On July 11 2011 05:43 BlizzrdSlave wrote:On July 11 2011 02:38 Shiv. wrote:On July 11 2011 02:28 BlizzrdSlave wrote:On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote:
Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
No offense intended, but:
You are not capable of designing builds that work at the very highest level. You are not. The people this thread is about are.
Besides: how is 3 macro hatches no expand even closely related to the Spanishiwa build?
I would give Destiny credit for great infestor use, but that's about it. I really think Zerg lacks some pioneers. Besides the obvious spanishiwa.
Im not denying that they popularized these functions and made them work at high levels of play. Im not denying that double in base macro hatch is different, but as I said, I won with it so heavily and regularly that people called it ice fisher, yet there was a huge glaring weakness in it because sometimes I would get stomped. so I had to tweak it and ended up with something that looks very similar to the actual ice fisher build.
And I've been using baneling bust on PFs for a while, seeing as roaches take too long, and all other units have shit for health, whereas committing to mutas to take it down makes you weak to terrans number 1 spammed unit: marine. banelings obviate that problem AND are easier to hit the target than ultras without being taken down, provided u screen well or draw the army away. Ultralisks are great at breaking PFs, IF there's no army around.
On July 11 2011 03:23 Oboeman wrote:
I think Leenock is a great innovating zerg. I don't know if he's established anything incredibly game changing, but there are always aspects of his gameplay that show he is thinking about the matchup and not just copying other players.
- mutalisk armor
- muta/ling with very few banelings and carapace on lings
- upgrading ranged attack from the early on in the game and then doing huge switch to roaches at +3 against mech
- sending 2nd overlord out to a key scouting location instead of the natural. Patrolled a drone to look for bunkers instead.
none of them have stuck as huge game changers, but you never know! I see promise in some of his ideas, and it's cool that his play is evolving.
I also think Leenock's 1-base infestor in ZvZ could be worth mentioning. Not that 1-base infestor is a good build, but it was kind of eye-opening.
In one of the early open seasons, the first BIG use of burrowed banelings that I remember was teriousfOu (against Loner?) where he had banelings burrowed everywhere, all over the map, all game, every game. His opponent basically could not use mules.
oh. and mondragon. It may have been only 2 games, but those were 2 important games.
I have two questions: what happens if the terran army stays low tech and makes roach switch worthless at the end, thus wasting the time and resources spent grinding range up? Or is it handling the terran so well with most bio ball and air/hellion that they feel forced to switch to mech where the+3 roaches pop and take them down? has anyone tried going early evo to pump continual ups to make the swarm overpower at all timeframes of game? why couldnt the terran use mules? did he not get ravens, ever? did he not use turrets.
1 base infestor is pretty good because of the metagame. if you fast tech to it and hold off the obligatory sling/bling rush that comes 99.99% of every ZvZ game (and thus allows me to win by destroying it and then them), fast tech to infestor means they're still in low tech by the time they et their burrowed asses into the enemy mineral line.
OV to a scouting location that can also hide it = very good. like the buttes on the middle of shakuras. drone patrolling... ify. I prefer instead to pop 2 lings for pat AND kill power vs any bunkers going up. a drone not on mineral or gas is a pure waste imo. with 2 lings at least you're getting some other effects for wasting the droning time.
EPT
