For those of us who were around SC1 in the beginning, I think there are a lot of similarities to how SC2 is developing. The orginal competition in BW between Koreans and foreigners was negligable. The Koreans were very good, yes, but there were a lot of foreign players who competed with them at the top like Grrrr, Elky, Saft, Everlast, Asmodey etc etc. Once the professional side of the game became ingrained in Korea though, the foreigners slowly fell away.
I agree with the sentiments about the game being "easier" (for lack of a better word here). I think SC2 is more volatile than BW which gives us varying results at times. It's not so volatile the game is broken though. The game still rewards the best players who dedicate time into the game as is evidenced by the Korean dominance.
SC2 still has a long way to go in how the game is played and it will be interesting to see it develop. Hopefully the foreign scene can stay strong, but if I were a betting man, I'd say it will go the way of BW where we have a big gap between the Korean and foreign communites.
SC2's mechanics are easier, no one is arguing that. You saying that BW is superior because of the fact that the pros have to do repetitive macro that takes way more APM than it should, well that's just kind of silly :\
I'm surprised more people aren't celebrating the mechanics being easier. It seems to me it allows more depth to the play in regards to actual unit control and positioning if you have less apm devoted to maintaining your macro. I'm also a little surprised people think SC2 has a lower skill ceiling after one year of play. I never really followed BW in depth but over the past year the game has really seen a lot of drastic changes in game play styles and strategies. Mind you this is without 2 expansions to the game which are coming down the pipe; god only knows what that will bring. BW had what, 10 years of devoted gameplay to it?
On July 13 2011 14:54 Snorkle wrote: All i hear when i read this article. (old but still relevant especially in light of the NASL finals where we are finally starting to see what SC2 can look like)
On July 15 2011 08:31 lorkac wrote: BW: macro was hard but the game forgives you for making mistakes.
SC2: Macro is easy but the game rewards perfect play.
I wonder which sounds more appealing?
The reason BW rewards mistakes is because micro has a much higher high skill ceiling in BW and has way more opportunity's to micro. There is huge variance between micro even at the pro level because every single unit can be micro'd to be 100x more effective then it was otherwise.
In a ZvZ between a lower level amateur and a pro in a 12 pool vs 9 pool speed situation with 6 zerglings vs 6 zerglings, if the 12 pooling player holds without losing any drones he is at a very advantages situation, the pro will ALWAYS come out advantageous because even a simple unit can be micro'd and positioned to be much much more effective, not one player wins with 1 ling with half hp left more effective, like one player will have 3 medium-high health zerglings left over.
And for macro its a common site to see idle barracks for periods of time or a zerg with 3 larve on each hatchery,the macro is hard because of no mbs obviously and the fact that theres SO MUCH to do that even flash cant do everything he wants any given time, because macro is hard the player with better macro/micro always has a chance to come back and nearly every great game of BW involves a seemingly impossible comeback from one player.
Sc2 cant be like this because nearly all units are A-move or smartcasting makes for barley any variance between micro at the pro level, and macro is so easy that every single high level player has absolutely perfect macro unless he has a stroke during the game.
A video game with no opportunity's for top players to climb above other players will always degenerate into luck/build order battles and mind games, since near prefect play is so easy to achieve. All the talk about "outsmarting" your opponent is all bullshit and ridiculous.
I wonder which game sounds more appealing?
Uh, the bolded statement (and the whole post) boggles me. Aside from nitpicky stats, how are Zerglings and Drones any different between BW and SC2? Except for the exact number changes (and I don't even know if there are any for health/damage), they are exactly the same. Just because there are no crazy 6 Zergling micro wars going on right now doesn't mean there can't be.
Units are about as a-move in SC2 as they were in BW, except now they're smarter. To quote Day9, you don't "need 200 APM to get a Dragoon to walk down a ramp". That's not a bad thing, that's fixing crappy AI.
The game isn't a year old yet. It will evolve, things will change, plays will get cooler.
Drones and zerglings behave way different in BW.
All BW units can be microed to create a HUGE advantage over your opponent, this only holds true for some SC2 units and the margin is much smaller.
Like you implied, there are quite a few A-move units in BW, the difference is that BW had much more dynamic relationships between other units, dragoons and hydras on paper are A-move units, however because of tanks, spider-mines and psi-storm you almost never just a-move them. You have to spread dragoons against tanks, manually target spider mines, drag spider mines, spread hydras, use overlords to detect mines, etc.
I'd definitely agree more with this article than I would with elephant in the room. I don't think the player pool is the issue, it's the fact that I can play this game 5 hours a week and maintain near perfect macro. In BW I find it exceedingly hard to control my money and balance my economy while doing everything.
I believe you hit the nail on the head. You won't see as much dominance because the fundamentals of BW required effort to maintain good at. Basically in SC2 macro is almost automated and you just need to knowing timings and strategy. You essentially will never see a style like Pusan who just outmacro'd people with T1 because macro is practically automated. So while the "best" BW players might not have switched I don't believe that has anything to do with how the games fundamentally different in the skills necessary to play them.
On July 13 2011 19:05 Petninja wrote: I think one of the problems with the idea that we aren't seeing any Flashes or Jaedongs in SC2 is precisely because they don't play SC2. It's not exactly like they were commonplace in BW. While I don't want to sound like I'm devaluing hard work, there is a certain degree of natural talent that can't be denied that makes players like Flash. It shouldn't be a shock that if such rare finds are still playing BW that SC2 just doesn't have that caliber player because there hasn't been time for new talent at that level to surface.
We won't be able to see what the skill ceiling looks like in SC2 vs BW unless we have someone who has legendary status like Flash come to SC2 from BW(while in his prime). It wouldn't surprise me at all if these legendary pokemon made the switch to SC2 the other pro players wouldn't have enough pokeballs to catch any of them.
Basically we need to wait until someone appears that can really bump their head on the skill ceiling before we can claim that it is, in fact, a problem.
I don't like this assumption at all, players like moon and grubby switched over to SC2 who were considered similar to what jaedong/flash were considered. The statement like that assumes that only 2/6 billion people can play the way they do, which I believe is a fallacy.
Koreans and foreigners are playing each other constantly and foreigners are winning games from even the current top Korean players. Sure, Koreans are still winning more, but the gap has narrowed. Magically. In a year. 12 years of BW and the foreign scene can't touch Korea, but in 1 year SC2 has a robust competitive group of foreigners? Maybe it's the lack of BW Koreans making the switch, but maybe not.
Your premise and logic regarding Koreans vs foreigners is fundamentally flawed. It is BECAUSE SC2 is only 1 year old that the foreign scene is keeping up (sort of) with the Korean scene, because the superior Korean training has not been working its magic for as long as it has with Brood War.
You only have to look at the small but notable number of foreigners that competed in the Korean scene early on in Brood War (remind you of the few foreigners in the GSL?) without necessarily being part of a pro house to see that Brood War was in the exact same situation as SC2 was when it was a younger game.
besides the above idiotic quoted paragraph though, great article and some excellent points.
People will eventually find something worthwhile to do with the down time better A.I. offers ... hopefully that something will be more interesting to watch/do than executing the same repetitive things over and over until they work like clockwork
On July 13 2011 19:05 Petninja wrote: I think one of the problems with the idea that we aren't seeing any Flashes or Jaedongs in SC2 is precisely because they don't play SC2. It's not exactly like they were commonplace in BW. While I don't want to sound like I'm devaluing hard work, there is a certain degree of natural talent that can't be denied that makes players like Flash. It shouldn't be a shock that if such rare finds are still playing BW that SC2 just doesn't have that caliber player because there hasn't been time for new talent at that level to surface.
We won't be able to see what the skill ceiling looks like in SC2 vs BW unless we have someone who has legendary status like Flash come to SC2 from BW(while in his prime). It wouldn't surprise me at all if these legendary pokemon made the switch to SC2 the other pro players wouldn't have enough pokeballs to catch any of them.
Basically we need to wait until someone appears that can really bump their head on the skill ceiling before we can claim that it is, in fact, a problem.
I don't like this assumption at all, players like moon and grubby switched over to SC2 who were considered similar to what jaedong/flash were considered. The statement like that assumes that only 2/6 billion people can play the way they do, which I believe is a fallacy.
Did Moon sleep only 3 hours a night?
Did Moon play so much his fingers started bleeding?
Does Moon optimise his practise by not playing and playing the starting from late-game in his head?
The game is still young, I think we can't really say these things before the game has been more balanced, We got two expansions comming out. Just think of how much Brood War changed Starcraft.
So, just out of curiosity - who here has actually even played Brood War? Because I've played SC2 for 3-4 months or so to formulate my opinions about the game (ie. it's easy as balls).
Anyway, I was terrible at Brood War (C- at best) but I got to a decent level in SC2, and I barely ever practiced or watched replays. I think that says something. Or maybe I'm just an SC2 genius, right?
If you're even going to argue about SC2 vs BW, you should have at least played both games.
On July 15 2011 11:01 masami.sc wrote: So, just out of curiosity - who here has actually even played Brood War? Because I've played SC2 for 3-4 months or so to formulate my opinions about the game (ie. it's easy as balls).
Anyway, I was terrible at Brood War (C- at best) but I got to a decent level in SC2, and I barely ever practiced or watched replays. I think that says something. Or maybe I'm just an SC2 genius, right?
If you're even going to argue about SC2 vs BW, you should have at least played both games.
This to me feels like a realistic post. Most people either want their SC2 skills to matter or havnt played BW :D
On July 15 2011 11:01 masami.sc wrote: So, just out of curiosity - who here has actually even played Brood War? Because I've played SC2 for 3-4 months or so to formulate my opinions about the game (ie. it's easy as balls).
Anyway, I was terrible at Brood War (C- at best) but I got to a decent level in SC2, and I barely ever practiced or watched replays. I think that says something. Or maybe I'm just an SC2 genius, right?
If you're even going to argue about SC2 vs BW, you should have at least played both games.
This to me feels like a realistic post. Most people either want their SC2 skills to matter or havnt played BW :D
Basically everyone defending SC2 hasnt gotten above D+/C- in BW or never even played it at all :/
come on guys, you can't seriously use the excuse "sc2 has only been out for a year! It will evolve so much in the future! Look how much BW changed since its first year!"
It's a fucking joke, sc2 had 10 years of development, hundreds of millions of dollars invested, the perfect template to build off of (established bw scene), pro gamer input, etc. Then look at the development of BW... the genre of RTS barely existed, pro gaming lol wut's that?, basically built from scratch but with intentions of good gameplay and the best user environment possible at the time. Blizzard's philosophy has obviously changed from making a good game to making the most money possible. It's as simple as that and the ludicrous shortcomings of SC2 make this fact pretty obvious.
Players are already pushing the skill ceiling in SC2, the fact that it's so low means that a lot of players are bumping their head on it, which is why we are seeing new tournament winners all the time. There was an interview with Elky awhile back where he talked about how when he used to play war3, the top 20 or so players were all pretty much at the same skill level, since you couldn't really do much to distinguish yourself because everyone was already pushing the game to it's limit. The only hope for SC2 right now are the expansions (lol, milk those customers blizz), which better end up being more like sequels since the game is so fundamentally broken right now.
However, these expansions will be more like 'stays of execution' than anything though. If HoTS wasn't coming out, SC2 would just end up as a train wreck in a year or 2 when when every serious player is equally perfect at the game, and the only thing still happening is are slight nerfs/buffs and map changes every few months where each race takes turns being imba. This would go on for awhile until people finally see what a shitty game it is, people stop caring, sponsorship money dries up, and blizz jumps on the next gravy train (world of starcraft, complete with cartoon graphics and facebook integration). The game simply wouldn't be able to stand on its own two legs without the crutch that is blizzard's marketing/prizes/promotion/etc. like BW is doing now. SC2 gameplay is just straight up too shallow.
I'm not even going to get into how terrible b.net 2.0 is, but i'll make a list of a few highlights for lulz: lol launch with no chatrooms lol 1 account lol leagues/promotion system with absolutely no objective indicator of skill lol especially at grandmaster system especially lol at absolutely no clan support at all lol at lack of any kind of tournament support function within the game lol at blizzard's attempt at maps lol at pre-planned 3 part game lol at racial balance and blizzard's approach to it lol at no cross region play lol at no LAN or some kind of reasonable alternative lol at micro almost not even mattering in any sizable battle lol at ridiculous 1a super units (roach/marauder/colossus) lol at zerg in general lol at the game's performance in korea lol at a full page of profile statistics that give me less info than my US.East profile with win/loss/disc lol at micro patches lol at custom map system lol at graphics looking totally different depending on settings, no standard competitive setting lol at cartoony graphics lol at awful unit sounds
Maybe i'll add more in the future if I think of them
On July 15 2011 11:01 masami.sc wrote: So, just out of curiosity - who here has actually even played Brood War? Because I've played SC2 for 3-4 months or so to formulate my opinions about the game (ie. it's easy as balls).
Anyway, I was terrible at Brood War (C- at best) but I got to a decent level in SC2, and I barely ever practiced or watched replays. I think that says something. Or maybe I'm just an SC2 genius, right?
If you're even going to argue about SC2 vs BW, you should have at least played both games.
This to me feels like a realistic post. Most people either want their SC2 skills to matter or havnt played BW :D
Basically everyone defending SC2 hasnt gotten above D+/C- in BW or never even played it at all :/
I'd say its more to do with watchers than players. Most players who watch both SC2 and BW avidly, and I mean who are subscribed to nevake and watch most of his vods but also keep up with the SC2 scene will tell you they prefer BW. Even if they can't stay above E rank.
Which is why the OP says go watch some BW VODs before forming an opinion. I would go further and say subscribe to nevake. Of course not every BW game is awesome, and a lot of games that get shown as "good games" aren't interesting to people new to BW.
Instead of showing Boxers comeback which is boring if you don't know the game, if they were shown things like the 72 kill reaver of Snow, of the 42 kill dragoon, things would be different.
On July 13 2011 14:54 Snorkle wrote: All i hear when i read this article. (old but still relevant especially in light of the NASL finals where we are finally starting to see what SC2 can look like) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mxypu9WC8c&feature=related
hot bid on point as per usual.
WORD
true this man, is it really that easy? all the people saying SC2 is super easy, what level are you? rank 1 GM winning all the tournies, no probably diamond, mid masters, you don't have it mastered so if it's easy are you dumb that you can't master it or is it really not easy
On July 13 2011 14:54 Snorkle wrote: All i hear when i read this article. (old but still relevant especially in light of the NASL finals where we are finally starting to see what SC2 can look like) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mxypu9WC8c&feature=related
hot bid on point as per usual.
WORD
true this man, is it really that easy? all the people saying SC2 is super easy, what level are you? rank 1 GM winning all the tournies, no probably diamond, mid masters, you don't have it mastered so if it's easy are you dumb that you can't master it or is it really not easy
WORD
Oh wait its wrong, have you guys played Warcraft 2? The mechanics are easier because its a low economy game. The unit selection size was made bigger because you would usually have 200 units instead of 50, however the unit selection wasn't even increased 4 times, only increased 50%. This makes controlling armies harder in BW than in War2.
Because BW is a high economy game, you also have a lot more production buildings, and have to focus on multiple bases. The mechanics required in BW are much much higher than in War2.
And please stop reducing BW down to clicks, if BW had infinite unit selection, MBS, and smart-casting and "perfect pathing", it would still be much more interesting to watch and play than SC2.
The article had nothing to do with the amount of clicks. Do you think Jaedong is good at muta micro because he can click more? Do you think Snows 72 kill reaver came from clicking a lot? That's what skill ceiling is, and its not just about hitting it, even the average joe can get a lot out of just perfecting one unit. I am still waiting for a 72 kill colossus using phase prims or a 42 kill stalker against 2 rax scv all in.
EPT
