On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
Feel free to argue my points.
This thread is about people who set trends, not people who had playstyles that were permanently viable always forever. No build has stood the test of every shift in metagame forever
On July 10 2011 13:23 Bambipwnsu wrote: Why is there not oGsTOP?
Remember when everyone was 2 rax vs protoss. Then TOP came around and 4-0ed MC and the replays got released?
TOP wasn't really a new style; he simply played Terran vs Protoss perfectly in that series. His drops were everywhere, his expos were everywhere and he STILL managed to hold off ridiculous aggression when MC decided to turn it on. Still, e-five for remembering these replays! Those replays simply blew my mind when I watched them. I may have pulled an Artosis and cried. To this day, I still anxiously await TOP to just run in and dominate everyone.
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
Feel free to argue my points.
This thread is about people who set trends, not people who had playstyles that were permanently viable always forever. No build has stood the test of every shift in metagame forever
Tank/Marine has pretty much always been what most terran used
It's just over the months, the terrans who could micro well and macro well and drop well stood out, and the ones abusing faster bunkers or thor cliff drop died out after the patches
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
Feel free to argue my points.
This thread is about people who set trends, not people who had playstyles that were permanently viable always forever. No build has stood the test of every shift in metagame forever
Tank/Marine has pretty much always been what most terran used
It's just over the months, the terrans who could micro well and macro well and drop well stood out, and the ones abusing faster bunkers or thor cliff drop died out after the patches
There was a long time after MKP vs Kyrix that terran didn't make siege tank. It wasn't until after that point that tank/marine started becoming standard. Then tank/marine got broken by MKP again with mass marines. Not to mention tank/marine has never been standard in tvp and very often wasn't standard in tvt. Tanks were scarce early on because people didn't know how to handle marauders. And don't forget 5 rax reaper
On July 10 2011 13:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: Didn't Nazgul invent the 4-gate? If so, then he's definitely up there.
I don't think so. I know that he was the guy who "countered" idra with blink stalkers, but not sure if it was him who invented the build.
Who would be considered the Protoss who brought 4-gate onto the scene?
I think I remember White-ra 4gating Tasteless in the HDH during the beta, but again, not sure if he was the one who brought it into the scene. But that's the earliest I can think of in terms of 4gates.
NaDa for sure, after he did a mech style gas before rax opening vs. Virus in the Super Tournament everyone started to do it. I know it was somewhat used before then, but NaDa really "set the trend".
I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
On July 10 2011 14:21 Syben wrote: I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
xiaot vs idra MC vs idra basically any game where idra loses to blink stalkers really.. XD everyone was doing it way before him, tbh.
On July 10 2011 14:21 Syben wrote: I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
xiaot vs idra MC vs idra basically any game where idra loses to blink stalkers really.. XD everyone was doing it way before him, tbh.
Clearly, IdrA popularized the blink stalker strategy.
EPT
