 1-6 and f1-f4 for me, with GHJK used for camera locations. The rest is standard.
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On July 14 2011 17:22 Imres wrote:
I played around 1k5 games with grid, and I'm now switching to standart for one main reason : spellcasters.
I've really a hard time using multiple spell casters /w grid and it's way easier with standart. I think that with 50/100 games it's ok but you'll improve for a while.
What's your league?
50-100 games o_O
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I'd say it's the other way around. Switching from standard to grid is worth it (I did), not the other way around. Grid is simply a LOT more effective, the actions are closer together and in more logical positions, making it really easy for your brain to adapt and connect to your fingers.
That said, changing keys you are uncomfortable with is a must. Most people have a problem with t-move instead of a-move, but nothing is stopping you from changing the hotkey. I put my t on my mouse.
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On July 14 2011 17:25 MrCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 17:22 Imres wrote:
I played around 1k5 games with grid, and I'm now switching to standart for one main reason : spellcasters.
I've really a hard time using multiple spell casters /w grid and it's way easier with standart. I think that with 50/100 games it's ok but you'll improve for a while. What's your league? 50-100 games o_O
A minimum of 100 games would really fix it because you need to learn to configure your muscle memory to remember the hotkeys all at once (rather than a few at a time which is easier).
Its like learning to play guitar for 2 years, (so you can remember all fret/note locations) swapping all the strings into different random orders and being asked to play a tune you could play before (the tuning would be the same, but the frets would all be completely different).
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I have the same question in my mind, played +1k games as grid (not really grid but a custom version of it, with attack on A and some minor changes) and im high diamond. My concern about grid style is that the keys are maybe too much concentrated in one area of the keyboard, which is ok for reaching them fast but on the other side missclicks are more common overall. I think standard is maybe better, with the added value that you are forced to move more the hands, with training i think this will result in a more precise playstile. And im zerg too, and with standard you got no annoyng drone/select larva key issues. I will try standard, knowing that will get lot of games to become second nature to me.
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On July 14 2011 17:25 MrCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 17:22 Imres wrote:
I played around 1k5 games with grid, and I'm now switching to standart for one main reason : spellcasters.
I've really a hard time using multiple spell casters /w grid and it's way easier with standart. I think that with 50/100 games it's ok but you'll improve for a while. What's your league? 50-100 games o_O
I'm master but that's not the topic and i've a low apm anyway :D.
It's the minimum imo in order to don't missclick and don't have to look at your keyboard.
I just switched, and atm I think I'll do again all the challenges with my race, just to learn some basics efficiently then customs and then ladder/tournament.
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Or you could just use the standard ones. Why are there always people trying to make the gaming experience easier?
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Yeah, I don't know if I want to commit 100 games where I will be performing far more sluggishly than I am now, but the performance payoff afterwards could be worth it. There are just too many overlapping hotkeys when playing Grid...
Another problem I just thought of about playing Standard or Classic is that I'll have a harder time offracing, which I do when playing team games with my friends.
I wish I never dug myself into this hole, haha
Feels bad man.
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On July 14 2011 17:25 Fishgle wrote:
Grid has too many overlapping hotkeys and standard has some awkward ones. THe best idea is to create a custom setup that works for you IMO.
control groups on 1-6 and f1-f4 for me, with GHJK used for camera locations. The rest is standard.
i like that camera locations plus f1-f4 (for my queens 3+), i will give it a try thanks.
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Standard imo. Its pretty intuitive and basically is more of a function of you understanding your keyboard layout better.
Off-racing isn't a big deal at all; at least, i've never really heard any complaints from standard users.
And although its not really definitive evidence of superiority, i do believe most progamers and top players are standard layout'ers
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I played standard, switched to grid and finally (once available) made my own custom hotkeys using a mix of both. (I constantly had issues with issuing attack vs attack while accidentally using stim instead - i play terran))
all my upgrades are Q-W-E / A-S-D (as applicable) Most of my spell hotkeys are Z-X-C. Spells I got very comfortable with I use grid keys as secondary keys (EMP is actually both X and/or E - I never got good with snipe before changing so it is Z)
most of my production building/units are also set up as Q-W-E-R-T with the occasional unit getting multiple hotkeys (siege tanks are both S and/or W, marines are both Q and/or A etc)
I mostly went away from Grid on move/attack commands. I kept attack, hold, stop, patrol, move because I was so accustomed to them.
I also use this setup for random and ran into a few problems as protoss: gateways would use Z for warp into warpgate instead of create zealot, because W is used for any building that has more than one upgrade/production capability you need a new hotkey for warpgates (i usually have them in a control group anyway). spells were again much easier to keep on the standard keys (although I would also give them Z-X-C as secondary keys).
Overall, I very much like the mix of grid keys for production (macro) and standard keys for unit control (micro) with keeping a lot of alternate (grid) keys available and it shouldn't take very long at all to get adjusted to.
TLDR - I used standard keys with grid keys as secondary keys. In cases where this created problems (stim vs attack on T) I went with what was more comfortable (A for attack, Z/T for stim).
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Well It depends on preference really, I am the opposite I started on standard but switched to grid because I felt it was more efficient. I feel the pros outweigh the cons, even though I have only been using it for ~25 games or so.
Pros of Grid:
-everything is closer, minimal hand movement is required, for split second engagements I find this really helps
-easy access to the hold, patrol and move commands, which I find very useful as terran.
-no awkward hotkeys on the other side of they keyboard (even if they are not used very often, when you do want to use them on standard you'll find yourself annoyed)
-easier to cast multiple different abilities quickly since the key is the same. For example for terran I can stim, siege, cast EMP and cast PDD all together much faster since the keys are z and x only, whereas you need to hit 4 different hotkeys to do so with standard, greatly increasing the chance of error and slowing you down.
Cons:
-harder to get used to, especially t-move just feels unintuitive (it took me atleast 5 games vs to ai to stop trying to a-move all the time)
-hotkeys are all close together which means potentially more misclicks, but I havn't had this issue since I find I'm much more accurate as the keys are directly beneath my hand. I'd frequently hit the wrong key for the far away hotkeys like b&v, h&g when I was using standard.
-spellcasters, its easier to cast the wrong spell by mistake or cast with the wrong unit I guess but you can usually tell by the targeting system what you have selected. I'm finding as I become more used to this its less of an issue, you just have to be careful your are tabbed to the right unit or you have the right control group selected.
Both systems are workable though, I don't feel theres a huge advantage to either.
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You should take the time to customize your hotkeys to your comfort. Grid and standard both have its advantages but you can always mold either of them to your liking.
Adaptation will come over time. Probably not 100 games but I've switched my hotkeys around a couple times and it took me a day or 2 to get used to.
If you've found a hotkey system you feel will benefit you then definitely take the time to try to change. You will not regret it.
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On July 14 2011 17:34 SdNGama wrote:
I have the same question in my mind, played +1k games as grid (not really grid but a custom version of it, with attack on A and some minor changes) and im high diamond. My concern about grid style is that the keys are maybe too much concentrated in one area of the keyboard, which is ok for reaching them fast but on the other side missclicks are more common overall. I think standard is maybe better, with the added value that you are forced to move more the hands, with training i think this will result in a more precise playstile. And im zerg too, and with standard you got no annoyng drone/select larva key issues. I will try standard, knowing that will get lot of games to become second nature to me.
The risk of a misclick is much higher if you have to move your fingers farther. The only difference is that a misclick in standard does nothing, while it might do the wrong thing in grid. Not that I ever misclick though, since my fingers are on the buttons I need. Since I play zerg, I use my queens constantly every game, so I'm fine with the spells as well.
Keys overlapping is the whole point, it's a good thing. It's not a misclick if you cast guardian shield when you intend to cast psychic storm since it relies on you having selected the wrong unit.
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Sounds like i'm the only one who uses Classic (well mostly classic, its a bit modified). Its probably best to set up a style that suits you. Like use one as a template then modify small things that works for you. etc etc
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yeah the best maybe is a mix of standard/grid.
I for example use a grid style for buildings/upgrades and build units, than a standard style for spells. Works good, but i want to give standard a chance.
Thanks to that thread i will use f1-f4 as new control groups for my queens (i have serious problems using 6+normal control groups), never thought about that and considering i used them for years in other games im pretty embarassed lol.
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On July 14 2011 17:22 Imres wrote:
I played around 1k5 games with grid, and I'm now switching to standart for one main reason : spellcasters.
I've really a hard time using multiple spell casters /w grid and it's way easier with standart. I think that with 50/100 games it's ok but you'll improve for a while.
Haha I find the opposite, I really had trouble using ravens + ghosts + tanks + marines vs protoss on standard. I'd either stim and siege first but then the raven would be feedbacked/sniped and the protoss would get his forcefields out before the EMP, or I'd get a nice emp and PDD out but my troops would fight half the battle unstimmed and unsieged. I simply wasn't fast enough with standard.
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Customize it. I use standard with a bunch of changes like :
basecamera to ~ (inject style, yeah!)
All upgrades grid style (A S D) + (Z X C) evochamber/eng bay etc, rebinding lair key to something closer (F), generally anything really far over I try to remap (L, O) to the left side of the keyboard, so I don't need to stretch a finger/move hand off WASD.
Unit abilities like stim default is good but T is further than E and it doesn't overlap so I also moved it closer.
Also I added shift + space to set a camera (to my natural expo) so I can move a drone there easily and check on it building (as you can't cycle with basecamera before it's up) - or otherwise later to my opponents ramp. Small tricks like this save a lot of time.
Another thing I found useful, I remapped W to idle workers, so I can just CTRL+W to send workers to mine + box split one half, makes it really easy :D Even when I play protoss, I bind warpgates to 3 (so I can morph them in and never found myself using W much).
I never find myself using the F1-F9 keys, I'm too lazy. One camera is good enough 
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Something that crossed my mind...
Would casting spells using the standard hotkeys (having hotkeys for different spells on different keys) feel more "conscious" about what spell you're casting? For example if I press e I'll know I'm using EMP.
I've never used the grid keys but I imagine that casting different spells using the same key would feel...robotic.. for lack of a better word.
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After that many games I suggest you make your own keybindings. I have a mix of grid and standard where every hotkey is moved in what I consider more logical than both grid and standard.
Upgrades / building units is always / spells Q _ W _ E
Move / attack is A _ S _ F _ D
And building everything from a worker is almost the same.
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On July 14 2011 17:35 whaty0uwant wrote:
Or you could just use the standard ones. Why are there always people trying to make the gaming experience easier?
LOL whut.
There is absolutely no way that grid OR standard brings about any advantages or disadvantages. Both require memorisation of some kind of pattern or abbreviations.
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You don't have to choose between the two. You can make your own custom hotkey setup, taking the best of both worlds.
I set up my own custom hotkey setup. For me, all upgrades from all buildings are always A S D F. All units in production facilities are A S D F. Most unit skills are D F. That way, I don't have to remember hotkeys for each random upgrade/unit and I won't have to reach far on my keyboard for some skills/upgrades.
Attack/Stop/Hold position are still A S H though.
Little tip: You can rebind your control groups from 67890 (hard to reach) to QWERT. Might take some getting used to, but with my setup I NEVER have to reach across my keyboard and my hand remains around the WASD keys where it belongs.
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As a zerg player grid can be very, very dangerous when morphing banelings. Personally, I find that my control groups are more effective using grid, but its really just personal preference
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Might start off with changing the 7890 hotkeys to F1-F4, seems like a solid change imo. Only complaint about it is that it's kind of hard to reach Ctrl- F1 through F4.
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I find certain races are better for different styles.. Protoss (the race I play 80% of the time) is great for normal hotkeys, now that they moved probe/pylon's P to E.. but every other hotkey is generally on the left side of the board, where as zerg and terran have some units that require like M, which is out of my way.
if you are protoss though; id suggest staying with classic hotkeys.
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Just use what you are comfortable with >_>
For me, I use modified standard. I replace upgrade hotkeys with a,s,d, f, z, x, c according to the upgrade position on the screen. Further, I change q and w to control group 0 and 9. I play Terran, so I wanna group all my barracks as 4, factories as q, starports as w, CC as 5, and leave 1-3 for units. Be creative and use keys that suit you ^^
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Look at the keyboard objectively
the less reaching you have to do the better, the less contortions the better.
Standard is terrible, grid is bad, custom made setups designed with ergonomics are great.
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Right now I use a slightly altered grid because i come from a FPS/MMORPG background where you (as a righthanded person) keep your left hand on the left side of your keyboard. Also, I play on a laptop so because the screen/keyboard location reaching all the way on the right is really hard.
However, I find that because I stick with mainly the left side of the keyboard, I have a hard time using all the control groups (especially 7-8-9; I rebound 0 to the button on the left of "1") and as I'm buying a usb keyboard soon (basically gonna use my laptop as a computer with seperate screen/keyboard/mouse) I will be switching to standard to force myself to be able to hit buttons all over the keyboard accuratly
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I find standard to be way better, you can reach many more keys and it's much more comfortable imho. I switched way back from grid to standard, but back then, I wasnt thaaaatt used to grid (was back in bronze, I had like 50 games back then. I found the change to be pretty easy...after a couple of games (and misclicks^^) I got used to it  just go ahead and train them in custom games
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Grid just seems optimimal unless you are familiar with default from previous games or just started out using default. I don't think changing would be any more beneficial, I mean you'll still make mistakes either way so I doubt it would make much difference.
But if you think you would benefit then may as well give it a go I guess.
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On July 14 2011 17:22 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
I used grid style in WC3 and have continued using it in SC2. I really prefer it, because you can get to every command very quickly, but it's just a matter of taste.
Standard isn't going to save you from misclicking, though. There was an important PvP just recently that was lost due to a [G]uardian Shield being ordered instead of [H]old Position.
This is the reason I rebound hold to space.
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People often say Grid has the disadvantage of T attack. The issue is not with Grid but with the hotkey setup. I (P) place my army at 4, 5. 4-T & 5-T is far easier to press then 1-A & 2-A (at least on a German keyboard layout). With your pinky and/or ring finger you can activate the special abilites. This requires far less wrist movement.
Overall, you need to be accustomed to one layout, no matter what it is and once you're accustomed, don't switch. There are issues which are always more pressing than the layout...
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If I could offer my opinions on grid, I played random and started out with standard because of BW. In an effort to try to consolidate I then attempted to learn grid, and it was fine, except that I found one major problem with it.
Assuming that your hands fall into normal typing position like mine, and you are mousing with your right hand, in grid, a good deal of the most important hotkeys fall under the weakest fingers, the ring and little finger. Unless you are a musician you're not going to have developed decent motor dexterity in those fingers to be using them efficiently and both your reaction time and precision with those fingers will suffer. This will be most apparent when your trying to spam build commands. You might be able to circumvent that by using other digits, like your thumb, but imo that was not the point of grid in the first place, and it also invites misclicks due to erroneous hand movement. Hope this helped.
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T as attack in grid is a real pain IMO. I just set up my own custom setup with heavy influence from the cartesian hotkey thread that was a few pages back. I'm working on a new one that has hotkeys on 1 through six, Q A Z for 7 8 9 respectively, and ~ for 0. The idea is that 1 Q A Z, like the cartesian hotkey setup, is for macro, and everything other than that is units and upgrades.
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I customized all my hotkeys, but the main idea is to have a units main ability on "R", less important on E, W and Q in sequence. Also, the hotykeys for the main buildings are placed around around the "R" button. So Basically, I got somewhat of a grid system, just customized to be optimized for not having to move my hand at all when I play.
QWER for skills, ASDFT for hold, stop, attack, move, patrol.
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I started out using standard, then changed to grid because i thought it would be better to have all keys together.. But after i while playing with grid, i changed back. I have pretty long fingers and feel kinda constricted to 1-5, and the rows below with the grid.
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I switched from Grid to Standard with a few minor modifications. They way I did it was that I kept playing with Grid in 1v1 and used the Standard hotkeys for 2v2 or custom games against friends, until I memorized all of the keys. Since then I never want to switch back to Grid again.
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Canada13389 Posts
I like Grid personally and will never change. My hands are small for a man and I have been biting my nails for years. I have stubby fingers and am not super dextrous, therefore all the keys together are super super helpful.
Note: by small I mean if I stretch as far as I can my left pinky on control I can almost reach 0 with my thumb. So for people with tiny hands grid is great I would hate to have to get over to G for guardian shield. Ring finger on one and I just am able to reach G with my index finger >.<
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Neither Grid or Standard make any sense IMHO.
I have all of my spell keys bound to Q (and WER and so forth)
Feedback? Q
Graviton Beam? Q
Force Field? Q
Blink? Q
Since you can only have one unit family selected at a time. It makes zero sense to have different keys for different spells. So they should probably all be the same.
For buildings I use a standard grid layout, but you can do whatever is comfortable here. Build basic unit is Q, advanced is W. Nexus is Q.
When approaching the game from this standpoint (units do not need there own spell hotkeys since you cant have more than one family selected at a time). You free up so very very many keys for more control groups. Control scheme in this game really does confer a very large advantage over your opponents.
For control groups I use ~ through 4. Middle Click, and my 4th and 5th mouse buttons. Additionally, this frees up keys for use with camera locking, so you can reduce the amount of times you click on the minimap which will help your APM soar.
Where is this important? Tell a standard user to tell his unit to move somewhere and then queue up a patrol command.
Yeah, Shift + P. Maybe Kobe Bryant and the rest of the NBA can show you how to do that. Or maybe you'd like to hit the right shift key with your left hand. Yeah that's not slow as balls or anything.
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OK, sure, reaching is bad. What's so terrible about standard, then? Classic is awful from an ergonomic standpoint, but it's pretty rare in standard to have to reach past TGB, except for Hold Position. Ultra cavern/Infestor pit/ultralisk are the only things I can think of, and they don't exactly come up super often. Also, I'm comfortable reaching up to UJM, but no farther. Standard works fine for me, but maybe that's because it builds off of classic, and I played BW?
I actually would say 3A4A5A would be ideal - 1T2T feels a bit awkward, and I understand the obnoxiousness of 1A2A - I end up hitting 1 with my ring finger and A with my pinky, rather than using one finger for both.
If you like grid, it's not objectively worse than any other layout, but I'd contest that standard isn't either. It only has you reach for rare occasions (I don't really feel like H is a reach. And misclicking G for H is just as likely as any other misclicking with sentries.)
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On July 14 2011 22:48 sylverfyre wrote:
OK, sure, reaching is bad. What's so terrible about standard, then? Classic is awful from an ergonomic standpoint, but it's pretty rare in standard to have to reach past TGB, except for Hold Position. Ultra cavern/Infestor pit/ultralisk are the only things I can think of, and they don't exactly come up super often. Also, I'm comfortable reaching up to UJM, but no farther. Standard works fine for me, but maybe that's because it builds off of classic, and I played BW?
I actually would say 3A4A5A would be ideal - 1T2T feels a bit awkward, and I understand the obnoxiousness of 1A2A - I end up hitting 1 with my ring finger and A with my pinky, rather than using one finger for both.
If you like grid, it's not objectively worse than any other layout, but I'd contest that standard isn't either. It only has you reach for rare occasions (I don't really feel like H is a reach. And misclicking G for H is just as likely as any other misclicking with sentries.)
Whats bad about it is that for no apparent reason all spells are completely all over the keyboard when they can be folded into a spell1 spell2 spell 3 setup that makes way more sense because you cannot have more than one family selected at a time.
If they implemented some sort of system that allowed multiple classes to be selected at a time for spell use, then standard makes a lot more sense.
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I've said this before but noone rly noticed it and would like some thoughts on this (note how I am not claiming anything to be better so no reason to go all defensive :p)
Standard seems to promote using keys all over the keyboard which lines up well with using all the different control groups and camera locations. When using Grid I feel pushed into the left side so much that I don't use 7-8-9-0 (and the corresponding F-keys) often enough.
Right?
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On July 14 2011 22:56 Meancookie wrote:
I've said this before but noone rly noticed it and would like some thoughts on this (note how I am not claiming anything to be better so no reason to go all defensive :p)
Standard seems to promote using keys all over the keyboard which lines up well with using all the different control groups and camera locations. When using Grid I feel pushed into the left side so much that I don't use 7-8-9-0 (and the corresponding F-keys) often enough.
Right?
Right, but you can just rebind all keys in the game now. Those keys that are all over the place can be folded into one key or eliminated completely which can let you free up enough room so you can just stay on the left hand side of the board 100 percent of the time unless you are a SERIOUS control group user that uses all of the control groups at the same time. Camera locations included.
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On July 14 2011 20:10 Meancookie wrote:
Right now I use a slightly altered grid because i come from a FPS/MMORPG background where you (as a righthanded person) keep your left hand on the left side of your keyboard. Also, I play on a laptop so because the screen/keyboard location reaching all the way on the right is really hard.
However, I find that because I stick with mainly the left side of the keyboard, I have a hard time using all the control groups (especially 7-8-9; I rebound 0 to the button on the left of "1") and as I'm buying a usb keyboard soon (basically gonna use my laptop as a computer with seperate screen/keyboard/mouse) I will be switching to standard to force myself to be able to hit buttons all over the keyboard accuratly
The ability to change hotkeys actually means you can improve the grid layout by putting your hotkeys around the grid. My group hotkeys are ^-6 (^ is ~ on the American layout), then h and n. Since Z (Y on American layout) is my warpgate shortcut, my unit selection hotkeys wrap around the top and right sides of my grid.
I've also got space mapped to a location hotkey for my proxy pylons. F1-4 are locations (my bases usually, for quickly chronoing probes), and my tenth hotkey is under my thumb on my mouse, which I use for either the probe building my forward pylons or harassing units.
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I use standard and I play random. Thank you Blizzard for letting us customize our hotkeys unlike Brood War. I got all my keys set up for all three races.
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custom hotkeys definitely >> grid > standard. if you want to play more than one race i'd say some type of grid setup will make your life 100x easier.
personally i use custom grid where 123qwsdfzx are control groups, and the rest is grid hotkeys. basically allows me to easily use any control group, and spells/building stuff is right next to the ctrl group that uses it. On top of that spells are always the same key, and playing with off races doesn't require learning new hotkeys.
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I use standard modified with some changes to make it so all hotkeys are reachable without moving my hand. It took about 50 games to get used to it. Just play team games until you have it down.
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I used grid setup from release until january, and the biggest problem for me was that the same key to make banelings was the key you used to blow them up, so I switched. It took me about 3 matches of 4v4 to switch over completely to standard.. and it's much better. So, try it out.
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I used grid and loved it for war3.
I use standard for Sc2. If I really wanted to be competitive, I would make a custom set up. But I do fine with just standard. There are a few spell casters I dont like - psy storm being one, but its not hard to get used to it.
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On July 14 2011 18:18 ZzZBored wrote:
As a zerg player grid can be very, very dangerous when morphing banelings. Personally, I find that my control groups are more effective using grid, but its really just personal preference
THIS! I would be sooo glad if you could use grid, but just customize a few keys. For example i would like to morph blings and select larvae with the top left key, but otherwise have grid.
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EPT
