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You know whats really embarrassing is when you have fellow community giants providing negative spectator feedback.
On July 09 2011 06:11 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 06:04 eYeball wrote:Jinro, are you guys from the oGs house watching NASL? Any funny reactions from the players?  Its too late =,=~ I think Vines was trying to watch it (he always watches foreign events =O!) but gave up when the delays happened.
On July 09 2011 06:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 05:59 Bellygareth wrote:On July 09 2011 05:59 DoomsVille wrote:
Is it seriously xel'naga into crossfire for every MU?
Are you kidding me.... Yeah that means no zerg in round of 8! Crossfire is actually a good zerg map, HOWEVER, if this is true its the worst decision Ive ever heard of, from a spectators point of view.
On July 09 2011 06:47 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ok I give up, Iwanted to watch this but its 7 am --
On July 10 2011 04:38 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
...
Alright, so Im giving up on this whole 'watching' thing once again. Intros again? REALLY?
TLO's comment
DjWheat chimes in.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/ikre2/just_got_back_from_nasl/c24k8a6
To not misrepresent their sentiments, I'll say with 99.99% certainty all of the above comes from people who very badly want this event to succeed.
It's disappointing because the games are excellent, especially the games we saw today (Day 2). However, we can't simply brush aside the multitude of blunders that are clearly hampering spectator interest and attention. NASL clearly is setting out to do something great here, but they're also clearly not executing it well.
The long breaks in between matches is reminiscent of Starcraft 2 at Blizzcon 2010. I'm sure we all remember what a trainwreck it was to watch one BO3 every 1 and a half to 2 hours. The response on the following SotG was unanimously negative towards that aspect. Fast forward until now, and we're being told it is to give the spectators at the venue chances to go to the bathroom, stretch, eat, etc.
Unfortunately that just doesn't work for the stream viewers. I won't make any unsubstantiated claims as to it possibly being used to milk revenue. However, certainly no other major tournament goes live with the planned intention of having hours of downtime between matches, with no content to fill the space with. I'm reluctant to count Lindsey as a part of such content, as those interviews had an attitude of "We totally didn't plan to have anything to fill these monstrous gaps, uhh lets throw this girl out there we hired and have her ask random people questions"
I'll throw my hat in with the rest of the arguments here regarding the need to hire professionals. I can't imagine what would've happened on Day 1 or Day 2 for that matter if TheGunrun wasn't there to graciously volunteer his expertise. The fact that he even had to when he went there as a spectator is a borderline disaster in itself.
I think the problem people are having is not that issues exist, but instead its the fact that the issues are seemingly so rudimentary in nature.
We're not talking about the stream dying due to a lightning storm, we're talking about casters not being heard because the audio isn't set up correctly. We've got a main camera feed on the caster desk that looks like its coming from a blurry home video at times. Most of the time the camera seems to be oddly zoomed out instead of focused in on the casters. We've got sponsorship promo ads being run at deafening volumes, then being stopped, then rerun once the volume gets readjusted. Every time a postgame interview is conducted, we miss what the hostess is saying at the beginning because her mic hasn't been turned on yet.
Then we've got Incontrol having an awkward moment with the audience as they fail to respond to his joke "I'm glad you guys didn't laugh. then afterwards the crowd cheers as a probe slips past a bunker while a stalker draws fire (an excellent maneuver), and he quips
"Sure cheer at a bunker shooting a stalker" sarcastically. Not the brightest moment in casting history to assume the audience isn't responding properly. Also not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but it certainly doesn't help.
Then to top it off on an event that was already 2 hours late, we have these lengthy highlight reels that are being replayed again and again with epic chorus music being looped in the background at the start of every match. The epic nature of the music soon gets old after the first 4 minutes.
I enjoy the storyline being presented, as it was one of the major features the NASL has been trying to bring to the table. But when we've seen many of these videos repeated twice over, people simply lose interest. Just shorten the videos to 2-3 minutes tops.
However there was clear improvement on Day 2, hopefully the improvement process will continue. Hopefully they're taking all of this to heart, and I'm sure we'll hear some responses during some sort of postmortem analysis when this is all over.
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United States5217 Posts
On July 10 2011 13:49 Voreau wrote:
I had 0 lag throughout the entire stream today. Don't think NASL is to blame for your lag. Great improvement overall today, very enjoyable event. Tons of improvements to be made but well worth the watch despite them. Some amazing games today! Looking forward to tomorrow and Season 2! Thanks NASL!
The Grand Finals have been lag free for me. It was the season that was unbearable to watch for many people, including me, and I think that is what others are referring to.
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Was busy on Day 2, but from Day 1
I think a different map selection method should be used. In the regular season it was fine because it kinda of balanced it out over 9 series, but i got tired of hearing whether or not crossfire was zerg favored or not. If this is even in the discussion and it is required of all players then it gives people the chance to question the legitimacy of the competition.
So i think a veto system would be better (not loser picks)
or hell give the higher seed first pick and then loser picks.
Oh and one BO3 series for a live event seems awkward.
Something about the delays. especially with different casting partners i see no reason the competition cant be back to back with no breaks.
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I have watched the entire event so much and I think the production value has been pretty darn good for a first Nasl. Yes of course the map selection process wasn't too good and the format but apart from that I think people should stop complaining and enjoy a great event.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
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On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote:
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG?
Production Errors - not nearly enough
Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out.
Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
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I'm at the NASL right now, and the downtime isn't that long. There's prep time between games and they want the audience to be able to meet and talk with the players and staff. I've been to Blizzcon every year since 2007, PAX, SEMA, and other big conventions. For their first convention they are doing good. I'm not sure how the event is watching online, but in person it's amazing.
Here are a few photos I took with some players and staff.
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On July 10 2011 15:05 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote:
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
1) What does MLG have to do with this? If NASL's production stinks, then it stinks. It has nothing to do with MLG Dallas.
2) The vast majority of people disagree with you on single elimination. Fact is, the more games played/chances given, the better chance of the BEST player actually winning the tournament. And it just makes sense if you're going to fly people from all over the world over.
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The thing about good tv is that it goes un noticed they really should have aimed lower with the venue they chose they really needed a gomtv style studio with proper cameras,crew,sound and lighting. This is all very expensive they really could have had alot better show if they just had a small audience and hired cameras/lighting/crew of pros for the studio that they already have then spent some money to get glass booths for the players. But instead we got a really awkward drawn out event that got way over hyped and became a big joke
my advice: Pay for professional tv producers to run the event and keep the cost as low as possible by using the existing studio, they may not make as much money but they'll keep people watching
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 10 2011 15:05 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote:
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it
also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
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On July 10 2011 15:27 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 15:05 NoobSkills wrote:On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote:
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's. Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
I think it's more along the lines that NASL, like MLG, should get a second chance. They certainly improved their production quality today, at least?
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Thought I'd post this where someone from NASL might read it.
I like that you guys follow your schedule. That's great. But I missed 2 games of MC vs Sen because I thought it began at 8:00pm.
It's good that you follow the schedule exactly in some ways. Players know exactly when they will be needed to play so they can do stuff with that in mind. People at the event can do other things in the mean time too. Let's people plan around it. But IMO there needs to be some flexibility.
For example Semifinals Match 1 and 2 should be lumped between 6-10pm. So if Match 1 finishes quickly you can begin Match 2 right away without the rigidness of having to start exactly at 8:00 even if Match 1 finishes 1 hour early. This schedule of 1 match then wait a variable amount then 1 match is a little annoying. 2-3 matches then a "break" would be better.
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On July 10 2011 15:36 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 15:27 Maliris wrote:On July 10 2011 15:05 NoobSkills wrote:On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote:
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's. Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit? I think it's more along the lines that NASL, like MLG, should get a second chance. They certainly improved their production quality today, at least?
Here is the flawed logic people seem to be using when making this argument. MLG had issues, MLG fixed those issues. NASL has issues, NASL will fix those issues.
I say flawed for a couple of reasons. First of all, NASL has shown an inability to fix their issues in a timely manner. What was it, week six or seven until we had decent audio? Their VOD system is still terrible.
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
So why was MLG able to dig themselves out of the holes of their own creation and not NASL? Simply put, MLG is run by business people and the NASL is run by a handful of passionate, but not highly skilled (at least in the relevant fields) people. I am not saying this to be an asshole or to blindly attack them as organization. They've provided us with some awesome games over the last couple of days. Sadly though, I doubt they will exist past their second season. Yet another failed American esports league.
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I really hate the whole concept of "Trying to Develop Storylines" that the NASL has been using as one of their selling points ever since creation. Really good story lines MAKE THEMSELVES. Don't try to force these, that just makes them hollow. IdrA and MC, Huk's climb to fame again, MKP's endless silvers, bitbybit's loltastic playstyle, Slayers taking GSTL twice, MMA rising as boxer's son, Inca becoming the PVP expert, foreigners vs Koreans and the constant struggle for foreigners to maintain any presence, AND SO MUCH MORE. THESE ARE BIRTHED THROUGH AMAZING GAMES / EVENTS / MOMENTS.
Stop trying to stories with these cheesy videos (which highlight terrible moments btw). Just give the players a good set up, give the viewers a clean show, and let them create themselves.
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Do you guys remember when NASL was first announced and everyone was trying to figure out who the sponsor is? Anyone ever get in on that or was this funded by some really rich Starcraft fan?
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
Putting such a massive amount of money into prizemoney is probably the worst idea NASL have had. Viewers don't actually give a shit about prizemoney, MLG and dreamhack are substantially less and yet people play just as well there as in NASL... People are gonna participate anyway if it is one of the most prestigious events so may as well focus on great production, a proper website and running a good stream, even operating at a loss for the first season if need be just to establish themselves.
Pretty fail business sense
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I guess I wasn't the only 1 there with a crappy grainy digital camera.
I should've took my old film based camera. >.<
Cool story though, bro. I guess it was a lucky run-in at ye olde In 'n' Out.
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I often play other video games with a starcraft 2 streaming in the background so I can listen to the commentary and get a glimpse of whats going on in the game; yesterday I sat for hours in front of the pc and I remember it was mostly starcraft soundtrack. Probably a couple of games in between? select vs mc and some other game with puma... I really didnt bother and went to bed.
Just saying that I dont think its funny for anyone (even for the public in the event building) to wait 4 hours between in each match.
I also don't understand the reason for that since my perception as a viewer is that there is nothing between the games
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On July 10 2011 15:59 Maliris wrote:
Putting such a massive amount of money into prizemoney is probably the worst idea NASL have had. Viewers don't actually give a shit about prizemoney, MLG and dreamhack are substantially less and yet people play just as well there as in NASL... People are gonna participate anyway if it is one of the most prestigious events so may as well focus on great production, a proper website and running a good stream, even operating at a loss for the first season if need be just to establish themselves.
Pretty fail business sense
I disagree with your last statement there. Everything about what they've done screams that they don't really have a goal of long-term stability. They seem to just be trying to cash in on the popularity of SC2/E-sports right now rather than aiming to build an established event. To put it a little less cynically, if the financial backers behind NASL don't really believe that SC2/E-sports has long term sustainability, then not investing into infrastructure or production quality is certainly the way to go (gotta keep the books black at all times). Unfortunately, this is not the sort of event that the e-sports community needs/wants.
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EPT
