Who do you guys think are trendsetter for each race base of Styles and Builds.
I play Protoss and have been watching all the GSLs and most other major tournaments so I can comment on Protoss.
The lists are constantly being modified based on feedback
PROTOSS
1. MVPgenius
As Tastosis said, this guy is always ahead of the curve sense the Beta.
When most people were still 2/4gating he was popularizing macro play. He then went on to using extremely fast collosus builds. Right before MC started dominating with mass force fields, Genius was using mass sentry builds. Genius then went on to use mass zealot builds with very fast armor upgrades and charge, rarely using stalkers. A great example of this style was Genius vs Boxer in Round 64 of the GSL Super Tournament. Recently Genius has been popularizing mass zealot Archon and only using colossus for late game play. Genius also popularized stopping drops with zealots instead of Stalkers.
2. oGsMC
MC is only slightly behind Genius on popularizing new styles. While Genius seems to be always creating new styles for PvT, MC seems to always be bringing the PvZ builds/styles. Most recently MC has been using 1gate expand, 2gate stargate, voidray to stop the "Losira style Roach ling rushes". This build is extremely refined and gets the first void ray out around 7:30 right when the rush reaches the protoss's base. MC is also noted for inventing the 3gate expand to 6gate timing attack vs Terran and many other gateway timing attacks.
3. YongHwa
While Genius and MC are busy setting trends in PvT and PvZ, YongHwa is one of the main people behind PvP. He revolutionized PvP with his 3 stalker rush build.
Special mentions
Nony First one to really popularize Phoenix builds in NA. Also helped refined a strong double forge colossus timing. Recently he has created a build that appeared on Day9 that includes extremly fast immortals to stop a 4gate in PvP.
Kiwikaki
Kiwikaki does not seem to actually popularize new styles,because they are so crazy, but if you want to see insane builds watch his games. Artosis calls him the "Mad scientist Protoss" just for this reason. For a while Kiwikaki refused to play Colosuss wars in PvP and focused on mass blink stalkers, Chargelots, and/or warp prism plays. As a big user of the Mship, one of his most noted amazing styles was using MShip to recall units after attacking.
Naniwa Not so much a trendsetter but great at refining builds and creating opening. Artosis even mentioned many times that he copies many builds from Naniwa.
TERRAN
1. MKP
After being joked on for using the ID Boxer he made a huge impact on the whole SC2 scene. Although MVP was the first to bring marine splitting to GSL matches, MKP bought it to another level. His micro and Marine splitting vs Kyrix was absolutely amazing. For a while his mass marine style took over the ladder.
ZERG
Who do you guys think are the trendsetters for all the races?
I will add the Other races to the OP onces I get some feedback. I don't know enough about Terran and Zerg to create a list on my own.
Also, if my list should be changed based on feedback I will edit it also. I think Genius and MC take the top 2 spots and Yongwha for creating the 3stalker rush but after that I need more input to create a final list
Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
Genius was the first to use the Colossus + phenix combo in lategame during (Blizzcon IIRC). It's with this build that I aggreed about the fact that he is a Genius
On July 10 2011 08:45 NEXPanDa wrote: Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
I forgot about YongHwa. His 3 stralker rush was huge in PvP.
On July 10 2011 08:49 Gamegene wrote: Naniwa and WhiteRa as trendsetters?
Completely disagree; they're popular but not exactly revolutionary.
You got a point. Although they don't create new styles, Naniwa has been known to create build extremely refined build orders. Who should be after Genius, Mc and YongHwa then?
Honestly, I would include HuK on the list of Protoss trendsetters, although I can't say all of his ideas are totally original. He was one of the first protoss I ever saw to try out all the variations of nexus first, forge FE, 1gate FE...he was trying to make FE work since way way back. Also, a couple of his ladder builds got really popular, and I believe he was the one to mass popularize cannons vs zerg hatch first. HuK is always trying builds out, and a lot of them are ahead of their time.
For Terran, definitely MarineKing, Jinro, and NaDa. MarineKing for obvious reasons. Jinro I feel was the first Terran to really make a solid macro style successful vP and vZ at the highest level. NaDa is still the genius Terran, his builds are so refined, and it seems like each one is tweaked just perfectly for his individual opponent. I believe he also assisted in the current trend of going Hellions in TvT.
For Terran, we have Thorzain who showed the power of upgrades and 2 starport play. We have MVP who showed everyone how to properly siege push. We have MMA who showed that dropping vs mutas was ezpz. We have Marineking who showed that the marine was a good unit, and pioneered imo the strongest build in the game, the 2 rax. We have bitbybit, who taught us how to all in.
There aren't any consistent trend setters though. The terrans develop play in packs. Mech TvT and gas first openings all started to be used by all Terrans. There certainly is no 1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate, or Losira timing. I suppose marineking was the first to show ghost timings, but this was for gsl.
MarineKing- Pioneering almost pure bio builds in every match up Nony-I believe one of the first to demonstrate how good phoenix are back in beta BitByBitPrime-the 2 rax scv marine pull, he did leave A legacy, just watch PrideTV's stream lol ;P
One could say InCa did with that fail GSL finals PvZ build. It was being used in so many tournaments, despite its absolute failure. Of course, it ended in like a week >.>
PoltPrime - Popularized the Bio/Banshee/Raven/SCV push, took Protoss months to figure that one out and can still pack a punch. He also recently showed us how to punish greedy teching in TvT even though he used an old an old build.
On July 10 2011 09:11 Mercury- wrote: PoltPrime - Popularized the Bio/Banshee/Raven/SCV push, took Protoss months to figure that one out and can still pack a punch. He also recently showed us how to punish greedy teching in TvT even though he used an old an old build.
Really/ I was under the impression painuser was actually among the first to do that, although admittedly my GSL viewership has been... inconsistent.
Sen has been the greatest inspiration to me as a Zerg player. His activity with the units and counteratacking constantly was very unique during the betaphase.
MarineKing is the biggest trendsetter for SC2 as a whole. Every build now a days is a product of what Marine King created. He made people realize that you could take short cuts as long as you micro your units as cost efficiently as possible to get huge advantages.
Jinro and MKP both led the Terran metagame in the first few GSLs. MKP created the tempo based, pure marine timings, focusing on micro. On the other hand, Jinro was the first Korean based Terran actually going for macro games. His style basically became the standard, and led to continued Terran dominance after MKP's pushes looked figured out, most notably being adopted MVP in his various GSL successes. Recently, MMA has caused shockwaves with his hyper aggressive, drop based TvZ, with only one player looking capable of matching him, DRG. While the drops have not been adopted as readily by Terran's at large, the constant aggression has become the standard to contain Zergs, displayed by SCfou in his series against DRG and Nestea.
On July 10 2011 09:19 Hypemeup wrote: Jinro played Macroterran way earlier than anyone else and now that is the buzz!
Would players like iEchoic or that spanishiwa guy count? They introduced new and unique styles to play their race.
I dont like 1 time shoot off players being included. Hes not a trendsetter if hes a one time thing. Same thing for Jinro. I don't think going against the norm and deciding to play macro just because 90% of code S terrans were scv alling(thebest/bitbybit) makes you a trend setter.
Although i'm surprised nobody even mentioned Adelscott. He's probably up there with Genius in terms of trend setting. Also TlO kinda for terran. Hes kind of like the Kiwikaki of terran.
In my own list, I would put Kiwikaki at 1 just because most if not all his builds are unique compared to everyone else. When you see someone build like Kiwikaki, you know they took it from him.
Yongwha number 1... the 2 base deathball, the 3 stalker rush... Yongwha and mc are the only ones who can be number 1. MC with his 2 base gateway timings made protoss competitive again. Before his gsl 3 run everyone thought protoss was bad
On July 10 2011 09:24 MrMotionPicture wrote: Terran would be MKP. That marine splitting was never seen before him.
MVP was marinesplitting before that.
Not in the same fashion of tempo based pure marine attacks. Or at least he was not doing those in televised GSL matches. MVP was more just pre-splitting at a tank based position, not splitting pure marines vs speedling baneling.
On July 10 2011 09:24 MrMotionPicture wrote: Terran would be MKP. That marine splitting was never seen before him.
Not true, mvp was the first one to use it in GSL vs Zenio on Jungle Basin. MKP was busy nuking noobs in his ro64 game. Nobody remembers mvp's game because he lost the series
On July 10 2011 09:11 Mercury- wrote: PoltPrime - Popularized the Bio/Banshee/Raven/SCV push, took Protoss months to figure that one out and can still pack a punch. He also recently showed us how to punish greedy teching in TvT even though he used an old an old build.
Really/ I was under the impression painuser was actually among the first to do that, although admittedly my GSL viewership has been... inconsistent.
Polt vs MC in the first round of the first gsl iirc
Fruitdealer - Risky or not his run in GSL 1 show cased strategies still in use today, was the first major user of baneling carpet bombing.
Dimaga - First pro-zerg to use a heavy queen count during his opening, the precursor to Spanishiwa.
Nestea - I'm still using his ZvZ openings from GSL 2-3 to this very day.
Destiny - Controversial I know but he was the trail blazer for the infestor heavy ZvZ style even before the new fungal growth and since then has been show casing a variety of infestor based ZvZ and ZvT styles.
Losira - Roach / Ling build vs 3 gate expand changed the very foundation of ZvP. Terran Trend Setter:
Bitbybit.prime - There was a good solid month where I'd yell "BIIIITTBYBIIIIIIT" in all chat as yet another terran player pulled f***** everything.
I'd say NaDa for a Terran trendsetter. It seems like in every tournament he pulls out awesome new builds, especially in TvT. Recently in the GSL he did a build based completely around harassment with reapers into hellions into banshees and it worked perfectly.
On July 10 2011 09:32 TheButtonmen wrote: Zerg Trend Setters:
Fruitdealer - Risky or not his run in GSL 1 show cased strategies still in use today, was the first major user of baneling carpet bombing.
Dimaga - First pro-zerg to use a heavy queen count during his opening, the precursor to Spanishiwa.
Nestea - I'm still using his ZvZ openings from GSL 2-3 to this very day.
Destiny - Controversial I know but he was the trail blazer for the infestor heavy ZvZ style even before the new fungal growth and since then has been show casing a variety of infestor based ZvZ and ZvT styles.
Losira - Roach / Ling build vs 3 gate expand changed the very foundation of ZvP.
I agree with these. Although I don't know if showing you can play the game purely with infestors counts as being a trendsetter.
On July 10 2011 09:24 MrMotionPicture wrote: Terran would be MKP. That marine splitting was never seen before him.
Not true, mvp was the first one to use it in GSL vs Zenio on Jungle Basin. MKP was busy nuking noobs in his ro64 game. Nobody remembers mvp's game because he lost the series
Yeah. He didn't scout the Brolords in time I think.
MKP showcased splitting against Rainbow's tanks later on in the same GSL though.
Terran jinro the pioneer of macro and mech in tvp MKP the pioneer of micro and bio in tvt TLO hellion play in tvz? nuke play in tvt? ghost opening in tvt? lategame ghosts in tvz long before the ghost buff 14cc on macro maps? Goody Mech play in all matchups
He practically invented the high econ banneling bust(I may be wrong but its not easy to be 100% sure about stuff like this). I'd say this lead to Terrans having to include Tanks in their pushes
Dimaga for zerg for his play way back in beta and creation (or at least popularizing) of the original baneling bust. Also other builds like the fast +1 ling build. I've probably learnt more from dimaga than any other zerg. Greatly underestimated. Oh how could I forget other builds like his heavy queens mass spine crawler vs protoss. He basically created his own version of the ice fisher a year before spanishiwa popularized it.
Nestea for always seeming to win with solid builds even when the odds are against him. Creative play such as 3 spine crawler rush to break a fast expand.
And MKP is the obvious terran. No one else has had nearly as much influence on the race. Also Jinro's original mech vs protoss to beat MC was pretty solid followed by thorzains mech.
I take from OP that trendesetter can mean both "a player that invented/popularized a lot of builds" or "a player that came up with a build with a huge influence". I think any player that is closely identified with pioneering a non-standard style could be a trendsetter.
Here are some candidates:
Losira - "losira timing" in ZvP that caused a huge impact in the matchup WhiteRa - lifetime achievement for special taktics, warp prism harass. Naniwa - the gate, robo, council with a wall-off in old patch PvP; the 2-gate pressure expand against Terran (may not be his build, but he popularized it); numerous cheeses; sets the trends for most optimal Protoss builds. MVP - double expading very early on TvT. Polt - the "polt timing push" in TvP, still viable after 8 months. Idra - the first popular "macro zerg" on sc2, copied by a lot of zergs. MorroW - abusing reapers as terran (not the first, but the most sucessful in foreigner scene maybe) and now the ling/bling constant drop style in ZvP Goody - immediate association with "terran mech style" BoxeR - close barracks in a lot of maps, bunker rushes, multiple OC in late game TvT BitByBit - like it or not, he popularized SCV all-ins like no one else. July - the one player you look up to as the agressive zerg. MKP - marine micro, one base ghost against protoss Tester - back in the Beta, the 2-gate proxy zealots and walling off the bottom of a Zerg base with cannons behind.
Hopefully Sage will be in the list a few months from now. : )
Where is WhiteRa? He was the first to make use of the void ray rush in the beta, and he was the first I saw early in the beta to do the cannon rush against zerg where you block the choke... though he may not have been the first. After the beta he popularized warp prism with many uses... using it with every protoss unit.
Losira is definitely a trendsetter of the roach-ling early game pressure, as well as the low econ roach ling bane style against protoss. Nestea's spine rush against forge fe was pretty damn trendy too.
Lz definitely was a trendsetter for Terran play, at and around release/beta, prior to his switch to Zerg. He used extremely unique builds such as the original 5 rax reaper play, the 3 factory timing push against gateway heavy protoss's, among other play.
On July 10 2011 09:32 TheButtonmen wrote: Zerg Trend Setters:
Fruitdealer - Risky or not his run in GSL 1 show cased strategies still in use today, was the first major user of baneling carpet bombing.
Dimaga - First pro-zerg to use a heavy queen count during his opening, the precursor to Spanishiwa.
Nestea - I'm still using his ZvZ openings from GSL 2-3 to this very day.
Destiny - Controversial I know but he was the trail blazer for the infestor heavy ZvZ style even before the new fungal growth and since then has been show casing a variety of infestor based ZvZ and ZvT styles.
Losira - Roach / Ling build vs 3 gate expand changed the very foundation of ZvP.
I agree with these. Although I don't know if showing you can play the game purely with infestors counts as being a trendsetter.
It can't be considered trendsetting unless you show that it's viable at the highest levels of play. I was doing the VR/Stalker timing against walled Terrans on ladder before MC, but that was against scrubs. MC did it on the big stage and perfected it, so he is the trendsetter. You can't call someone like Destiny or Spanishiwa a trendsetter since they are not proving the strategy's viability in high-level tournaments.
GoOdy: TvT mech style with blueflamehellion harass and hellion as tanking unit in that mix. Influencing korean TvT style indirectly, since NaDa got to see it in his game vs Strelok @ NASL.
Lzgamer invented the 5 rax reaper build, which was probably the most popular build in any matchup ever until it was nerfed.
Also Trickster with the 2 pylon ramp block vs zerg. Both these strategies were so powerful and popular that the game had to be changed around them.
Trickster was also the 1st toss I saw doing 2 base colossus all ins, which eventually grew into 2 base voidray/colossus, though It wouldn't surprise me if other players were doing this before him.
The thing is you cant give real credit to someone , because I am sure someone else has done it. I use a warp prism every time I play, but I dont get credit for it because white-ra does it on a grander platform like a tourney. I have a build for Protoss right now that is really OUT THERE like you wouldn't expect it ever... or you would think a newb is doing it because it is so far weird. My point is some pro player will do it in a month or so and u will all give him credit. But the fact is I might have done it first... or for other builds someone else did it first.
On July 10 2011 09:05 Oreo7 wrote: oGs Protoss: -DT expand -1gate Stargate expo -6gates, both match ups -4gate cancel nexus -Void ray allin or void ray contain
Genius cam up with most collosi timings, Nani perfected some, and MC did warpgate timings basically.
100% agree, I really love ogs/huk protoss To the op, there was a thing about MKP using only marine medivac marauder in tvt (gsl season 4), and the only person who was able to crack it was MVP who had a 97% win ratio in tvt at the time.
On July 10 2011 10:57 Drium wrote: Lzgamer invented the 5 rax reaper build, which was probably the most popular build in any matchup ever until it was nerfed.
On July 10 2011 11:01 Nagisama wrote: I thought it was Idra that set ling/muta/bling as standard for ZvT
Not sure if that's true; what I do know is that IdrA was pretty much the only player early in the beta who played macro zerg style (which is the golden standard for Zerg in general).
On July 10 2011 10:57 Drium wrote: Lzgamer invented the 5 rax reaper build, which was probably the most popular build in any matchup ever until it was nerfed.
I am fairly sure that was morrow
It wasn't. LZ showed it in a match with machine(iirc) that was broadcast at the king of the beta tournament.
On July 10 2011 10:57 Drium wrote: Lzgamer invented the 5 rax reaper build, which was probably the most popular build in any matchup ever until it was nerfed.
Also Trickster with the 2 pylon ramp block vs zerg. Both these strategies were so powerful and popular that the game had to be changed around them.
Trickster was also the 1st toss I saw doing 2 base colossus all ins, which eventually grew into 2 base voidray/colossus, though It wouldn't surprise me if other players were doing this before him.
I swear the spanishiwa build is never ever used by any pro zergs ever. Nestea, losira, July, idra, ret, sen, zenio... Have virtually never used it. The only people that use it are people that don't have good enough drone timing so they sit behind spines and queens and just make drones.
I think trend setters is more important for things like 2 rax, mech TvT, ghost timings, infestor instead of muta vs T.
On July 10 2011 10:57 Drium wrote: Lzgamer invented the 5 rax reaper build, which was probably the most popular build in any matchup ever until it was nerfed.
I am fairly sure that was morrow
Morrow showcased the build during IEM cologne against many zerg and he won against IdrA in the final using mostly this build.
But it's LzGamer who created the build. Lz is really a innovator for me, he always created awesome build. The 3 fact push against protoss come to mind and also some cute thor/ghost/raven play against zerg.
IdrA introduced tiny things with refinement in his play. (I think) He was one of the first zergs to instantly get the +1 muta attack and one of the firsts to delay metabolic speed for his lings. He doesn't exactly go out of his way to create zany builds, but little things in his refinement have a tendency to become pretty normal.
I'm pretty sure Genius didn't popularize zeal/archon at all. That build has been around since BW, but then it wasn't used in SC2 due to marauder kiting. As soon as the archon patch hit it became viable, and every protoss started using it, like that day. Maybe Genius was the first to use it televised, but nobody really popularized it in SC2, it just happened.
On July 10 2011 11:01 Nagisama wrote: I thought it was Idra that set ling/muta/bling as standard for ZvT
Not sure if that's true; what I do know is that IdrA was pretty much the only player early in the beta who played macro zerg style (which is the golden standard for Zerg in general).
People need to stop getting invented mixed up with trend setting. A trend setter is someone who won enough using a build to get people to start using it themselves. Idra is a PERFECT example for a trend setter. He made muta/ling/bane look unbeatable for awhile.
On July 10 2011 09:46 MechKing wrote: Spanishiwa for Zerg
I agree, you hear "spanishiwa style" way too often for him not to be on this list.
Yes. Spanishiwa has had a greater effect on the metagame than any other single Zerg player, by introducing and popularizing the idea of extremely delayed gas.
for zerg IdrA he popularized muta ling bling Dimaga for ZvZ Losira for ZvP with his roach ling drops and such Aquanda for introducing or popularizing the ling bling infestor into ultra style
On July 10 2011 09:46 MechKing wrote: Spanishiwa for Zerg
I agree, you hear "spanishiwa style" way too often for him not to be on this list.
Yes. Spanishiwa has had a greater effect on the metagame than any other single Zerg player, by introducing and popularizing the idea of extremely delayed gas.
I think NaDa might be a good person to look at for TvT trends, he always seems to be doing things first before others. His recent play in the MVP vs OGS GSTL match, all three matches he played he went mech-heavy builds, not just against Terran, however when against Terran his mech-play was definitely at its highest level. The Helion, Siege Tank, Viking, Banshee mix he uses is very powerful when controlled correctly, the game in the GSTL match shows him beating the standard marauder/marine/tank/medievac build which has been a staple in TvT for some time.
It is very hard for me to put Genius over MC. While Genius has done a lot in PvT, that is about where his influence ends. MC overall has changed every matchup. VR+Phoenix in PvZ, 6gate timings in PvT, making 4gate the only real strategy for a very long time in PvP.
About Spanishiwa, while his style is definitely a trendsetter, I don't think it has had the impact on the proscene like it has on the lower ladder levels. For that reason I wouldn't put him on my own list. Someone like July, who showed zerg can be aggressive at ALL stages of the game and against the highest level of competition, is someone I would put in that position instead.
On July 10 2011 09:46 MechKing wrote: Spanishiwa for Zerg
I agree, you hear "spanishiwa style" way too often for him not to be on this list.
Yes. Spanishiwa has had a greater effect on the metagame than any other single Zerg player, by introducing and popularizing the idea of extremely delayed gas.
On July 10 2011 11:41 setzer wrote: It is very hard for me to put Genius over MC. While Genius has done a lot in PvT, that is about where his influence ends. MC overall has changed every matchup. VR+Phoenix in PvZ, 6gate timings in PvT, making 4gate the only real strategy for a very long time in PvP.
About Spanishiwa, while his style is definitely a trendsetter, I don't think it has had the impact on the proscene like it has on the lower ladder levels. For that reason I wouldn't put him on my own list. Someone like July, who showed zerg can be aggressive at ALL stages of the game and against the highest level of competition, is someone I would put in that position instead.
Recently, I would agree with you, but MC started trendsetting months after Genius.
Genius has been setting protoss trends since like last May.
On July 10 2011 12:11 MrMotionPicture wrote: GuineaPig I believe was the guy that did that game on Shakuras with the VoidRays and Colossus build. That was all the rage for quite some time.
Right, GuineaPig changed PvZ for a wee while in the Game vs Junwi on Shakuras Plateu. FFE -> Double Star -> Voids (force hyrdra) -> Double Robo (Collossus). Really was a neat build imo.
I would rank oGsMC at 1, sure Genius started some collossus builds, but MC has pretty much made the standards for all protoss warpgate builds, pressure builds, timing attacks, and stargate transitions. His 3 zealot rush, his 6 gate pressure, 3 gate pressure, FFE into void + 3-4 phoenixes, his templar play, his DT expands.
TERRAN:
MKP has probably influenced the race the most, being a shining symbol of light in a dark age of TvZ. The introduction of the 2 racks and his marine centric builds showcased how CENTRAL and PIVOTAL the marine is in the Terran arsenal against zerg.
MVP would be behind him by introducing many good All-Ins, and how to properly safe expand as terran. Especially on a third base.
ZERG:
Spanishiwa has had a RIDICULOUS effect on the race with his introduction of delayed gas and queen/spinecrawler focused early game. This has become a standard in TvP.
IdrA showcased the power of ling/bling/muta and invented the Magic Box, making the mutalisk the DOMINATING unit in TvZ in an age where no one knew how to fight thors. This domination lasted until the recent findings of the power of infestors.
July showcased that Zergs are not just a passive macro race, he reintroduced and inspired the aggressive zerg style, proving that a zerg army can go toe to toe to most midgame compositions with proper micro and counter timings.
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular -Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. -Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone -Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!)
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
On July 10 2011 13:23 Bambipwnsu wrote: Why is there not oGsTOP?
Remember when everyone was 2 rax vs protoss. Then TOP came around and 4-0ed MC and the replays got released?
TOP wasn't really a new style; he simply played Terran vs Protoss perfectly in that series. His drops were everywhere, his expos were everywhere and he STILL managed to hold off ridiculous aggression when MC decided to turn it on. Still, e-five for remembering these replays! Those replays simply blew my mind when I watched them. I may have pulled an Artosis and cried. To this day, I still anxiously await TOP to just run in and dominate everyone.
On July 10 2011 12:06 AustinCM wrote: Idra Invented Mutaling Bling as the standard for ZvT
He definitely didn't invent it and he wasn't the first to use it in a major tournament, but people have always followed what IdrA did. He's a trend setter, even if he doesn't invent the trends.
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
I'd definitely have to say Destiny with mass infestor play. I don't know if it has been done a lot before him, but he is for sure the one who has introduced me to it.
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
Feel free to argue my points.
This thread is about people who set trends, not people who had playstyles that were permanently viable always forever. No build has stood the test of every shift in metagame forever
On July 10 2011 13:23 Bambipwnsu wrote: Why is there not oGsTOP?
Remember when everyone was 2 rax vs protoss. Then TOP came around and 4-0ed MC and the replays got released?
TOP wasn't really a new style; he simply played Terran vs Protoss perfectly in that series. His drops were everywhere, his expos were everywhere and he STILL managed to hold off ridiculous aggression when MC decided to turn it on. Still, e-five for remembering these replays! Those replays simply blew my mind when I watched them. I may have pulled an Artosis and cried. To this day, I still anxiously await TOP to just run in and dominate everyone.
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
Feel free to argue my points.
This thread is about people who set trends, not people who had playstyles that were permanently viable always forever. No build has stood the test of every shift in metagame forever
Tank/Marine has pretty much always been what most terran used
It's just over the months, the terrans who could micro well and macro well and drop well stood out, and the ones abusing faster bunkers or thor cliff drop died out after the patches
On July 10 2011 08:54 FantaFunL wrote: Fruitdealer was the first one going 14 hatchery almost every game in the first GSL?
What? No.
He just took ridiculous risks later in the game without being punished, ie: blind double expanding.
This is just a falsehood used by people like IdrA to prove that Fruitdealer's run wasn't pure genius. At a time when Zergs were still trying to work everything out, FruitDealer consistently knew when to drone and when to make units. He was literally the first Zerg to finally get a grasp of timings of Terran aggression; however, Fruitdealer lost his edge because he lost his work ethic, a sickness that has plagued him in the past.
No matter how bad Fruitdealer is right now, you have to accept the innovations he made for the ZvT matchup (and Zerg in general) all of which include:
-Using baneling carpet bombs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before they were popular ->Bane drops are not good at all in TvZ, even against mech now. Nobody uses them, not even nestea or july anymore.
-Showing people that Roach/baneling is really good (and then no one realized for the next few months T_T) -> Sorry, it's not. Losira is a zerg who uses roach/bane a lot and gets totally owned, July as well. Most of July's vs T wins are when he goes Ling/Bling/Muta, the standard composition that NesTea and Idra and Sen almost always use until infestor/brood.
-Using mutalisks only in small numbers to plug a timing where drops used to dominate. This, I feel, is especially important because most Zergs (even today) way overproduce Mutalisks. Having only 8/9 mutalisks out can buy time to transition into infestors. 8-9 muta DOESN'T stop drops. Even balls of 20 muta have trouble against a good terran who drops 2 places and pushes at once. Mass muta is still the undisputed standard of TvZ.
-Repelling hellion and/or reaper aggression with roaches, introducing the idea of the roach as a "power unit" to allow Zerg to drone. -> Many zergs like NesTea feel that spines and zergings along with simcity and queens are far superior to going roaches. July got absolutely DESTROYED by Puma by going roaches vs hellion and TvZ is his best matchup.
-Proving that with good creep spread, you can do anything -> This isn't something FD first used, a lot of the better zergs (FD/Ret/IdrA/Sen/etc) always have spread creep non-stop. The korean zergs who did not started to lose, a lot.
-Showing Zergs that Hive tech is super powerful when combined with fungal growth (even without the fungal buff!) -> Hive Tech worked for Fruit Dealer, because ultralisks were bugged and overpowered when he beat oGsTOP in the round of 8. top had like 14 better upgraded thors vs 12 or so 1-2 ultralisks. Go unit test if you like, he should have lost that game, but the thors all exploded from the enormous splash.
FruitDealer was easily the most innovative player that Zerg has ever had. We practically owe our entire playstyle to him.
Feel free to argue my points.
This thread is about people who set trends, not people who had playstyles that were permanently viable always forever. No build has stood the test of every shift in metagame forever
Tank/Marine has pretty much always been what most terran used
It's just over the months, the terrans who could micro well and macro well and drop well stood out, and the ones abusing faster bunkers or thor cliff drop died out after the patches
There was a long time after MKP vs Kyrix that terran didn't make siege tank. It wasn't until after that point that tank/marine started becoming standard. Then tank/marine got broken by MKP again with mass marines. Not to mention tank/marine has never been standard in tvp and very often wasn't standard in tvt. Tanks were scarce early on because people didn't know how to handle marauders. And don't forget 5 rax reaper
On July 10 2011 13:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: Didn't Nazgul invent the 4-gate? If so, then he's definitely up there.
I don't think so. I know that he was the guy who "countered" idra with blink stalkers, but not sure if it was him who invented the build.
Who would be considered the Protoss who brought 4-gate onto the scene?
I think I remember White-ra 4gating Tasteless in the HDH during the beta, but again, not sure if he was the one who brought it into the scene. But that's the earliest I can think of in terms of 4gates.
NaDa for sure, after he did a mech style gas before rax opening vs. Virus in the Super Tournament everyone started to do it. I know it was somewhat used before then, but NaDa really "set the trend".
I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
On July 10 2011 14:21 Syben wrote: I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
xiaot vs idra MC vs idra basically any game where idra loses to blink stalkers really.. XD everyone was doing it way before him, tbh.
On July 10 2011 14:21 Syben wrote: I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
xiaot vs idra MC vs idra basically any game where idra loses to blink stalkers really.. XD everyone was doing it way before him, tbh.
Clearly, IdrA popularized the blink stalker strategy.
Er, mods, I'm new to posting here so I guess I don't really know, but why was NEXPanDa perma banned? I mean, he only has two posts, and the thing he posted here was pretty on topic...
I have to add my support for Kyrix as a zerg trendsetter. His impact is stylistic, not a build, but it's permeated zerg play.
Ditto for MC, but I'm pretty sure he gets a lot of credit for 4gate and 6gate play too.
On July 10 2011 14:56 leperphilliac wrote: Er, mods, I'm new to posting here so I guess I don't really know, but why was NEXPanDa perma banned? I mean, he only has two posts, and the thing he posted here was pretty on topic...
On July 10 2011 14:45 AndreiDaGiant wrote: that build puma did against july was definitely new and i bet we will start seeing stuff like that
Isn't really new at all. sC used it vs DRG in the LG3D tourney finals on one of the newer GSL maps. Puma's used it before as well in the weekly cups. I've seen it toyed with by other players long before this as well.
Nestea invented a lot of Zerg timings and tricks. Not massive things but so much of the small details that are actually really key are Nestea's creation.
On July 10 2011 14:21 Syben wrote: I really think that HuK has really popularized the use of heavy heavy blink stalkers in PvZ. He used it quite effectively against Idra at HSC3 that I really have not seen any where else to the degree he used them. Just my opinion.
For Zerg I think it was Dimaga that really started with the heavy infestor hyper aggressiveness, he would be a nice candidate.
The heavy infestor use was popularised by Blizzard when they buffed fungal.
For Zerg, I'd say Fruitdealer, Losira, NesTea and DongRaeGu. First 3 don't actually need an introduction but DongRaeGu also popularized low tech style of ZvT. CoCa might also be worth mentioning for his ZvP style of ling-baneling-infestor-ultralisk. Spanishiwa also requires a special mention. Yesterday I heard Gisado shouting him out in one of CrazymovING's games.
The problem with this thread is that no one is checking their sources and just about everyone is completely wrong about when something first started it and when it first became common.
After today's NASL I might suggest throwing PuMa onto that Terran list...although I guess at least the double reactored fact had been used before.
I feel like the tip top level pros are always the innovators - that's what they use to set themselves apart. Players like MVP, Nestea, MC understand that people will both:
a) always be threatening their micro/macro skill superiority just because of human limits
b) targeting them because they are the best.
So how do you counter that? Come up with new builds!
I would DEFINITELY add CatZ to Z though. He invented 7 pool, neh? And masterminded 1 base infestor also? He's a crazy awesome dude
On July 10 2011 09:11 Mercury- wrote: PoltPrime - Popularized the Bio/Banshee/Raven/SCV push, took Protoss months to figure that one out and can still pack a punch. He also recently showed us how to punish greedy teching in TvT even though he used an old an old build.
Really/ I was under the impression painuser was actually among the first to do that, although admittedly my GSL viewership has been... inconsistent.
It's wasn't called the Polt Timing Attack for nothing.
Zerg: kyrix for high economy baneling play Terran: BitByBit for scv marine all ins which is still popular today Goody, known as the mech terran who goes mech no matter what Protoss: None but MC and genius, especially MC who displayed the all mighty 6gate. Whitera most credited for warp prism play, but MC has been doing warp prism play since day 1. He even used it on Rain in the finals.
For terran Jinro's always worth a mention. To paraphrase IdrA, Jinro was playing macro when everyone else was doing all-ins.
For zerg, Dimaga is amazing. His ultra-rush builds in ZvP are really fun, and he's generally had some wacky styles that have a lot of use in a BoX series.
Spanishiwa obviously does a lot of stuff that few others do. He's known for the ice fisher build, for mass queen + 'hero' units (ultras or broods that get healed), harassing for an entire game... and a lot more. He's really creative and has impeccable scouting so that he knows when his creative stuff can work.
There are more, but I think those two first come to mind as people I've tried to copy for creative stuff. Obviously I've also tried to copy NesTea and IdrA for solid play.
It's a good list so far, but I can't wait to see these kind of lists 5 years down the line. That's when you're going to see the BIG revolutions in gameplay.
On July 10 2011 09:13 SafeAsCheese wrote: zerg doesn't have any pioneers
thats because zerg is a race that lacks diverse deadly builds apart from cheese.I learned the early infestor burrowed mineral line on my own. thats a cheese. its totally ineffective and will kill you if you're blind countered or scouted.
Most of zerg's special plays are cheeses. The reason is that there's no self sufficient builds for zerg. its always about trying to keep up with T and P who play follow the leader. Zerg cant lead. its not economically viable for them to do so.
If zerg could, they would get even more QQ's than ever out of T or P because they can force terran and protoss responses that they can then quickly TS and punish.
On July 10 2011 09:13 SafeAsCheese wrote: zerg doesn't have any pioneers
thats because zerg is a race that lacks diverse deadly builds apart from cheese.I learned the early infestor burrowed mineral line on my own. thats a cheese. its totally ineffective and will kill you if you're blind countered or scouted.
Most of zerg's special plays are cheeses. The reason is that there's no self sufficient builds for zerg. its always about trying to keep up with T and P who play follow the leader. Zerg cant lead. its not economically viable for them to do so.
If zerg could, they would get even more QQ's than ever out of T or P because they can force terran and protoss responses that they can then quickly TS and punish.
On a side note, I really think that as people learn to use units and tech in ways not originally planned or desired by the game makers, the game SHOULD go through rebalancing on those basis.
Spanishiwa definitely for the Zerg. His early 4queens + no gas is rather unique for a zerg player, and that mass macro at the start gives him a huuge advantage mid-late game.
1) Tyler for 1base blink stalkers (or Nazgul, not 100% sure on this), and 5-6 gating in pvz, and most importantly double forge in pvt. Nowadays it's such a standard build, and back in march/april he was the only one doing it (see his showmatch vs Jinro). Plus of course his phoenix play. 2) White-ra for warp prisms, even though it's not particularly popular yet, and especially colossus/void ray.
On July 10 2011 17:12 Eknoid4 wrote: DRG popularized low tech ZvT?
low tech ZvT has existed forever.
The problem with this thread is that no one is checking their sources and just about everyone is completely wrong about when something first started it and when it first became common.
It's not about existing forever. It's about people being shown about the fact that it can win more than platinum ladder games. So, it is actually "popularized" by DongRaeGu.
On July 10 2011 19:52 bgx wrote: Idra : Fast expand (or 14 pool 15 hatch) Dimaga: Baneling bust Sen: 1 base Muta build i think Morrow : 3/5 rax reapers, koreans: 3 hatch muta vs protoss,
the topic is speaks about trendsetters not inventors thats the difference
I'm pretty sure that trendsetting of fast expand goes to Fruitdealer, who won a GSL with it.
On July 10 2011 17:57 koolaid1990 wrote: Terran: BitByBit for scv marine all ins which is still popular today
Actually, the scv marine all ins was popularized by MKP before BitByBit got his 15 minutes of frame. The phrase came up because he just did it every single game at a completely random timing.
I think July's aggressive style was pretty revolutionary but it hasn't really caught on a lot so maybe not really a trendsetter. I don't know who invented going ling/bling/muta against P but that was quite the revolution after all the roach/hydra/corrupter play before that.
OP i am really surprised that spanishwa is not in the list for zerg. i mean the ice fisher build is so strong if implemented right, you are so overwhelmingly strong in the meta game and players all the way down into the silver league (that i have seen/played against) are taking their two cents on the build. even though is a one off thing i believe that so many people have adopted the build that i would be worthy of a mention just because it weasled its way into the (at least my) list of standard builds for zerg.
On July 10 2011 23:40 Mazaire wrote: OP i am really surprised that spanishwa is not in the list for zerg. i mean the ice fisher build is so strong if implemented right, you are so overwhelmingly strong in the meta game and players all the way down into the silver league (that i have seen/played against) are taking their two cents on the build. even though is a one off thing i believe that so many people have adopted the build that i would be worthy of a mention just because it weasled its way into the (at least my) list of standard builds for zerg.
The thing is that it doesn't get used much in tournaments and really high level play. It is a valid built but it's just not used at the top level as far as I'm aware. It works great at the lower levels because it's really solid defensively while being good economical but at the high level it's not used (if I'm wrong feel free to correct me).
On July 10 2011 08:45 NEXPanDa wrote: Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
On July 10 2011 08:45 NEXPanDa wrote: Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
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On July 10 2011 08:45 NEXPanDa wrote: Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
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Lasting innovation doesn't usually come from one guy in his bedroom. Sure KiWiKaKi might figure out a cute build or two, but the changes to gameplay that get repeated throughout the world come from larger groups. oGs protosses and IM zergs have been innovation factories for their races so far.
On July 10 2011 23:54 userstupidname wrote: Idra made zerg in sc2 beta by popularizing 14 hatch and just greedy starts as well as hydra play.
Other are morrow with his ling style
Idra is definitely a trend setter, thanks to him a large amount of people (particularly zergs) have this ridiculous concept that the only good starcraft game is a macro game. Although hes changed his stance on this recently the attitude remains and will probably be here forever.
When I cheese as zerg at my crappy low diamond level people almost never expect it, I guess I have him to thank.
Morrow's PvZ? Not sure if he was the first, but he's probably the person who's popularised Zergling baneling drops against Toss, its a scary style in his hands.
Select - He was the first person I saw doing 11/11 or 11/12 raxes against zergs, at an MLG last year. Now its a very standard opening (QXC as well)
Tyler - I'd say he's probably more known, along with adelscott, for his gateway fast upgrades vs T.
Spanishiwa should definately be there, even if his style has gone out of favour
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
Yea, well it is actually one of very few ways to reliably say 'this PF dies now', and a lot of times a Zerg has to take that PF out to get an effective push on the Terran.
For Zerg I expect DongRaeGu to become one of the leading trendsetters for builds, while the build he uses of ling/muta/some infester/gspire is far from new however, the way he executes the build certainly is. He has shown that one of the oldest Zerg builds which for a long time was deemed inferior to muta/ling/bling is far from inferior, and when used properly is insanely powerful.
On July 10 2011 12:11 MrMotionPicture wrote: GuineaPig I believe was the guy that did that game on Shakuras with the VoidRays and Colossus build. That was all the rage for quite some time.
I think it was YongHwa who really went Voidray/Colossus the first time or atleast popularized it.
On July 10 2011 08:45 NEXPanDa wrote: Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
User was banned for this post.
Excuse me for interrupting, but why was this banned? It looks as if he was stating his opinion like everyone else and he got BANNED for doing it... Unless I'm missing something here.
On July 10 2011 08:45 NEXPanDa wrote: Good list so far, but I would put KiWiKaKi at 3, WhiteRa at 4, and YongHwa at 5. Naniwa is really mechanically good and farily standard, he is still probably top 10 though.
User was banned for this post.
Excuse me for interrupting, but why was this banned? It looks as if he was stating his opinion like everyone else and he got BANNED for doing it... Unless I'm missing something here.
Read the whole thread FFS. It's been explained multiple times. The guy was using multiple accounts.
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
No offense intended, but: You are not capable of designing builds that work at the very highest level. You are not. The people this thread is about are.
Besides: how is 3 macro hatches no expand even closely related to the Spanishiwa build?
I would give Destiny credit for great infestor use, but that's about it. I really think Zerg lacks some pioneers. Besides the obvious spanishiwa.
I think dimaga deserves to be on the list of zerg players. He has made alot of styles popular, especially in the period around late beta and after release.
He was one of the first to really refine what is today considered standard in ZvT with mutas and ling/bling. He also has recently showed off some neat rushes to hive-tech with 3 fast bases and stuff.
So here's my list for zerg as for the things popularized by players:
DIMAGA: baneling bust. Losira: roach-ling all in. Spanishiwa: gasless zerg Destiny: Infestor play Kirix: high economy baneling aggression Morrow: ling/bling vs protoss Nestea: solid play
I think July deserves some credit for popularizing two-base baneling all-ins in TvZ. A little while ago a lot of terrans were doing risky fast expands to set up a 2 base marine/tank push, as most zergs would see the FE and respond by taking a third or fourth themselves. July instead punished the terran for being greedy and went completely all-in any time the T tried to get late tanks.
Since then, almost all terrans either open hellions or get a fast factory after their FE, because July proved that even a thick 3 rax wall-off could be busted without tank support.
July made terrans terrified of zerg all-ins. Remember this?
I'd most defiantly put Losira and Nestea into the trendsetter category. Losira pretty much made the roach/ling all-in popular, Nestea started the corrupter/ling/bling tactic against toss
Spanishiwa should probably get special mention as well, with his super economic build
On July 11 2011 03:15 Hassybaby wrote: I'd most defiantly put Losira and Nestea into the trendsetter category. Losira pretty much made the roach/ling all-in popular, Nestea started the corrupter/ling/bling tactic against toss
Spanishiwa should probably get special mention as well, with his super economic build
I don't see progamers really do the ling/roach all-in anymore however. Even Losira prefer different all-ins.
At most it forced protoss to give up their most greedy builds and is a viable counter if they are stupid enough to expand unsafely.
I think Leenock is a great innovating zerg. I don't know if he's established anything incredibly game changing, but there are always aspects of his gameplay that show he is thinking about the matchup and not just copying other players.
- mutalisk armor - muta/ling with very few banelings and carapace on lings - upgrading ranged attack from the early on in the game and then doing huge switch to roaches at +3 against mech - sending 2nd overlord out to a key scouting location instead of the natural. Patrolled a drone to look for bunkers instead.
none of them have stuck as huge game changers, but you never know! I see promise in some of his ideas, and it's cool that his play is evolving.
I also think Leenock's 1-base infestor in ZvZ could be worth mentioning. Not that 1-base infestor is a good build, but it was kind of eye-opening.
In one of the early open seasons, the first BIG use of burrowed banelings that I remember was teriousfOu (against Loner?) where he had banelings burrowed everywhere, all over the map, all game, every game. His opponent basically could not use mules.
oh. and mondragon. It may have been only 2 games, but those were 2 important games.
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
That is precisely why the thread is called TRENDSETTING and not INVENTING. Low-skilled players cannot be trendsetters because their builds/styles do not necessarily translate over to the highest of skill levels. I'm sure someone got the idea to go sair/reaver before Nal_Ra but that doesn't mean jack if they aren't able to beat actual skilled players with it.
i'd say all yongwha did was making 1 pvp build, i wouldnt call it that important. as you're saying in the OP MKP revolutionized more micro than a build
i think for looking at Z you can go to losira (roach/ling allin etc) & nestea and the guy who started ling/bling against P
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
No offense intended, but: You are not capable of designing builds that work at the very highest level. You are not. The people this thread is about are.
Besides: how is 3 macro hatches no expand even closely related to the Spanishiwa build?
I would give Destiny credit for great infestor use, but that's about it. I really think Zerg lacks some pioneers. Besides the obvious spanishiwa.
Im not denying that they popularized these functions and made them work at high levels of play. Im not denying that double in base macro hatch is different, but as I said, I won with it so heavily and regularly that people called it ice fisher, yet there was a huge glaring weakness in it because sometimes I would get stomped. so I had to tweak it and ended up with something that looks very similar to the actual ice fisher build.
And I've been using baneling bust on PFs for a while, seeing as roaches take too long, and all other units have shit for health, whereas committing to mutas to take it down makes you weak to terrans number 1 spammed unit: marine. banelings obviate that problem AND are easier to hit the target than ultras without being taken down, provided u screen well or draw the army away. Ultralisks are great at breaking PFs, IF there's no army around.
On July 11 2011 03:23 Oboeman wrote: I think Leenock is a great innovating zerg. I don't know if he's established anything incredibly game changing, but there are always aspects of his gameplay that show he is thinking about the matchup and not just copying other players.
- mutalisk armor - muta/ling with very few banelings and carapace on lings - upgrading ranged attack from the early on in the game and then doing huge switch to roaches at +3 against mech - sending 2nd overlord out to a key scouting location instead of the natural. Patrolled a drone to look for bunkers instead.
none of them have stuck as huge game changers, but you never know! I see promise in some of his ideas, and it's cool that his play is evolving.
I also think Leenock's 1-base infestor in ZvZ could be worth mentioning. Not that 1-base infestor is a good build, but it was kind of eye-opening.
In one of the early open seasons, the first BIG use of burrowed banelings that I remember was teriousfOu (against Loner?) where he had banelings burrowed everywhere, all over the map, all game, every game. His opponent basically could not use mules.
oh. and mondragon. It may have been only 2 games, but those were 2 important games.
I have two questions: what happens if the terran army stays low tech and makes roach switch worthless at the end, thus wasting the time and resources spent grinding range up? Or is it handling the terran so well with most bio ball and air/hellion that they feel forced to switch to mech where the+3 roaches pop and take them down? has anyone tried going early evo to pump continual ups to make the swarm overpower at all timeframes of game? why couldnt the terran use mules? did he not get ravens, ever? did he not use turrets.
1 base infestor is pretty good because of the metagame. if you fast tech to it and hold off the obligatory sling/bling rush that comes 99.99% of every ZvZ game (and thus allows me to win by destroying it and then them), fast tech to infestor means they're still in low tech by the time they et their burrowed asses into the enemy mineral line.
OV to a scouting location that can also hide it = very good. like the buttes on the middle of shakuras. drone patrolling... ify. I prefer instead to pop 2 lings for pat AND kill power vs any bunkers going up. a drone not on mineral or gas is a pure waste imo. with 2 lings at least you're getting some other effects for wasting the droning time.
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
No offense intended, but: You are not capable of designing builds that work at the very highest level. You are not. The people this thread is about are.
Besides: how is 3 macro hatches no expand even closely related to the Spanishiwa build?
I would give Destiny credit for great infestor use, but that's about it. I really think Zerg lacks some pioneers. Besides the obvious spanishiwa.
Im not denying that they popularized these functions and made them work at high levels of play. Im not denying that double in base macro hatch is different, but as I said, I won with it so heavily and regularly that people called it ice fisher, yet there was a huge glaring weakness in it because sometimes I would get stomped. so I had to tweak it and ended up with something that looks very similar to the actual ice fisher build.
And I've been using baneling bust on PFs for a while, seeing as roaches take too long, and all other units have shit for health, whereas committing to mutas to take it down makes you weak to terrans number 1 spammed unit: marine. banelings obviate that problem AND are easier to hit the target than ultras without being taken down, provided u screen well or draw the army away. Ultralisks are great at breaking PFs, IF there's no army around.
On July 11 2011 03:23 Oboeman wrote: I think Leenock is a great innovating zerg. I don't know if he's established anything incredibly game changing, but there are always aspects of his gameplay that show he is thinking about the matchup and not just copying other players.
- mutalisk armor - muta/ling with very few banelings and carapace on lings - upgrading ranged attack from the early on in the game and then doing huge switch to roaches at +3 against mech - sending 2nd overlord out to a key scouting location instead of the natural. Patrolled a drone to look for bunkers instead.
none of them have stuck as huge game changers, but you never know! I see promise in some of his ideas, and it's cool that his play is evolving.
I also think Leenock's 1-base infestor in ZvZ could be worth mentioning. Not that 1-base infestor is a good build, but it was kind of eye-opening.
In one of the early open seasons, the first BIG use of burrowed banelings that I remember was teriousfOu (against Loner?) where he had banelings burrowed everywhere, all over the map, all game, every game. His opponent basically could not use mules.
oh. and mondragon. It may have been only 2 games, but those were 2 important games.
I have two questions: what happens if the terran army stays low tech and makes roach switch worthless at the end, thus wasting the time and resources spent grinding range up? Or is it handling the terran so well with most bio ball and air/hellion that they feel forced to switch to mech where the+3 roaches pop and take them down? has anyone tried going early evo to pump continual ups to make the swarm overpower at all timeframes of game? why couldnt the terran use mules? did he not get ravens, ever? did he not use turrets.
1 base infestor is pretty good because of the metagame. if you fast tech to it and hold off the obligatory sling/bling rush that comes 99.99% of every ZvZ game (and thus allows me to win by destroying it and then them), fast tech to infestor means they're still in low tech by the time they et their burrowed asses into the enemy mineral line.
OV to a scouting location that can also hide it = very good. like the buttes on the middle of shakuras. drone patrolling... ify. I prefer instead to pop 2 lings for pat AND kill power vs any bunkers going up. a drone not on mineral or gas is a pure waste imo. with 2 lings at least you're getting some other effects for wasting the droning time.
Congrats, you thought of a build that is similar to a build some pro used.
Just thought if I gave you recognition you'd feel satisfied.
For me as a Zerg-player, I've been looking at IdrA to learn from his macro-oriented and safe style basically since the beginnings of SC2.
Also a very intelligent player that comes up with new Strategies, timing-attacks etc. is of course NesTea and his protégé Losira.
Another player that has a very distinct, highly aggressive playstyle is July. The way he abuses pumping drones VS attacking-Units is very impressive and offers a new way to play Zerg.
DRG has opened with Spanishiwa style and has been quoted as using "Spanishiwa" on Korean sites in interviews.. I think it's safe to establish Spanishiwa as a trendsetter. You can trendset with replays and VODs and tournaments. Or rarely you can trendset with guides that get a billion views. Spanishiwa obviously falls into the latter.
For me, Terran trendsetter would be definitely MKP. Marine openings basically re-established the game.
Fruitdealer IS a trendsetter despite what alot of you guys are thinking. Lets not forget what kind of a hard time Zerg had dealing with drops in Season 1. He was one of the willing first to use Spinecrawlers at expos to help with marine drops, and to use Infestors to stop drop play. In fact, he'd be one of hte first to even get to 3 or 4 base successfully in televised games. Before that it'd just be "Spine's are a waste of money" with a quick dismissive gesture. And let's not forget, FD was the first in SC2 at least, to throw down all types of tech buildings at once in a form of drone timing. Something basic, in SC1, that wasn't exactly apparent in the first days of SC2. Small things that were unthinkable, that Gold players do for granted nowadays.
MC for me would be the Protoss trendsetter. Mass sentries, enough said. The other would be Squirtle? With Collosus Voidray macro play. Even tho that isn't exactly as influential as MC.
The problem with trendsetting is that there is always someone who did this and that before that and this guy. You just can't tell for sure. The problem exists everywhere and every attempt to clearly say "THIS guy started THAT" fails, especially on the internet.
And about the names: Who cares if you say "spanishiwa build" when someone takes no gas etc? Who the hell cares? It's so much easier to say "spanishiwa build" than "he takes no gas builds a lot of drones and then builds hatches and then all 4 gases at once" It's not like people say "spanishiwa is so awesome omfg everyone s* his d* because he is THAT awesome and everyone else s*" No. It's just a name. Spanishiwa is still a bad/mediocre player compared to the koreans, but we still call it "spanishiwa build" when DRG plays this style.
I neither get the OP nor do I get why people are hating. It's just random nonsense imho.
On July 11 2011 03:15 Hassybaby wrote: I'd most defiantly put Losira and Nestea into the trendsetter category. Losira pretty much made the roach/ling all-in popular, Nestea started the corrupter/ling/bling tactic against toss
Spanishiwa should probably get special mention as well, with his super economic build
I don't see progamers really do the ling/roach all-in anymore however. Even Losira prefer different all-ins.
At most it forced protoss to give up their most greedy builds and is a viable counter if they are stupid enough to expand unsafely.
I agree, but Losira's mentality of ZvP really did change the way the top Zerg though of the match-up. Beforehand, people just didn't punish protoss, which allowed them to get super greedy. Losira really started the entire "wait, you're really trying to get that much economy so early, and be weak unit-wise? Ok then, guess I'll just kill you now" and he did. Even July didn't go for full aggression until the toss expansion was pretty much running full capacity. Losira changed that a lot. Nowadays, you see Zerg punishing the Toss whenever they try to be too spread out, or become too greedy, and I see that as trendsetting
On July 11 2011 22:01 KeksX wrote: The problem with trendsetting is that there is always someone who did this and that before that and this guy. You just can't tell for sure. The problem exists everywhere and every attempt to clearly say "THIS guy started THAT" fails, especially on the internet.
And about the names: Who cares if you say "spanishiwa build" when someone takes no gas etc? Who the hell cares? It's so much easier to say "spanishiwa build" than "he takes no gas builds a lot of drones and then builds hatches and then all 4 gases at once" It's not like people say "spanishiwa is so awesome omfg everyone s* his d* because he is THAT awesome and everyone else s*" No. It's just a name. Spanishiwa is still a bad/mediocre player compared to the koreans, but we still call it "spanishiwa build" when DRG plays this style.
I neither get the OP nor do I get why people are hating. It's just random nonsense imho.
But the issue here is even the pros (DRG) defer and give credit to Spanishiwa.
Kyrix high-eco baneling busts. Pretty much any time someone does a baneling bust that isn't an all end is referred to as being "Kyrix-style".
Spanishiwa gasless expand. While the pros haven't, for the most part, lifted the build entirely, he has absolutely influenced the play of a lot of top-notch pros who are delaying their gas more and more. And if you want to talk about influencing the ladder, oh my god is he a trendsetter.
Destiny's double-evo zergling/infestor play. Again, if you talk about the ladder, this is obvious, as it's everywhere thanks to him - less so in the pro scene. But his recent wins against Bomber in the GeForce Pro/Am have shown it's at least somehwat viable at the highest level of play. You can even include his infestor-harass style - Artosis referenced his "4festor Hit Squad" in the NASL this weekend.
Protoss:
Adelscott: I don't know if he pioneered the gateway-centric double-forge, but as far as I can tell he popularized it. From Liquipedia: Nicknamed "The Gateway Protoss" for his playstyle relying heavily on Gateway units over Robo or Stargate tech.
Huk: Mothership rush. Don't worry, taht's just halo.
Terran:
Thorzain: His upgrade-heavy double engibay vs Protoss has even earned him nods from the Koreans.
TLO: Why build six rax when you can build SEVEN? And I'm not sure if he pioneered it, but he sure used the ghost-first build a whole hell of a lot. (And... just checked the Liqiupedia page for it, it credits qxc with creating/popularizing it, so there you go I guess.)
On July 11 2011 00:22 Vertig0 wrote: Dimaga popularized using banelings to kill planetary fortresses: it sounded ridiculous at the time, but now it's seen quite often.
wrong. I learned this on my own after trial and error. I think its an error to ascribe what is a natural collective unconscious gameplay progression to any individual. I've never heard of his baneling bust vs PF, but in the last three weeks vs PF terran I really needed an alternative to ultralisk/broodling, which is the only other two viable options to a fully turtled terran. baneling bust came to my mind, and when I tried it, and was surprised that it worked, I didnt even care that I was trading unequally on resources and costing myself more than him, because I stopped him from mining which puts my macro game ahead, and thus more than compensates for spending a little extra to down a resource point of the enemy in just 2 seconds flat.
Just like spanishiwa. I learned his so called "ice fisher" build by throwing myself straight into ladder zerg from brood war. I did 3 macro hatches no expand to get myself into high gold, and people would say "lol you used ice fisher/spanshiwa build"? and I have to say, wtf are you talking about?
many of these builds, it is true, might have been given widespread recognition as a particular build, but Im quite sure a lot of unknowns tried these builds before. Thats usually where great people get their builds anyway, taking it from what they see other people do and synthesizing it into a winning combo down the road.
yes, I refined my low gas macro hatch build with trial and error, and came up with nearly the same build spanishiwa uses. so I highly doubt he pioneered it. I was taking brood war and trying to modify it with queen use for macro ladder, all without having ever seen any streams or looked up any builds.
my point is these people gave it a face, they didnt create them out of some genius.
No offense intended, but: You are not capable of designing builds that work at the very highest level. You are not. The people this thread is about are.
Besides: how is 3 macro hatches no expand even closely related to the Spanishiwa build?
I would give Destiny credit for great infestor use, but that's about it. I really think Zerg lacks some pioneers. Besides the obvious spanishiwa.
Im not denying that they popularized these functions and made them work at high levels of play. Im not denying that double in base macro hatch is different, but as I said, I won with it so heavily and regularly that people called it ice fisher, yet there was a huge glaring weakness in it because sometimes I would get stomped. so I had to tweak it and ended up with something that looks very similar to the actual ice fisher build.
And I've been using baneling bust on PFs for a while, seeing as roaches take too long, and all other units have shit for health, whereas committing to mutas to take it down makes you weak to terrans number 1 spammed unit: marine. banelings obviate that problem AND are easier to hit the target than ultras without being taken down, provided u screen well or draw the army away. Ultralisks are great at breaking PFs, IF there's no army around.
On July 11 2011 03:23 Oboeman wrote: I think Leenock is a great innovating zerg. I don't know if he's established anything incredibly game changing, but there are always aspects of his gameplay that show he is thinking about the matchup and not just copying other players.
- mutalisk armor - muta/ling with very few banelings and carapace on lings - upgrading ranged attack from the early on in the game and then doing huge switch to roaches at +3 against mech - sending 2nd overlord out to a key scouting location instead of the natural. Patrolled a drone to look for bunkers instead.
none of them have stuck as huge game changers, but you never know! I see promise in some of his ideas, and it's cool that his play is evolving.
I also think Leenock's 1-base infestor in ZvZ could be worth mentioning. Not that 1-base infestor is a good build, but it was kind of eye-opening.
In one of the early open seasons, the first BIG use of burrowed banelings that I remember was teriousfOu (against Loner?) where he had banelings burrowed everywhere, all over the map, all game, every game. His opponent basically could not use mules.
oh. and mondragon. It may have been only 2 games, but those were 2 important games.
I have two questions: what happens if the terran army stays low tech and makes roach switch worthless at the end, thus wasting the time and resources spent grinding range up? Or is it handling the terran so well with most bio ball and air/hellion that they feel forced to switch to mech where the+3 roaches pop and take them down? has anyone tried going early evo to pump continual ups to make the swarm overpower at all timeframes of game? why couldnt the terran use mules? did he not get ravens, ever? did he not use turrets.
1 base infestor is pretty good because of the metagame. if you fast tech to it and hold off the obligatory sling/bling rush that comes 99.99% of every ZvZ game (and thus allows me to win by destroying it and then them), fast tech to infestor means they're still in low tech by the time they et their burrowed asses into the enemy mineral line.
OV to a scouting location that can also hide it = very good. like the buttes on the middle of shakuras. drone patrolling... ify. I prefer instead to pop 2 lings for pat AND kill power vs any bunkers going up. a drone not on mineral or gas is a pure waste imo. with 2 lings at least you're getting some other effects for wasting the droning time.
Congrats, you thought of a build that is similar to a build some pro used.
Just thought if I gave you recognition you'd feel satisfied.
not the point whatsoever. The point is that a lot of decent players toil in obscurity and then some pros take their builds and call it their own. its not unusual in any scene that involves competition, for this to happen. Im simply pointing out that most of these builds wouldn't probably exist without pros having seen it tried against them at some other point (or via stream), so we cant give all the credit to them.
EPT![[image loading]](http://oi52.tinypic.com/w0hxqv.jpg)
