The Rhino in the Room - Page 37

On July 15 2011 11:44 Lumire wrote:

Basically everyone defending SC2 hasnt gotten above D+/C- in BW or never even played it at all :/

On July 15 2011 12:01 Yaotzin wrote:
BW trolls are so boring. Saddening that they survive bans for some reason.

On July 15 2011 12:05 101toss wrote:

Not really, seeing as a lot of the criticism is objectively correct

On July 15 2011 12:07 starcraft911 wrote:
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but I don't expect to see a Flash of SC2 any time soon and even if flash came to sc2 during beta I don't think he would have an easy time being dominant.

On July 15 2011 12:06 Yaotzin wrote:

If I commented in BW forums that BW has shit graphics/ui etc, it would be objectively true and would also - rightly - get me banned.

Stop shitting up forums for a game you apparently don't like. It's stupid.

On July 15 2011 12:05 KillerPenguin wrote:
I played both games a lot and I'm one of the few players who think SC2 is way better. I think there is a lot of bias coming from the older players which is natural from people who learn how to do things one way and then are forced to do them another way.

Returning to sc1 before sc2 came out almost made me want to cry the graphics and lag were so much worse than I had remembered them. I completely disagree that the skill cap is lower. The skill is just different just as the skill is different for chess and many other things. I think automining was a HUGE step in the right direction I always hated going crazy with my screens to be more efficient at mining especially when I'm apm challenged with 100 apm. I'm sorry I don't move much faster than 100 apm even after thousands of games and practice and training I just cannot I actually picked protoss in SC1 because of my apm trouble. On PGT everyone I played doubled my apm and it really bummed me out and I quit because I knew it was practically a requirement to have over 200apm to be a real progamer. In SC2 I don't feel the same way and there are some progamers who do fine with very low apm that doesn't mean the game is worse that means the game is better. I don't have to constantly hotkey spam and send probes to mine nearly as much so I can focus on strategy and battle micro like I want to.

This is a strategy game the main goal should be strategy not who can click the fastest and make the least mistakes. SC2 is less about who can click the fastest and make the least mistakes so I say the skill is better than SC1. I will agree however that generally SC2 is more aggressive, partially because of warp gate and that makes the games shorter and therefore more volatile, siege tanks are the opposite of this and make the game more defensive, longer, less volatile for pros so they can actually become bonjwas.

On July 15 2011 12:11 101toss wrote:

It's fucking retarded that people get dropped during tournaments because B.net 0.2 is so bad and there are no alternatives/LAN. It's not trolling, it's a fact.

Also, the SC2 skill ceiling is lower. That's a fact. It's not trolling, it's providing an explanation to the current proscene scenario

On July 15 2011 12:05 101toss wrote:

Not really, seeing as a lot of the criticism is objectively correct

On July 15 2011 12:11 101toss wrote:

It's fucking retarded that people get dropped during tournaments because B.net 0.2 is so bad and there are no alternatives/LAN. It's not trolling, it's a fact.

Also, the SC2 skill ceiling is lower. That's a fact. It's not trolling, it's providing an explanation to the current proscene scenario

On July 13 2011 14:39 yosisoy wrote:
Why do people consider it good that in BW you had to struggle to do mundane tasks and complain that in SC2 you have MBS and auto-mine? It's a STRATEGY game, not a clicking competition. It's like complaining that we as humans have auto-breathe and coordination implemented - plain silly.

As much as I admire good mechanics and people's abilities to be able to control multiple bases, structures and attack fronts, I personally don't consider that aspect as what I want to be the main criteria that wins games. BW is often compared to chess, yet the game of kings has NOTHING to do with "mechanics". Someone without hands could play chess perfectly well.

Final point: BroodWar's design had major flaws that we've gotten used to and now some of us actually except new games to have the same flaws, and focus on the technical sound of the game instead of the strategy/tactics.

On July 15 2011 11:01 masami.sc wrote:
Anyway, I was terrible at Brood War (C- at best) but I got to a decent level in SC2, and I barely ever practiced or watched replays. I think that says something. Or maybe I'm just an SC2 genius, right?

On July 15 2011 12:10 Yaotzin wrote:

Nestea, Bomber, MC etc all have very similar win rates to Flash. What is this mythical Flash level dominance that is allegedly impossible in SC2?

On July 15 2011 12:35 genius_man16 wrote:



^^Pretty much this.

I'm always completely befuddled why all these BW elitists think that adding unlimited unit selection, MBS, and making better pathing AI is a bad thing for the game.

So it's bad that I don't have to babysit my 10 marauders walking up a ramp?
It's bad that I don't have to spend 50% of my time going back to my command center to send the newly made SCV to mine?
It's bad that I can build out of my 3 barracks without having to either devote 3 hotkeys to them or look back at my base?

Completely baffling to me. A STRATEGY game, like you said, should never be about overcoming the game design flaws (and yes, the pathing AI, etc, were FLAWS in BW, regardless of how long ago it was made) it should be about the strategy, and SC2 is leagues ahead of BW in that department.

On July 15 2011 12:47 Royalcommand wrote:


trying adding 200+ games buddy ----____----

On July 15 2011 12:10 Yaotzin wrote:

Nestea, Bomber, MC etc all have very similar win rates to Flash. What is this mythical Flash level dominance that is allegedly impossible in SC2?

On July 15 2011 12:56 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:

I don't want to address most of everyone else in this thread who seem to have never played BW in their lives, but I did want to say something about this.

You're using Flash's career win rate which is spread over four years as comparison. When Flash decided to turn on god mode, he went close to 85% over eight months, and 90% in Proleague. These wins were over opponents who had practiced specifically to snipe Flash with specially tailored builds on a map they've trained for days, and Flash didn't even know which race he'd face next.

Over the course of five months, he was 26-2 versus Protoss, which is supposed to be Terran's weak match-up in BW. He single-handedly carried his team to Winner's League gold, and was in every starleague final, simultaneously, for three consecutive seasons, finally winning two at the same time which had only ever been done once before in BW's history. Along the way, he broke every Elo peak on TLPD, reached over 4000 points on the KeSPA ranking, and set the record for longest win streak in a match-up in official games. All of this while constantly innovating and setting strategical trends for the Terran race, 12 years after the game's release and against the highest level of competition ever, rather than "just clicking faster than the opponent."

People would make threads asking when he would ever lose, and the Korean commentators themselves theorycrafted about how Protoss could ever hope to beat him. "Mythical Flash level dominance" is right.