Please post all your comments, constructive criticisms, and suggestions about the NASL here. Don't just whine and complain, give your suggestions for improvement. Keep the LR threads for live reporting.
Congratulations on the first day NASL. Good job considering this is your first time to go live. It's ok to start a bit scratchy, just finish with a bang! Thanks for this awesome event!
Please start reasonably on time. We understand inevitable delays, but 2 hours is pushing it.
(related to above) This means that you have to prepare ahead of time. Do all your check multiple times and within a good amount of time before the start of event and not just 5 minutes before the event. That way, in case there are any glitches or something needs to be repaired, you have enough time to adjust without compromising the schedule.
In case of inevitable delays, please give a courtesy information to the fans and audience. Be honest, it's cool.We understand you are doing all you can and we can wait 2 hours if that's what it takes. Just don't leave us hanging.
Please have some fill videos during downtimes or when there are technical repairs going on (read: Boxer vs MC). It could be a behind the scenes of the players and organizer. I'm sure people would rather see that than the casters awkwardly trying to keep the audience in with weird ad lib stories, dull jokes, and what not.
Better organization with the transitions (i.e. have players check the booth while the hype video is being played and just make them enter again for their introductions).
Better and shorter hype intro videos for players.
Short message from the players just before the game starts just for hype.
Please prepare the interviews better. Ready the questions. Ready the mic. Ready the translator.
While ladies doing the interviews is fine, would it be better if the winners (along with the translators) were interviewed by the casters after the game, on the desk preferably. The casters for sure would know more about the game and make for a better conversation with the players.
Can we have Tastosis on the big games (Boxer!)? Please.
Can the booths be more aesthetic? They look like a... cabinet.
As almost everyone is saying, maybe better Ro16 format next season
Technical
Day9 please don't scream with the mic very close to your mouth! It hurts our ears. Learn how far the mic should be away to properly broadcast.
Put the main camera on tripod and stop messing with it. It has to be stable and centered.
Balance the audio levels of casters. Sometimes 1 caster is too loud while the other is barely audible
Balance game audio as well. Turn down music a bit so we could hear the casters
Better booth lighting. Unless the players prefer it that way.
Game Related
Get an obs who more or less knows the game. The obs early in day 1 was nowhere near where the action is. Sometimes it also jumps from screen to screen too fast. It seems ok later in the event though.
Please show healthbars before and after engagements
(or) Click on buildings and army especially before and after the engagement. We need to see it's health and upgrade status.
For future reference, what format should they use for Ro16? (Ro8 onward would ideally be Ro5 and finals would be Ro7)
Bo3 Single Elimination As it is now. You fly all the way from Europe and get eliminated after 10 minutes.
Bo5 Single Elimination Similar to how it is presently, only it takes longer to get eliminated.
Bo3/Bo5 Double Elimination The Bo3 or Bo5 is dependent on logistics here. What is important is a player gets a chance to even out in the tournament at Ro16.
4 Groups (4 each ranked by seed) Bo3 round robin Each player has at least 3 matches in the Ro16. Sudden death tiebreaker. Top 2 advance to Ro8.
Poll: For future reference, what format should they use for Ro16?
4 Groups (4 each ranked by seed) Bo3 round robin (362)
55%
Bo3/Bo5 Double Elimination (212)
32%
Bo5 Single Elimination (56)
9%
Bo3 Single Elimination (27)
4%
657 total votes
Your vote: For future reference, what format should they use for Ro16?
(Vote): Bo3 Single Elimination (Vote): Bo5 Single Elimination (Vote): Bo3/Bo5 Double Elimination (Vote): 4 Groups (4 each ranked by seed) Bo3 round robin
Please post all your comments, constructive criticisms, and suggestions about the NASL here. Don't just whine and complain, give your suggestions for improvement. Keep the LR threads for live reporting.
Congratulations on the first day NASL. Good job considering this is your first time to go live. It's ok to start a bit scratchy, just finish with a bang! Thanks for this awesome event!
Areas that need improvement:
General/Organizational
Please start reasonably on time. We understand inevitable delays, but 2 hours is pushing it.
(related to above) This means that you have to prepare ahead of time. Do all your check multiple times and within a good amount of time before the start of event and not just 5 minutes before the event. That way, in case there are any glitches or something needs to be repaired, you have enough time to adjust without compromising the schedule.
In case of inevitable delays, please give a courtesy information to the fans and audience. Be honest, it's cool.We understand you are doing all you can and we can wait 2 hours if that's what it takes. Just don't leave us hanging.
Please have some fill videos during downtimes or when there are technical repairs going on (read: Boxer vs MC). It could be a behind the scenes of the players and organizer. I'm sure people would rather see that than the casters awkwardly trying to keep the audience in with weird off stories.
Technical
Day9 please don't scream with the mic very close to your mouth! It hurts our ears. Learn how far the mic should be away to properly broadcast.
Put the main camera on tripod and stop messing with it. It has to be stable and centered.
Balance the audio levels of casters. Sometimes 1 caster is too loud while the other is barely audible
Balance game audio as well. Turn down music a bit so we could hear the casters
Game Related
Get an obs who more or less knows the game. The obs early in day 1 was nowhere near where the action is. Sometimes it also jumps from screen to screen too fast. It seems ok later in the event though.
Please show healthbars before and after engagements
(or) Click on buildings and army especially before and after the engagement. We need to see it's health and upgrade status.
Misc
Please prepare the interviews better. Ready the questions. Ready the mic. Ready the translator.
Can we have Tastosis on the big games? Please.
Can the booths be more aesthetic? They look like a... cabinet.
This is looking less and less like an NASL discussion thread but more of a complain about NASL thread... Also asking for tastosis to cast the entire event is really dumb, they were invited to guest cast. I don't care if you don't like Inc/gretorp but man they have casted so many games and they better be able to cast at the finals.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
For the record: I enjoyed InControl + Gretorp casting MC v Boxer. I think if you get past the fanaticism held for Tastosis, you'll find this complaint is one of personal prerogative.
Besides, define a "big game". Anything with MC? Anything with any Korean perhaps? All complaints I saw asking for Tastosis on "big games" basically sounded like "every game", when indeed there was no issue with other casters.
Otherwise: rest of the points seem fine. Major points that stick out for me were sound (which was amateur) and scheduling (long breaks, single elimination Ro16 over 3 full days, etc).
For the record: I enjoyed InControl + Gretorp casting MC v Boxer. I think if you get past the fanaticism held for Tastosis, you'll find this complaint is one of personal prerogative.
Besides, define a "big game". Anything with MC? Anything with any Korean perhaps? All complaints I saw asking for Tastosis on "big games" basically sounded like "every game", when indeed there was no issue with other casters.
Otherwise: rest of the points seem fine. Major points that stick out for me were sound (which was amateur) and scheduling (long breaks, single elimination Ro16 over 3 full days, etc).
Really? I guess you've never heard of Boxer. That's instantly the biggest game in any tournament.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Agreed. Just look at Ret. He's the number 1 seed, forced to play against open bracket winner, travels all the way to the US to play, gets beaten in 10 minutes, and thats the end of his tourny run...
I think it would of been nice to have different maps, rather than just the same 3 maps over and over again. It got kind of stale towards the end. It would of been nice if the players also got some sort of veto.
If you don't need 4000 sound channels, don't buy audio equipment that has 4000 sound channels, and more importantly, 4000 sound channel button groups. It'll make the 11 (significantly less than my exaggerated 4000) things you're actually doing much easier to maintain.
As an audio production student, I don't understand how the audio had so many problems. Anyone with atleast a single year of experience with audio under his/her belt could have made it would better.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
While we are at this. Maps should be able to be eliminated, and have a losers pick afterwards. Whats the point of playing all the games on the same map. Also why is Ro8 only Bo3?
The format is fine, but I do think a BO5 would be better, you guys had a lot of downtime between matches anyways.
Other than that my main complaints are:
-The audio, fix it please. -The observer, I don't know what happened, you guys had5 competent casters at least one of them could have served as an observer. Early in the day the observing was bad. - Keep the camera steady please -The interviews were okish, just try to be more prepared and check your mics.
Sorry if I sound nitpicky but you guys were improving a lot through the season and this felt like a huge step back. It was not bad, but it could have been way better than it was today.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
this...it just confuses me why a round of 16 is a bo3 when the cash pool is $100k. also it makes it even worse because the players had to play in the league for 9 weeks and some of them had to travel hundreds of miles like you said.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Please!! This game is too 'random', and I say that loosely, to travel as far as many did to get only 1 Bo3.
Sound: -Sometimes you don`t hear the players or interviewers at all -The casters audio varied a lot too -Why could I hear some random dude talking in the background at times?
General: -the obsing needs serious work. A lot of times the action is missed even when it is obvious some big battle is about to happen -the camera of the obsing is also shaky at times for some reason -more focus on the production tab -maybe show videos when they are waiting to resolve technical difficulties? The part with gretorp looking all confused and looking everywhere before the Boxer match was akward
Also for next season the suggestion below is valid:
On July 09 2011 15:20 Jono7272 wrote: Format
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
have players set up their equiptment while you are playing the break video/intro videos, 20 minute breaks then you introduce the players then they start to set up even if there is no troubles thats a lot of downtime between matches.
Watching this event makes me appreciate how professionally run MLG Columbus was.
Overall, the amount of delay between games were pretty inexcusable when they only had to prepare one game at a time... It's almost as if there was a power outage between every match.
I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Totally agree on this.
I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a loser's bracket, a group stage or at least BO5s. There is no need to be able to cast EVERY game sequentially live on stage. And even if time was such an important factor, today's schedule could have been ten times tighter even with a more fair tournament format.
-Already mentioned, but having Bo5's would be more suitable for grand finals. I actually felt really bad for Ret.
-Larger map pool? Loser's choice or something? Anything than just the same 3 maps over again.
-Audio quality(balancing etc). It's also quite annoying having the sound settings constantly tweaked with in the middle of matches, Either test things before hand or do it within the 30 minutes between matches.
-Inform the players of where they are suppose to go and what to do. It felt kind of awkward at the start when the Korean players aimlessly walked around the stage after a series not really knowing where to go.
-Less downtime in between matches and give the audience an estimated time of when the next games will start. It's irritating having to stay at the computer waiting for games while I could be playing a ladder game or something. Also helps save bandwidth as I don't need to watch pointless game highlights/ awkward stories.
Thats all I can really think of at the moment.Decent first day overall, but a lot of problems could have been easily avoided.
I think the biggest improvement would be to just have someone, anyone, watching the stream (if their wasn't anyone doing so) as soon as it goes live. The majority of the audio problems should have been noticed right away, especially with the audio balance.
gunrun obsing definitely improved, but I don't understand why you wouldn't have an experienced obser right off the bat.
Games were great, I didn't mind any of the casters, don't know about the interviews as I didn't watch em. I understand this league is still in it's infancy, but it wasn't really a great start for a finals. It felt rather amateurish even with tastosis[9] and some of the best in the world playing.
On July 09 2011 15:36 MechKing wrote: I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
yeah and while you're at it, change the name from NASL to MLG
The primary complaint for me, is the overall experience of the event compared to similar tournaments.. When other tournaments have had problems, it seemed like alot of them were 'force majure' with internet issues, floods etc.. I sit back with the feeling, that NASL was in control of every error they made I think my biggest point of constructive feedback would be, to get professional staff
On July 09 2011 15:35 Milkis wrote: Watching this event makes me appreciate how professionally run MLG Columbus was.
I really hope NASL takes all this criticism to heart like MLG did after Dallas. It is the only way they will have motivation to improve for next season.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Totally agree on this.
I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a loser's bracket, a group stage or at least BO5s. There is no need to be able to cast EVERY game sequentially live on stage. And even if time was such an important factor, today's schedule could have been ten times tighter even with a more fair tournament format.
the GSL doesn't have a loser's bracket, does that mean their tournament is unfair?
honestly, people are just complaining about the format because their favorite player lost.
The fact that The number 1 seed (Ret) had to play the winner of the open tournament (Puma) while the runner up of the open tourney (Alive) had to face the sixth seed from NASL (Darkforce) is a farce.
NASL punished Ret for being the number 1 seed. The Open winner should not have been slotted against the first seed. They knew that whoever won that tourney would likely be better than many of the NASL finalists. The open winner should have gone somewhere in the middle.
At the very very very least Ret should have faced Alive and Darkforce should have drawn Puma. That would have actually rewarded Ret for being first instead of Darkforce for being 6th. It also gave Alive a much better draw for losing the finals to Puma.
The waiting was the worst thing ever, the intro vids took sooo long.. they had more then enough time to do bo5's instead of bo3's.. I mean you fly people over from all over the world to compete atleast give them a proper chance with a bo5 or a losers bracket? Oh and did I mention the waiting? If it wasn't for tastosis I don't think I would of continued watching.
1hour between each series is kinda ridiculous.. and the frustration was clear from the fans at the event. I heard even the round of 8 its going to be bo3? I mean seriously bo3 for round of 8? why?
On July 09 2011 15:36 MechKing wrote: I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
yeah and while you're at it, change the name from NASL to MLG
Don't show 30 mins of damn highlights before every match. A snippet of highlights is fine but not every freaking game.
And yeah 1 bo3 is such a waste for people to fly over for. Also spread the games better over the 3 days. 8 bo3s on friday which took 12 hours, ro8 and ro4 on sat and 3rd place and finals on sunday is such a bad spread of games.
The number one concern is the issue of interference in play from outside parties via chat or potential cheating. There should be a check that all players/casters are set to busy. This was the most concerning problem as it potentially damages all credibility in fair play for a multi-thousand dollar event.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Totally agree on this.
I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a loser's bracket, a group stage or at least BO5s. There is no need to be able to cast EVERY game sequentially live on stage. And even if time was such an important factor, today's schedule could have been ten times tighter even with a more fair tournament format.
the GSL doesn't have a loser's bracket, does that mean their tournament is unfair?
honestly, people are just complaining about the format because their favorite player lost.
The GSL dosent fly people from around the world to the finals tho. Its a monthly contest so i dont really see the huge problem there
On July 09 2011 15:39 SuperFanBoy wrote: The waiting was the worst thing ever, the intro vids took sooo long.. they had more then enough time to do bo5's instead of bo3's.. I mean you fly people over from all over the world to compete atleast give them a proper chance with a bo5 or a losers bracket? Oh and did I mention the waiting? If it wasn't for tastosis I don't think I would of continued watching.
1hour between each series is kinda ridiculous.. and the frustration was clear from the fans at the event. I heard even the round of 8 its going to be bo3? I mean seriously bo3 for round of 8? why?
Yeah, that's true. It could've been a BO5 if they scrapped the intros and all the other fluff. I think everybody would prefer that.
On July 09 2011 15:36 MechKing wrote: I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
That is for a 150+ player open bracket and pool/bracket play tournament. this is a 16 player grand finals, why the hell would there need to be all that stuff?
On topic, double elim bo5/7 is a MUST Sound quality is a MUST Good lighting in booth is a MUST Tripods.. use them Less time in between matches is a MUST More scripted, organized interviews No screaming with a mic down your throat (?_?) Crowd camera pans with cheerfuls/signs?
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Totally agree on this.
I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a loser's bracket, a group stage or at least BO5s. There is no need to be able to cast EVERY game sequentially live on stage. And even if time was such an important factor, today's schedule could have been ten times tighter even with a more fair tournament format.
the GSL doesn't have a loser's bracket, does that mean their tournament is unfair?
honestly, people are just complaining about the format because their favorite player lost.
LOL, people are complaining because we only get to see players one time! Wtf was the point of flying over sheth who could've been playing for his team yesterday for only one bo3??? What's the point of flying morrow over, and ret, and alive, and WhiteRa etc etc. when they have to pay money to fly over and then they get knocked out first round.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Totally agree on this.
I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be a loser's bracket, a group stage or at least BO5s. There is no need to be able to cast EVERY game sequentially live on stage. And even if time was such an important factor, today's schedule could have been ten times tighter even with a more fair tournament format.
the GSL doesn't have a loser's bracket, does that mean their tournament is unfair?
honestly, people are just complaining about the format because their favorite player lost.
LOL, people are complaining because we only get to see players one time! Wtf was the point of flying over sheth who could've been playing for his team yesterday for only one bo3??? What's the point of flying morrow over, and ret, and alive, and WhiteRa etc etc. when they have to pay money to fly over and then they get knocked out first round.
The point is they could've made 50,000 dollars but they weren't good enough to make it past the first round??
Its sad that the players can easily cheat if they don't set themselves to busy.. atleast one player was honest to pause the game to turn it off because he had ppl pming him what his opponent was doing..
On July 09 2011 15:36 MechKing wrote: I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
That is for a 150+ player open bracket and pool/bracket play tournament. this is a 16 player grand finals, why the hell would there need to be all that stuff?
On topic, double elim bo5/7 is a MUST Sound quality is a MUST Good lighting in booth is a MUST Tripods.. use them Less time in between matches is a MUST More scripted, organized interviews No screaming with a mic down your throat (?_?) Crowd camera pans with cheerfuls/signs?
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
While we are at this. Maps should be able to be eliminated, and have a losers pick afterwards. Whats the point of playing all the games on the same map. Also why is Ro8 only Bo3?
It was probably Xeris again who takes these amateur decisions. In the NASL Open tournament everyone played very outdated versions of the maps. When I asked him why are we playing the ladder versions of Shattered/Meta, he replied: "They're the most common forms of the map. #_# ". Everyone should take a look at the tournaments who had Xeris behind them: decent prizes but awful organization. This guy is a total amateur and I have no clue why he's still part of eSports.
On July 09 2011 15:41 ragnorr wrote: The GSL dosent fly people from around the world to the finals tho. Its a monthly contest so i dont really see the huge problem there
the bo3 format doesn't screw any of the players. do you honestly think a player has ever lost a bo3 because it wasn't a bo5? in a bo3 or bo5, the better player will win the series. sure it sucks to get eliminated after 2 games instead of 3 games but that's the player's fault for not playing their best. yeah, there could've been a chance the 0-2 player wins 3 games in a row and wins the bo5 3-2 but it's highly unlikely.
On July 09 2011 15:36 MechKing wrote: I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
That is for a 150+ player open bracket and pool/bracket play tournament. this is a 16 player grand finals, why the hell would there need to be all that stuff?
On topic, double elim bo5/7 is a MUST Sound quality is a MUST Good lighting in booth is a MUST Tripods.. use them Less time in between matches is a MUST More scripted, organized interviews No screaming with a mic down your throat (?_?) Crowd camera pans with cheerfuls/signs?
yeah
So we could get more than 8 bo3's in 12 hours :X
You can get more than 8 bo3's in 12 hours without doing those things...
On July 09 2011 15:35 Milkis wrote: Watching this event makes me appreciate how professionally run MLG Columbus was.
Overall, the amount of delay between games were pretty inexcusable when they only had to prepare one game at a time... It's almost as if there was a power outage between every match.
Agree totaly. MLG feels so solid now & professional atm. Its the tournament I look forward to most. Even weeks before i make up plans with family so nothing comes in the way of a MLG weekend :-)
Yes, I think the format is a big issue. Bo5 is really just an extended Bo3 if one still lost in the first round. At least have it at double elimination.
On July 09 2011 15:44 MechKing wrote: LOL, people are complaining because we only get to see players one time! Wtf was the point of flying over sheth who could've been playing for his team yesterday for only one bo3??? What's the point of flying morrow over, and ret, and alive, and WhiteRa etc etc. when they have to pay money to fly over and then they get knocked out first round.
every single player had a fair chance of getting into the round of 8. sheth and all those players came win prize money and the title of NASL champion. i don't see why there's so much uproar over the format. yes, it sucks to be eliminated but when you don't play your best and get outclassed, that's what happens. how is getting eliminated in 1 bo3 different from getting eliminated in 2 bo3s?
i actually like the msl(or osl forgot) system where it's 1 game a day. would be nice to be bo3 with 1 game a day or just plain bo5. i dislike double elimination and i strongly preach my disdain for it. it just kills hype when someone is coming from losers and actually has a disadvantage. real sports never gives hard disadvantages. home court advantage, sure. making a guy win 2 sets for finals, no. look at tsl3 it was amazing.
but yea i would like to see more then bo3 single elimination. bo5 is good, it's perfect for single elimination. then again they probably have time constraints or something.
On July 09 2011 15:41 ragnorr wrote: The GSL dosent fly people from around the world to the finals tho. Its a monthly contest so i dont really see the huge problem there
the bo3 format doesn't screw any of the players. do you honestly think a player has ever lost a bo3 because it wasn't a bo5? in a bo3 or bo5, the better player will win the series. sure it sucks to get eliminated after 2 games instead of 3 games but that's the player's fault for not playing their best. yeah, there could've been a chance the 0-2 player wins 3 games in a row and wins the bo5 3-2 but it's highly unlikely.
The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
On July 09 2011 15:44 MechKing wrote: LOL, people are complaining because we only get to see players one time! Wtf was the point of flying over sheth who could've been playing for his team yesterday for only one bo3??? What's the point of flying morrow over, and ret, and alive, and WhiteRa etc etc. when they have to pay money to fly over and then they get knocked out first round.
every single player had a fair chance of getting into the round of 8. sheth and all those players came win prize money and the title of NASL champion. i don't see why there's so much uproar over the format. yes, it sucks to be eliminated but when you don't play your best and get outclassed, that's what happens. how is getting eliminated in 1 bo3 different from getting eliminated in 2 bo3s?
The fact is they had time to fit in more games, so why not? with so much breaks and long intro's they could of actually probably fitted in bo21's tbqh.
On July 09 2011 15:44 MechKing wrote: LOL, people are complaining because we only get to see players one time! Wtf was the point of flying over sheth who could've been playing for his team yesterday for only one bo3??? What's the point of flying morrow over, and ret, and alive, and WhiteRa etc etc. when they have to pay money to fly over and then they get knocked out first round.
every single player had a fair chance of getting into the round of 8. sheth and all those players came win prize money and the title of NASL champion. i don't see why there's so much uproar over the format. yes, it sucks to be eliminated but when you don't play your best and get outclassed, that's what happens. how is getting eliminated in 1 bo3 different from getting eliminated in 2 bo3s?
You are very aggressive. Tone it down please. Losing 2 Bo3s at least gives you time to adjust and make more out of the trouble of flying in from somewhere outside US. Also its good for the fans.
On the 9 weeks thing not only that but Open Tournament should be to get INTO the pool play not INTO the finals. Thats just freaking stupid. All that scheduling for the actual players for someone who didn't do that got into it from open and decides that he can take someone out in a simple bo3
The 'hot' female interviewers were a joke.....Personally, I winced each time those women asked a single question. It quickly became apparent that they no very little about the game, and are there based on their looks. Would anyone agree, their presence on stage was nothing short of cliche and useless? Have the casters speak to the winner at the table....If a translator is needed have the translator sit down with the winner, the casters and the table.
Sadly, I feel compelled to disclaim that I am no woman hater; I don't want to but I am saying it anyway.
One last small bit of absurdity. Can Starcraft pros not summon enough mental fortitude to hold a microphone with their own hands, to their own face???? Do they really need an extra body there to hold the microphone? Is the NASL a welfare program for good looking women who know as much about SC as I do about quantum physics? ( I dropped general physics after a month )
On July 09 2011 15:36 MechKing wrote: I said this in the different thread, but do the same thing as MLG. They really have it down right. Put big name games on the main stage, and then have a "player area" where the other players go and play their games. And put on two streams, one for main stage and one for the player area, have the different casting duos commentate the match, and that way there will almost always be some sort of games on.
yeah and while you're at it, change the name from NASL to MLG
Dreamhack did it too...
it's a trend that NASL has to keep up with to be up to par with other big tournaments
On July 09 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
ok, say each match on average is 20 minutes, i think that's fair. 8 series, a potential of 24 games, that means a total of 8 hours of games for a bo3. if you change it to a bo5, there's a potential of 40 games, meaning 13 hours and 20 minutes. how is it practical to increase the amount of content by 66% when you're under a strict time schedule?
On July 09 2011 15:52 Vinski wrote: On the 9 weeks thing not only that but Open Tournament should be to get INTO the pool play not INTO the finals. Thats just freaking stupid. All that scheduling for the actual players for someone who didn't do that got into it from open and decides that he can take someone out in a simple bo3
Agreed, does the NHL or MBA play an entire season in order to enter the playoffs and play one game to advance in the tourney? No, they play the regular season out for seeding in the playoffs. IMO, this is exactly how NASL should work. They shouldn't be flying to a "finals", they should be flying to a playoff tournament.
I would definitely suggest what the person I quoted mentioned. Use a round robin system (4 players in each group), to see who advances to the round of 8 (top 2 advance). Seems pretty obvious that this should have been the format from the start. Whoever decided that the so called "finals" should have a best of 3 opening round should have had people shouting at him about how wrong that decision was.... You don't fly people all the way across the world to play a single best of 3 . You just don't...
Edit: To my last point... IN ANY COMPETITION, Not just Starcraft 2!
On July 09 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
ok, say each match on average is 20 minutes, i think that's fair. 8 series, a potential of 24 games, that means a total of 8 hours of games for a bo3. if you change it to a bo5, there's a potential of 40 games, meaning 13 hours and 20 minutes. how is it practical to increase the amount of content by 66% when you're under a strict time schedule?
well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
On July 09 2011 15:56 Particle wrote: One last small bit of absurdity. Can Starcraft pros not summon enough mental fortitude to hold a microphone with their own hands, to their own face???? Do they really need an extra body there to hold the microphone? Is the NASL a welfare program for good looking women who know as much about SC as I do about quantum physics? ( I dropped general physics after a month )
having the interviewer holding the microphone is pretty common, not sure what you're whining about. there's really nothing wrong with the interviewer holding one microphone between him or herself and the interviewee.
On July 09 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
ok, say each match on average is 20 minutes, i think that's fair. 8 series, a potential of 24 games, that means a total of 8 hours of games for a bo3. if you change it to a bo5, there's a potential of 40 games, meaning 13 hours and 20 minutes. how is it practical to increase the amount of content by 66% when you're under a strict time schedule?
well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
NASL was a let down..
Put it this way, MLG has a 1000 plus player tournament in three days. NASL takes 8+ hours to get through the 16man opening round!
On July 09 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
ok, say each match on average is 20 minutes, i think that's fair. 8 series, a potential of 24 games, that means a total of 8 hours of games for a bo3. if you change it to a bo5, there's a potential of 40 games, meaning 13 hours and 20 minutes. how is it practical to increase the amount of content by 66% when you're under a strict time schedule?
Well I would rather have a losers bracket than bo5 but if they did do bo5 they could have done 2 streams (they already have 2 sets of casters) and less downtime between the matches.
I'm sure they could schedule a lot better and be more efficient. HSC was like 4 days, 32 competitors, had group stages, and a losers bracket. NASL finals are 3 days long, 16 competitors, no group stages, and no losers bracket.
The biggest argument I have for a double elimination would be that we get to see more games in slightly more evenly matched bo3s. The thing about the losers bracket is that if you lose a match against the eventual champion FIRST round, then you're done, you get nothing even though its possible you would have placed SECOND had the matchups been slightly different.
For example, say we took all the winners from today and theoretically restarted the bracket with the winners all facing each other in one side of the bracket, and all the losers facing each other on the other side. Now the winners of on the loser's side of the bracket are guaranteed to place higher than what realistically happened, while the losers of the winners could have potentially placed higher but were subject to an unfortunate pairing.
Now keep the theoretic image in your head, wouldn't it make sense that we would see more exiting games between the winners side players and the losers side players, because they're more evenly matched? Sure its awesome to watch the Koreans go 2-0 in every match, but I want to see some more games from the players that got eliminated, almost none of them were able to show any kind of style. (White-ra esp comes to mind)
Also I don't like the set maps, InControl even said on stage that they were great maps, I disagree and even if I did like them it was really boring watching the same two maps get played all day.
On July 09 2011 16:01 SuperFanBoy wrote: well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
NASL was a let down..
i agree that the NASL showing was pretty piss poor, but honestly, the people complaining about the format are just upset fans who thought their favorite player deserved a second chance. there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament. i'm sure they could've definitely fixed the seeding but i'll say it again, there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament
Some of you guys are really close-minded about the bo5 suggestion. No where does it say all the first round matches had to be played in one day. They could have 1.5 days dedicated to quarterfinals, another days worth dedicated to semis, and half a day for the finals.
- delay waiting 2 hours WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION heavily sucked
- sound sound was a plain joke throughout the first 4 games i watched (it was too late by then, see point 1) neither caster nor interviewer sound worked properly. didn't they ever test the techsetup?
- observer observer in first two games made me puke, i dunno what was going on became better later on still was quite messy and missed a lot of stuff
- delay between games the intro vids are a great idea, just highlight vids in sc2 are quite boring and i didn't wanna see them after waiting 2 hours to finally see some games
+ streamquality was better than freestream of GOMTV atleast
On July 09 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
ok, say each match on average is 20 minutes, i think that's fair. 8 series, a potential of 24 games, that means a total of 8 hours of games for a bo3. if you change it to a bo5, there's a potential of 40 games, meaning 13 hours and 20 minutes. how is it practical to increase the amount of content by 66% when you're under a strict time schedule?
Maybe if they shortened the intro videos for the players and removed the god damn hour long break, they might, just might, be able to squeeze some extra content in. If that's the case they can have Incontrol/Gretrop and Tastosis alternate the commentary.
Things like Day[9] sounding like Cho'Gath are all evidence to suggest that there has been a lack of beta testing in the system. Honestly, NASL just needs a little more experience (which I agree, shouldn't be realized only just now)
Equalize every audio feed, EQ main mics, balance the audio and then most importantly, send the orchestrated sound in equal amounts out of your Left and Right. I really don't know how that wasn't fixed all day. Sort of embarrassing really, but oh well, great games NASL, I still love you.
Indeed, we have seen many tournaments do 32player bo5 tournament over 3 days.. I mean the NASL is doing 16 players on top of that your saying they cant fit in a bo5? I don't see what they are going to do on the final day when there is only a few games to be played? will it only go for a few hours or will it go for the whole day with 5hour long breaks?
On July 09 2011 15:50 AndAgain wrote: The point is that a BO5 is always better than a BO3 if it's practical- which it was. The more games you play, the more likely the better player will win. And it wasn't all 0-2 loses, there were 1-2 loses.
ok, say each match on average is 20 minutes, i think that's fair. 8 series, a potential of 24 games, that means a total of 8 hours of games for a bo3. if you change it to a bo5, there's a potential of 40 games, meaning 13 hours and 20 minutes. how is it practical to increase the amount of content by 66% when you're under a strict time schedule?
The likelyhood of all 8 series going all 5 games and the average game length being 20 minutes is almost nonexistent.
for me -2 hours ( maybe more ) delay at the start -so why is gretorp and incontrol casting so many games when they have day9 and tastetosis and they can mix the 3 of them all the time? -terrible observing by this i mean TERRIBLE -no hp bars ( no comment ) -complete waste of time with this intros and pre-game interviews they are nowhere near hyping or interesting -sounds issues bla bla -players looked so creepy in the booths -why do i have to hear the audience when the game is played? -format is no comment also -pretty sure they won't release vods or reps for free to compensate which makes it even worse
On July 09 2011 16:01 SuperFanBoy wrote: well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
NASL was a let down..
i agree that the NASL showing was pretty piss poor, but honestly, the people complaining about the format are just upset fans who thought their favorite player deserved a second chance. there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament. i'm sure they could've definitely fixed the seeding but i'll say it again, there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament
People are more concerned about seeing more good games rather than if it's fair. If someone gets beat in a bo1 I would still consider that fair
I'm an MC fan so I'm not complaining about my favorite player needing a second chance. But I would like to see more games from those that are eliminated. Perhaps someone got matched up with the best player in the first round but they might be the second best player in the tournament. Or maybe I like to see how the people that were eliminated fair off against the other players besides that one person he lost to.
On July 09 2011 16:12 zala2023 wrote: Maybe if they shortened the intro videos for the players and removed the god damn hour long break, they might, just might, be able to squeeze some extra content in. If that's the case they can have Incontrol/Gretrop and Tastosis alternate the commentary.
yes, i agree the nasl wasted a lot of time but i'm talking about in general. it's not practial to increase the running time of a tournament by 66% on pure content just so a player can be eliminated in 3 games instead of 2.
On July 09 2011 15:35 Milkis wrote: Watching this event makes me appreciate how professionally run MLG Columbus was.
Overall, the amount of delay between games were pretty inexcusable when they only had to prepare one game at a time... It's almost as if there was a power outage between every match.
I can't believe we used to think 45 minutes of waiting during the Flash versus Jaedong power outage was a long time... We literally had to wait for three fucking hours at one point without so much as an acknowledgement let alone apology from the shitty organisers.
As for suggestions - don't charge us $25 for such a crap product next time.
On July 09 2011 16:01 SuperFanBoy wrote: well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
NASL was a let down..
i agree that the NASL showing was pretty piss poor, but honestly, the people complaining about the format are just upset fans who thought their favorite player deserved a second chance. there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament. i'm sure they could've definitely fixed the seeding but i'll say it again, there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament
People are more concerned about seeing more good games rather than if it's fair. If someone gets beat in a bo1 I would still consider that fair
I'm an MC fan so I'm not complaining about my favorite player needing a second chance. But I would like to see more games from those that are eliminated. Perhaps someone got matched up with the best player in the first round but they might be the second best player in the tournament. Or maybe I like to see how the people that were eliminated fair off against the other players besides that one person he lost to.
Best of one fair? LOL. So if nestea got cheesed out a tournament by combatEX you would call that fair?
On July 09 2011 16:01 SuperFanBoy wrote: well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
NASL was a let down..
i agree that the NASL showing was pretty piss poor, but honestly, the people complaining about the format are just upset fans who thought their favorite player deserved a second chance. there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament. i'm sure they could've definitely fixed the seeding but i'll say it again, there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament
People are more concerned about seeing more good games rather than if it's fair. If someone gets beat in a bo1 I would still consider that fair
I'm an MC fan so I'm not complaining about my favorite player needing a second chance. But I would like to see more games from those that are eliminated. Perhaps someone got matched up with the best player in the first round but they might be the second best player in the tournament. Or maybe I like to see how the people that were eliminated fair off against the other players besides that one person he lost to.
Best of one fair? LOL. So if nestea got cheesed out a tournament by combatEX you would call that fair?
Yes. It is fair. Unless one player starts with more minerals than the other - then what's the issue? It's just not satisfying.
On July 09 2011 16:01 SuperFanBoy wrote: well they have 3 days, they could of spaced out the games over the 3 days.. i mean the final day its only the the final match and 3rd and 4th place match.. i mean thats 2-3 hours max and 9hours of nothing.
NASL was a let down..
i agree that the NASL showing was pretty piss poor, but honestly, the people complaining about the format are just upset fans who thought their favorite player deserved a second chance. there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament. i'm sure they could've definitely fixed the seeding but i'll say it again, there's nothing unfair about a 16 player single elimination tournament
People are more concerned about seeing more good games rather than if it's fair. If someone gets beat in a bo1 I would still consider that fair
I'm an MC fan so I'm not complaining about my favorite player needing a second chance. But I would like to see more games from those that are eliminated. Perhaps someone got matched up with the best player in the first round but they might be the second best player in the tournament. Or maybe I like to see how the people that were eliminated fair off against the other players besides that one person he lost to.
Best of one fair? LOL. So if nestea got cheesed out a tournament by combatEX you would call that fair?
If the rules states that it was bo1, I would consider it fair. If Nestea beat combatex in a bo1 it would be fair too but it doesn't necessarily mean I think the best player won. Just like in a ladder game, if someone beats another person... he beat him fairly be it cheese or not.
On July 09 2011 16:21 EnderCraft wrote: Best of one fair? LOL. So if nestea got cheesed out a tournament by combatEX you would call that fair?
you make it sound like cheeses = auto-win. it's possible to defend against a cheese. so if in a bo1 nestea got eliminated because of a cheese and he didn't play safely, i would consider it fair.
I agree, the single elimination finals isn't ideal, especially for a Bo3. Still, I think the event has been fantastic so far. There were some technical issues at first, but they were mostly resolved by the end of the night, and the production value was good.
My biggest complaint would probably be the length of time. 8 matches in 12 hours. That's just ridiculous.
Also, the sound was bad. Actually, bad doesn't even begin to describe it. However, I know some have mentioned that they don't want to hear the audience during the matches. I can't agree with that. I love hearing the audience reaction during an SC2 match, and it really sucks that competing tourneys (I'm looking at you GSL) don't have it.
On July 09 2011 16:29 Baby_Seal wrote: I agree, the single elimination finals isn't ideal, especially for a Bo3. Still, I think the event has been fantastic so far. There were some technical issues at first, but they were mostly resolved by the end of the night, and the production value was good.
On July 09 2011 15:41 ragnorr wrote: The GSL dosent fly people from around the world to the finals tho. Its a monthly contest so i dont really see the huge problem there
the bo3 format doesn't screw any of the players. do you honestly think a player has ever lost a bo3 because it wasn't a bo5? in a bo3 or bo5, the better player will win the series. sure it sucks to get eliminated after 2 games instead of 3 games but that's the player's fault for not playing their best. yeah, there could've been a chance the 0-2 player wins 3 games in a row and wins the bo5 3-2 but it's highly unlikely.
So you're telling us there was never one occasion in the history of Starcraft where a player who was down 1-2 after the third game of a Bo5 came back to win 3-2 ? It's just basic logic : the more games you play, the less chances the inferior player has of creating an upset.
On July 09 2011 15:41 ragnorr wrote: The GSL dosent fly people from around the world to the finals tho. Its a monthly contest so i dont really see the huge problem there
the bo3 format doesn't screw any of the players. do you honestly think a player has ever lost a bo3 because it wasn't a bo5? in a bo3 or bo5, the better player will win the series. sure it sucks to get eliminated after 2 games instead of 3 games but that's the player's fault for not playing their best. yeah, there could've been a chance the 0-2 player wins 3 games in a row and wins the bo5 3-2 but it's highly unlikely.
So you're telling us there was never one occasion in the history of Starcraft where a player who was down 1-2 after the third game of a Bo5 came back to win 3-2 ? It's just basic logic : the more games you play, the less chances the inferior player has of creating an upset.
this.
In poker luck determines one hand, however skill determines multiple number of hands.
For me the Biggest issue was the Audio, there really is no excuse for it being as bad and unbalanced as it was. Also with as much Downtime as there was to fix it... why didn't that happen? At this point I have to assume NASL has nobody like as Sound tech working with them and they desperately need it. I've been noticing sound issues with NASL for awhile so this definitely drove me up the wall that they seem oblivious to the problem.
I can agree with what others are saying about the Bo3 format, but I'm not overly worried about that as it's totally a style thing. I mean after all Bo3 is a pretty standard format across SC so it's reasonable.
i believe a map pool and veto system for the first map and afterwards loser picks next map is a good system.
bo5 up to semifinal and bo7 from that point onwards. and make that double elimination. not only in order to make it a more fair system, but also to provide more games. white-ra vs boxer anyone?
Why is it only a BO3 if its the finals at the end of the season? Like most people, I suggest at least BO5 and/or loser bracket. As well, the audio quality was very bad... it fluctuated greatly.
Day9 please don't scream with the mic very close to your mouth! It hurts our ears. Learn how far the mic should be away to properly broadcast.
This could also just be solved with a simple limiter on the audio levels. The camera i use at work even have this sort of function in the built-in sound recorder (~$10000 Camera). I dont think it unreasonable to have that function somewhere in all that sound equipment they showed pictures of tbh...
Also, after 8+ weeks of finding the best, most qualified players. It would be nice to have Bo5 even from Ro16 imo. This is, imo, what made TSL3 so epic.
Remind the interviewers that they're always talking to the person they're interviewing. They should address all questions to the player, not the translator.
Yeah, it takes some getting used to when you're doing it. But then it doesn't look like the player just happens to stand there. Think of when Artosis interviewed people with Jon translating.
Most of my input is gonna be what has already been said, but first I have to say; I'm tired of seeing this elitist attitude, and "keep the big guys where they are cause I don't want to see anything else that I might not like" (ie. have tastosis cast the whole thing) when comparing the NASL to other events. This is the first big run for them, and look at how much has improved since the very start of this thing.
Let's stick with the constructive deal
- Definitely should be BO5 instead of BO3 - The sound issues were mostly fixed by the end, but it was all fluctuating for some reason - The intro videos were cool, but a little too long. - Hopefully things will be streamlined for next time so there isn't ~30 minutes between matches (again, like showing the intro videos while the players setup their booth, and having 5 minute breaks in between instead of 10+) - The booths could be a little bigger and look better (they don't look terrible by any means) - Not sure what was up with the cameras, but they were really shaky - Random shots of the crowd would be cool
Despite all of the problems, the enthusiasm everyone had more than made up for it. Even watching it on the stream I felt really engaged, like I was there (even more than MLG). The storytelling was done really well, and I think it would only get better as time goes on.
-Needs group play -Needs shorter hype videos -Needs consistent audio -Needs casters not named Gretorp -Needs day9 to no scream into the mic -Needs to not average less than 2 games per hour
When I watched the tsl, I felt like the obs was sitting next to the commentators and was showing on screen exactly what the commentators were talking about. Anytime there was a battle being described, I was watching it. It felt so smooth. NASL obs, not so much, I was getting the feeling like hey move to the middle of the screen, there's stuff happening!
I only caught a few games, but it definitely felt like the wait time in between was way too long
having to pay 9 bucks a day for parking was a nice surprise
also they have these long breaks between series but players don't start up set up until after the lights dim and then we gotta wait even longer while the casters try to entertain. why can''t they get the setup going during the breaks??
Maybe the event was a little bit Disorganised but most big events start out this way. I'm sure you will see improvement in the next season.
My Complaint, apart from the Obvious teething Bugs, was that people complained too much in the chat. Poor NASL workers were trying top do their best and the chat was giving hell.
the chat was off putting and distracting from the games. even when the games were on the chat complained on and on and on.
A lot of problems have already been beat to death in other threads, but to reiterate:
Number 1 seed vs. winner of the open bracket was a terrible idea, because a Korean who didn't get into league play won the open bracket. I'd even go as far as to say it's very much a possibility he's in the top 3 or 4 in terms of skill here. Bad matchup. Dunno an easy solution for this.
Today: Gretorp and InControl aren't bad casters, buuut... Day9, Tasteless and Artosis are PHENOMENAL casters. There's a reason every major event tries to get them to cast for them. When it's something like MC vs. BoxeR... we need to have Day9, Tasteless and Artosis, or some permutation of the three casting. Hopefully this won't be an issue further in the tournament.
I'm honestly a little sad that the GSTL threads barely break 150 pages, while NASL goes past 1000. The GSTL games are fairly well-casted, feature a great team format, and have DRG being awesome.
With the standard TSL, IGN PL and MLG Columbus set, it's gonna take a lot more than this, NASL.
Maybe the event was a little bit Disorganised but most big events start out this way. I'm sure you will see improvement in the next season.
My Complaint, apart from the Obvious teething Bugs, was that people complained too much in the chat. Poor NASL workers were trying top do their best and the chat was giving hell.
the chat was off putting and distracting from the games. even when the games were on the chat complained on and on and on.
There are only a few people in the chat compared to the multiple thousands watching the game. Even less actually chat within the chat. To address your complaint, simply ignore the chat. Stream chatters are pretty much entirely trolls anyway. Just close it, or better yet, don't open it to begin with. If you watch via TL and not on the JTV page it does not auto open.
On July 09 2011 16:52 Teogamer wrote: -Needs group play -Needs shorter hype videos -Needs consistent audio -Needs casters not named Gretorp -Needs day9 to no scream into the mic -Needs to not average less than 2 games per hour
They had months of group play and play-offs...
edit:
My main criticism is also only having one best of 3 every hour. Maybe use the 4 booth system that GSL has?
For future reference, what format should they use for Ro16? (Ro8 onward would ideally be Ro5 and finals would be Ro7)
Bo3 Single Elimination As it is now. You fly all the way from Europe and get eliminated after 10 minutes.
Bo5 Single Elimination Similar to how it is presently, it takes longer to get eliminated.
Bo3/Bo5 Double Elimination The Bo3 or Bo5 is dependent on logistics here. What is important is a player gets a chance to even out in the tournament at Ro16.
4 Groups (4 each ranked by seed) Bo3 round robin Each player has at least 3 matches in the Ro16. Sudden death tiebreaker. Top 2 advance to Ro8.
Poll: For future reference, what format should they use for Ro16?
4 Groups (4 each ranked by seed) Bo3 round robin (362)
55%
Bo3/Bo5 Double Elimination (212)
32%
Bo5 Single Elimination (56)
9%
Bo3 Single Elimination (27)
4%
657 total votes
Your vote: For future reference, what format should they use for Ro16?
(Vote): Bo3 Single Elimination (Vote): Bo5 Single Elimination (Vote): Bo3/Bo5 Double Elimination (Vote): 4 Groups (4 each ranked by seed) Bo3 round robin
For those arguing for a BO5... I disagree. The only thing it would have done was extent the beatings that the foreigners received by about five minutes (considering how quickly their asses were kicked in most of the games), or alternatively allowed Alicia to come back. BO3 matches were the quickest way to weed out the crappy foreign players so the real games can start tomorrow when its Koreans versus Koreans. Given that we had three hour long delays fucked if I was going to wait for BO5 matches - I had my whole Saturday free expecting NASL to only take up a few hours in the morning but ended up waiting all day for Sen's game.
#1 Follow Sundance's example and fucking admit that you screwed up big time and offer the people their money back or give them free passes for next season. Retweeting the few positiv tweets of how you are improving and "this is just ok for your first try", is just pathetic.
On July 09 2011 17:17 Darkybald wrote: #1 Follow Sundance's example and fucking admit that you screwed up big time and offer the people their money back or give them free passes for next season. Retweeting the few positiv tweets of how you are improving and "this is just ok for your first try", is just pathetic.
This. I'm definitely not going to be an idiot next season and purchase the tickets ASAP... I'll definitely wait and see what the feedback is next time. Nobody would have expected, with the amount of hype InControl had put in, how incredibly shit the quality of this tournament was going to be. My biggest complaint has always been waiting two whole fucking days after the rebroadcasts before VODs were put up whereas in the GSL you get them literally within the hour.
On July 09 2011 17:16 Dark Stalker wrote: For those arguing for a BO5... I disagree. The only thing it would have done was extent the beatings that the foreigners received by about five minutes (considering how quickly their asses were kicked in most of the games), or alternatively allowed Alicia to come back. BO3 matches were the quickest way to weed out the crappy foreign players so the real games can start tomorrow when its Koreans versus Koreans. Given that we had three hour long delays fucked if I was going to wait for BO5 matches - I had my whole Saturday free expecting NASL to only take up a few hours in the morning but ended up waiting all day for Sen's game.
I feel the same way. A BO5 or double elimination won't change the results that much. The other thing is if they did any more than BO3s the tournament would last for over 12 hours. I also mainly saw BO3 complaints only when the fan favorite gets knocked out so there is probably a degree of bias when people are asking for BO5s or double elimination.
You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
On July 09 2011 17:16 Dark Stalker wrote: For those arguing for a BO5... I disagree. The only thing it would have done was extent the beatings that the foreigners received by about five minutes (considering how quickly their asses were kicked in most of the games), or alternatively allowed Alicia to come back. BO3 matches were the quickest way to weed out the crappy foreign players so the real games can start tomorrow when its Koreans versus Koreans. Given that we had three hour long delays fucked if I was going to wait for BO5 matches - I had my whole Saturday free expecting NASL to only take up a few hours in the morning but ended up waiting all day for Sen's game.
I feel the same way. A BO5 or double elimination won't change the results that much. The other thing is if they did any more than BO3s the tournament would last for over 12 hours. I also mainly saw BO3 complaints only when the fan favorite gets knocked out so there is probably a degree of bias when people are asking for BO5s or double elimination.
Those damn crops aye? Fucking urbanisation, I hate it too. Had to get up the other morning at 4am just to beat my cows 'cos they wouldn't stop mooing.
The only issue I have is being in Asia for business this week, the original starting time of 2AM was already less than ideal, and being told it's going to start in a minute 20+times when it ended up being two hours was frustrating. I ended up falling asleep and missing a large chunk of games. I know NASL is probably not targeting the Asian market but even Jinro gave up after the long delays. Can't comment too much on production since I was only able to catch 2 games but what I saw was decent.
On July 09 2011 17:35 ragealot wrote: The only issue I have is being in Asia for business this week, the original starting time of 2AM was already less than ideal, and being told it's going to start in a minute 20+times when it ended up being two hours was frustrating. I ended up falling asleep and missing a large chunk of games. I know NASL is probably not targeting the Asian market but even Jinro gave up after the long delays. Can't comment too much on production since I was only able to catch 2 games but what I saw was decent.
I disagree. People in the US have to lose sleep to watch GSL, why can't Asians do the same for NASL? It's mutual.
A technical issue: I found the imbalanced sound (80%right/20%left) very annoying and unique to this event. I had never encountered that before. Also the volume levels were inconsistent with the commentators fading out and in occasionally.
For the format: I would agree, that groups of 4 with round robin would be awesome, simply because it gives everyone a chance to excel. Four groups of four can be done in a day, if you let games run parallel with either 2 streams or only 1 game shown.
Audio Sometimes too loud, sometimes too low, sometimes has echo, sometimes cannot hear at all, sometimes un-balanced between left and right channel.
Time-spacing Do you have to do a 30 min preview of players and some empty down time? Is that intentional? Is that avoidable? Why do people get 5~10 min of exciting games and wait for another 30 min?
On July 09 2011 17:39 Thrombozyt wrote: A technical issue: I found the imbalanced sound (80%right/20%left) very annoying and unique to this event. I had never encountered that before. Also the volume levels were inconsistent with the commentators fading out and in occasionally.
For the format: I would agree, that groups of 4 with round robin would be awesome, simply because it gives everyone a chance to excel. Four groups of four can be done in a day, if you let games run parallel with either 2 streams or only 1 game shown.
Yes, it can. 2 streams and better organization to clean up those waiting times.
On July 09 2011 17:35 ragealot wrote: The only issue I have is being in Asia for business this week, the original starting time of 2AM was already less than ideal, and being told it's going to start in a minute 20+times when it ended up being two hours was frustrating. I ended up falling asleep and missing a large chunk of games. I know NASL is probably not targeting the Asian market but even Jinro gave up after the long delays. Can't comment too much on production since I was only able to catch 2 games but what I saw was decent.
I disagree. People in the US have to lose sleep to watch GSL, why can't Asians do the same for NASL? It's mutual.
He didn't complain about the time, but about the 2 hour delay from the scheduled time. GSL usually starts right on time.
On July 09 2011 17:35 ragealot wrote: The only issue I have is being in Asia for business this week, the original starting time of 2AM was already less than ideal, and being told it's going to start in a minute 20+times when it ended up being two hours was frustrating. I ended up falling asleep and missing a large chunk of games. I know NASL is probably not targeting the Asian market but even Jinro gave up after the long delays. Can't comment too much on production since I was only able to catch 2 games but what I saw was decent.
I disagree. People in the US have to lose sleep to watch GSL, why can't Asians do the same for NASL? It's mutual.
You disagree that starting 2 hours late while continually being told the event will start soon isn't frustrating? your post is stupid and ignorant you didn't even read what he said you just wanted to get in your comment
On July 09 2011 17:35 ragealot wrote: The only issue I have is being in Asia for business this week, the original starting time of 2AM was already less than ideal, and being told it's going to start in a minute 20+times when it ended up being two hours was frustrating. I ended up falling asleep and missing a large chunk of games. I know NASL is probably not targeting the Asian market but even Jinro gave up after the long delays. Can't comment too much on production since I was only able to catch 2 games but what I saw was decent.
I disagree. People in the US have to lose sleep to watch GSL, why can't Asians do the same for NASL? It's mutual.
You're missing the point. He was complaining about the two hours delay.
While there were obviously technical difficulties during the the event that is far less important to me than what I believe was the main problem, the scheduling.
After watching literally every day of NASL through the re-broadcast for us here in Finland(EU), I was excited to check out the finals as I wanted to see the culmination of their efforts. However when actually watching the event, I feel that having 4 Bo3s in what? 6-7 hours of viewing was NOT acceptable. It was 4am here by the time the 2nd half of the bracket began and by that time it was getting ridiculous so I had to sleep due to obligations.
Of course people are going to chime in with "But us Americans have to stay up for GSL blah blah", which is all good and fine, but the GSL doesn't run for a ludicrous amount of time, and is scheduled properly.
Also I understand that NASL wants to make a big deal of the matches, having a build up to them etc and making them feel exciting/epic, with a narrative. I do feel though that the same effect could be achieved in a more condensed manner.
I have to say, I think this Playoff-format is horrible. you spend two months trying to qualify for this event through the league and then you can get knocked out by a single bo3? Also there is little reason to try to get the top spots in the league; as long as you get top 2 in your division you are in. This results in the top players losing interest in the league because there is little reason to try anymore when you sit at 7-0, 7-1 or 8-0.
Here is my suggesstion to this. It is fairly complicated but has the pros of giving advantages to the top seeded players, i.e. there is a reason to try to get #1 seed in the league, you can't get eliminated by a bo3, the final rankings are much clearer (no 9-16 and 5-8), every match is important and there are a lot more games to watch.
First of all this format only has room for 15 players, so one playoff-spot or the open bracket spot has to go. Personally I'd get rid of the open bracket spot, as I feel a player doesn't have a place in a leagues playoffs when he wasn't in the league to begin with.
First round is the Ro12. 3 groups of 4 players in Dual tournament format (same as GSL Code S), only each match is a bo3 instead of a bo1. Top 2 of each group advance. Detailed seeding in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
Playoff # refers to the league ranking of the playoff qualifiers
Group A Seed #4 vs. Playoff #5 Seed #9 vs. Seed #10
Group B Seed #5 vs. Playoff #4 Seed #8 vs. Playoff #2
Group C Seed #6 vs. Playoff #3 Seed #7 vs. Playoff #2
Losers of loser match get 13/14/15th Losers of final match get 10/11/12th
2nd Round is the Ro8. 6 winners of round 1 + 2nd and 3rd League Seed. Same format again, but as only 3 can advance the winners of the final match in each group have to face each other for the last spot. Think about tennis, you have to win 2 games more than you lost to advance. + Show Spoiler +
Group 1 Seed #2 vs. 2nd Group C 1st Group B vs. 2nd Group A
Group 2 Seed #3 vs. 2nd Group B 1st Group A vs. 1st Group C
Losers of Loser Match get 8/9th Losers of Final Match get 6/7th Loser of advancement match gets 5th
3rd round are the semis, the #1 Seed is inserted in here and we go to single elimination as Bo5 or Bo7. As an added bonus the #1 could choose his opponent.
So, those are my thoughts, I think this is a much better format as performing really well in the league guarantees you a top 9 or even top 4 spot, this makes the league part much more important, which it should be in my opinion. In total there will be 30 matches with a 3rd place match(26 bo3, 4 bo5/7), comapred to 16 in the current format.
My biggest complaint is the Map Pool. I would really like to hear the reasoning behind having the same 3 maps over and over again. Make it random or losers choice or something, but this is just annoying. Other than that, I agree with OP. The casters didn't disturb me too much though, I like iNcontrol/Gretorp. And I wouldn't mind an official statement from a NASL guy. I mean, it is fine to have technical difficulties, nobody expects it to be on the level of an MLG/GSL (which had ton more experience), but it almost seemed as if nothing was tested beforehand? If so, that would be very weird. Also, for future reference, maybe hire somebody who has done events like this for the finals just to look through everything and make sure everything works fine (there's gotta be people from MLG/DH/GSL who can do that).
They should of kept it much simpler and just focused on getting the game's video and audio and the caster's audio working well. They've tried to do such much time filler rubbish that they've given themselves so many extra problems to work out.
They have chosen to go down the MLG root and have relatively (to average game length) huge pauses in between broadcasting games. I'm guessing most people want to see the games and not the "spectacle" of the event. But maybe that's just me and other euro's because it was through the night and it felt like they were just wasting time and dragging it out.
Day 1 was pretty much a disaster stream production wise, but then I'm a stickler for audio quality, although the in game video was very dark again as well (like during the couple of NASL broadcasts I watched during the league season). It seems they don't bother to properly calibrate their production monitors.
Good luck to NASL next season! Maybe HoN will run smoother for them (although even that decision is pretty suspect considering the amount of viewers LoL gets!)
I particularly strongly agree on the following poins:
- keeping schedule - sound balance between casters - shaky camera
and my subjective opinion would be also - more games, less breaks
but that is a matter of taste.
I think that NASL has been really great so far and I am really suprprised that they make elementary mistakes in production (already after TEN weeks of league broadcasts). The sound imbalance was extremely annoying, I was finally forced to put my headphones on, because I was trying to simltaneously hear gretorp and not wake up the whole house (2 am here) when Day9 speaked.
On a positive note, I absolutely loved IncontroL's funny little IdrA comments (and to be serious, the games I catched, were mostly amazing).
On July 09 2011 17:26 kalany wrote: You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
It is on NASL. The problems exhibited at the Grand Final have been characteristic of NASL all season long.
I'll start with the venue, since I knew this was going to be a problem just from seeing the pictures several days in advance.
You chose a big airy ballroom with seating for 720 people. That's honestly not a lot of people and you would've been much better served to use a more intimate setting such as a highschool or college auditorium. Reasons:
1. Anyone who's ever been to a club knows that it's better for the club to run out of space than to have vacancies. You say, "Oh, we'll fix that next time but hey everyone, we were overflowing with demand." Even if your crowd was full (it did not look like it was from pre/post-event photographs and first hand accounts), the ballroom was probably only 60-70% filled which just makes it look unpopular. 2. Price. Renting out an auditorium is going to be cheaper than an event center ball room. Your internet requirements are minimal, so that shouldn't be an issue. 3. Knowing your product. It seems like you're trying to emulate an OSL Grand Final in every way you can, but that's not the product you're selling. A smaller, more intimate venue feels better for the live audience, and it looks better at those types of numbers. It also reinforces the idea that this is a home grown product, the way DH Invitational looks. 4. Equipment (I'll touch more on it later.) A lot of it would already been in place and you wouldn't have to bring everything of your own. 5. Audience. Ontario, California is far from everything. No one actually wants to travel there. If you get a campus auditorium, you're not only more centrally located, but you're centrally located for your core audience- young people.
Now onto equipment. You have too much of it. Your event makes me think of a rich kid learning to play guitar, who buys an expensive Fender, amps and effects units before actually knowing how to pluck a string. That soundboard, the lights and the stage are overkill. 1. The soundboard doesn't fit your needs. I don't know who recommended it, but it was a terrible recommendation and you're obviously having a difficult time handling all of the features it provides. 2. Choose a better venue and you don't need that fuckton of lights. The amount you have is seriously absurd and again, it makes lighting harder to manage. 3. Screens. We know you had projector problems, but you still didn't set them up properly for the live viewers. You know this, so I won't touch on it that much but I'll bring up something you might not realize. You don't need 3 screens. 2 would be perfect, 1 would even be passable. The audience isn't spread out enough to really need that much screen coverage and it can actually be distracting from the single screen, the way that watching a panel of TVs at Best Buy is. Again, in a venue with theater style seating, this is even more true.
Staff problems. 1. Your audio people are not good at their job. This has been a problem all season long. They might be nice people, but they don't deserve anyone's slack. 2. Your cameramen are not good at their job. The job of a well-trained cameraman is not a difficult one. I assume yours aren't, so I hope they're at least volunteers. It's actually not the shakiness or losing focus that suggest that the most. It's that they don't know how to center their shots. You learn that on like the first day of class. 3. Your graphics people are not good at their jobs. I don't mean the CGI, that stuff is fine. But the NASL graphics/logo have always been ugly and that overlay needs to be scrapped. Again, I hope no one was paid to make it because that's just the lowest of the low of Photoshop know-how. A bar with a gradient filter, half cutting off the nice overlay that Blizzard built into the game. Who thought that would be a good idea, any why didn't anyone see that and say "turn that off"? 4. The set looks shoddy. The job of set design is an iffy one and I can understand if they were limited by time or resources, but it really just doesn't look good. On top of that, the design is tacky. I'll go back to an earlier point and say you need to tone it down. You don't need a huge stage like that. Give your people less to work on, and they'll do a better job on the fewer tasks they have. This was a problem during the NASL regular season as well. The set design was poor, with very bad colors/shades.
Overall these are a few of the things you need to fix, but these are all symptomatic of the bigger problems NASL has had all season long. You shouldn't have to learn all this stuff over again and go through growing pains. ESPORTS has been going on on a major scale for over 10 years now. There are staff from WCG/IEM/DH/CPL/ESEA/MLG/Blizzcon/ESL/etc. who already know how to put this type of production together. You should've hired them, at least to direct things, than do it entirely yourself. Just think about these two sets of events: NASL regular season/EG Master's Cup and NASL Grand Finals/Day9 Beta Countdown. When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse.
A lot of these aren't major issues and they don't detract from the game viewing experience, but they highlight a bigger and more serious issue: the director is not doing their job. Running things is a terrifically difficult job, but it falls on them to see the product and say, "that part isn't right, fix it." There have been so many little things continually not right about NASL, and no one noticed it until the fans pointed it out. And I don't mean big, complex things that are difficult to fix. I'm talking about stuff that could be fixed within an instant, and should have been noticed on the first pass through. That "noticer" has been absent. You need to hire a dedicated director, who simply understands how a finished viewing event should look.
EDIT: Also, your tournament format is not very fair to most of the players. I don't mean in a "omg extended series is dumb!" kind of way. I mean that people chocked up a lot of money to fly to the middle of nowhere, play two games and then be out. "But they had the chance to win $50,000!" doesn't matter. Either make it a double elimination bracket (then you set up an extra set of competitor computers backstage) OR make the ro16/ro8 online. Paying $3,000 for a plane ticket and being done in 15 minutes is an awful, souring experience.
On July 09 2011 17:17 Darkybald wrote: #1 Follow Sundance's example and fucking admit that you screwed up big time and offer the people their money back or give them free passes for next season. Retweeting the few positiv tweets of how you are improving and "this is just ok for your first try", is just pathetic.
Acknowledging you messed up will buy you a lot of credit with the viewership, indeed. Nerds are infuriated very easily, but if you keep your lips closed while it's obvious that you dun goofed, it'll make matters only worse, just throw some of the producers onstage, and let him explain that while some things indeed sucked, it's going to be oke. Assure your audience that you're working on making things right. This will make it far more easier for yourselves.
Please let us hear more from the audience! When players are being introduced I want to hear some noise and as I understand there was noise but none that any microphone really picked up on. I could only hear crickets when MC entered and did his fist pumping ceremony thing which made the whole scene rather awkward and dull instead of exciting.
On July 09 2011 16:32 Bengui wrote: So you're telling us there was never one occasion in the history of Starcraft where a player who was down 1-2 after the third game of a Bo5 came back to win 3-2 ? It's just basic logic : the more games you play, the less chances the inferior player has of creating an upset.
i understand this, but my argument is more like this: a progamer will never lose a bo3 and then say, "if this was a bo5, i would've definitely won." it's stupid to think that players who got eliminated in a bo3 deserve a bo5 just because they lost in a disappointing 0-2 manner. a bo3 in no way, shape or form is unfair to either competitor.
it seems really odd to me that they spend 3 months doing this huge group play setup to find the best players of each group, then let people fall out of the finals in 15 mins due to single elimination.
i want to watch this on my tv with a few friends tomorrow but i'm scared because it will make starcraft look so bad for them if there is still tons of issues (they have never watched it before on a professional level)
On July 09 2011 17:26 kalany wrote: You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
[...] When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse. [...]
This I find very important to note. As I said before, nobody actually expects a perfect product, but this isn't just not perfect, there are a large number of amateur-ish problems. There was enough time during the 10 weeks of NASL to hire somebody who knows what they're doing. You are charging the same/more than all the other (more professional) events, yet you do not deliver similarly. The only reason why people are defending this is that eSports as a business model is relatively young (at least outside of Korea), yet I don't think it's the right attitude to allow these problems to happen just because "well, it's the first time".
man, NASL did 1 BIG mistake: They didn't hire TL forum poster. It seems like they exactly know how things work and could solve all problems in the world.....
One of the big fault imo that's not yet posted is the map selection.
See all game 1 and 2 on the same map is so boring. Let the loser pick the map and random select the first map or choose the first map in some way for every match.
On July 09 2011 20:37 Skydancer wrote: One of the big fault imo that's not yet posted is the map selection.
See all game 1 and 2 on the same map is so boring. Let the loser pick the map and random select the first map or choose the first map in some way for every match.
I have to agree with this guy. Xelnaga, then cross fire got a little boring for all the matches in my humble opinion.
On July 09 2011 19:12 FinBenton wrote: So I have 25 dollar nasl pass, do I have to pay for the vods on this final?
It's 10$ for this weekend even if the nasl page says different.
Wait, what?
I'm pretty sure this isn't true. The $25 pass is for the entire season, there's no way they're charging extra to get access to the finals. There isn't even such a subscription option on the NASL site.
Edit to add: I can confirm that the season pass gives you access to the VODs. I'm watching them right now.
On July 09 2011 17:26 kalany wrote: You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
[...] When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse. [...]
This I find very important to note. As I said before, nobody actually expects a perfect product, but this isn't just not perfect, there are a large number of amateur-ish problems. There was enough time during the 10 weeks of NASL to hire somebody who knows what they're doing. You are charging the same/more than all the other (more professional) events, yet you do not deliver similarly. The only reason why people are defending this is that eSports as a business model is relatively young (at least outside of Korea), yet I don't think it's the right attitude to allow these problems to happen just because "well, it's the first time".
great post, I couldn't agree more there was slow progress made throughout the regular season but even by the end there was still a noticeable lack of polish. I hope they give their whole production gets a good look at in the offseason to work on improving the quality of their product.
Could we have an option in the poll for GSL groups in the Ro16? It's more exciting because every game matters and less time consuming than a full round robin! It also means there's never going to be a need for tiebreakers.
On July 09 2011 20:58 andytb wrote: Could we have an option in the poll for GSL groups in the Ro16? It's more exciting because every game matters and less time consuming than a full round robin! It also means there's never going to be a need for tiebreakers.
GSL groups only appears to take less time because GSL has 4 booths, so 2 players are always ready to go. It wouldn't work with 2 booths, it would take forever to play all the games with all the switching in and out
On July 09 2011 19:59 Hardigan wrote: man, NASL did 1 BIG mistake: They didn't hire TL forum poster. It seems like they exactly know how things work and could solve all problems in the world.....
Anybody who is moderately competent with modern technology could have done a better job, yes. There are probably a lot of savvy computer users on here who would not make such mistakes. I wouldn't really even call them amateur mistakes, it's more like a fundamental technological incompetence that prevents them from seeing problems and fixing them without constant complaints and someone holding their hand.
I know you were being sarcastic but I think you missed the mark and hit "unintentional irony".
The problem here is that NASL is concerned only with giving their friends employment, rather than actually hiring people who can do the job. In the regular season they even turned down offers from skilled people who were willing to do these jobs for free.
Name fail. Why are there so many koreans in the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Shouldnt this be called the Global Starcraft League??? errr wait. uhhh. Awkward.
On July 09 2011 21:12 RexFTW wrote: Name fail. Why are there so many koreans in the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Shouldnt this be called the Global Starcraft League??? errr wait. uhhh. Awkward.
GSL is the global starcraft league.
they currently have 3 foreigners in the main league (which is going to change soon, but it wasnt really 'worthy' of the name global starcraft league)
Its wierd but the name of the league shouldnt matter too much
I completely agree with people being against the tournament format. It can be such an awful feeling to come to the grand finals after 3 long grueling months, just to get eliminated in 15 minutes. While watching the finals I was thinking that they should have had the RO16 online then make the RO8 a BO5 at least so the players would have a better chance at making a comeback, and better games for the viewers without that long schedule that they had today.
Looking at the NASL production from a viewpoint of having some experience in event production, the entire thing makes me feel kind of sad. I can see the NASL guys doing the same kinds of mistakes people with lack of experience always do.
I do not wish to rip into the guys doing it, because I know they are in over their heads and they are mostly putting out fires at this point and don't need people to lay into them, so I will try to give some constructive feedback instead.
First of all, set design for video and stage design are two different beasts. The stage looks quite good from a stage design viewpoint. I'm sure it looks good in person. However, it does not work all that well as a tv set. The pure black backdrop makes it harder to get good shots.
Which brings us to the point of camera angles. The main cameras were mounted way too far away, an they were mounted on a wobbly platform. The end result is that the cameras shook every time someone walked by, leading to a seasick impression much of the time. The alternate side-ways camera angle was nice as an effect, but should not be overused.
The cameras also suffered from exposure and white balance issues. Due to the black background, it is easy to overexpose the image unless you control the exposure manually. Ditto the tungstedn WB stage lights need to be compensated for as well, lest you end up with the commentators looking oddly like the cast from Jersey Shore.
The interviews should have been filmed as close as possible, or off on a different set (e.g. a corner with a sofa). The far-away camera, combined with the tri of interviewer/interviewee/interpreter not hitting their marks, led to an impression of a high school play being filmed with a camcorder, with the cameraman desperately trying to pan around to fix what is a problem with blocking.
Then there's the audio. The audio production suffered from a multitude of issues. Ground loops plagued the audio the entire day. The caster mics sounding to me like they were out of phase with each others (i.e. one of them had flipped polarity), which lead to comb filtering effects and sudden volume fades. This luckily got fixed during the day. For the interviews, you would like one mic per person - you do not want mics to be passed around. Finally, it was fairly obvious that there was no compression being used.
Now, my strength is really in audio production, and it saddens me to notice these issues. Ground loops, phase problems and things like compression are things that are easy to set up, easy to fix and easy to test for if you have the experience. However, you need to do all of that beforehand. If you end up trying to find ground loops while the show is un, you are in a very uncomfortable position as an audio engineer.
The final impression I got was that the production was done by a group of talented amateurs/volunteers who were in over their heads. Having experienced staff on hand would have helped tons. Again, this is just my humble impression: I shall not presume to know what the actual situation was like.
Here's hoping the issued get fixed, and that the next finals will be a stellar production.
On July 09 2011 21:12 RexFTW wrote: Name fail. Why are there so many koreans in the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Shouldnt this be called the Global Starcraft League??? errr wait. uhhh. Awkward.
This complaint has gotta be one of the most pointless things I see posted over and over. Stop nitpicking you're acting like one of those people tastosis mock all the time. I don't have a problem with people criticizing but goddamn try to pick something that actually matters instead of complaining about semantics.
Now onto my thoughts about NASL.
I feel like all their efforts are completely misguided. They put so much effort into making ridiculously long player introductions but then they fail at getting the basics right. And I'm not even talking about the the technical issues such as the sound etc, although those are bad enough, hardware failure(If I'm to believe the excuses) can happen. I'm talking about the general crummyness and cheap feeling you get when watching such as the delays in sound when transitioning from stage to the game, forgetting to enforce setting profiles to busy, poor choice or lack of transition music, awkward breaks, cheap looking boothes/stage etc. Watching it just feels very lackluster compared to even small online tournaments.
I have a problem with their schedule, maybe such a spread out schedule would work if they had other events people could watch inbetween the games, but when they the tournament is ONLY starcraft 2, what the hell are people meant to do for 30 mins to an hour between every game??? I really feel sorry for the people who payed to come watch, I'd probably have got bored and left after the 2nd match. I also sympathize with the casters who were forced to awkwardly fill time over and over again, they did their best and are actually probably the only reason the event is not an absolute disaster, just rather disappointing.
I hope NASL forgets about trying to be fancy and different from the other leagues with all the players stories and such stuff for now. Instead they need to focus on being competent first.
The idea of hype videos is good in theory, but don't include the 3(?) month old application videos (while some are good, others were just embarrassing). Also, when watching the in-game footage from NASL group stages it became very apparent how biased Inc/Gretorp were; in the hype videos for the korean players you hardly ever heard their names mentioned, the focus was solely on their (non-korean) opponent. This was just a pet peeve, but at some point my brain thought I was watching an introduction video for Grubby instead of the actual finalist. Make the videos shorter, 2-3 minutes max, and perhaps add a pre-finals interview done on location. Anything but the application videos really. ^_^
2nd point, map choices. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by forcing the same fixed map order for every set, but who are you trying to please? The veteran viewers like me will all be like "why isn't it Loser picks? I'm bored of these maps damnit." and people new to SC2 would hopefully appreciate the event more if they got some variety and got to see completely different maps. I only watched the first 4 matches (up to Hasu vs Moon) - and they were all 2-0's featuring only 2-player maps, XNC and Crossfire. Yay.
Finally those booths scare me. I would not be comfortable in such a confined space, it just looks like they should be waaaaay bigger.
The stream quality was amazing, consistent and stable.
I for one enjoyed the extended recapping for each of the players. It reminded me of some of the epic moments of the group stages and it felt honest.
Again, I appreciate they did a Bo3 format so the fans were guaranteed to see every match. With the delays and problems, having an extremely tight schedule would have caused chaos.
-'s
Apart from the obvious improvements they need to make on the production side, the matches should have been all started on a map like Terminus or Shakuras and then been loser's choice from that point onwards.
Next time NASL attempts a LAN, the schedule needs to be a lot fuller.
If you have delays or problems, get a spokesperson to communicate with the fans, even if it is " no idea whats wrong lol".
The booths just look terrible. Looks like they need to fire their carpenter.
Pressure is on now though to have a flawless day today though, otherwise Season 2 is going to be a huge uphill struggle for these guys.
I'm a chill enough person not to get angered by a shaking camera or an echo.
Please bare in mind though, I was a NASL fan from the start when it was "cool" to just hate on them.
- map veto should be done the way ESL does it: players take turns vetoing one map, then when the x maps for the BOx are left they take turns selecting the map order. Fairest system, please no loser's choice it sucks, especially bo3
- graphic setting were totally horrible imo, too dark and just weird. Just look how Crossfire looks like with Dreamhack settings (imo the best graphic settings I have seen so far) in this VOD and compare that to the horrible look Crossfire had yesterday...
Is this where we're supposed to post feedback about NASL?
Anyway, I guess most things about sound/camera shakiness/observing problems already been covered, I just wanna add something about someelse else where NASL seems to receive a good amount of complaints: the schedule. I dont really see the problem with it. The did 8 matches in 12h, or actually 8 matches in 10h with a 2h delay at the start (which is a separate problem). I really dont see the problem with 8 matches in 10h, it seems normal or even better than normal.
-MLG had so many more games going and two streams (!!), yet there were always lots of commercials, sometimes same game on both streams or just crowd shots during pauses. Dont have any stats on how many games/hour, but even if it was better it certainly wasnt with much.
-Dreamhack, which seems to get a lot of credit for the way they run the tourny without delay, has always had 1game/hour schedule. With maybe a lunch break in between some game, which NASL also had. So DH would probably run 8 matches in ~9h. NASL did in 10. Problem?
NASL actually had filler stuff. You can argue about whether it was fun or not, and maybe the player highlight videos were a little too long, but would you rather have watches the crowd idle in 10min over those videos? I think not. Also remember that these kind of intros "gave people nerd chills" during TSL when they had similar for Naniwa/Thorzain.
Personally I think these intros were good, possible a tad too long, but if the alternative is commercials or crowd shots, please go ahead with those intros. And the fact that they show all 8 games rather than skipping games for schedule reasons is something I think they should have credit for, not being flamed for.
On July 09 2011 22:11 DisaFear wrote: Is it only Americans or something that get ads? I was watching for free and didn't get ads...or did I not notice them lol
They were actually part of the video feed so everyone got them; you just didn't notice apparently. That is on top of Justin.tv ads (which may not be given to Australians), so it's understandable why people are angry -- especially if they paid for "no-ads" which really ended up meaning half-ads.
On July 09 2011 22:11 DisaFear wrote: Is it only Americans or something that get ads? I was watching for free and didn't get ads...or did I not notice them lol
They were actually part of the video feed so everyone got them; you just didn't notice apparently. That is on top of Justin.tv ads (which may not be given to Australians), so it's understandable why people are angry -- especially if they paid for "no-ads" which really ended up meaning half-ads.
I never get justin.tv ads when I watch streams. I see players type in that commercial thing, never shows up
Ok, some of these criticisms make sense and some don't. The problem is that once there are enough legit problems to make the tone in the live report thread negative, everyone just gets pissed off about every little possible issue. Sound problems were substantial. The delays were definitely annoying. Commercials for people who paid not to have them is pretty dumb. Complain about that. I'm totally with you.
But we're really going to complain about the player booths having a bland external design? Really? Until very recently no foreign tournaments had player booths of any kind. This is just dumb. Picking a random group from GSL, I checked the VODs and the total time to watch 5 games, not including the commercial breaks in the live stream is 90 minutes. Add in commercial breaks and its substantially worse. NASL is too slow, yes, but not by as much as people are making it out to be.
Everyone is angry about Ro16 being best of 3? GSL used Bo3 for code S Ro16 and people weren't that upset. People fly to Korea for a single-elimination Bo3 qualifier and lose in the first round and no one's that upset. The MLG code A-qualified people will fly to Korea for a single-elimination Bo3 tournament. It's not optimal, sure, but it's really not the end of the world. Would round robin groups of 4 with Bo3 matches be better? Of course, but it's three times as many games, and means either lots wouldn't get casted or the event would be an extra day. Obviously the viewers would be fine with that, but it means substantially more expenses for them.
Things like the camera filters being slightly off and so forth are perfectly good things to say as constructive criticism. But those are the sort of issues that most of the time, watching most things, you wouldn't pay attention to.
Before getting really pissed off, just think - would this same error have made me this upset if GSL did it? Sometimes the answer really is yes, but sometimes it's just a bandwagon of complaining.
On July 09 2011 19:59 Hardigan wrote: man, NASL did 1 BIG mistake: They didn't hire TL forum poster. It seems like they exactly know how things work and could solve all problems in the world.....
Looks like it, plenty of tl posters actually have jobs.
On July 09 2011 21:25 kmh wrote: Looking at the NASL production from a viewpoint of having some experience in event production, the entire thing makes me feel kind of sad. I can see the NASL guys doing the same kinds of mistakes people with lack of experience always do.
I do not wish to rip into the guys doing it, because I know they are in over their heads and they are mostly putting out fires at this point and don't need people to lay into them, so I will try to give some constructive feedback instead.
First of all, set design for video and stage design are two different beasts. The stage looks quite good from a stage design viewpoint. I'm sure it looks good in person. However, it does not work all that well as a tv set. The pure black backdrop makes it harder to get good shots.
Which brings us to the point of camera angles. The main cameras were mounted way too far away, an they were mounted on a wobbly platform. The end result is that the cameras shook every time someone walked by, leading to a seasick impression much of the time. The alternate side-ways camera angle was nice as an effect, but should not be overused.
The cameras also suffered from exposure and white balance issues. Due to the black background, it is easy to overexpose the image unless you control the exposure manually. Ditto the tungstedn WB stage lights need to be compensated for as well, lest you end up with the commentators looking oddly like the cast from Jersey Shore.
The interviews should have been filmed as close as possible, or off on a different set (e.g. a corner with a sofa). The far-away camera, combined with the tri of interviewer/interviewee/interpreter not hitting their marks, led to an impression of a high school play being filmed with a camcorder, with the cameraman desperately trying to pan around to fix what is a problem with blocking.
Then there's the audio. The audio production suffered from a multitude of issues. Ground loops plagued the audio the entire day. The caster mics sounding to me like they were out of phase with each others (i.e. one of them had flipped polarity), which lead to comb filtering effects and sudden volume fades. This luckily got fixed during the day. For the interviews, you would like one mic per person - you do not want mics to be passed around. Finally, it was fairly obvious that there was no compression being used.
Now, my strength is really in audio production, and it saddens me to notice these issues. Ground loops, phase problems and things like compression are things that are easy to set up, easy to fix and easy to test for if you have the experience. However, you need to do all of that beforehand. If you end up trying to find ground loops while the show is un, you are in a very uncomfortable position as an audio engineer.
The final impression I got was that the production was done by a group of talented amateurs/volunteers who were in over their heads. Having experienced staff on hand would have helped tons. Again, this is just my humble impression: I shall not presume to know what the actual situation was like.
Here's hoping the issued get fixed, and that the next finals will be a stellar production.
Second half of the event was very enjoyable but man, have them setup while the 20 minutes of video are playing. There is no reason to start fixing driver issues _after_ that.
I remember when we DIDN'T EVEN HAVE STREAMS, JUST LIVE REPORTS. and people are raging about the sound quality of a fucking epic live event that obviously did their best to accommodate the tens of thousands of viewers?
At one point I would brag about the superiority of the Starcraft community to my friends. We used to be a bastion of excellence... now all I see is the immaturity and false sense of entitlement of spoiled children who grew up with silver spoons under their metaphorical tongues.
I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but honestly the thing that brought down the level of this event the most for me, were the hordes of kiddies complaining about minor annoyances. It isn't just this event either. MLG, TSL, and GSL are all plagued in one way or another by this bullshit.
Boring same maps. Crap format. Laughable sound and camera. Cheap look. Awful production. Get rid of inc and gretorp and let the actual casters cast.
It might be there "first time" but the nasl in a whole has been pretty dire since it started imo, why they didn't just employ professionals who actually seem to have a clue is beyond me. And seriously what's with the "a lot of koreans in the nasl" thing? lets face it it would be an even worse tournament if it was full of mediocre NA players.
On July 09 2011 23:09 Butigroove wrote: When did teamliquid become a huge bitchfest?
I remember when we DIDN'T EVEN HAVE STREAMS, JUST LIVE REPORTS. and people are raging about the sound quality of a fucking epic live event that obviously did their best to accommodate the tens of thousands of viewers?
At one point I would brag about the superiority of the Starcraft community to my friends. We used to be a bastion of excellence... now all I see is the immaturity and false sense of entitlement of spoiled children who grew up with silver spoons under their metaphorical tongues.
I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but honestly the thing that brought down the level of this event the most for me, were the hordes of kiddies complaining about minor annoyances. It isn't just this event either. MLG, TSL, and GSL are all plagued in one way or another by this bullshit.
I really really hate this "argument". "Because 2000 years ago there were no computers and people were starving you should really be happy about anything today!"... Critism is legit. And in this thread there is very very constructive and reasonable critics like from jibba and kmh. And if you advertise the shit out of a league and hype those finals through the roof and want attract more viewers the expectations are naturally growing. They are trying to deliver a product that obbviously was 1-2 steppes above their capability. If they would have said beforehand that they are unsure if they can set up something big like this and we all should see this as a test run for their first big event there would be way less bitching but then they would have had a problem to charge money for this.
I love everything they did ! awesome event, and awesome casters all around. for sure some small issues, but still got to watch some awesome starcraft, and i could eat my dinner and tug in the wife without missing a beat, didnt have to sit tight for 5 hours strait while they flash names games and stuff into my head, awesome event. Had me a bit conserned as to the 2 hours i missed at start that cut off games like boxer mc, and so on, but my hd pass was worth it, and i can just watch later on anyways.
On July 09 2011 23:09 Butigroove wrote: When did teamliquid become a huge bitchfest?
I remember when we DIDN'T EVEN HAVE STREAMS, JUST LIVE REPORTS. and people are raging about the sound quality of a fucking epic live event that obviously did their best to accommodate the tens of thousands of viewers?
At one point I would brag about the superiority of the Starcraft community to my friends. We used to be a bastion of excellence... now all I see is the immaturity and false sense of entitlement of spoiled children who grew up with silver spoons under their metaphorical tongues.
I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but honestly the thing that brought down the level of this event the most for me, were the hordes of kiddies complaining about minor annoyances. It isn't just this event either. MLG, TSL, and GSL are all plagued in one way or another by this bullshit.
I really really hate this "argument". "Because 2000 years ago there were no computers and people were starving you should really be happy about anything today!"... Critism is legit. And in this thread there is very very constructive and reasonable critics like from jibba and kmh. And if you advertise the shit out of a league and hype those finals through the roof and want attract more viewers the expectations are naturally growing. They are trying to deliver a product that obbviously was 1-2 steppes above their capability. If they would have said beforehand that they are unsure if they can set up something big like this and we all should see this as a test run for their first big event there would be way less bitching but then they would have had a problem to charge money for this.
I don't know why I was thinking about this as I slept...
Lower the Lights. Really.
Makes it more of a performance... lights on stage is okay. Think of SPL... of MLG... or hell, of any theatrical performance. You have to lower the lights.
Looked like you guys were playing in a fuckin' hospital. It's overly sterile and destroys the ambiance I think... makes it look like you are at work.
First of all I think that NASL started as a league that wanted to make everything better than all the other leagues, for instance by having those divisions so that consistent play got rewarded instead of preparing snipe builds to make it out of the group stage and then prepare for a BoX.
NASL to me seemed like a huge experiment in the name of esports - with a lot of dedication and love for SC2 and I appreciate that a lot.
That sad thing is just that with so much money on the line and those huge names playing, people just expected more, especially after MLG, DH and HSC3 which were all great events.
Most things that need improvement have already been mentioned. I would like to talk a bit about the format.
A lot of people critisized that the goal to reward consistent play got screwed by that single elimination format and I agree with those people. But I would like to start a bit earlier and talk about the play-offs. So if I am not mistaken, the first ranked player of each division was automatically qualified for the Grand Finals. That is totally alright. But to me it seems that the play off format was again another chance for those who didnt perform well enough in the league to still get to the finals.
Take HasuObs for instance. I really like this guy a lot and I always cheer for him and I was happy for him to make it to Ontario. But if you look at his path to the finals, you will notice that he fnished 5th in his division. The one player he won against to get a seed in the finals was ACE, who played very well and consistent throughout the league just to get eliminated in a Bo3 against HasuObs. And guess what: ACE finished 3rd in Hasu's group. He was more consistent over those 9 weeks and probably the overall better player. But HasuObs advanced. Is that fair? Does it reward consistence? I don't think it does. Naniwa lost to Darkforce and didn't make it to the finals, basically a 3rd placed player lost against a 5th placed player in a Bo3. And there are some more examples of this. I mean it is okay, but why do you actually let those players play for 9 weeks to see who is best in their division and then let everybody from rank 2 to rank 6 get a shot at the finals?
The single elimination in the finals kills the intention to figure out the overall best - agreed, but the play offs already played their part in this too.
Format - Some of the arguments made on this subject here are plain ridiculous. Players flew in from Europe and Korea, after besting dozens of other pros, just to be knocked out in the first round? Inconvenient, if nothing else. Some are arguing they played their best and it wasn't good enough. That is probably true. "3 rounds is enough to determine which player is better". I'm not denying that. But that's not what eSports is about. It really isn't. "People are just complaining because their favourite player lost". They should be complaining. Their favourite player flies thousands of kilometers to the grand finals of this huge tournament, just to be knocked out instantly. Fans are the people who enable these kinds of events. Fans are the reason big companies show growing interest to eSports events. Fans are the people buying the high quality stream tickets. Thinking that this tournament is just about deciding who to give the prize money to ... well it makes no sense.
Audio - Obviously a huge let down. If there was anything positive, I loved the audience screaming and applauding, especially when there were so many banelings. Day[9] likes shouting, to get himself and the audience pumped up, and there's nothing wrong with that, but the lack of sound level limiters did kill my ears. Not gonna delve any deeper than that.
Interviews - As most of them were with Korean players with a translator they weren't exactly fluid. The questions asked by the interviewers were kinda ok, though they could definitely be improved. If the interviewers have to be pretty faces (I'm not saying that's a bad thing), there should at least be someone to prepare the questions for them.
Time wasting - I'd watch hype videos twice that long if the players could get their booths and settings all done during them, not after them. Seriously though, even LosirA could get his stuff ready during one of those videos. Also, playing Nerd Alert songs or just any other entertaining and Starcraft related from Youtube during technical difficulties or major breaks IS COOL. Dreamhack did it. Do it.
Casters and observer - Observing was sloppy. Gretorp and Incontrol are yelling their lungs out when a Command Center is almost about to go down, but the viewers can't see the HP bar? It's almost as if it's exciting, but then again, it isn't. I think all the casters are very good at their job. BUT. Tastosis flew out from Korea, and Day[9] is there too, being his own awesome self, why not have them do more casting? The FANS go crazy for Dan, Nick and Sean. The fans.
after listening to some of the music during breaks.
If you don't recognize the music, you might wanna replay Starcraft and Broodwar campaigns. I loved it - very appropriate for the event. Far better than some licensed radio pop that you would expect from these kind of tournaments.
That said, there's obviously a lot NASL needs to do to improve, but I won't repeat what everyone before me has said, even though their points are spot on. I would like to balance in that all the negativity here is because the fans are passionate about NASL and want it to succeed - if we didn't, we wouldn't care enough to flame.
But yea. Keep some backup solutions in the future in case things go tits-up. Keep the crowd and viewers entertained while you get the bugs ironed out.
On July 09 2011 23:09 Butigroove wrote: When did teamliquid become a huge bitchfest?
I remember when we DIDN'T EVEN HAVE STREAMS, JUST LIVE REPORTS. and people are raging about the sound quality of a fucking epic live event that obviously did their best to accommodate the tens of thousands of viewers?
At one point I would brag about the superiority of the Starcraft community to my friends. We used to be a bastion of excellence... now all I see is the immaturity and false sense of entitlement of spoiled children who grew up with silver spoons under their metaphorical tongues.
I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but honestly the thing that brought down the level of this event the most for me, were the hordes of kiddies complaining about minor annoyances. It isn't just this event either. MLG, TSL, and GSL are all plagued in one way or another by this bullshit.
I really really hate this "argument". "Because 2000 years ago there were no computers and people were starving you should really be happy about anything today!"... Critism is legit. And in this thread there is very very constructive and reasonable critics like from jibba and kmh. And if you advertise the shit out of a league and hype those finals through the roof and want attract more viewers the expectations are naturally growing. They are trying to deliver a product that obbviously was 1-2 steppes above their capability. If they would have said beforehand that they are unsure if they can set up something big like this and we all should see this as a test run for their first big event there would be way less bitching but then they would have had a problem to charge money for this.
the stream [beyond the audio issue] was fine for me at all times i streamed it from 11pm uk time, to when the last gg of mc/boxer i thought that it was nicely done, in terms of how it was setup atleast
a best of 5 would have been nicer though, and take up more time rather than the fillers the fillers were my main gripe, i think there was more filler than gameplay, or it felt like it the booths did kind of look like prison cells though
also why did each player come in and setup after their videos? so we get 20 min of filler video then we wait for them to get comfortable? it would be better to introduce them in person, then show their road to the finals as they get settled in
On July 09 2011 23:09 Butigroove wrote: When did teamliquid become a huge bitchfest?
I remember when we DIDN'T EVEN HAVE STREAMS, JUST LIVE REPORTS. and people are raging about the sound quality of a fucking epic live event that obviously did their best to accommodate the tens of thousands of viewers?
At one point I would brag about the superiority of the Starcraft community to my friends. We used to be a bastion of excellence... now all I see is the immaturity and false sense of entitlement of spoiled children who grew up with silver spoons under their metaphorical tongues.
I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but honestly the thing that brought down the level of this event the most for me, were the hordes of kiddies complaining about minor annoyances. It isn't just this event either. MLG, TSL, and GSL are all plagued in one way or another by this bullshit.
I really really hate this "argument". "Because 2000 years ago there were no computers and people were starving you should really be happy about anything today!"... Critism is legit. And in this thread there is very very constructive and reasonable critics like from jibba and kmh. And if you advertise the shit out of a league and hype those finals through the roof and want attract more viewers the expectations are naturally growing. They are trying to deliver a product that obbviously was 1-2 steppes above their capability. If they would have said beforehand that they are unsure if they can set up something big like this and we all should see this as a test run for their first big event there would be way less bitching but then they would have had a problem to charge money for this.
@tooPrime - wow great video. That video is amazingly relevant. I really wonder how many of these criticizers have ever organized (or accomplished) anything in their life. If I had to guess, 99% of negative nancies here have 0 experience in the matter. For those that do, they know that with events anything can/will happen. NASL did a solid job here and apart from the small hiccup with the sound during MC's interview, I really did not have any complaints for Day1.
Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
I swear there are people on the internet who exist solely to post this tired video
lol. First time I ever post that video in my life and I get this guy but I also get another guy who hasn't seen it before and loves it.
I willing to give NASL the benefit of the doubt by the way. I think people forget you couldn't even watch Dallas and half of the best games weren't even shown. Even the GSTL takes FOREVER if you watch it live. Some of the qq is legit but others (booth isn't pretty enough! Tastosis can't live with me and be my best friend) not so much.
On July 09 2011 23:09 Butigroove wrote: When did teamliquid become a huge bitchfest?
I remember when we DIDN'T EVEN HAVE STREAMS, JUST LIVE REPORTS. and people are raging about the sound quality of a fucking epic live event that obviously did their best to accommodate the tens of thousands of viewers?
At one point I would brag about the superiority of the Starcraft community to my friends. We used to be a bastion of excellence... now all I see is the immaturity and false sense of entitlement of spoiled children who grew up with silver spoons under their metaphorical tongues.
I'm sorry if this doesn't belong in this thread, but honestly the thing that brought down the level of this event the most for me, were the hordes of kiddies complaining about minor annoyances. It isn't just this event either. MLG, TSL, and GSL are all plagued in one way or another by this bullshit.
I really really hate this "argument". "Because 2000 years ago there were no computers and people were starving you should really be happy about anything today!"... Critism is legit. And in this thread there is very very constructive and reasonable critics like from jibba and kmh. And if you advertise the shit out of a league and hype those finals through the roof and want attract more viewers the expectations are naturally growing. They are trying to deliver a product that obbviously was 1-2 steppes above their capability. If they would have said beforehand that they are unsure if they can set up something big like this and we all should see this as a test run for their first big event there would be way less bitching but then they would have had a problem to charge money for this.
I swear there are people on the internet who exist solely to post this tired video
Humanity does not progress by being "happy" with what you've got. On the contrary. By being critical you force progress. ^^
I will not bash to much on the NASL and most of my complaints have been comprehensively covered in this here thread.
I will quote this paragraph because i have had the same impression ever since the league was announced:
On July 09 2011 21:11 Gurblechev wrote:The problem here is that NASL is concerned only with giving their friends employment, rather than actually hiring people who can do the job. In the regular season they even turned down offers from skilled people who were willing to do these jobs for free.
I do not doubt the good intentions of the people involved, i question their quality and the managements objectivity in employing the staff.
NASL needs (i know, i'm an internet know it all^^) to make drastic changes in it's staff and i do not think that will happen.
What does the tree icon (or w/e it is) the OP has mean? o0
ontopic: yeh it wasn't the best first day ever, but atleast they are trying it. They don't have as much employees as MLG and Dreamhack and it's their first time. I will still support them and I'm season 2 and the rest of the finals will be awesome.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The reason was because each matchup had a set start time so had to wait till that time. This was all something to make it better for the players- the whole, they know when they play so dont have to worry about missing games and being punished etc- like at mlg.
Im also quite suprise everyone is complaining about booths. They had them thats all they needed. I was worried they might not have them at all. it wasn't untill the last MLG and 2 dreamhacks ago that either of them had booths. The big proplem people have with them seems to be that they don't look cool enough. Well in season 2 maybe they will be covered with sponsor logos once they see that people are watching this and it's worth their money. Or maybe people will crap all over it no sponsors will turn up and we will have less starcraft with the top players korean and foreign competing together
Groups are better, but they take more time. Even if it seemed in Day 1 that there was plenty of unused time, I'm sure it was full of organizational efforts, which the people involved are still not experienced enough to streamline better. Give them some more time, and after they improve and speed it up, maybe they could make it with groups and a lot more games, with no gaps between broadcasting them. That would be ideal. I'm still glad enough, as it was. And for one, I enjoyed the detailed retrospection video clips; props to the editors who assembled them - must have been quite a lot of work to do for all the players.
First major LAN had a ton of mistakes on the first day, I think everyone here is spoiled from MLG CBus and can't just understand that even with all the prep leading into an event, shit can and will go wrong. I personally could care less about the wait, Friday nights are usually my friends and I hanging out playing video games and talking about random things that come up. Either way, I'm going to wait the next two days out before I am overly critical and damning of NASL as a whole. I hope some of the problems are worked out and NASL Finals can get back on track today.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
like others said already.. use those loooooong player highlight videos to fill the downtime. i really dont get why the players start to set up in the booths after those vids -.-
I think NASL did a pretty decent job, if you compare it to the first live events of other tourneys. They obviously did mistakes and the first ~4h were pretty bad, but I think they learned and will learn a lot because of this, so I'm looking forward to the next two NASL days and especially the season 2 finals, which will hopefully show NASL's true potential and if they learned their lesson.
Some criticism seem indeed a bit too harsh, however people must understand that it's for the sake of entertainment. We cannot content ourselves with low quality, or else mediocrity will become standard. And I'm not talking only about NASL.
Don't repeat maps over and over and over. I mean, it was a pain to see day after day 5 games on the very same maps, and the maps would hardly vary(since they followed a pattern) and that really is tiring. Then on the Ro16, everyone would play the same maps, and that was boring.
Either make everyone play the same map and let the loser's pick the next map(with vetos, MLG style) or make all the maps random(with vetos, GSL style). This pattern-like map pool is too annoying.
<edit> By the way, I won't talk about the sound since that's kinda obvious, but the tournament itself was amazing, keep it up!
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
like others said already.. use those loooooong player highlight videos to fill the downtime. i really dont get why the players start to set up in the booths after those vids -.-
^ so they can stream longer, so they make more money off it.
It's a douche move and I'm surprised people defend it.
It's simply pathetic when we have hours of waiting only to see a player like ret or whitera get roflstomped in a less than 15 min series.
and then after the games ANOTHER 70 mins of waiting before we proceed, hurray.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
like others said already.. use those loooooong player highlight videos to fill the downtime. i really dont get why the players start to set up in the booths after those vids -.-
Exactly this. From what I saw early in the cast (first couple matches that were played, I had to go for the last part), the format was: casters mentioning players -> long highlight videos -> players get called on stage -> players set up while casters re-introduce the players -> games. This could easily be casters mention players (but this could be folded into next bit) -> Players get called to stage by the host -> players set up while long highlight videos are played and any extra time is casters talking -> games.
All my other criticisms/feedback have already been mentioned in the thread and largely have to do with the production and format.
The thing that makes me the saddest is that NASL may have ruined this sort of thing forever. How do you get sponsors when the production value took an entire season to reach the level of "passable" and the grand finals, lets be honest, is probably one of the worst events in years. Not even to mention all of the bizarre decisions like having 420p available for free for the majority of the season then removing it. Xeris is the lead on fnatic. He has been to MLG. So has Gretorp and Incontrol. Yet it would appear that they learned nothing while they were there.
NASL had a lot of responsibility on their shoulders. They asked us to put their trust in them and make them into what they wanted to be, a starleage, and they have continually failed to deliver. In all likelyhood, this is just going to scare away anyone with thoughts of running a league like this in the future, even if they could do a better job of it. Esports dont recover from stuff like this.
Hey guys, I missed the later half of yesterday > Right side of the brackets. Is there any way to catch up on those before the RO8 - RO4 starts today? I can't find the vods on nasl.tv!
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
That's not what he said
If you have four booths, you set up on the new PCs while the game is going on
The only time you can't really do that is if you don't know who will be in the next game (dual tournament format, teamleagues)
NASL is neither of these
MLG's downtime is caused by their desire to stream specific matches combined with the uncertainty of when the player's previous match will end. So if one player is still in game on their previous set, they delay the broadcast. You can't set up the PC if the player is in the middle of another game, but your players are waiting around in the warmup area.
As i paid for NASL I want to mention a thing that really bother me. The overall aesthetic quality of this event is like the worst thing i've seen in a long time. Depressing black curtains, ugly booths, very bad lighting (everyone litleraly is looking like a zombie), poor filming skills (terrible terrible framing), ugly NASL logos and artwork...and some minor things like the way most of the NASL members are dressed. When i compare with OSL,MSL,GSL where koreans since the begining of times are polishing everything and really take care of the aesthetic aspect of their events, it really makes the difference, it is really important for viewers, it's a show afterall.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
if this is how the all the korean leagues do it then why can't you? no one suggested you roll the booths out on stage. i seriously can't believe you would shoot down every single configuration except for the one GSL uses
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
While we are at this. Maps should be able to be eliminated, and have a losers pick afterwards. Whats the point of playing all the games on the same map. Also why is Ro8 only Bo3?
It was probably Xeris again who takes these amateur decisions. In the NASL Open tournament everyone played very outdated versions of the maps. When I asked him why are we playing the ladder versions of Shattered/Meta, he replied: "They're the most common forms of the map. #_# ". Everyone should take a look at the tournaments who had Xeris behind them: decent prizes but awful organization. This guy is a total amateur and I have no clue why he's still part of eSports.
If this is true, its really sad.
THe worst part is the tournament format its really really bad and tbh this guy is right its kinda amateur.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
Well i dont think you guys are running that low on money according to the prize pool ? lol. Or you invest all your money in the price pool instead of the production aswell ?
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
While we are at this. Maps should be able to be eliminated, and have a losers pick afterwards. Whats the point of playing all the games on the same map. Also why is Ro8 only Bo3?
It was probably Xeris again who takes these amateur decisions. In the NASL Open tournament everyone played very outdated versions of the maps. When I asked him why are we playing the ladder versions of Shattered/Meta, he replied: "They're the most common forms of the map. #_# ". Everyone should take a look at the tournaments who had Xeris behind them: decent prizes but awful organization. This guy is a total amateur and I have no clue why he's still part of eSports.
If this is true, its really sad.
THe worst part is the tournament format its really really bad and tbh this guy is right its kinda amateur.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
All of this critism while slightly annoying isn't the problem at the moment. The sound issues were so awful I had to not watch for about 6 hours of it and came back around darkforce. The tournament is good the games are ok the casters are great crowd is entusiastic. the sound engineer you have sucks or you need to get one because there was so much imbalance it made me think NASL was run by collosi I want to believe this shit will stop happening but as a hundred other people have said. it's still happening
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
What I would envision (and what I believe the other person would envision) is two sets of booths, both on the same main stage, the same way that GSL has four booths on their set. While players are playing in one booth, the players in the next match set up in the other set of booths. From a live standpoint, it would be slightly distracting, I guess, with other players walking into the other booths while the game is going on, but that's only very slight and even for the live audience I think it would be massively outweighed by not having to wait for player setup. (And for those watching the stream, it would basically be seamless.)
On July 10 2011 00:28 Demonace34 wrote: First major LAN had a ton of mistakes on the first day, I think everyone here is spoiled from MLG CBus and can't just understand that even with all the prep leading into an event, shit can and will go wrong.
Spoiled by MLG for sure. And DH, and HSC, and GSL, and TSL.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
While we are at this. Maps should be able to be eliminated, and have a losers pick afterwards. Whats the point of playing all the games on the same map. Also why is Ro8 only Bo3?
It was probably Xeris again who takes these amateur decisions. In the NASL Open tournament everyone played very outdated versions of the maps. When I asked him why are we playing the ladder versions of Shattered/Meta, he replied: "They're the most common forms of the map. #_# ". Everyone should take a look at the tournaments who had Xeris behind them: decent prizes but awful organization. This guy is a total amateur and I have no clue why he's still part of eSports.
If this is true, its really sad.
THe worst part is the tournament format its really really bad and tbh this guy is right its kinda amateur.
Uh, that's just wrong lol.
Whats wrong ? explain pls Or do you think the single elimination / the maps are alright?
It makes me sad that TL does not understand the concept of a league with playoffs. The point of a 9 week regular season is to establish seeds and be like 'round robin group play.' Now it is time to play off. Bo3 is much too short. I would vote baseball/hockey/basketball style best of 7 but that's not an option.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
I'm planning to drive about an hour with a friend to the finals, leaving in about 20 minutes and super excited! Just wondering, is there any way we can buy a 1 day pass for cheaper than the 3 day/25$? Say 10$? Cause we'll only be out there for today and we missed a day anyways
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
While we are at this. Maps should be able to be eliminated, and have a losers pick afterwards. Whats the point of playing all the games on the same map. Also why is Ro8 only Bo3?
It was probably Xeris again who takes these amateur decisions. In the NASL Open tournament everyone played very outdated versions of the maps. When I asked him why are we playing the ladder versions of Shattered/Meta, he replied: "They're the most common forms of the map. #_# ". Everyone should take a look at the tournaments who had Xeris behind them: decent prizes but awful organization. This guy is a total amateur and I have no clue why he's still part of eSports.
If this is true, its really sad.
THe worst part is the tournament format its really really bad and tbh this guy is right its kinda amateur.
Uh, that's just wrong lol.
Whats wrong ? explain pls Or do you think the single elimination / the maps are alright?
The whole post he said is not true. I wrote "Shakuras" and "Metalopolis" on the website and clarified in the chat the correct version to play on, which is the most updated version. Go look @ VOD of the open tournament and see which version of the map they played on
You know, I think that they are trying, and while I don't expect vast improvements over the course of one day, I'm sure there won't be as many technical bugs or horrendous downtime.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
My only complaint is the format of the finals.They played well for months against 50 top players just to fly all the way to NA to play one bo3. It really frustrates me to see months of hard work just to put it all on the line for one short series.
You shouldn't be biased in your polls - "As it is now. You fly all the way from Europe and get eliminated after 10 minutes." This statement is very bias. Obviously you strongly disagree w/ this format. But yeah, the system is very unforgiving
On July 10 2011 01:13 Drlemur wrote: Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Getting 2 more booths would be about $10,000 in additional cost. Those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees and we don't have unlimited money.
On July 10 2011 00:05 PrimeTimey wrote: Have more than two booths so that the next set of players can set up while the other game is going on. The main reason for the downtime was waiting for the booth to be empty, new player set it up, doing the intros, etc. etc. etc. If you want a tournament to be run smoothly you need ample computers. 4 Booths! (Make them bigger)
We have 2 warmup areas for players.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Mostly I was talking about how he was saying they would have to roll the booths on and off the stage if they had more, like it was against the laws of physics or something to have more than 2 booths on a stage.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
I think you complied a very good list of things to change, but some aren't really big deals / they depend on the person watching.
For example, the ladies doing the interview was fine imo. The casters aren't going to have an in depth conversation with the winner especially considering half of them are korean, so it's better to ask exciting questions that aren't necessarily analytical ( an example of anayltical would be the old artosis interviews in GSL season 1-3).
Also, I think it would have been exciting to have Tastosis cast the final match, but it makes sense for the original two (Incontrol and Gretorp) to cast the final match of the day.
It makes me plain angry when people start complaining about Xeris' ability in tournament hosting and decision making. Xeris has hosted more tournaments than most of you probably have ladder games, and you also forget that the decent prizes are partially to his credit. Don't take for granted the thousands available in prizes when in brood war an organizer was lucky to scrounge 50$ for the best.
and are you guys so naive to say, "if it was bo5, xeris is not an amateur, but since its bo3, xeris is an amateur." xeris should not and has not yet defended himself in his ability to host tournaments because most sane people would not dare to question Xeris as the #1 tournament planner outside of korea. eSports outside of korea is how it is today partially because xeris has helped build it this way for the past many years.
but perhaps im overreacting. your statement is simply that you have no clue why hes still a part of esports and maybe you are just completely unknowing of who xeris is and what he has done. so i will give you a clue: hes still part of esports because he helps esports grow.
i think a way to give more NA to NASL is giving 14 additional spots through LAN events (5 at east coast, 5 at west coast and 4 in canada) then the NASL will have 64 players.
actually the regular season has 225 matches to 50 players. with 64 players in a swiss system at 6 rounds there will be 192 matches, but more NA players can compete.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
One thing I notice is that people love to hate on NASL. Sure, they make some mistakes, but as quick as one comes then everything is picked apart.
For example with the BO3 in RO16. Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational also had people flying to the event, and there it was BO3 single elim all the way until the finals. Not only that, only the winner got any cash. NASL has a 6.4 times bigger price pool, and it's spread all the way down to every player that came, not just the winner.
And the 1 day Dreamhack Invitational was seen as one of the best events up to that point just because it went smoother, even with many things worse than NASL.
Adding 2 additional booths would cost a lot of money and that money would be better spent elsewhere (prize pool, flights, hotels, staff, equipment) and it wouldn't be worth the cost for how much time it would actually save.
Tip in terms of staff: Use media students if you cannot afford more people(The event is in California so should be no shortage of those)
The media business is very cutthroat and people will do anything to get some good experience on their CV, even working for free during an entire weekend like this. I am a media student myself and have done a few live broadcasts, i know what a pain in the ass they are.
What people dont understand is that the more people you have, the more you can prepare down to miniscule details such as sound balance and what not. I simply think this is a case of NASL not having the manpower in the production team to test every single thing beforehand and tackling problems as they arise. Again, get some college students and offer them free food for it or something, you'll get tons of people.
Some people are complaining about things that weren't even that bad tbh. Complaining about the casters is pretty petty. I know that tastosis is really popular but people just assume they should be the only ones ever casters when others do a pretty good job too.
Now, for the serious complaints, there were some problems on day 1.
The downtime- It has been mentioned a lot. I'm not going to watch an event where there are 40 minute breaks in between games. There is no reason there should be more than 10 minute breaks in between sets. You are going to lose a ton of your audience with big breaks.
The audio/video quality- Both weren't the greatest. The audio was pretty bad. I thought we would get a higher quality than 420? on the video though.
The interviews- Some of the interviews were just painful to watch. It seemed like the players didn't even know they were going to be interviewed.
This thread is vitriol. They already explained what happened that caused the delay. Saying they didn't check til 5 mins is both ignorant and insulting considering the circumstances.
Complaining about casters on big games is too subjective.
Audio issues were indeed bad so yes they should fix that.
The whole format thing is whatever to me. Players knew ahead of time the format. Play harder and you won't feel this fly 11 hours to play only one match. You can't have double elims for every tournament. Where were these complaints back in march when they announced the formats and changes could've been made then? People like to bandwagon and complain it seems.
The spacing of games was fine since it was scheduled. The delays were frustrating but unforeseeable. At least from a player standpoint it wasn't like mlg where players were treated poorly by admins and schedules were barely enforced...
On July 09 2011 17:26 kalany wrote: You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
It is on NASL. The problems exhibited at the Grand Final have been characteristic of NASL all season long.
I'll start with the venue, since I knew this was going to be a problem just from seeing the pictures several days in advance.
You chose a big airy ballroom with seating for 720 people. That's honestly not a lot of people and you would've been much better served to use a more intimate setting such as a highschool or college auditorium. Reasons:
1. Anyone who's ever been to a club knows that it's better for the club to run out of space than to have vacancies. You say, "Oh, we'll fix that next time but hey everyone, we were overflowing with demand." Even if your crowd was full (it did not look like it was from pre/post-event photographs and first hand accounts), the ballroom was probably only 60-70% filled which just makes it look unpopular. 2. Price. Renting out an auditorium is going to be cheaper than an event center ball room. Your internet requirements are minimal, so that shouldn't be an issue. 3. Knowing your product. It seems like you're trying to emulate an OSL Grand Final in every way you can, but that's not the product you're selling. A smaller, more intimate venue feels better for the live audience, and it looks better at those types of numbers. It also reinforces the idea that this is a home grown product, the way DH Invitational looks. 4. Equipment (I'll touch more on it later.) A lot of it would already been in place and you wouldn't have to bring everything of your own. 5. Audience. Ontario, California is far from everything. No one actually wants to travel there. If you get a campus auditorium, you're not only more centrally located, but you're centrally located for your core audience- young people.
Now onto equipment. You have too much of it. Your event makes me think of a rich kid learning to play guitar, who buys an expensive Fender, amps and effects units before actually knowing how to pluck a string. That soundboard, the lights and the stage are overkill. 1. The soundboard doesn't fit your needs. I don't know who recommended it, but it was a terrible recommendation and you're obviously having a difficult time handling all of the features it provides. 2. Choose a better venue and you don't need that fuckton of lights. The amount you have is seriously absurd and again, it makes lighting harder to manage. 3. Screens. We know you had projector problems, but you still didn't set them up properly for the live viewers. You know this, so I won't touch on it that much but I'll bring up something you might not realize. You don't need 3 screens. 2 would be perfect, 1 would even be passable. The audience isn't spread out enough to really need that much screen coverage and it can actually be distracting from the single screen, the way that watching a panel of TVs at Best Buy is. Again, in a venue with theater style seating, this is even more true.
Staff problems. 1. Your audio people are not good at their job. This has been a problem all season long. They might be nice people, but they don't deserve anyone's slack. 2. Your cameramen are not good at their job. The job of a well-trained cameraman is not a difficult one. I assume yours aren't, so I hope they're at least volunteers. It's actually not the shakiness or losing focus that suggest that the most. It's that they don't know how to center their shots. You learn that on like the first day of class. 3. Your graphics people are not good at their jobs. I don't mean the CGI, that stuff is fine. But the NASL graphics/logo have always been ugly and that overlay needs to be scrapped. Again, I hope no one was paid to make it because that's just the lowest of the low of Photoshop know-how. A bar with a gradient filter, half cutting off the nice overlay that Blizzard built into the game. Who thought that would be a good idea, any why didn't anyone see that and say "turn that off"? 4. The set looks shoddy. The job of set design is an iffy one and I can understand if they were limited by time or resources, but it really just doesn't look good. On top of that, the design is tacky. I'll go back to an earlier point and say you need to tone it down. You don't need a huge stage like that. Give your people less to work on, and they'll do a better job on the fewer tasks they have. This was a problem during the NASL regular season as well. The set design was poor, with very bad colors/shades.
Overall these are a few of the things you need to fix, but these are all symptomatic of the bigger problems NASL has had all season long. You shouldn't have to learn all this stuff over again and go through growing pains. ESPORTS has been going on on a major scale for over 10 years now. There are staff from WCG/IEM/DH/CPL/ESEA/MLG/Blizzcon/ESL/etc. who already know how to put this type of production together. You should've hired them, at least to direct things, than do it entirely yourself. Just think about these two sets of events: NASL regular season/EG Master's Cup and NASL Grand Finals/Day9 Beta Countdown. When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse.
A lot of these aren't major issues and they don't detract from the game viewing experience, but they highlight a bigger and more serious issue: the director is not doing their job. Running things is a terrifically difficult job, but it falls on them to see the product and say, "that part isn't right, fix it." There have been so many little things continually not right about NASL, and no one noticed it until the fans pointed it out. And I don't mean big, complex things that are difficult to fix. I'm talking about stuff that could be fixed within an instant, and should have been noticed on the first pass through. That "noticer" has been absent. You need to hire a dedicated director, who simply understands how a finished viewing event should look.
EDIT: Also, your tournament format is not very fair to most of the players. I don't mean in a "omg extended series is dumb!" kind of way. I mean that people chocked up a lot of money to fly to the middle of nowhere, play two games and then be out. "But they had the chance to win $50,000!" doesn't matter. Either make it a double elimination bracket (then you set up an extra set of competitor computers backstage) OR make the ro16/ro8 online. Paying $3,000 for a plane ticket and being done in 15 minutes is an awful, souring experience.
This is the best post in the thread. It sums up everything nicely and gets to the heart of the issue. If there's one post NASL should pay attention for season 2 improvements, this is it. Is this supposed to be the best event in North America or not?
On July 10 2011 01:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: This thread is vitriol. They already explained what happened that caused the delay. Saying they didn't check til 5 mins is both ignorant and insulting considering the circumstances.
Complaining about casters on big games is too subjective.
Audio issues were indeed bad so yes they should fix that.
The whole format thing is whatever to me. Players knew ahead of time the format. Play harder and you won't feel this fly 11 hours to play only one match. You can't have double elims for every tournament. Where were these complaints back in march when they announced the formats and changes could've been made then? People like to bandwagon and complain it seems.
The spacing of games was fine since it was scheduled. The delays were frustrating but unforeseeable. At least from a player standpoint it wasn't like mlg where players were treated poorly by admins and schedules were barely enforced...
Coddling and white knighting doesn't help anyone. An excerpt from a post on reddit:
This is because people who don't play starcraft suspect that it is a nerdy passtime for the socially inept. This is not true, but when the uninitiated watch the low production quality and the social awkwardness of the casters it just confirms their suspicions. "Yep," they say to themselves, "this is just some esoteric fad for fanboys." The more this happens, the more credibility eSports loses. Without converting the masses, eSports will go nowhere.
Basically, the NASL finals are taking esports backwards.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
then run a server os (f.e. win2008 r2) and let the players set up their own virtual machine before the broadcast starts. all you need for that is 2gb additional ram. or set up a multiple boot setup. or even simplier, let them make a spreadsheet with their own environment which a technician of yours sets up quickly before the games.
all that the players need is a mouse, keyboard and a ruler! and i wouldnt mind seeing that;-)
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
Then talk to us. Tell us there's a delay because there's a pc issue or something. Hell we had to get information from twitter from other sources about what was going on in the 2 hour delay. Just basic PR man. That's one of the biggest reasons I can see for the angry. There's absolutely no PR going on.
Man even a simple "for 2 hours we are going to give HD passes for 50% off because of the delays!" would quell a lot of the outrage. Simple business PR is so lacking. Why do you think MLG is so loved after all the hate? PR
On July 10 2011 01:26 Xeris wrote: We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
So you paid $10,000 for a booth that didn't have the capacity to have the cords out of the way? Sounds like some pretty bad decision making there. Or do it yourself and drill a few holes.
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
Pretty sure at least half of those problems are because the booths are the size of a coffin. :/
For all those requesting Tastosis to cast the "big matches" you are way over your heads. Gretorp and Incontrol have worked hard all season as casters for NASL and deserve to cast which ever games they feel. Secondly, what the hell is a "big match"? As far as I am concerned I watched a bunch of epic games yesterday that had the best players in the world.
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
Pretty sure at least half of those problems are because the booths are the size of a coffin. :/
We're well aware of the booth size, we'll fix that for the next event :D
On July 09 2011 16:13 Dr. ROCKZO wrote: Things like Day[9] sounding like Cho'Gath are all evidence to suggest that there has been a lack of beta testing in the system. Honestly, NASL just needs a little more experience (which I agree, shouldn't be realized only just now)
Equalize every audio feed, EQ main mics, balance the audio and then most importantly, send the orchestrated sound in equal amounts out of your Left and Right. I really don't know how that wasn't fixed all day. Sort of embarrassing really, but oh well, great games NASL, I still love you.
I really don't get this because
Dreamhack MLG (secondly, not first, which was a fuckfest) IPN None of them had 100% experience with esports before but they all nailed their first TV/Stream events perfectly, something the NASL hasn't done. Now I know it might not be easy, I even made a topic long ago defending the NASL and mentioning that Dreamhack Invitational had 50+ people working around and with it.
But this is not making it fair on themselves, the NASL had such mentions about itself and now the finals is played on what seems to be a mess hall, inside cabinets whilst the casters are sitting at one of those easy-fold tables. I wouldn't mind all this, really, just as I didn't mind Day9 countdown party, it was cozy as hell and full of heart, but it is so blatantly obvious that Gretorp/Incontrol are themselves abit ashamed and awkward aswell as the Audio/Video quality of Day9 countdownparty was 10 times better and I godamn refuse to believe that Day9's countdownparty had a better budget than a 100 000$ tournament.
I paid for the NASL, I hope they straighten their shit up really, it would be nice with another powerhouse tournament. I just feel really bad for BoxeR coming here and this is what he got, atleast he can comfort himself with MMA's glory at MLG.
I hope they fix these things for future events, and realize that pricepool is really not everything. I think most players would travel across the glove for a 1/16 chance of 10 000$ if they knew the event would make them feel like superstars...
EDIT: Also people tend to forgot that during Season 1 and 2 of the GSL there was oceans of whine regarding the stream quality, lag, etc etc. and they've really improved to the point that people compare every tournament to the GSL. I still can't watch gomplayer without it crashing on me so that's a huge piece of shit but atleast their vods system etc. works almost perfectly, something the NASL never managed to do (having all 3 matches in a vod and the vod time displayed is a huge spoiler if it's 2 or 3 games in most cases). I'd say give them time but it has been over 9 weeks, these things should've been fixed ages ago.
if players fly all the way across the world just to play one bo3, lose, then go home, i don't think they'll want to participate again in the future. (which means less growth for esports)
Xeris -- you do a lot of the replies here and in general a lot of the communication from NASL. Do you run it? Who is the lead?
BTW, I think the fly-to-LA to play a bo3 makes it excitingly high-stakes. Boxers (pugilists, not SlayerS train for months or years before a big fight that can be over in minutes, too.
In anything, I'd say play that aspect of it up: "Welcome to California. You played the GSL a few days ago and flew all the way here from Korea to play in the NASL finals! How are you feeling, how did you prepare?" Makes it that much more impressive that the Koreans are winning so much, IMHO.
You guys are doing a lot right. My comments above are just meant to remind/reinforce that you have to think of yourself as professional entertainers, not SC2 players.
I really liked having casters that broadened the appeal of the game. Tastosis was wonderful. I hated watching incontrol and getorp because they had so many inside jokes, it was hard for me to even CONSIDER showing others the videos. Tastosis on the other hand, as well as some of the previous casters that showed up from time to time did what was needed to expand e-sports.
As for the actual event, minus the technical issues (that shouldn't have really happened) it was decent until tastosis showed up, before then I was going to be turning off the stream soon.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Getting 2 more booths would be about $10,000 in additional cost. Those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees and we don't have unlimited money.
Or you guys could do what Homestory Cup did and just have laptops as the main comp and a Monitor in the booth you connect to the laptop for the player. When the next match is up you take out the laptop from inside the booth and switch it with the one the next player just warmed up on. No lugging around huge towers, just moving two laptops...
There are easy fixes that don't take thousands of dollars for quick setup time.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Getting 2 more booths would be about $10,000 in additional cost. Those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees and we don't have unlimited money.
Or you guys could do what Homestory Cup did and just have laptops as the main comp and a Monitor in the booth you connect to the laptop for the player. When the next match is up you take out the laptop from inside the booth and switch it with the one the next player just warmed up on. No lugging around huge towers, just moving two laptops...
There are easy fixes that don't take thousands of dollars for quick setup time.
I guess you don't understand how picky progamers are when it comes to equipment. The only feasible way for it to work is having completely separate booths like the GSL has. Unplugging then replugging will take just as much time.
Well, at least Xeris is in this thread answering questions and concerns. The answers might not be entirely satisfactory always, and some of them do come off as a tad too defensive, but it's something.
I still haven't entirely decided if I want to renew my Premium for next season. I did enjoy the regular season, mostly, but I've been really disappointed by some of the mistakes that have been made for this tournament. It just doesn't excite me as much as a 16-man $100k tournament should. Though a few more DarkForce vs Alive's and that might change.
I did give MLG the benefit of the doubt after Dallas, and they came through. Prove to me that you deserve the same chance. (Bloody hell, does that make me sound like a self-entitled jackass or what?).
I know that NASL has a fixed map pool for every round but imo it's boring to see a ro16 (8 matches) with only 3 maps. The first 2 maps that was featured in the ro16 didn't include a macro map (ex:Tal da'rim) which may skew the results to players with great build orders.
On July 10 2011 01:17 Xeris wrote: Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
Yes companies have to start somewhere. Nobody is expecting to have a flawless production of a life event but we at least expected some production value. And honestly, I find it very weird that one of the organizers is posting defensively on the forum, only saying that they are not as big as GSL.
Let me tell you a little story. The NASL season started with lots of production value flops. The sound was not working, the Broadcast has more hickups and overall a not good package. I tuned in, in the first week and was disappointed. One of the major complains was indeed the sound. Yesterday I browsed sc2reddit and saw some post about sound issues. I thought this was a joke post because nobody could do the same major error twice. I tuned in and... I could not believe what i saw. You have the same problems you started with! The same glaring sound issues, the same dark colors everywhere. And you did not address this anywhere. And because you did not address this i made my own story.
You did rent soundequipment, got the setup guy to do basic things and then you left it. You did not have any observer! And please don't tell me, the observer was suddenly ill. You have Artosis, Tasteless, Day9, Incontrol and Gretorp, and at any time 3 of these 5 have nothing to do. You could pick any of these guys.
But what happened? Apparently some fan noticed you got now observer and he is now the "official" one (talking about TheGunrun). And also he tries to fix your sound! Please tell me if he also does the catering, cleans the bathrooms and does everything else. For him I hope you at least pay him.
And please don't forget other nice "minor" mistakes you made: I watched some zerg vs some protoss, the zerg was purple and the protoss was red. I could not see (on the free stream) if the zerg had any hydras in his roach army because your picture is just to dark.
You break your own rules. As far as I know your homepage says that races are fixed. But it seems there is an exception for Morrow. I don't know why and I start to not care.
And that is one of the major problems. I have a free weekend, where I could watch NASL but I start not to care if I can't see anything and get bleeding ears. I repeat. You have in me a customer who wants to watch your stuff but will not because of your production. I hope you don't see this as a zealous rant of some basement guy hiding behind his anonymity on the internet.
Edit: Apparently thegunrun is some guy from justin.tv and there is some explanation (which I don't understand) why they had no observer.
On July 09 2011 17:26 kalany wrote: You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
It is on NASL. The problems exhibited at the Grand Final have been characteristic of NASL all season long.
I'll start with the venue, since I knew this was going to be a problem just from seeing the pictures several days in advance.
You chose a big airy ballroom with seating for 720 people. That's honestly not a lot of people and you would've been much better served to use a more intimate setting such as a highschool or college auditorium. Reasons:
1. Anyone who's ever been to a club knows that it's better for the club to run out of space than to have vacancies. You say, "Oh, we'll fix that next time but hey everyone, we were overflowing with demand." Even if your crowd was full (it did not look like it was from pre/post-event photographs and first hand accounts), the ballroom was probably only 60-70% filled which just makes it look unpopular. 2. Price. Renting out an auditorium is going to be cheaper than an event center ball room. Your internet requirements are minimal, so that shouldn't be an issue. 3. Knowing your product. It seems like you're trying to emulate an OSL Grand Final in every way you can, but that's not the product you're selling. A smaller, more intimate venue feels better for the live audience, and it looks better at those types of numbers. It also reinforces the idea that this is a home grown product, the way DH Invitational looks. 4. Equipment (I'll touch more on it later.) A lot of it would already been in place and you wouldn't have to bring everything of your own. 5. Audience. Ontario, California is far from everything. No one actually wants to travel there. If you get a campus auditorium, you're not only more centrally located, but you're centrally located for your core audience- young people.
Now onto equipment. You have too much of it. Your event makes me think of a rich kid learning to play guitar, who buys an expensive Fender, amps and effects units before actually knowing how to pluck a string. That soundboard, the lights and the stage are overkill. 1. The soundboard doesn't fit your needs. I don't know who recommended it, but it was a terrible recommendation and you're obviously having a difficult time handling all of the features it provides. 2. Choose a better venue and you don't need that fuckton of lights. The amount you have is seriously absurd and again, it makes lighting harder to manage. 3. Screens. We know you had projector problems, but you still didn't set them up properly for the live viewers. You know this, so I won't touch on it that much but I'll bring up something you might not realize. You don't need 3 screens. 2 would be perfect, 1 would even be passable. The audience isn't spread out enough to really need that much screen coverage and it can actually be distracting from the single screen, the way that watching a panel of TVs at Best Buy is. Again, in a venue with theater style seating, this is even more true.
Staff problems. 1. Your audio people are not good at their job. This has been a problem all season long. They might be nice people, but they don't deserve anyone's slack. 2. Your cameramen are not good at their job. The job of a well-trained cameraman is not a difficult one. I assume yours aren't, so I hope they're at least volunteers. It's actually not the shakiness or losing focus that suggest that the most. It's that they don't know how to center their shots. You learn that on like the first day of class. 3. Your graphics people are not good at their jobs. I don't mean the CGI, that stuff is fine. But the NASL graphics/logo have always been ugly and that overlay needs to be scrapped. Again, I hope no one was paid to make it because that's just the lowest of the low of Photoshop know-how. A bar with a gradient filter, half cutting off the nice overlay that Blizzard built into the game. Who thought that would be a good idea, any why didn't anyone see that and say "turn that off"? 4. The set looks shoddy. The job of set design is an iffy one and I can understand if they were limited by time or resources, but it really just doesn't look good. On top of that, the design is tacky. I'll go back to an earlier point and say you need to tone it down. You don't need a huge stage like that. Give your people less to work on, and they'll do a better job on the fewer tasks they have. This was a problem during the NASL regular season as well. The set design was poor, with very bad colors/shades.
Overall these are a few of the things you need to fix, but these are all symptomatic of the bigger problems NASL has had all season long. You shouldn't have to learn all this stuff over again and go through growing pains. ESPORTS has been going on on a major scale for over 10 years now. There are staff from WCG/IEM/DH/CPL/ESEA/MLG/Blizzcon/ESL/etc. who already know how to put this type of production together. You should've hired them, at least to direct things, than do it entirely yourself. Just think about these two sets of events: NASL regular season/EG Master's Cup and NASL Grand Finals/Day9 Beta Countdown. When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse.
A lot of these aren't major issues and they don't detract from the game viewing experience, but they highlight a bigger and more serious issue: the director is not doing their job. Running things is a terrifically difficult job, but it falls on them to see the product and say, "that part isn't right, fix it." There have been so many little things continually not right about NASL, and no one noticed it until the fans pointed it out. And I don't mean big, complex things that are difficult to fix. I'm talking about stuff that could be fixed within an instant, and should have been noticed on the first pass through. That "noticer" has been absent. You need to hire a dedicated director, who simply understands how a finished viewing event should look.
EDIT: Also, your tournament format is not very fair to most of the players. I don't mean in a "omg extended series is dumb!" kind of way. I mean that people chocked up a lot of money to fly to the middle of nowhere, play two games and then be out. "But they had the chance to win $50,000!" doesn't matter. Either make it a double elimination bracket (then you set up an extra set of competitor computers backstage) OR make the ro16/ro8 online. Paying $3,000 for a plane ticket and being done in 15 minutes is an awful, souring experience.
@xeris While we may not see or know about infinity problems going on behind the scenes that you are all taking care of and going 110% full blown working as hard as possible to reduce problems. the problems this guy says are it this is a very wellspoken post and 100% correct imo.
I think the BO3 isn't all that atrocious. Look at the NFL, the playoff games are BO1s and along with the Super Bowl as well. I mean, either you make it or you don't. AFter all, they are seeding the players which is supposedly going to thin out the herd, although some of the top seeded players ended up losing T.T
On July 10 2011 01:13 Drlemur wrote: Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
Yes, we are comparing NASL to MLG, GSL, Dreamhack and so on. And thats because your prizepool is comparable(or even higher), the attending players are comparable and the cost of your premium pass is comparable...
Its true that companies have to start somewhere and NASL didn't start as a weekly cup or a small tournament casted from someones living room, but as a huge league. Now you get judged by these standards and i really don't see whats wrong with that.
Oh and by the way: Giving feedback doesn't equal not liking you...
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
That's all understandable and all, but it doesn't change the fact that in the 8ish hours I watched last night for maybe a full hour of games. All the other problems I can overlook, but the way it is at the moment, it's simply annoying to watch. Your goal should be to produce exciting TV content instead of a show where I occasionally turn in between watching reruns of the OC.
So u want to have a format where ur able to show every match -> group oder double eliminition is not an option with one stream, and more streams would probably cause more trouble.
In my opinion you should extend the bo3 to a bo5 after ur production gets tigther, which you should automatically achieve in the future.
9 Weeks of league play, travelling hundreds of miles, to just play 1 Bo3 is ridiculous. Double elimination or Bo5's in the finals would be more suitable.
Please!! This game is too 'random', and I say that loosely, to travel as far as many did to get only 1 Bo3.
^ That goes for any competition really.
As many others I second this. The 16 round has been quite unfair for many of the players imo.
You can't drill extra holes in a sound-proof both and keep it sound-proof, btw.
I think the between-match downtime can't really be consistently avoided because of the special equipment and the fact that players like to set up themselves. Best you can do is have the players setting up their equipment during those highlight videos. Which were decent, but can be further improved too. You could talk about their equipment to fill some of that time. I bet their sponsors would like that.
My intuition is that you have to expect that there will be lots of downtime and plan for other kinds of entertainment to fill. The casters can fill and do a great job when they are telling stories, or talking to the crowds. You can do more behind-the-scenes interviews, e.g., about the pressure of coming all the way to CA with the risk of losing in the first round. Play some music. Do some crowd giveaways. But you have to plan for it. Both the live audience and the stream should be kept entertained for the whole event. You'll get more sponsors if you have more eyeballs paying attention.
On July 10 2011 01:48 Drlemur wrote: You can't drill extra holes in a sound-proof both and keep it sound-proof, btw.
I think the between-match downtime can't really be consistently avoided because of the special equipment and the fact that players like to set up themselves. Best you can do is have the players setting up their equipment during those highlight videos. Which were decent, but can be further improved too. You could talk about their equipment to fill some of that time. I bet their sponsors would like that.
My intuition is that you have to expect that there will be lots of downtime and plan for other kinds of entertainment to fill. The casters can fill and do a great job when they are telling stories, or talking to the crowds. You can do more behind-the-scenes interviews, e.g., about the pressure of coming all the way to CA with the risk of losing in the first round. Play some music. Do some crowd giveaways. But you have to plan for it. Both the live audience and the stream should be kept entertained for the whole event. You'll get more sponsors if you have more eyeballs paying attention.
Well said. There's theoretically nothing wrong with what NASL is doing, but it's not the best format out there. I agree that there's a difference between just "doing something" and "doing something well".
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Getting 2 more booths would be about $10,000 in additional cost. Those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees and we don't have unlimited money.
Or you guys could do what Homestory Cup did and just have laptops as the main comp and a Monitor in the booth you connect to the laptop for the player. When the next match is up you take out the laptop from inside the booth and switch it with the one the next player just warmed up on. No lugging around huge towers, just moving two laptops...
There are easy fixes that don't take thousands of dollars for quick setup time.
I guess you don't understand how picky progamers are when it comes to equipment. The only feasible way for it to work is having completely separate booths like the GSL has. Unplugging then replugging will take just as much time.
They'd all be using the same equipment, they'd just take it with them inside the booth. It worked for Homestory Cup I don't see why it wouldn't work here. It's literally unplugging the power, monitor, ethernet and putting the keyboard, mouse, headphones on the laptop and carrying into the booth and plugging the power, monitor, and ethernet back in. It's not rocket science, I'm sure you can train chimps to do it in less than 2 minutes.
Production values where quite terrible, so much dead air and silence and bad camera work thankfully the games where ok.
Needs music/atmosphere. Clear graphics not tiny text for synosis's Better stage, looked so basic and dull.
Format was quite a waste for what time it took up. Felt worse then most daily tourneys on so many levels.
Great ideas in this tourney but execution was very disappointing.
Interviews where quite quite bad, seems to be aiming for something mainstream in the execution of a lot of things but the overall feel was not SC2 feely. Homestory, or normal daily tourneys have a lot more feeling to them.
Does anyone know when they are planning to have the day1 vods up? I was hoping to see a few of the games before todays stream came back on. Probably no time now but an eta would still be good.
I'm sorry guys, Yesterday I was in the dark about what has been going as much as you guys. I am not not at the event and the people I get my information and updates from were busy all day at the event trying to fix things and running the show. Right after the event finished I passed out because I did not get any sleep the night before so I did not get the chance to talk to anyone till this morning.
Basically what happened yesterday is as follows: The night before the event started we were doing some testing and preparing the rightmost projector suffered catastrophic failure and was unusable. We immediately overnight a replacement that arrived first thing in this morning. Installation took extensive time and thus caused a hour delay to the premiere. Additionally, this last minute projector replacement meant we did not have an opportunity to extensively test the projection system. As it turns out, the venue projection fails to hook up to the stream output. As a last minute solution we placed the stream system on follow to the stream observer. There are feedbacks regarding this caused jerky camera motion, so we changed to a dedicated observer for rest of the cast. Throughout the day they also worked with some Justin.TV people(Gunrun and some others) to help optimize the stream quality and to fix the audio.
As for stream and audio interviews, the projectors there were not cooperating very well so there had to be two separate streams, One for the In-house stream and one for the online one. The audio for the in-house stream got fixed and balanced but there is something going on between the upstream and jtv stream which is causing the issues. We think the problem is something about the FMLE not liking using the AAC codec for audio on the stream output which is causing the imbalance. The crew pulled a all nighter to try to fix and improve everything. Hopefully everything will be great today and I will try to keep you guys updated more~
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
This is true.... but it seems odd that all of these things happen to you guys and not the GSL and other tourneys.
Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
On July 10 2011 01:40 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I think the BO3 isn't all that atrocious. Look at the NFL, the playoff games are BO1s and along with the Super Bowl as well. I mean, either you make it or you don't. AFter all, they are seeding the players which is supposedly going to thin out the herd, although some of the top seeded players ended up losing T.T
On July 10 2011 01:55 beat farm wrote: why are we asking for double elimination for nasl when in mlg all we do is complain about it.
People complain about the extended series, not double elimination. Personally, I agree with everything Jibba said. People need to step up or be replaced.
On July 10 2011 01:40 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I think the BO3 isn't all that atrocious. Look at the NFL, the playoff games are BO1s and along with the Super Bowl as well. I mean, either you make it or you don't. AFter all, they are seeding the players which is supposedly going to thin out the herd, although some of the top seeded players ended up losing T.T
yes but the NFL games cant be over in 10 minutes
Tru tru, but the principle is there. Some things, you don't really get second chances. If you mess up in that crucial moment, then it's really unforgiving. Personally, I would like a different format, but the format NASL is using so far isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Still sad to see Boxer and Ret go so early though.
Apart from a few audio problems and the camera that was showing the casters shaking. I think the even is really good. Fix some minor issues and NASL will be amazing, really top notch.
Also; Double Elim or atleast Bo5. But I bet if it was Bo5 people would still complain and ask for double elim so, I think the best choice would be to go for Double Elimination, it's the fairest method anyhow.
Thanks for putting on a great event overall and can't wait for season 2 after this one finishes! :D
On July 10 2011 01:55 beat farm wrote: why are we asking for double elimination for nasl when in mlg all we do is complain about it.
Because the fans of (insert random player x) always feel that their guy got screwed over by the tournament instead of his own play. There will always be bitching about the tournament format, doesn't matter if its GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack, whatever.
Simple fact is that in order to win a tournament, you have to beat everyone and any seeding system has it's flaws (look at tennis). You can't make everyone happy.
Just looking at the OP, it seems like the majority of things on the list are just personal gripes as opposed to actual problems. If you're going to start a thread like this, please try to not seem so biased. The booths aren't as aesthetically appealing as they should be? You have got to be kidding me.
Anyway, the audio was the only thing that I really had a problem with, not being able to hear interviews (Squirtle's comes to mind) was definitely an issue, but I think if that could be fixed the whole production value would increase by a lot.
Just to long wait for games.. Girl's who make interviews are hot everyone knows that. But maby they need to learn nicks etc ? Camera is shaking.. camera man must drink or something..
Ps.. just someone tell Moon to next time make more banes plsss :D
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
I am sorry but i have to comment a little on this. Maybe you guy are just misunderstood, but i always see some sort of "justification, not our fault, for us is different, etc" comments coming from you. It's not like you are doing some ground braking stuff that no one in the world knows how to do. There are tons of tournaments out there that have been doing this for years, so the "it's hard, bear with us" argument falls flat for me. We are not in the "dark" era of organising events anymore. The standard is high, especially for a pay per view (vods) event/ competition.
It is incredibly hard to make/ design a car, even a very shity one. Do the buyers actually care how hard it is to make? obviously not. They will just shit on it and go and buy another, better brand.
My point is that i do not understand the public attitude of the league. A serious company will acknowledge the short comings and promise to fix them(and fixes them ex: MLG), not ignoring them/ find excuses. It gives the impression that you are ... content... with how things are going thus far. This is what i find discouraging about NASL. It has been this way since the very first broadcast.
I know to this day incontrol must just regret ever having been excited and express his excitement about the league. That has been held against him, and the NASL by all the haters from day one. "BUT INCONTROL SAID THIS WAS GOING TO BE AWESOME!!!!" Ya, he's also said Pizza is awesome, so what. You've never talked up anything in your life? Regardless of the hype I had reasonable expectations just knowing the fact that they were basically running a 3 hour daily TV show for 9 weeks, and basically building it up from the ground level. That is not an easy task, long hours, little pay, all to try to do something cool. I never fault people when I know the effort is there. If they were lazy or didn't care it is one thing, but CLEARLY this isn't the case.
So now, to conclude my long post because I'm tired of reading about complaints the last 24 hours,stating things over and over that we all agree with, NASL agrees with and recognizes(They have listened to the viewers and their comments EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, they aren't ignoring the fans), and that I personally also hope they improve on as well, I'm going to type out a list of stuff I liked about the NASL this season :
1 - I like the league setup and the weekly games. It reminds me of a regular season of a sporting event. I could tune in when I wanted to see my favorite players or chose to not watch that day. They were generally always on time, and I feel the longer format really allowed the cream to rise to the top. I liked that if I had something to do or missed games I could see that player the next week or tune in the next day. A more relaxed viewer approach than say an MLG weekend where I'm trying to sit around the computer for 48 straight hours.
2 - I liked that the longer format allowed me to get to know some players throughout the league. There are players I became a fan of because it was fun to watch them do well week after week and hear the interviews right after. You don't get that in online tournaments or quick weekend LAN events all the time, and it was cool. I also thought the long format allowed talented players to rise to the top, and the players that knew how to prepare each week for their opponents did well and that was cool to see and hear how players prepared each week(some a lot, some not at all).
3 - I liked the pregame they did before the matches when there were players involved I wanted to hear about. It was cool to do a "pregame" event just like they do for other sports. Some people hated this, I never understood why people didn't just tune in 30 minutes after the "start" time. Everything the NASL does tries to mimic what is done in an ACTUAL sports league, if people didn't pick up on that.
4 - The last 2 weeks of the league following the playoff scenarios, who was trying to get in for next year, who was on the bubble of getting knocked out was all really cool. It made each game that didn't seem as important really matter, and again reminded me of any other sports league.
5 - I like that the playoffs is a very cutthroat winner take all system. Sorry, I don't want to see Double Elimination all the time. I want to see win and move on, lose and go home. Whether it should be BO3/5/7 etc, that is up for debate and I think has a lot to do with working within time constraints that exist. But I'm sorry, the BS over double elimination... just don't lose and it doesn't matter. How many other sports do double elimination playoffs? World cup? NFL? NBA? NHL? Maybe a cricket league somewhere? I don't feel bad for the players either who get to take an awesome trip to California, play video games, sign autographs, and chill with other pro gamers. If you were to tell me I could get a $500 stipend, have a chance to play for $50k, and go to California I'm there but I might have to put up a bit of my own cash.... Hell I'd go to that if it was a single elimination BO1 rock/paper/scissor contest.
I ALWAYS FIND IT IRONIC WHEN FANS CALL SOMETHING UNFAIR THAT THE PLAYERS KNOW ABOUT AND DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING UNFAIR. The players knew the format and have no issues with it, I think people need to get a better understanding of what unfair actually is. Unfair would be all zergs have to win 1 game to win the series, and protoss and terran have to win 3.
6 - Things they did right at the finals so far : Although the game booths need some decoration, they at least have them. Remember MLG without them? "That's just Halo..." The casters are great and there is a variety of them. Mixing up all of them that are there is great, and it was awesome they got tastosis[9] involved and didn't get lazy and just have gretorp/incontrol on stage but brought in the big hitters. I think once the mic's were fixed Anna's interviews are good, kindof reminds me of the halftime NFL sideline reporter interviews. I liked the hype-up videos before each match including their youtube entry to get into the league(SEN LOL), perhaps just cut them down a bit but the idea is pretty cool and I liked being reminded of how the players got there and who they beat throughout the league. Again this is no different than how other sports do it, where you spend the week before the finals of a sporting event hearing about who the teams beat to get there. The Darkforce games were as entertaining as any SC2 I've seen to date. Those complaining about Double Elimination, that series was as epic as it was because you knew it was a foreign player trying to send a Korean home, not just to the losers bracket. Thought that was great. It's funny because most of the BO3/Single Elimination complaint are coming from the viewers, yet the players aren't complaining about it at all. Music they had going throughout was great.
Do I think there is plenty to work on? Sure. Just go read the last pages of this thread and the first 500 of NASL Day 1. But I also think the people who are doing this are working hard, they are trying to put together something great for eSports, they have assembled great players from around the world with a sick prize pool that is there for 3 more seasons, and at some point I think just crapping on someone over and over especially when they know about it is pointless. There is good here with this league and potential, sometimes you just have to step back, take a deep breath, and be reminded of what did go well and was enjoyable because there was plenty of it. If you had the option of taking the NASL as it was over the past few months or not having it at all I know I'd rather have enjoyed watching great games, some really funny moments, and an organization that wouldn't be doing this if they didn't want to try to add to SC2 and eSports.
Just wanted to try to sprinkle some positive in the middle of everything else.
Yeh, best of 3 seemed silly at this point. Thanks for travelling from Korea and Europe guys....
The biggest suggestion I would make is introduce the players to the crowd and have them enter their booths to set up and while playing the intro videos. Then reintroduce them when its time to go. This would tighten things up big-time.
NASL, looks like its failing due to nepotism. These are the type of problems when you hire audio and production people based upon who they know and not what they know. I personally will not be paying for NASL until it gets it act together. This is an embarassment for E-sports and honestly, I think its good for tournaments with poor production to fail. NASL doesn't deserve our wellfare and should go the way of the dodo bird. The idea they can fix these problems and improve is silly, considering the problems are rooted deep in the organization itself. The audio, production and organization are just symptoms of a larger problem. My advice is don't hire your friends, hire your people based upon knowledge and experience.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
If you had people who knew what they were doing most of those strides wouldn't have needed to be taken. It's good that you listen to feedback and you have shown throughout the season that you do listen by some of the improvements made but the quality of the show for the group stages was just barely scraping into par after 9 weeks.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
Pretty sure at least half of those problems are because the booths are the size of a coffin. :/
We're well aware of the booth size, we'll fix that for the next event :D
Why do you need your own booths? Can't you just rent the booths from MLG? I mean MLG isn't using the booths, so it would benefit them to rent them out to others to make some extra cash and renting would probably be a lot cheaper than buying your own.
The audio issues were the most baffling. Don't you have someone in the venue listening to the stream to hear what the viewers are hearing? I mean the audio issues were so blatantly obvious that they should have been fixed much faster than they were if anyone in the venue knew about them.
Map pool like others mentioned was also weird. Every game on the same 3 maps gets boring after a while.
I think most people would agree, though, that for all the issues good PR would have gone a long way to at least mitigating the anger and annoyance. For me, just knowing when the games were going to start would've helped. When Ret vs. Puma didn't start, I didn't know if it was going to be 10 minutes or 2 hours, and wanted to see the games.
More than anything, NASL, Xeris, or whoever is reading this, communicate better. You talk about how MLG Dallas had it's issues, and it did, but Sundance was EVERYWHERE afterwords trying to explain, he gave away free HD for Dallas, and they made a big deal about communicating with those who were mad. You guys so far have shown indifference at best, and sometimes have been annoyed that people aren't automatically in love with your product.
You aren't providing a free service, this isn't a charity. You're running a business and we're your customers. Start acting like it. Indignation over someone not loving your product is not how to keep customers.
Why do the booths look so bland? MLG had to design their booth to be disassembled and travel across the country. The NASL does not have to worry about that, yet it still looks worse than MLG and is smaller. As someone already said, it looks like a coffin.
On July 09 2011 17:26 kalany wrote: You can't blame it all on NASL. The crowd seemed tired and dead. NASL's gotta focus on a better venue and production crew. That computer making that sponsored them was probably in charge and they didn't necessarily do a good job.
It is on NASL. The problems exhibited at the Grand Final have been characteristic of NASL all season long.
I'll start with the venue, since I knew this was going to be a problem just from seeing the pictures several days in advance.
You chose a big airy ballroom with seating for 720 people. That's honestly not a lot of people and you would've been much better served to use a more intimate setting such as a highschool or college auditorium. Reasons:
1. Anyone who's ever been to a club knows that it's better for the club to run out of space than to have vacancies. You say, "Oh, we'll fix that next time but hey everyone, we were overflowing with demand." Even if your crowd was full (it did not look like it was from pre/post-event photographs and first hand accounts), the ballroom was probably only 60-70% filled which just makes it look unpopular. 2. Price. Renting out an auditorium is going to be cheaper than an event center ball room. Your internet requirements are minimal, so that shouldn't be an issue. 3. Knowing your product. It seems like you're trying to emulate an OSL Grand Final in every way you can, but that's not the product you're selling. A smaller, more intimate venue feels better for the live audience, and it looks better at those types of numbers. It also reinforces the idea that this is a home grown product, the way DH Invitational looks. 4. Equipment (I'll touch more on it later.) A lot of it would already been in place and you wouldn't have to bring everything of your own. 5. Audience. Ontario, California is far from everything. No one actually wants to travel there. If you get a campus auditorium, you're not only more centrally located, but you're centrally located for your core audience- young people.
Now onto equipment. You have too much of it. Your event makes me think of a rich kid learning to play guitar, who buys an expensive Fender, amps and effects units before actually knowing how to pluck a string. That soundboard, the lights and the stage are overkill. 1. The soundboard doesn't fit your needs. I don't know who recommended it, but it was a terrible recommendation and you're obviously having a difficult time handling all of the features it provides. 2. Choose a better venue and you don't need that fuckton of lights. The amount you have is seriously absurd and again, it makes lighting harder to manage. 3. Screens. We know you had projector problems, but you still didn't set them up properly for the live viewers. You know this, so I won't touch on it that much but I'll bring up something you might not realize. You don't need 3 screens. 2 would be perfect, 1 would even be passable. The audience isn't spread out enough to really need that much screen coverage and it can actually be distracting from the single screen, the way that watching a panel of TVs at Best Buy is. Again, in a venue with theater style seating, this is even more true.
Staff problems. 1. Your audio people are not good at their job. This has been a problem all season long. They might be nice people, but they don't deserve anyone's slack. 2. Your cameramen are not good at their job. The job of a well-trained cameraman is not a difficult one. I assume yours aren't, so I hope they're at least volunteers. It's actually not the shakiness or losing focus that suggest that the most. It's that they don't know how to center their shots. You learn that on like the first day of class. 3. Your graphics people are not good at their jobs. I don't mean the CGI, that stuff is fine. But the NASL graphics/logo have always been ugly and that overlay needs to be scrapped. Again, I hope no one was paid to make it because that's just the lowest of the low of Photoshop know-how. A bar with a gradient filter, half cutting off the nice overlay that Blizzard built into the game. Who thought that would be a good idea, any why didn't anyone see that and say "turn that off"? 4. The set looks shoddy. The job of set design is an iffy one and I can understand if they were limited by time or resources, but it really just doesn't look good. On top of that, the design is tacky. I'll go back to an earlier point and say you need to tone it down. You don't need a huge stage like that. Give your people less to work on, and they'll do a better job on the fewer tasks they have. This was a problem during the NASL regular season as well. The set design was poor, with very bad colors/shades.
Overall these are a few of the things you need to fix, but these are all symptomatic of the bigger problems NASL has had all season long. You shouldn't have to learn all this stuff over again and go through growing pains. ESPORTS has been going on on a major scale for over 10 years now. There are staff from WCG/IEM/DH/CPL/ESEA/MLG/Blizzcon/ESL/etc. who already know how to put this type of production together. You should've hired them, at least to direct things, than do it entirely yourself. Just think about these two sets of events: NASL regular season/EG Master's Cup and NASL Grand Finals/Day9 Beta Countdown. When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse.
A lot of these aren't major issues and they don't detract from the game viewing experience, but they highlight a bigger and more serious issue: the director is not doing their job. Running things is a terrifically difficult job, but it falls on them to see the product and say, "that part isn't right, fix it." There have been so many little things continually not right about NASL, and no one noticed it until the fans pointed it out. And I don't mean big, complex things that are difficult to fix. I'm talking about stuff that could be fixed within an instant, and should have been noticed on the first pass through. That "noticer" has been absent. You need to hire a dedicated director, who simply understands how a finished viewing event should look.
EDIT: Also, your tournament format is not very fair to most of the players. I don't mean in a "omg extended series is dumb!" kind of way. I mean that people chocked up a lot of money to fly to the middle of nowhere, play two games and then be out. "But they had the chance to win $50,000!" doesn't matter. Either make it a double elimination bracket (then you set up an extra set of competitor computers backstage) OR make the ro16/ro8 online. Paying $3,000 for a plane ticket and being done in 15 minutes is an awful, souring experience.
This post deserves to be quoted on every page of this thread. It is a fantastic summary of the issues NASL had/is having.
It is on NASL. The problems exhibited at the Grand Final have been characteristic of NASL all season long.
I'll start with the venue, since I knew this was going to be a problem just from seeing the pictures several days in advance.
You chose a big airy ballroom with seating for 720 people. That's honestly not a lot of people and you would've been much better served to use a more intimate setting such as a highschool or college auditorium. Reasons:
1. Anyone who's ever been to a club knows that it's better for the club to run out of space than to have vacancies. You say, "Oh, we'll fix that next time but hey everyone, we were overflowing with demand." Even if your crowd was full (it did not look like it was from pre/post-event photographs and first hand accounts), the ballroom was probably only 60-70% filled which just makes it look unpopular. 2. Price. Renting out an auditorium is going to be cheaper than an event center ball room. Your internet requirements are minimal, so that shouldn't be an issue. 3. Knowing your product. It seems like you're trying to emulate an OSL Grand Final in every way you can, but that's not the product you're selling. A smaller, more intimate venue feels better for the live audience, and it looks better at those types of numbers. It also reinforces the idea that this is a home grown product, the way DH Invitational looks. 4. Equipment (I'll touch more on it later.) A lot of it would already been in place and you wouldn't have to bring everything of your own. 5. Audience. Ontario, California is far from everything. No one actually wants to travel there. If you get a campus auditorium, you're not only more centrally located, but you're centrally located for your core audience- young people.
Now onto equipment. You have too much of it. Your event makes me think of a rich kid learning to play guitar, who buys an expensive Fender, amps and effects units before actually knowing how to pluck a string. That soundboard, the lights and the stage are overkill. 1. The soundboard doesn't fit your needs. I don't know who recommended it, but it was a terrible recommendation and you're obviously having a difficult time handling all of the features it provides. 2. Choose a better venue and you don't need that fuckton of lights. The amount you have is seriously absurd and again, it makes lighting harder to manage. 3. Screens. We know you had projector problems, but you still didn't set them up properly for the live viewers. You know this, so I won't touch on it that much but I'll bring up something you might not realize. You don't need 3 screens. 2 would be perfect, 1 would even be passable. The audience isn't spread out enough to really need that much screen coverage and it can actually be distracting from the single screen, the way that watching a panel of TVs at Best Buy is. Again, in a venue with theater style seating, this is even more true.
Staff problems. 1. Your audio people are not good at their job. This has been a problem all season long. They might be nice people, but they don't deserve anyone's slack. 2. Your cameramen are not good at their job. The job of a well-trained cameraman is not a difficult one. I assume yours aren't, so I hope they're at least volunteers. It's actually not the shakiness or losing focus that suggest that the most. It's that they don't know how to center their shots. You learn that on like the first day of class. 3. Your graphics people are not good at their jobs. I don't mean the CGI, that stuff is fine. But the NASL graphics/logo have always been ugly and that overlay needs to be scrapped. Again, I hope no one was paid to make it because that's just the lowest of the low of Photoshop know-how. A bar with a gradient filter, half cutting off the nice overlay that Blizzard built into the game. Who thought that would be a good idea, any why didn't anyone see that and say "turn that off"? 4. The set looks shoddy. The job of set design is an iffy one and I can understand if they were limited by time or resources, but it really just doesn't look good. On top of that, the design is tacky. I'll go back to an earlier point and say you need to tone it down. You don't need a huge stage like that. Give your people less to work on, and they'll do a better job on the fewer tasks they have. This was a problem during the NASL regular season as well. The set design was poor, with very bad colors/shades.
Overall these are a few of the things you need to fix, but these are all symptomatic of the bigger problems NASL has had all season long. You shouldn't have to learn all this stuff over again and go through growing pains. ESPORTS has been going on on a major scale for over 10 years now. There are staff from WCG/IEM/DH/CPL/ESEA/MLG/Blizzcon/ESL/etc. who already know how to put this type of production together. You should've hired them, at least to direct things, than do it entirely yourself. Just think about these two sets of events: NASL regular season/EG Master's Cup and NASL Grand Finals/Day9 Beta Countdown. When you're a business, it being your first time is not a valid excuse.
A lot of these aren't major issues and they don't detract from the game viewing experience, but they highlight a bigger and more serious issue: the director is not doing their job. Running things is a terrifically difficult job, but it falls on them to see the product and say, "that part isn't right, fix it." There have been so many little things continually not right about NASL, and no one noticed it until the fans pointed it out. And I don't mean big, complex things that are difficult to fix. I'm talking about stuff that could be fixed within an instant, and should have been noticed on the first pass through. That "noticer" has been absent. You need to hire a dedicated director, who simply understands how a finished viewing event should look.
EDIT: Also, your tournament format is not very fair to most of the players. I don't mean in a "omg extended series is dumb!" kind of way. I mean that people chocked up a lot of money to fly to the middle of nowhere, play two games and then be out. "But they had the chance to win $50,000!" doesn't matter. Either make it a double elimination bracket (then you set up an extra set of competitor computers backstage) OR make the ro16/ro8 online. Paying $3,000 for a plane ticket and being done in 15 minutes is an awful, souring experience.
Quoted for truth.
Really this guy sums up all you guys should've done I think and I've worked behind the scenes at Dreamhack.
Please learn from this and use this next time because else I think you guys will have to concede defeat, because not even people like us who paid for it and still have the decency to try and argue on what we think should be better would give a shit if the NASL keeps repeating these mistakes...
-good stream, seemed reliable and good during the event - Casters did a good job - all the stuff if im not writing on my next list
Negative
- No communication. I tuned in to the stream and had no idea what was going on, no idea if games would start in 5,10,20,45 mins etc, basically forcing me to stay at the computer just waiting. - No timefiller content. 2 hours of downtime, no commentators talking, no interviews, no tours of the place no nothing. -sound was at times bad -first interviews were a bit weird, camerawork and so on
- Way way way too much time between the games. -White-ra lost
thats about it so far, hoping for a smoother run today
Fixing everything in real time can be hard, the technical problems happens, I'm not angry toward nasl because of this. The real problem were the downtimes, this was way too long (I wanted to not sleep and watch everything, ended up going to bed at the one hour break) and the maps. I have nothing against xelnaga and crossfire, but when you only see those 2 maps during 12 hours, the audience gets bored. I don't understand how such a decision could be made, it's like no one in the nasl staff is gifted with common sense. I mean, I imagine the reunion where this was decided, and can't believe that no one stood up to say it was a terrible decision. (exactly like when nasl used ladder, close position enabled maps in their first weeks)
Anyway, some "problems" here are very nitpicky. When your solution to a problem is "put more money", you know that your solution is not good (for instance the "you can JUST add 2 booths". This "just" is what, 2000$ ?). There's already a lot of room for improvement with what they already have, asking them to spend more money is not the way to go imo.
On July 10 2011 01:32 29 fps wrote: if players fly all the way across the world just to play one bo3, lose, then go home, i don't think they'll want to participate again in the future. (which means less growth for esports)
Dreamhack Stockholm invitational had 8 people fly to Sweden and compete, and you could have someone play 2 BO3 and win nothing. WhiteRa won 2 BO3 and lost the finals and got no prize money, just an invite to Dreamhack Summer.
Meanwhile, NASL gives $500 to lose in RO16 and $1500 to lose in RO8.
It's not only about the prize money, and NASL is one of the few tournaments I've seen so far that doesn't have a ridiculously top heavy prize pool(another thing people complain about with GSL).
There are however other issues in NASL that have been well written in this thread that'd make players overlook the 500 dollars for a first round loss, and instead would choose a Dreamhack invitational over it.
On July 10 2011 01:13 Drlemur wrote: Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
The thing is, most companies have a product ready for market when they are asking money for it.
I find it strange that anyone would be willing to pay to watch people struggling with the very basics, when you could have just hired experienced and talented people from the start.
I don't pay someone to work on my car when they are not an auto mechanic with the expectation they will eventually learn how to be an auto mechanic by working on my car.
I just have some complains related to the format/schedule/organization. I'm not gonna talk about the sound or technical issues because they're fairly obvious and should be fixed with more experience/the right people.
1. If you're going to have a bracket of 16 players spanned over the course of 3 days, you better have something else going on.
Showmatches would be great. You could have: a) team match of Korea v World b) some 2v2/3v3/4v4/FFAs in which the progamers would play people from the audience (BoxeR/random person 1 VS White-Ra/random person 2 would be hilarious) c) SC2BW showmatches between progamers that were pro in Brood War d) showmatches between casters. e) showmatches between Blizzard employees (since you've said there were many in the audience)
Interviews with the players about their SC2 history would be awesome. Planned interviews are always interesting to watch, it gives more proximity to the players, and won't give poor, improvised answers.
Instead, when there weren't any games we got mainly the NASL title card, random shots of the people in the venue, or the far-too-long player introductions. I liked the idea of the introductions a lot (I loved it back in the TSL3 finals), but you really don't need to show every match they've won, and you especially DON'T need to show matches they've lost. Just show like 4 or 5 highlights of the best games they've played, with some quotes of the casters from those moments ("Wow, player X played beastly!", you've done some of that) and you're good. And please cut the application videos, they're obviously really shitty quality-wise and no one really cares.
The point is, people will watch NASL for the players and the live matches. Anything that doesn't involve the players or the live SC2 matches shouldn't happen, or should be minimized.
2. Please don't make the players fly from their countries just to lose two games in 20 minutes and be out of the tournament. It's really unfair to the amount of preparation involved.
Given that the first round of the tournament was a group stage, I wouldn't like to see that again in the finals. Instead, just make a loser's bracket. I'm fine with bo3s as long as you have some kind of second try to the players that lose. We all know how easy it is to lose two games just because you're not in the right mindset. Also, a loser's bracket is a lot better in creating epic comeback stories that people like to hear and talk about. As it is now, it's just a one way road to the first place.
All in all, a loser's bracket is fairer to the players, funnier to watch for the viewers, and better for the tournament. It gives you guys more content to broadcast and more quality games on your tournament for people to talk about.
3. Make some kind of map choice system for the matches. I'm not talking about this because I feel some of the maps are imbalanced for certain races, I don't and that shouldn't be relevant. What's important is to give the players some kind of choice over where they'll play the two matches that decide whether they stay in the tournament or not. All players just feel more comfortable in some maps than others. Having some kind of map veto in the beginning, and giving the map choice to the loser in the subsequent matches would be a lot fairer, if not only more interesting to watch, given that the viewers so far have watched 8 matches and only could see 3 maps.
This system is especially important if the finals are with single elimination, but it's also good to have with some kind of double elimination. Having people lose, and be eliminated automatically no less, just because they've felt less comfortable on a certain map than their opponent is not that fun to watch as a viewer and I can certainly understand why wouldn't be fun for the players.
The point is, when you have a $100,000 pool prize, players should be cut some slack, because they've already proven they deserve to be in the finals by beating some of the best players in the world in the group stages. Having some flexibility will help the players to perform better and to have much more interesting matches.
One note about what I really liked so far:
- That intro with all the players and their names is absolutely amazing. I can imagine you did that from the moment the players arrived at the venue, which gives very little time to film, edit, put the graphics, put the sound and stream it. That proves you can to absolutely awesome work in a little amount of time and under pressure. That was a really positive point. On a side note, please use the graphics designer that made that video on the rest of the stuff, like the graphics of the scores, the players cards (which were really subpar, with that Powerpoint-made steel pseudo-futuristic style that felt amateur), the posters, the venue, etc. It was truly amazing work and should not pass unnoticed. Also, that segment with the battlecruiser throwing that light ball thingamajig was also really cool. - The casters have been really great. Either at presenting the players, wasting some time that needs to be wasted in between matches, and of course at casting the games. Only Gretorp has been on a lower level, but he always was not that fluent so I didn't except the guy to improve substantially just like that. But overall, you've been great. But you can't really go wrong with Tastosis, can you
---
That's all I have for now. If I remember something else, I'll edit this post.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Getting 2 more booths would be about $10,000 in additional cost. Those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees and we don't have unlimited money.
You are so defensive...
The additional $10k would be an investment that would be worth it. It would make your tournament run more smoothly thus attracting more spectators and possible sponsors. It's already bad for the people watching on stream but I feel worse for the people at the venue having to sit there. But with being so defensive and how you are replying, it makes it seem like there's nothing you can do and that this is the NASL standard.
So if you want to come out to the next NASL finals, there's going to be still delays between games with un-efficient scheduling because "those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees". Just acknowledge the faults and realize some of the people criticizing and giving some feedback are not out to hurt NASL and hate on you guys but just like to see it improve.
On July 10 2011 01:13 Drlemur wrote: Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
The thing is, most companies have a product ready for market when they are asking money for it.
I find it strange that anyone would be willing to pay to watch people struggling with the very basics, when you could have just hired experienced and talented people from the start.
I don't pay someone to work on my car when they are not an auto mechanic with the expectation they will eventually learn how to be an auto mechanic by working on my car.
This is such a damn good post. Its up to NASL to fire the people behind this years production, and re-hire people willing to do the job correctly. If the IPL is more worth while, with a lesser player base, and a lesser prize pool, you know something is seriously wrong with the CEOs of the business.
On July 10 2011 01:13 Drlemur wrote: Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
The thing is, most companies have a product ready for market when they are asking money for it.
I find it strange that anyone would be willing to pay to watch people struggling with the very basics, when you could have just hired experienced and talented people from the start.
I don't pay someone to work on my car when they are not an auto mechanic with the expectation they will eventually learn how to be an auto mechanic by working on my car.
This is such a damn good post. Its up to NASL to fire the people behind this years production, and re-hire people willing to do the job correctly. If the IPL is more worth while, with a lesser player base, and a lesser prize pool, you know something is seriously wrong with the CEOs of the business.
and hire a PR guy... Xeris is so aggressive on the forums
On July 10 2011 02:21 Gurblechev wrote: The thing is, most companies have a product ready for market when they are asking money for it.
I find it strange that anyone would be willing to pay to watch people struggling with the very basics, when you could have just hired experienced and talented people from the start.
I don't pay someone to work on my car when they are not an auto mechanic with the expectation they will eventually learn how to be an auto mechanic by working on my car.
This is it exactly. When I paid my $25 for the NASL season 1 pass, it wasn't a training fee, or a donation to the education of the NASL. It was money paid for services offered.
On July 10 2011 02:04 FLuE wrote: I know to this day incontrol must just regret ever having been excited and express his excitement about the league. That has been held against him, and the NASL by all the haters from day one. "BUT INCONTROL SAID THIS WAS GOING TO BE AWESOME!!!!" Ya, he's also said Pizza is awesome, so what. You've never talked up anything in your life? Regardless of the hype I had reasonable expectations just knowing the fact that they were basically running a 3 hour daily TV show for 9 weeks, and basically building it up from the ground level. That is not an easy task, long hours, little pay, all to try to do something cool. I never fault people when I know the effort is there. If they were lazy or didn't care it is one thing, but CLEARLY this isn't the case.
So now, to conclude my long post because I'm tired of reading about complaints the last 24 hours,stating things over and over that we all agree with, NASL agrees with and recognizes(They have listened to the viewers and their comments EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, they aren't ignoring the fans), and that I personally also hope they improve on as well, I'm going to type out a list of stuff I liked about the NASL this season :
1 - I like the league setup and the weekly games. It reminds me of a regular season of a sporting event. I could tune in when I wanted to see my favorite players or chose to not watch that day. They were generally always on time, and I feel the longer format really allowed the cream to rise to the top. I liked that if I had something to do or missed games I could see that player the next week or tune in the next day. A more relaxed viewer approach than say an MLG weekend where I'm trying to sit around the computer for 48 straight hours.
2 - I liked that the longer format allowed me to get to know some players throughout the league. There are players I became a fan of because it was fun to watch them do well week after week and hear the interviews right after. You don't get that in online tournaments or quick weekend LAN events all the time, and it was cool. I also thought the long format allowed talented players to rise to the top, and the players that knew how to prepare each week for their opponents did well and that was cool to see and hear how players prepared each week(some a lot, some not at all).
3 - I liked the pregame they did before the matches when there were players involved I wanted to hear about. It was cool to do a "pregame" event just like they do for other sports. Some people hated this, I never understood why people didn't just tune in 30 minutes after the "start" time. Everything the NASL does tries to mimic what is done in an ACTUAL sports league, if people didn't pick up on that.
4 - The last 2 weeks of the league following the playoff scenarios, who was trying to get in for next year, who was on the bubble of getting knocked out was all really cool. It made each game that didn't seem as important really matter, and again reminded me of any other sports league.
5 - I like that the playoffs is a very cutthroat winner take all system. Sorry, I don't want to see Double Elimination all the time. I want to see win and move on, lose and go home. Whether it should be BO3/5/7 etc, that is up for debate and I think has a lot to do with working within time constraints that exist. But I'm sorry, the BS over double elimination... just don't lose and it doesn't matter. How many other sports do double elimination playoffs? World cup? NFL? NBA? NHL? Maybe a cricket league somewhere? I don't feel bad for the players either who get to take an awesome trip to California, play video games, sign autographs, and chill with other pro gamers. If you were to tell me I could get a $500 stipend, have a chance to play for $50k, and go to California I'm there but I might have to put up a bit of my own cash.... Hell I'd go to that if it was a single elimination BO1 rock/paper/scissor contest.
I ALWAYS FIND IT IRONIC WHEN FANS CALL SOMETHING UNFAIR THAT THE PLAYERS KNOW ABOUT AND DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING UNFAIR. The players knew the format and have no issues with it, I think people need to get a better understanding of what unfair actually is. Unfair would be all zergs have to win 1 game to win the series, and protoss and terran have to win 3.
6 - Things they did right at the finals so far : Although the game booths need some decoration, they at least have them. Remember MLG without them? "That's just Halo..." The casters are great and there is a variety of them. Mixing up all of them that are there is great, and it was awesome they got tastosis[9] involved and didn't get lazy and just have gretorp/incontrol on stage but brought in the big hitters. I think once the mic's were fixed Anna's interviews are good, kindof reminds me of the halftime NFL sideline reporter interviews. I liked the hype-up videos before each match including their youtube entry to get into the league(SEN LOL), perhaps just cut them down a bit but the idea is pretty cool and I liked being reminded of how the players got there and who they beat throughout the league. Again this is no different than how other sports do it, where you spend the week before the finals of a sporting event hearing about who the teams beat to get there. The Darkforce games were as entertaining as any SC2 I've seen to date. Those complaining about Double Elimination, that series was as epic as it was because you knew it was a foreign player trying to send a Korean home, not just to the losers bracket. Thought that was great. It's funny because most of the BO3/Single Elimination complaint are coming from the viewers, yet the players aren't complaining about it at all. Music they had going throughout was great.
Do I think there is plenty to work on? Sure. Just go read the last pages of this thread and the first 500 of NASL Day 1. But I also think the people who are doing this are working hard, they are trying to put together something great for eSports, they have assembled great players from around the world with a sick prize pool that is there for 3 more seasons, and at some point I think just crapping on someone over and over especially when they know about it is pointless. There is good here with this league and potential, sometimes you just have to step back, take a deep breath, and be reminded of what did go well and was enjoyable because there was plenty of it. If you had the option of taking the NASL as it was over the past few months or not having it at all I know I'd rather have enjoyed watching great games, some really funny moments, and an organization that wouldn't be doing this if they didn't want to try to add to SC2 and eSports.
Just wanted to try to sprinkle some positive in the middle of everything else.
/rant
Great post pretty much agree with everything you said. Not to mention a lot of people are complaining about stupid shit like too many Koreans...as if its the NASL's fault that foreigners suck and can't even beat mediocre Koreans? People complain about the format as if NASL is the only tourney in history to do single elim (which is the better format IMO). The only one who has a right to complain is Ret who had to face Puma in the first round. People keep bringing up MLG as if every one of their events up to Columbus wasn't pretty much a shitfest. This one boggles my mind the most...not to mention the NASL is actually giving players a damn good prize purse which no one seems to bring up yet is probably the most important point to the players themselves. 50k for first place compared to the pennies u get at MLG? Yea I think they'll take NASL's crappier production values and single elim format. They still have a lot to improve on but it was nowhere near the worst tourney in history like people are making it out to be and I'm looking forward to see how they improve in season 2.
On July 10 2011 01:13 Drlemur wrote: Everybody who appeared on camera did the expected great job: day9 was a particularly good emcee and all the casters: gretorp, incontrol, tasteless & artosis. The interviews were a little choppy, but generally good. It's hard to get used to interviewing shy nerds in a another language.
It felt like there wasn't enough behind-the-scenes staff holding things together. You need solid, ideally experienced people, running every little detail from sound, video, player management, environment management (set design, lighting design), streaming, etc. Obviously this is tough if you're working on a limited budget, but my guess was you'd need 3x-4x the staff that seemed to be there.
I think some attention to on-site entertainment would have been helpful. I think you really need an emcee who holds together the whole event. Music (e.g., a DJ) to play into and out of the games, videos, breaks. Some sense of excitement and an event on the ground. All season long, I've thought it funny that there is no "face" to NASL. I thought it was Incontrol for awhile, or maybe Gretorp? MLG has Sundance. Who is NASL? If the person generally running things doesn't like to be on camera -- find somebody who can.
I watch a lot of GSL and they really commit to production and looking like an event. That H.S. gymnasium isn't always packed, but on stream, you always feel like it's special. MLG does that awesomely. Homestory also achieved that in a different way (and was very sharp on technical elements). Dreamhack was a little less so, but NASL Season #1 didn't really even make it onto the map as an event.
It's going to take money to throw an event and it's tough because you need sponsors. I think somebody may have to gamble with borrowing money to put on something more awesome for Season #2 and hope that the sponsors follow. But that's the way the entertainment business works: big risks and big rewards.
Companies have to start somewhere. We will improve with every day that goes on. Next event will be better. Look at the first ever GSL and the first ever MLG, and the first ever any major LAN. You guys are expecting us to start off and be the same as GSL, which is backed by a company that has been running Starcraft events in Korea for years, and MLG, which has been around for years.
We've only been around for less than 6 months. Anyway, it's okay if you guys don't like us. We still <3 everyone.
The thing is, most companies have a product ready for market when they are asking money for it.
I find it strange that anyone would be willing to pay to watch people struggling with the very basics, when you could have just hired experienced and talented people from the start.
I don't pay someone to work on my car when they are not an auto mechanic with the expectation they will eventually learn how to be an auto mechanic by working on my car.
This is such a damn good post. Its up to NASL to fire the people behind this years production, and re-hire people willing to do the job correctly. If the IPL is more worth while, with a lesser player base, and a lesser prize pool, you know something is seriously wrong with the CEOs of the business.
and hire a PR guy... Xeris is so aggressive on the forums
Well, in his defense, I'd be aggressive too if I was worried about keeping my job, and was specifically in the public hot seat, even if he isnt the person to blame, he will still be the one to be blamed.
Why do you, as a consumer care about the prize pool? Players get salaried, and the top ones get enough from salaries and endorsements so as not to require much prize money whatsoever(Idra said this on SOTG or ITG, can't recall). I'm not ever going to be competing for the prize money, so it's of no impact to me.
I care about the player pool, which yes, can be impacted by the prize pool. However, DreamHack, MLG and HomeStory all had great player pools with much smaller prize pools.
I care about value for my dollar, which I don't feel I've had. Yesterday from a consumer standpoint was unacceptable.
On July 10 2011 02:31 Holcan wrote: Well, in his defense, I'd be aggressive too if I was worried about keeping my job, and was specifically in the public hot seat, even if he isnt the person to blame, he will still be the one to be blamed.
That just means you shouldn't be in charge of PR for anything either. That's not how PR works, you can't be aggressive towards your target audience, not even if they're being dicks, and especially not when they have legitimate concerns.
On July 10 2011 02:04 FLuE wrote: I know to this day incontrol must just regret ever having been excited and express his excitement about the league. That has been held against him, and the NASL by all the haters from day one. "BUT INCONTROL SAID THIS WAS GOING TO BE AWESOME!!!!" Ya, he's also said Pizza is awesome, so what. You've never talked up anything in your life? Regardless of the hype I had reasonable expectations just knowing the fact that they were basically running a 3 hour daily TV show for 9 weeks, and basically building it up from the ground level. That is not an easy task, long hours, little pay, all to try to do something cool. I never fault people when I know the effort is there. If they were lazy or didn't care it is one thing, but CLEARLY this isn't the case.
So now, to conclude my long post because I'm tired of reading about complaints the last 24 hours,stating things over and over that we all agree with, NASL agrees with and recognizes(They have listened to the viewers and their comments EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, they aren't ignoring the fans), and that I personally also hope they improve on as well, I'm going to type out a list of stuff I liked about the NASL this season :
1 - I like the league setup and the weekly games. It reminds me of a regular season of a sporting event. I could tune in when I wanted to see my favorite players or chose to not watch that day. They were generally always on time, and I feel the longer format really allowed the cream to rise to the top. I liked that if I had something to do or missed games I could see that player the next week or tune in the next day. A more relaxed viewer approach than say an MLG weekend where I'm trying to sit around the computer for 48 straight hours.
2 - I liked that the longer format allowed me to get to know some players throughout the league. There are players I became a fan of because it was fun to watch them do well week after week and hear the interviews right after. You don't get that in online tournaments or quick weekend LAN events all the time, and it was cool. I also thought the long format allowed talented players to rise to the top, and the players that knew how to prepare each week for their opponents did well and that was cool to see and hear how players prepared each week(some a lot, some not at all).
3 - I liked the pregame they did before the matches when there were players involved I wanted to hear about. It was cool to do a "pregame" event just like they do for other sports. Some people hated this, I never understood why people didn't just tune in 30 minutes after the "start" time. Everything the NASL does tries to mimic what is done in an ACTUAL sports league, if people didn't pick up on that.
4 - The last 2 weeks of the league following the playoff scenarios, who was trying to get in for next year, who was on the bubble of getting knocked out was all really cool. It made each game that didn't seem as important really matter, and again reminded me of any other sports league.
5 - I like that the playoffs is a very cutthroat winner take all system. Sorry, I don't want to see Double Elimination all the time. I want to see win and move on, lose and go home. Whether it should be BO3/5/7 etc, that is up for debate and I think has a lot to do with working within time constraints that exist. But I'm sorry, the BS over double elimination... just don't lose and it doesn't matter. How many other sports do double elimination playoffs? World cup? NFL? NBA? NHL? Maybe a cricket league somewhere? I don't feel bad for the players either who get to take an awesome trip to California, play video games, sign autographs, and chill with other pro gamers. If you were to tell me I could get a $500 stipend, have a chance to play for $50k, and go to California I'm there but I might have to put up a bit of my own cash.... Hell I'd go to that if it was a single elimination BO1 rock/paper/scissor contest.
I ALWAYS FIND IT IRONIC WHEN FANS CALL SOMETHING UNFAIR THAT THE PLAYERS KNOW ABOUT AND DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING UNFAIR. The players knew the format and have no issues with it, I think people need to get a better understanding of what unfair actually is. Unfair would be all zergs have to win 1 game to win the series, and protoss and terran have to win 3.
6 - Things they did right at the finals so far : Although the game booths need some decoration, they at least have them. Remember MLG without them? "That's just Halo..." The casters are great and there is a variety of them. Mixing up all of them that are there is great, and it was awesome they got tastosis[9] involved and didn't get lazy and just have gretorp/incontrol on stage but brought in the big hitters. I think once the mic's were fixed Anna's interviews are good, kindof reminds me of the halftime NFL sideline reporter interviews. I liked the hype-up videos before each match including their youtube entry to get into the league(SEN LOL), perhaps just cut them down a bit but the idea is pretty cool and I liked being reminded of how the players got there and who they beat throughout the league. Again this is no different than how other sports do it, where you spend the week before the finals of a sporting event hearing about who the teams beat to get there. The Darkforce games were as entertaining as any SC2 I've seen to date. Those complaining about Double Elimination, that series was as epic as it was because you knew it was a foreign player trying to send a Korean home, not just to the losers bracket. Thought that was great. It's funny because most of the BO3/Single Elimination complaint are coming from the viewers, yet the players aren't complaining about it at all. Music they had going throughout was great.
Do I think there is plenty to work on? Sure. Just go read the last pages of this thread and the first 500 of NASL Day 1. But I also think the people who are doing this are working hard, they are trying to put together something great for eSports, they have assembled great players from around the world with a sick prize pool that is there for 3 more seasons, and at some point I think just crapping on someone over and over especially when they know about it is pointless. There is good here with this league and potential, sometimes you just have to step back, take a deep breath, and be reminded of what did go well and was enjoyable because there was plenty of it. If you had the option of taking the NASL as it was over the past few months or not having it at all I know I'd rather have enjoyed watching great games, some really funny moments, and an organization that wouldn't be doing this if they didn't want to try to add to SC2 and eSports.
Just wanted to try to sprinkle some positive in the middle of everything else.
/rant
Great post pretty much agree with everything you said. Not to mention a lot of people are complaining about stupid shit like too many Koreans...as if its the NASL's fault that foreigners suck and can't even beat mediocre Koreans? People complain about the format as if NASL is the only tourney in history to do single elim (which is the better format IMO). The only one who has a right to complain is Ret who had to face Puma in the first round. People keep bringing up MLG as if every one of their events up to Columbus wasn't pretty much a shitfest. This one boggles my mind the most...not to mention the NASL is actually giving players a damn good prize purse which no one seems to bring up yet is probably the most important point to the players themselves. 50k for first place compared to the pennies u get at MLG? Yea I think they'll take NASL's crappier production values and single elim format. They still have a lot to improve on but it was nowhere near the worst tourney in history like people are making it out to be and I'm looking forward to see how they improve in season 2.
Yeah I don't get the Koreans complaint either. They've played well, so they absolutely deserve to be here. Although to be honest there was a bit of bad luck on how the brackets turned out, placing every foreigner against a Korean. I'm sure that won't happen next time, I mean what are the odds?
On July 10 2011 02:19 MrCon wrote:Anyway, some "problems" here are very nitpicky. When your solution to a problem is "put more money", you know that your solution is not good (for instance the "you can JUST add 2 booths". This "just" is what, 2000$ ?). There's already a lot of room for improvement with what they already have, asking them to spend more money is not the way to go imo.
I would argue the counter, that throwing money at the problem is one of NASL's biggest issues; from the start the concern has been with the prize pool, with the set, with the equipment, with doing things like they're producing a feature television production and throwing money to clutter up the screen and detract from the thing we want to watch, the games. How many "TaKe where are you" comments do we need to hammer the point home, most people aren't tuning in to see someone take a huge cardboard check, we want to see games.
Where the pendulum swung last night and all of the apologists popped up talking about how the NASL was 'getting its act together,' the one thing* that changed was the length of the games increasing which completely shelved all of the production nonsense in favor of the two best commentators in the game calling SC2 for what seemed like hours on end, which is all most of us were tuning in for in the first place.
I know a lot of the downtime was alotted to projector porblems. But we waited for half an hour between matches looking at the crowed. Also the intro highlight videos seemed to be way too long. GSL has like 1minutes but they just go on forever. Overall I wasnt happy with the production at all but the biggest problem was it was like 30mins of SC per 3-4hours of air time.
The NASL just swalled more than they can handle. They failed to satisfy the high expectation that came with the incredibly prize money. They would've done better by decreasing the prize money and upping the production value, assuming that the high prize money was not a deal with their sponsors.
I'm sorry guys, Yesterday I was in the dark about what has been going as much as you guys. I am not not at the event and the people I get my information and updates from were busy all day at the event trying to fix things and running the show. Right after the event finished I passed out because I did not get any sleep the night before so I did not get the chance to talk to anyone till this morning.
Basically what happened yesterday is as follows: The night before the event started we were doing some testing and preparing the rightmost projector suffered catastrophic failure and was unusable. We immediately overnight a replacement that arrived first thing in this morning. Installation took extensive time and thus caused a hour delay to the premiere. Additionally, this last minute projector replacement meant we did not have an opportunity to extensively test the projection system. As it turns out, the venue projection fails to hook up to the stream output. As a last minute solution we placed the stream system on follow to the stream observer. There are feedbacks regarding this caused jerky camera motion, so we changed to a dedicated observer for rest of the cast. Throughout the day they also worked with some Justin.TV people(Gunrun and some others) to help optimize the stream quality and to fix the audio.
As for stream and audio interviews, the projectors there were not cooperating very well so there had to be two separate streams, One for the In-house stream and one for the online one. The audio for the in-house stream got fixed and balanced but there is something going on between the upstream and jtv stream which is causing the issues. We think the problem is something about the FMLE not liking using the AAC codec for audio on the stream output which is causing the imbalance. The crew pulled a all nighter to try to fix and improve everything. Hopefully everything will be great today and I will try to keep you guys updated more~
This is a nonsense excuse. What is "the venue projection fails to hook up to the stream output" supposed to mean? In what way does it "fail"?
There is no technical reason that one observer's PC cannot be used to display the projection as well as the stream.
The issue apparently is that their staff do not understand how to do something like that. It's a problem with staff. They will never fix their problems until they hire some people capable of doing their jobs properly.
They are trying very hard to avoid admitting they--and their hiring decisions--are solely responsible for all the problems.
MLG had the integrity to take responsibility for their human errors and as I understand it people responsible were fired and replaced with people who could do a better job. That is why there was such a big difference in quality between Dallas and Columbus.
On July 10 2011 01:53 toastnbutter wrote: Here's a response from NASL's reddit account:
I'm sorry guys, Yesterday I was in the dark about what has been going as much as you guys. I am not not at the event and the people I get my information and updates from were busy all day at the event trying to fix things and running the show. Right after the event finished I passed out because I did not get any sleep the night before so I did not get the chance to talk to anyone till this morning.
Basically what happened yesterday is as follows: The night before the event started we were doing some testing and preparing the rightmost projector suffered catastrophic failure and was unusable. We immediately overnight a replacement that arrived first thing in this morning. Installation took extensive time and thus caused a hour delay to the premiere. Additionally, this last minute projector replacement meant we did not have an opportunity to extensively test the projection system. As it turns out, the venue projection fails to hook up to the stream output. As a last minute solution we placed the stream system on follow to the stream observer. There are feedbacks regarding this caused jerky camera motion, so we changed to a dedicated observer for rest of the cast. Throughout the day they also worked with some Justin.TV people(Gunrun and some others) to help optimize the stream quality and to fix the audio.
As for stream and audio interviews, the projectors there were not cooperating very well so there had to be two separate streams, One for the In-house stream and one for the online one. The audio for the in-house stream got fixed and balanced but there is something going on between the upstream and jtv stream which is causing the issues. We think the problem is something about the FMLE not liking using the AAC codec for audio on the stream output which is causing the imbalance. The crew pulled a all nighter to try to fix and improve everything. Hopefully everything will be great today and I will try to keep you guys updated more~
This is a nonsense excuse. What is "the venue projection fails to hook up to the stream output" supposed to mean? In what way does it "fail"?
There is no technical reason that one observer's PC cannot be used to display the projection as well as the stream.
The issue apparently is that their staff do not understand how to do something like that. It's a problem with staff. They will never fix their problems until they hire some people capable of doing their jobs properly.
They are trying very hard to avoid admitting they--and their hiring decisions--are solely responsible for all the problems.
MLG had the integrity to take responsibility for their human errors and as I understand it people responsible were fired and replaced with people who could do a better job. That is why there was such a big difference in quality between Dallas and Columbus.
MLG has always been a great event it was mostly streaming problems holding them back, now that they have the satelite trucks we should hope it stays as great as Columbus was.
I really just want to see one person from NASL come out and do as Sundance has done and swallow their pride and say 'we screwed up, this is what we're gonna do to make up for it'. That would make me feel like my $25 wasn't wasted. I paid to support the growth of eSports, and so far NASL hasn't grown eSports.
I'm not talking some vague 'next event 3 months from now will be better', either. I'm talking give something back for those who paid for your learning experiences. It's good customer service. And that's what you need to learn, NASL.
On July 10 2011 02:04 RedDragon571 wrote: NASL, looks like its failing due to nepotism. These are the type of problems when you hire audio and production people based upon who they know and not what they know. I personally will not be paying for NASL until it gets it act together. This is an embarassment for E-sports and honestly, I think its good for tournaments with poor production to fail. NASL doesn't deserve our wellfare and should go the way of the dodo bird. The idea they can fix these problems and improve is silly, considering the problems are rooted deep in the organization itself. The audio, production and organization are just symptoms of a larger problem. My advice is don't hire your friends, hire your people based upon knowledge and experience.
This is exactly, 100%, the problem with NASL from which all other issues stem.
It's not that they are understaffed or underfunded. They could have hundreds more people working on it and as long as key jobs are held by people incapable of doing them the quality will remain embarrassingly bad.
I'd also say, a big part of NASL's problem is that we don't know how things work. We don't know who their spokesman is, we don't know who their sound guy is, etc. At MLG they were very open about who did what, and they had multiple staff people active on twitter and TL talking through their issues, struggles, and progress.
I was frustrated not Just that it was a best of 3 single elim, it is compounded by the fact that the first 2 maps selected were 2 player maps, so the games were less likely to be macro games. I for one would have liked to see more macro games from the players. I couldn't understand why Whoever made the map selection and system of making it rigid 3 maps with no Veto, I dont know what he was thinking..Its almost as if you wanted fast games??
After the months of tournament, single elimination is the best way to do it, but I do think a bo5 format would be better for both the viewers and the competitors after watching a player progress for months.
Map selection... very strange. I definitely think the next map should always be losers choice.
Seeding the open bracket winner against the #1 seed, also very strange. It would make more sense I think to match the #14 seed against the #1 seed, and the open bracket winner against the #15 seed. The rest gets seeded normally.
The casters are fine, InControl and Gretorp are actually really good casters, in my opinion. I'm not saying they're as good as the others, necessarily, but people bashing on them because of blind fanboyism is stupid.
And as for all the technical issues, none of the other much-touted tournaments started off getting everything perfect, I'm sure. Based on the way NASL has gotten better since Day 1 of the tournament, I think they'll work hard to improve, and NASL 2 and 3 will be amazing.
edit: Oh, I do think keeping people up-to-date on what's happening when there ARE technical difficulties and things is very important, though. When all we can do is sit back and twiddle our thumbs waiting to see what happens, getting a message every 15 minutes or so telling us what's going on does a lot to disrupt any negative feelings.
I have been a paying customer and, more importantly, big fan for the entire season. I was slightly disappointed with the Finals (day one) proceedings. Allow me to elaborate:
- There was way, way too much downtime. Perhaps, moving forward, this could become a two day event? Or a double elim/Bo5?
- The production difficulties were distracting to say the least. Obviously you guys know this but those kinds of things need to be ironed out days ahead of time.
- The player intros are boring, overly long and completely unnecessary. Maybe show them before the Finals but definitely not before every match.
- Might I suggest an interview room or at least an interview "area"? The interviews were ok at best and disasters at worse. It just seemed really awkward up on stage.
On the positive side: amazing games; great casting (when we could hear it); eye-candy.
With some polishing, this could become a premiere event. You have a long way to go though. I'll be back next season with great hopes.
On July 10 2011 02:31 Holcan wrote: Well, in his defense, I'd be aggressive too if I was worried about keeping my job, and was specifically in the public hot seat, even if he isnt the person to blame, he will still be the one to be blamed.
That just means you shouldn't be in charge of PR for anything either. That's not how PR works, you can't be aggressive towards your target audience, not even if they're being dicks, and especially not when they have legitimate concerns.
Well that just shows there is an inherent problem with the NASL CEOs decision making capabilities, which is probably that hiring friends is not the best way to provide a quality product.
I have been a paying customer and, more importantly, big fan for the entire season. I was slightly disappointed with the Finals (day one) proceedings. Allow me to elaborate:
- There was way, way too much downtime. Perhaps, moving forward, this could become a two day event? Or a double elim/Bo5?
- The production difficulties were distracting to say the least. Obviously you guys know this but those kinds of things need to be ironed out days ahead of time.
- The player intros are boring, overly long and completely unnecessary. Maybe show them before the Finals but definitely not before every match.
- Might I suggest an interview room or at least an interview "area"? The interviews were ok at best and disasters at worse. It just seemed really awkward up on stage.
On the positive side: amazing games; great casting (when we could hear it); eye-candy.
With some polishing, this could become a premiere event. You have a long way to go though. I'll be back next season with great hopes.
Yes Please abolish the overly long intros they are not entertaining and piss you off because you just want to see the content. For an entire day of air time there was not much content... lol
I will try to give some constructive critisism as well.
Although I have no behind the scene knowledge on NASL and can therefore not base my arguments on solid facts, I will have to rely on feelings intead.
For me, it looks like the biggest problem is that there is no real expertism in the NASL. Pretty much the only faces I know from the NASL are the casters. The main casters being Gretorp and iNcontrol. Altough I love them very much they had no expertise in casting. I think iNcontrol did a few casts and Gretorp had an awesome stream. Even though when they started casting the NASL it felt like they were noobs when it came down to the hardcore casting (no offense). Gretorp himself said multible times that he was learning how to cast on the "fly". Many times they where in situations that would most probably have been handled different by more experient casters. Which isnt weird in any way since you cant expect someone to do everything perfect when he doesnt have the experience.
The point that I am trying to make is that it feels like this isnt only true for the casters. It very much feels like everybody isnt really experienced (with exception of the guy that made the intro's of the players and stuff, NASL does know how to make a spoiler video). And I think that when the NASL would bring in some more experienced people it would all go a lot smoother.
(Also the opening felt like there was no producer, but that has already been coffered)
I don't think 4 booths are necessary at all. 2 is fine as long as they are big enough. It's not as if they are on a TV schedule like GSL or have 105057 players like MLG.
Just have 2 nice size booths where the players set up their own station during the intros so that as soon as they are done the games can start. As soon as the games send have them take their shit out and get the next grp going.
Jibba pretty much nailed it, and no i am not saying this just because he is "mod lol", forget that he is a moderator for a second and realize that what he wrote was true
RedDragon571 Is also right, this screams of a situation where friends were hired instead of people who are qualified and have experience for this type of work. It is eerily similar to how the invites to the players were done, Artosis love him like a brother, but should never have gotten a invite (as a player, as a caster he is second to none) and there were topics about this very issue when there was all that drama about it.
Like Jibba wrote, i dont believe NASL is lacking funds or equipment, they lack the people to use this stuff correctly. It is shocking to think that the Jinro vs Idra showmatch is the best production has ever been for them. It definatly has not become better that is for sure.
What i imagine production is like a bunch of 20 something nice guys, friends, who gather up and simply go on google and type "what is the best projector for a live event?", "what is the best soundboard?", "what are the best speakers?" etc etc and they simply just went out and bought all this stuff, it arrived and nobody knew how any of it really worked.
I mean none of that as offense, your reaction to all this is probably the same reaction i, or 99% of us here on TL would have if we got complicated equipment we did not understand.
"eSports" does not happen with sheer will or throwing money at it, it happens when you have qualified people with experience doing their craft.
NASL is like some rich kid who bought the best Logitech mouse, the best Razor headset, the absolute best computer, and came to a tournament in a Armani suit driving a Enzo Ferrari car, flipping Idra and MC off and skateboarding his ass towards the stage with 9 supermodels around him.... despite all this he would still suck and be terrible.
Just like you need qualified and great players for SC2, you also need qualified and experienced people for behind the scenes production.
The thing I notice the most is the sound issues, yesterday the sound was too much to the left and sometimes it's too high and sometimes you can barely hear what someone is saying.
Like now when Artosis presented the players you could hear everything that Day9 very clear while the thing you wanted to hear (The presentation of the players, Artosis) was very low and got over shadowed by Day9.
Also now Day9's voice is rly high while Incontrols voice is normal
On July 10 2011 03:14 JoeAWESOME wrote: Also now Day9's voice is rly high while Incontrols voice is normal
Day9 is a wonderfully expressive caster and alayst. But he also has room to grow. One of the best things he could do is to learn to control his volume. He can learn to amp the intensity in his voice without raising volume to the point where the sound team has to scramble. This seemed to be a problem for him at Dreamhack too.
In live chat they have gunrun moding he hasnt given any info and they even have someone in red chat trying to reduce trolling lol! Ok dont fix your production and audio problems... just get someone to try to silence trolls hhaaha
On July 10 2011 03:14 JoeAWESOME wrote: Also now Day9's voice is rly high while Incontrols voice is normal
Day9 is a wonderfully expressive caster and alayst. But he also has room to grow. One of the best things he could do is to learn to control his volume. He can learn to amp the intensity in his voice without raising volume to the point where the sound team has to scramble. This seemed to be a problem for him at Dreamhack too.
On July 10 2011 03:14 JoeAWESOME wrote: Also now Day9's voice is rly high while Incontrols voice is normal
Day9 is a wonderfully expressive caster and alayst. But he also has room to grow. One of the best things he could do is to learn to control his volume. He can learn to amp the intensity in his voice without raising volume to the point where the sound team has to scramble. This seemed to be a problem for him at Dreamhack too.
I don't like how extremely over the top day9 can be when he casts. I mean on his dailies he's pretty mellow, then when he casts at a big event he seems to try too hard.
As for NASL, you really need to cut the fluff. Most people just want to watch the games and don't want to spend 8+ hours watching only a few games. Also, as has been said, the sound really ought to improve for such a major tournament.
Other than that though, I would just say everything else people are complaining about is nitpicky. Get your shit together next season.
I will still say that the net result of NASL has still definately been good. We still see some great games and the players are earning some dough. It could just be a lot better.
Just tuned in and my god the sound quality is bad, one sec im turning my sound down next back but then getting my ears blown out. Plus traveling around half the world to play for 10 mins is stupid, please open your eyes and look at how other tournys shuchs as mlg/dh are doing it.
On July 10 2011 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote: Ret #1 seed gets bounced out in 10 minutes from the 16th and he's out of the tournament.. I have some qualms with that
The audio was terrible throughout day1 and the delays between matches were stupid long.
Kinda agree. Needs a losers bracket or something of that sort that gives people a second chance. Being #1 after 9 weeks of games (or what was it) then being out of the tournament in 15 mins is not that cool.
About the complaints on production issues , I didnt really see first day so I cant comment :p
I am sitting here with volume super low since the sound quality really is too terrible, thinking about muting it but then again I really like the commentating.
I dislike how the open tournament winner is matched up against the 1st seed. It doesn't really make sense to me, since the winner of that is pretty much guaranteed to be a strong player. Also, since the open tournament was played after the playoffs, gives Ret even less time to prepare for his opponent than everyone else.
On July 10 2011 03:54 Adsee wrote: I dislike how the open tournament winner is matched up against the 1st seed. It doesn't really make sense to me, since the winner of that is pretty much guaranteed to be a strong player. Also, since the open tournament was played after the playoffs, gives Ret even less time to prepare for his opponent than everyone else.
Plus the open winner gets to get into the big tournament without going through the 9 weeks of matches that everyone else did. It just seems like the open winner has an unfair advantage.
Yeah, I don't understand why puma gets to qualify for next season AND play in the finals. If he ends up winning the tourney, that would be really annoying for the other players, especially since puma didn't need to play the first 9 weeks.
I wanted to address many people saying why do we complain when it is all free even if you didn't pay for HD pass. This is way wrong thinking. Do you think they have a free stream for lulz? No, it is to show those viewers that they should buy a HD pass. Or it is too show adds to them. Or it is to show viewer numbers to their current or future sponsors.
So while the HD viewers do get more to say about this we others are almost as important.
On July 10 2011 04:04 MechKing wrote: Yeah, I don't understand why puma gets to qualify for next season AND play in the finals. If he ends up winning the tourney, that would be really annoying for the other players, especially since puma didn't need to play the first 9 weeks.
On July 10 2011 03:54 Adsee wrote: I dislike how the open tournament winner is matched up against the 1st seed. It doesn't really make sense to me, since the winner of that is pretty much guaranteed to be a strong player. Also, since the open tournament was played after the playoffs, gives Ret even less time to prepare for his opponent than everyone else.
Plus the open winner gets to get into the big tournament without going through the 9 weeks of matches that everyone else did. It just seems like the open winner has an unfair advantage.
Open winners plays as many games, is not allowed to lose any of them and does not have time to prepare for each match and opponent. He has more then earned his place among the top 16. And him winning his ro16 match so easily only confirms it was done well.
I like the concept of a 'spartan' stage, and think it can work. It almost gives the event a theatrical feel. In fact, it might be far less expensive to book an actual theatre than rent an entire convention hall plus the equipment. Most decent theatres have lighting grids, sound boards, and a lot of the extra infrastructure you're spending a small fortune on. You can even hire their technicians and stage crew to help things run smoothly.
The cost of taking an entirely blank space and giving it character is brutally expensive. Until you can afford it, don't.
I'm not sure why you're doing this in Ontario, California versus LA. The location of a multi-day event is very important. I'm not sure what kind of spaces are available in LA, or how expensive they are, but this seems like a poor managerial decision.
The coordination of all design is poorly, poorly thought out. The sponsorship banner not being flush mounted to the surface of the desk, for example, just looks sloppy.
The booths look overbuilt -- the windows are far too small to get reasonable camera shots of the players, and the the trim on all the furnishing, including the casting desk, is inexplicably bulky.
There should be low level lighting in the booths. Not only will you be able to capture the players, but it will be harder for the players to see the audience, in the darkness.
You can be 'minimalistic' -- personally, I think the elaborate GSL sets are corny -- but the less you have, the cleaner and more consistent all the design has to be.
The person operating the camera should be fired. He is singlehandedly ruining your entire broadcast with incompetence. There are moments were it looks like some is lazily bumping the camera, jumping around and vibrating the camera ... it's betrays a lackadasical, unprofessional attitude towards his responsibility.
You also need cameras in far better positions for shots. Whoever was responsible for this had obviously never composed a shot or done camera set-ups in their lives.
Obviously, the audio is an issue. I don't know how to fix it.
My recommendation: Hire a stage manager, a stage/set designer, a graphic designer (not just production guys that know how to use photoshop) and an event planner to help design and manage your next event. The oversights and kind of mistakes being made have more to do with a lack of coordination and accountability than actual dedication or effort.
On July 10 2011 03:54 Adsee wrote: I dislike how the open tournament winner is matched up against the 1st seed. It doesn't really make sense to me, since the winner of that is pretty much guaranteed to be a strong player. Also, since the open tournament was played after the playoffs, gives Ret even less time to prepare for his opponent than everyone else.
Plus the open winner gets to get into the big tournament without going through the 9 weeks of matches that everyone else did. It just seems like the open winner has an unfair advantage.
Open winners plays as many games, is not allowed to lose any of them and does not have time to prepare for each match and opponent. He has more then earned his place among the top 16. And him winning his ro16 match so easily only confirms it was done well.
I'm not upset that he's in the finals, I'm just upset that the first seed is rewarded by having to play a player that would most likely be better/just as good as the 15th seed yet have even less time to prepare for the match.
While the format would make sense if all the players had to qualify for the league, it is obvious that Ret got one of the hardest match ups for the final and had the least time to prepare for his games. At the current stage of this league,, I just think that the first seed is not being adequately rewarded for his high positioning during the group stages. It doesn't even make sense to compete for that position, Ret would have been better off just throwing a game or two on purpose.
On July 10 2011 04:30 Butigroove wrote: Anyone calling Xeris an amateur at hosting tournaments clearly has no fucking clue what has gone on in the NA scene for the past 13 years.
Somtimes It makes me rage too much to read TL, nowadays.
Actually, enlighten me ... what tournaments has Xeris hosted over the past 13 years? Because not all experience is created equal, to be honest.
Running a tournament is a lot different from running a stage show.
To everyone talking about Ret being out of the tourney in the first 30 minutes: Everyone but one has to lose, it is bound to happen. While he maybe shouldn't have faced Puma, it's done. It would have been better for a bo5 or bo7 though. It isn't like the players have to rush for the next match, at most these guys are playing 4 series with up to a days break!
Because every game is being casted they have to keep to some kind of schedule, this is not like some other tournaments where they have huge pools and hundreds of games to be played within a 3 day weekend, thus plenty of options for casting games. It sucks that there are really long breaks after series, it would be nice if there was a set amount of time from the end of one series. for example : Puma vs Squirtle just finished, the next pair should have XX minutes to get prepped, set up etc.
Thankfully the sound problems have been fixed for the most part, some small problems with the mobile mics.
Cameras still seem a bit shaky, considering how far away they have to be from the stage and the amount they are zoomed, a breeze makes it look like a hurricane, not much can be done about that.
I personally was critical (and angry) about several things with yesterdays cast, today is 100 times better so far. I don't mind the opening round videos (once, not every series) because I did not watch the season due to not liking the casters, and was looking forward to seeing Day[9], Tasteless and Artosis taking over for the finals. So far, in order to be fair to all the casters, the grouping of them isn't terrible but I would like to see more of the "Named" casters.
The Maps, please adopt the loser pick for the future. Before the end of the day yesterday, I never wanted to see another match on those maps. Thankfully today has different maps but having set maps again will probably provide the same response.
Sometimes InControl just isn't audible at all while I could hear day9 at a normal volume all the time, it felt like he just wasn't talking into the microphone which is really annoying.
And please, reduce the time between games OR make the games AT LEAST a bo7, waiting 40 minutes between games for a bo3 is ridiculous. The waiting time is 3-5 minutes at the GSL, I mean, I know they're Korean there and do everything faster and all, but doing it within 10 minutes should be more than doable. When you show a WAY TOO LONG hype video (10 minutes), an interview (5 minutes) AND have to just show a loading screen for 20 minutes it's just too much.
And seriously, SOUND PLEASE, the volume alternation is so bad to the point where it just barely matters how great the games are, it's so hard to enjoy them when you can't hear one caster but just hear mumbling, or when you have to turn up your volume to 200% normal volume to make out anything at all. This is really a major issue atm and it's probably been said a 100 times, but it has to be fixed.
What Incontrol just said about a coinflip between Moon vs July is wrong. What July did is made roaches and Moon didn't scout it and instead made just drones and lost. A coinflip is luck based and gut feeling based ONLY. For example I have an overlord in a southern base position. At 6 minutes I move it in and scout a pylon, you take my overlord down with two stalkers I scout nothing. However there was a stargate at the northern part. That is a coinflip, either I scout north or south.
HERE perfect example Moon vs July game 2. The scouting positions are random therefore a coinflip. July gets the scout on the natural due to positions and the spawn coinflip results, but Moon doesn't.
i knwo you have a schedule up, but please tell us when the next match is scheduled to start. Don't just say, "we'll be back soon." something like, "we'll be back in 45 minutes," would be much more helpful and considerate to those watching at home.
Oh, there we have it. The players can look almost directly at the monitor.
On top of the sound issues, scheduling, and intro videos, this has to be the hugest blunder of all. Wow.
when you thought it couldn't get any worse, damn that sucks
Do you really think this is a big deal? The angle is so tight the player can't really see anything. He would have to to completely turn his head and sit taller to just to get a good glance at the monitor, making it completely obvious that there he is cheating. There is a camera on them 24/7, the player would have to be an idiot. Even if he did this, he is unlikely to see anything helpful, and it would be hard to even see from that tight angle. Stop making big deals out of nothing.
Edit: Also, for people bitching about schedule.
This schedule was put out on June 2nd. It's hardly a secret.
Oh, there we have it. The players can look almost directly at the monitor.
On top of the sound issues, scheduling, and intro videos, this has to be the hugest blunder of all. Wow.
when you thought it couldn't get any worse, damn that sucks
Do you really think this is a big deal? The angle is so tight the player can't really see anything. He would have to to completely turn his head and sit taller to just to get a good glance at the monitor, making it completely obvious that there he is cheating. There is a camera on them 24/7, the player would have to be an idiot. Even if he did this, he is unlikely to see anything helpful, and it would be hard to even see from that tight angle. Stop making big deals out of nothing.
It would be pretty hard to see the caster's monitors, considering the distance from the booth to the casting desk, plus how narrow the windows in the booth are.
But yeah, they should do something about that. Can't you get fins/shields for monitors (they're usually for cutting down glare).
I don't know if this already was discussed. Did you notice that they share "NASLcasterA", "NASLcasterB" accounts for all casters, i.e. gretorp, incontrol, day9, tasteless, artosis? I think before grand finals, they used them also for other casters? Were they warned or blocked for account sharing by Blizzard?
If we look at the format, i don't think there is anything wrong with the Bo3 in round 16, but it should extend, so that round of 8 is Bo5 (TSL 3 style). I think that a double elimination would give us too many games (not enough time to cast all?), and if that is the case, then the TSL format is better. The Bo3 in round af 8, seems a bit anticlimactic to be honest. Hope it helps, I love watching the NASL
I love watching the matches, but I can't compliment NASL for the production value of the stream. The cutting between scenes is the worst I have seen, the interviews are bad (by uninformed interviewers), the sound quality and levels of onstage stuff is not good enough and the observer is overdramatic with his cursor movement distracting the focus from the casters to his pointing.
Other than that I really like the overall setup of the tournament and I appreciate the level of play.
"Hey Matt, I'm Lindsay. So how long have you been doing Starcraft?" - Answers "EXCELLENT!!"
Ok, I've been one of the people who has been supporting NASL through all the hiccups and such, but I just have to say this ad spam has to stop. I don't run an adblocker because I like to support streamers/e-sports, but they're running ads during these interviews, and just in the last 15 minutes I have seen 5 ads. Why can't they just run the ads during actual downtime instead of interrupting the interviews which can actually be interesting?
If they are going to have interviews during intermissions, atleast have someone who has an idea of what SC2 is, asking col.drewbie what his favorite team was, was dumb.
On July 10 2011 05:29 SonKiE wrote: how many nasl events have you been to? ~ generic blond girl
Rachel and Anna are awkward sometimes but at least they know what they're talking about. This was just a whole new level of embarrassment. Get it together NASL.
On July 10 2011 05:30 NicoLoco wrote: I love watching the matches, but I can't compliment NASL for the production value of the stream. The cutting between scenes is the worst I have seen, the interviews are bad (by uninformed interviewers), the sound quality and levels of onstage stuff is not good enough and the observer is overdramatic with his cursor movement distracting the focus from the casters to his pointing.
Other than that I really like the overall setup of the tournament and I appreciate the level of play.
I totally agree.
I don't think it has anything to do with being cheap or having the wrong people, or people not trying. The players and actual games are great.
The truth is, the event seems haphazardly coordinated and managed. They're just not prepared.
i keep getting a papa john's ad, and after the ad the stream never comes back. it's really frustrating b/c even if i refresh the page i get the papa john's ad.
and i don't know who was observing the july/moon series but it was very chaotic and borderline spastic. there's no reason to keep shoving around the view, when the roach battle taking place hasn't moved from the ramp for the past 15 seconds. let us watch the micro, if you have the production tab open we can keep up with the macro too. moving away from the final battle of a game to show me lings streaming in or some other nonsense is pointless and counterproductive. just let me watch the battle with some healthbars.
On July 10 2011 05:30 NicoLoco wrote: I love watching the matches, but I can't compliment NASL for the production value of the stream. The cutting between scenes is the worst I have seen, the interviews are bad (by uninformed interviewers), the sound quality and levels of onstage stuff is not good enough and the observer is overdramatic with his cursor movement distracting the focus from the casters to his pointing.
Other than that I really like the overall setup of the tournament and I appreciate the level of play.
I totally agree.
I don't think it has anything to do with being cheap or having the wrong people, or people not trying. The players and actual games are great.
The truth is, the event seems haphazardly coordinated and managed.
They need someone to step back and direct the whole thing, no one seems to actually be sensibly organising and co-ordinating like you say. They just decided "This would be cool" "this would be cool", and then they threw it all into their event and thought it would work, but it really doesn't.
Honestly they're trying to hard to impress the audience.
I think everybody would have been happier if the games started with all the casters talking before the match, during the match, and to the players after the matches.
These intro videos and interviews are all too egregious and/or embarrassing to watch. I'd much rather have iNcontrol trolling the whole time.
On July 10 2011 05:30 NicoLoco wrote: I love watching the matches, but I can't compliment NASL for the production value of the stream. The cutting between scenes is the worst I have seen, the interviews are bad (by uninformed interviewers), the sound quality and levels of onstage stuff is not good enough and the observer is overdramatic with his cursor movement distracting the focus from the casters to his pointing.
Other than that I really like the overall setup of the tournament and I appreciate the level of play.
I totally agree.
I don't think it has anything to do with being cheap or having the wrong people, or people not trying. The players and actual games are great.
The truth is, the event seems haphazardly coordinated and managed.
They need someone to step back and direct the whole thing, no one seems to actually be sensibly organising and co-ordinating like you say. They just decided "This would be cool" "this would be cool", and then they threw it all into their event and thought it would work, but it really doesn't.
Yes. There needs to be that one person that is responsible for everything, defines expectations for everyone and tells people how to do their job.
He should be the guy in the camera man's face, telling him to stop fiddling with the fucking camera;
or the guy that says, "Interviewing the audience is a fun idea, but let's send out Gretorp or someone the fans want to meet instead of Stacey-whoever-she-is."
On July 10 2011 05:42 Gamegene wrote: Honestly they're trying to hard to impress the audience.
I think everybody would have been happier if the games started with all the casters talking before the match, during the match, and to the players after the matches.
These intro videos and interviews are all too egregious and/or embarrassing to watch. I'd much rather have iNcontrol trolling the whole time.
Yeah, man. It seems like they took the GomTV-model and just thought they'd ad that "beauty pageant meets nerd with no social skills" twist to it. In addition to not actually executing it well from a technical point of view..
The time between games keeps me tuning out and missing the first minutes of each game.
I find these interviews with the blond chick EXTREMELY EXTREMELY painful to watch. She's made so many facepalm errors that my face is bloody. Her, "How many years have you been coming to NASL live events," "How many years have you been playing with Starcraft?" and forgetting the three races is an extreme turn off and is giving my pre-pubescent hormones many mixed signals. Get Anna out there or just cut these interviews. I hope I am not the only one who feels this way.
On July 10 2011 05:46 Gamegene wrote: "Do you play chess?"
"No, not really."
"Well yeah I play chess and I can see how..."
Oh god. Someone just kill me.
But you have to say - it keeps you watching, because if you tune out you might miss some outlandic shit like this chick asking somebody if their favorite matchup is ZvG.
i don't know what the production costs were like compared to the other big tournament/events, but it seems very cheap.
pretty blond random interviews with nerds... mmmh... she should have some kind of uniform to wear to make her stand out more - and let people know that she's with NASL doing LIVE STREAMING... lol
i like the 'get to know the crowd' thing, but she seems to be catching everyone by suprise... is it a hidden camera show or what?
she obviously doesn't know a lot about starcraft, and doesn't have much experience at that role... give her a break.
On July 10 2011 05:48 shizna wrote: i don't know what the production costs were like compared to the other big tournament/events, but it seems very cheap.
pretty blond random interviews with nerds... mmmh... she should have some kind of uniform to wear to make her stand out more - and let people know that there's LIVE STREAMING CAMERA... lol
The truth is that it's not cheap. It's just inefficient. They've spent a lot of money on the venue, screens, seating, custom booths, audio equipment, cameras, scrims, curtains, food, projectors and screens, flying in Artosis/Tasteless ...
It's weird how something as intimate as Homestory Cup feels more professional, simply by being simpler, more well-thought out and better planned.
They should have tastless/artosis/day9 running aroudn to interview instead of the dumb girl.
Also, I think it woudl be better to just play the games after eachother with a max 15 min break. It just doesn't make sense to let everybody wait for 45 minutes for another 5 minute ZvZ. People in EU aren't gonna be able to catch the lasts matches because of that.
Maybe it would have been better to have the whole finals to last 2 full days instead of 3?
On July 10 2011 05:48 shizna wrote: i don't know what the production costs were like compared to the other big tournament/events, but it seems very cheap.
pretty blond random interviews with nerds... mmmh... she should have some kind of uniform to wear to make her stand out more - and let people know that there's LIVE STREAMING CAMERA... lol
The truth is that it's not cheap. It's just inefficient. They've spent a lot of money on the venue, screens, seating, custom booths, audio equipment, cameras, scrims, curtains, food, projectors and screens, flying in Artosis/Tasteless ...
It's weird how something as intimate as Homestory Cup feels more professional, simply by being simpler, more well-thought out and better planned.
Exactly. I hate all the fake personalities of people who no nothing of the game. Just put players/commentators in front of a camera and let them talk. They'll produce content far superior to this garbage.
On July 10 2011 04:30 Butigroove wrote: Anyone calling Xeris an amateur at hosting tournaments clearly has no fucking clue what has gone on in the NA scene for the past 13 years.
Somtimes It makes me rage too much to read TL, nowadays.
Actually, enlighten me ... what tournaments has Xeris hosted over the past 13 years? Because not all experience is created equal, to be honest.
Running a tournament is a lot different from running a stage show.
# WCG Canada Finals 2007 - Head Starcraft Admin # Organized SoCal LAN 1-4 # Organized Can LAN 2008 # The Team Tournament - Head Admin # Yankee League - Creator # WGT CW Tournament 2006 & 2007 & 2008 & 2009 # War of the States # WGT Titans League # UC Pro League # For the Love of the Game Tournament # The Nostalgia Tournament # CSL - Co-Head Admin # SC For Life LAN # Global Gamers Invitational # Tour of Duty # Root WARZONE
That's from his profile, and I'm sure that isn't even close to everything he's run. The Gosucoaching tournaments aren't on there, for one.
I mean the dude has organized 10+ LAN events, Co-founded the CSL, and was an admin on one of the oldest and longest running non-Korean leagues there was. Do you need more credentials? The dude is an admin-ing BOSS.
On July 10 2011 05:48 shizna wrote: i don't know what the production costs were like compared to the other big tournament/events, but it seems very cheap.
pretty blond random interviews with nerds... mmmh... she should have some kind of uniform to wear to make her stand out more - and let people know that there's LIVE STREAMING CAMERA... lol
The truth is that it's not cheap. It's just inefficient. They've spent a lot of money on the venue, screens, seating, custom booths, audio equipment, cameras, scrims, curtains, food, projectors and screens, flying in Artosis/Tasteless ...
It's weird how something as intimate as Homestory Cup feels more professional, simply by being simpler, more well-thought out and better planned.
Exactly. I hate all the fake personalities of people who no nothing of the game. Just put players/commentators in front of a camera and let them talk. They'll produce content far superior to this garbage.
I wouldn't call it 'garbage', that's too harsh. But with better management they could be getting more value out of their money, that's for sure.
This schedule was put out on June 2nd. It's hardly a secret.
I think the problem is that they're pulling out 1:30 for every bo3, which results in 1 hour of downtime between games unless every game the map gets mined out and they play the full 3 games, NASL would be so much better if it was just them playing 4 bo3's after eachother taking up like 2 hours, than it is now where they play 4 bo3's and it takes 6 hours (11:00 - 5:00) because they have 1 hour between downtimes, it's just flat out annoying to watch and unnecessary. I doubt anyone actually likes watching a game for 30 minutes, then waiting an hour, then watching another game for 30 minutes. I like to sit down and catch some games, then do something else, this format is just really annoying.
And please please please, you got tasteless/artosis here, MAKE THEM CAST. They're (pretty much) universally agreed upon to be the best starcraft 2 casters out there, why have them do intro's, you're just wasting their awesomeness.
On July 10 2011 05:46 Gamegene wrote: "Do you play chess?"
"No, not really."
"Well yeah I play chess and I can see how..."
Oh god. Someone just kill me.
I feel so bad for this girl. Why would they put her in this situation?
She is a model. This is what she was "made" for? Besides. She probably heard of Starcraft last week and only had a couple of hours of introduction to it with Anna. All things considered she is doing a decent job in a very foreign environment. It would be a ton better to send out a caster/pro with a mic and troll around though. Imagine MC interviewing people. Now that would be quality entertainment.
Overall, good job complaining. Only thing missed is the quality of the cameras... Im only watching in 360, but it feels like the cameras are not up to the task.
Improve everything. Safest bet. Only the casters and the players are up to par at the moment to be brutally honest.
On July 10 2011 05:48 shizna wrote: i don't know what the production costs were like compared to the other big tournament/events, but it seems very cheap.
pretty blond random interviews with nerds... mmmh... she should have some kind of uniform to wear to make her stand out more - and let people know that she's with NASL doing LIVE STREAMING... lol
i like the 'get to know the crowd' thing, but she seems to be catching everyone by suprise... is it a hidden camera show or what?
she obviously doesn't know a lot about starcraft, and doesn't have much experience at that role... give her a break.
Cheap? Look at all the equipment they rented, look at the prize pool, look at the venue.
It is very well funded. The problem is nepotism.
Rather than hire experienced people they hired people they are friends with. Fire everyone and hire people based on merits and all problems would disappear immediately.
On July 10 2011 04:30 Butigroove wrote: Anyone calling Xeris an amateur at hosting tournaments clearly has no fucking clue what has gone on in the NA scene for the past 13 years.
Somtimes It makes me rage too much to read TL, nowadays.
Actually, enlighten me ... what tournaments has Xeris hosted over the past 13 years? Because not all experience is created equal, to be honest.
Running a tournament is a lot different from running a stage show.
# WCG Canada Finals 2007 - Head Starcraft Admin # Organized SoCal LAN 1-4 # Organized Can LAN 2008 # The Team Tournament - Head Admin # Yankee League - Creator # WGT CW Tournament 2006 & 2007 & 2008 & 2009 # War of the States # WGT Titans League # UC Pro League # For the Love of the Game Tournament # The Nostalgia Tournament # CSL - Co-Head Admin # SC For Life LAN # Global Gamers Invitational # Tour of Duty # Root WARZONE
That's from his profile, and I'm sure that isn't even close to everything he's run. The Gosucoaching tournaments aren't on there, for one.
I mean the dude has organized 10+ LAN events, Co-founded the CSL, and was an admin on one of the oldest and longest running non-Korean leagues there was. Do you need more credentials? The dude is an admin-ing BOSS.
Also, I heard he has a 14" penis.
I have no doubt that Xeris could organize players and run solid tournament. But stage managing and producing an event of this size with this much production? That's a whole other job ON TOP of organizing a tournament.
On July 10 2011 06:02 Defacer wrote: I wouldn't call it 'garbage', that's too harsh. But with better management they could be getting more value out of their money, that's for sure.
They needed to consult players and casters who know what professional LAN's look like.
"Is this a good idea? Should we do this? What are some issues that have occurred to past tournaments?"
On July 10 2011 05:46 Gamegene wrote: "Do you play chess?"
"No, not really."
"Well yeah I play chess and I can see how..."
Oh god. Someone just kill me.
I feel so bad for this girl. Why would they put her in this situation?
She is a model. This is what she was "made" for? Besides. She probably heard of Starcraft last week and only had a couple of hours of introduction to it with Anna. All things considered she is doing a decent job in a very foreign environment. It would be a ton better to send out a caster/pro with a mic and troll around though. Imagine MC interviewing people. Now that would be quality entertainment.
Overall, good job complaining. Only thing missed is the quality of the cameras... Im only watching in 360, but it feels like the cameras are not up to the task.
Improve everything. Safest bet. Only the casters and the players are up to par at the moment to be brutally honest.
she didnt know who anna was.
anna kinda pulled rank on her "no i do intervuiews on main stage"
On July 10 2011 05:48 shizna wrote: i don't know what the production costs were like compared to the other big tournament/events, but it seems very cheap.
pretty blond random interviews with nerds... mmmh... she should have some kind of uniform to wear to make her stand out more - and let people know that she's with NASL doing LIVE STREAMING... lol
i like the 'get to know the crowd' thing, but she seems to be catching everyone by suprise... is it a hidden camera show or what?
she obviously doesn't know a lot about starcraft, and doesn't have much experience at that role... give her a break.
Cheap? Look at all the equipment they rented, look at the prize pool, look at the venue.
It is very well funded. The problem is nepotism.
Rather than hire experienced people they hired people they are friends with. Fire everyone and hire people based on merits and all problems would disappear immediately.
Or get brains. Because you don't have to be qualified to know that their map pool system is horrible for example.
The ZvG thing was absolutely hilarious. It just remains the "what race do you play?" question since she clearly doesn't know anything about the game... it's kinda cuta
On July 10 2011 06:02 Xova wrote: So I missed the whole excellent thing....anyone wanna update me?
"what's your favorite matchup?"
"ZvP"
"excellent!"
? How can you find that answer excellent? There were a lot more like that.
"where are you from?"
"some city in the US"
"excellent!"
...
The HasuOrbs thing was also funny yesterday. Still it a bit of a "boobs over knowledge"-thing..
The production isn't completely professional (especially the lack of a sound supervisor, is anyone there even checking the stream?), but I support them!
It is well funded but sadly it is one of those events that does not "Hire" skilled people across the board. It is friends of famous friends and their friends...which is what we see in over quality. You can throw all money you want at something and it will still fail if you don't hire quality people. You can not JUST put big named players and have one GREAT organizer and some HUGE name commentators and think it will a success.
1. They have had HORRIBLE audio issues almost every night 2. They claim they did 20+ hours of testing and yet still couldn't get things right 3. They never offered "Weekend Finals Pass" to allow people to enjoy HQ finals 4. Point 4 is obviously they have next to nothing to show off with all issues
That being said the players are making the games quality tournament like you would see in GSL / MLG ect. They have solid commentators so I have zero issue with that outside I still think a few of less experienced ones are only there cause they are again "Friends of Friends" If all NASL cares about is having enough viewership to gain sponsors and not care about people watching the stream they will do fine. They will never compete with MLG or GSL or any other top end league because while those companies are also businesses they have proven to learn from their mistakes and FIX problems in timly manner. They have gone above and beyond to address the community and the people who PAY to keep them afloat and fix problems as need be.
Hire quailty people who KNOW how to do their job and stop hiring bunch of your famous friends who have a big name but do not even compete with people who are skillful in the same area of work.
Stop ignoring fact you have issues all season and step up and FIX the issues and prove you care about Starcraft Esports and the community and not just keep looking ignorant in eyes of the community watching you make mistake after mistake after mistake with no resolution.
This explains so much, I hadn't really thought of it like that, but it seems to really be the case here, I'm constantly watching the NASL thinking "this is so amateuristic, I thought it was so well funded", seriously, get some real great people working there.
So I missed the whole excellent thing....anyone wanna update me?
Basically Mr Burns was interviewing people in a disguise
"I'm actually pretty bad at Starcraft" "Excellent"
On July 10 2011 04:30 Butigroove wrote: Anyone calling Xeris an amateur at hosting tournaments clearly has no fucking clue what has gone on in the NA scene for the past 13 years.
Somtimes It makes me rage too much to read TL, nowadays.
Actually, enlighten me ... what tournaments has Xeris hosted over the past 13 years? Because not all experience is created equal, to be honest.
Running a tournament is a lot different from running a stage show.
# WCG Canada Finals 2007 - Head Starcraft Admin # Organized SoCal LAN 1-4 # Organized Can LAN 2008 # The Team Tournament - Head Admin # Yankee League - Creator # WGT CW Tournament 2006 & 2007 & 2008 & 2009 # War of the States # WGT Titans League # UC Pro League # For the Love of the Game Tournament # The Nostalgia Tournament # CSL - Co-Head Admin # SC For Life LAN # Global Gamers Invitational # Tour of Duty # Root WARZONE
That's from his profile, and I'm sure that isn't even close to everything he's run. The Gosucoaching tournaments aren't on there, for one.
I mean the dude has organized 10+ LAN events, Co-founded the CSL, and was an admin on one of the oldest and longest running non-Korean leagues there was. Do you need more credentials? The dude is an admin-ing BOSS.
Also, I heard he has a 14" penis.
I have no doubt that Xeris could organize players and run solid tournament. But stage managing and producing an event of this size with this much production? That's a whole other job ON TOP of organizing a tournament.
It's too bad they only have one person to stage manage and produce this event, I guess.
I don't claim to know what exactly Xeris' job is exactly, but I know that there is almost no one more qualified than him in the Starcraft community to do it.
I honestly thought day 2 was starting to be an improvement, sound is better, things started on time. It's still wayyyyy to long between matches, but its a little late to change all that. Everything was going good until "How many NASLs have you been to so far?".
On July 10 2011 06:16 Jerb wrote: I honestly thought day 2 was starting to be an improvement, sound is better, things started on time. It's still wayyyyy to long between matches, but its a little late to change all that. Everything was going good until "How many NASLs have you been to so far?".
I have lost all faith now.
Completely agree. I'm the fool for showing the NASL to some non starcraft friends, they saw 1 game, then the interviews, which they even knew were terrible, after 10 mins my friends already knew that zvg wasnt an mu.. and they turned it off and said "dunno how you watch this shit"
I loved the games, the casters are doing a good job. but this is the antithesis of a godo event.
5 hours of content over 3 full days of screen time
On July 10 2011 06:16 Jerb wrote: I honestly thought day 2 was starting to be an improvement, sound is better, things started on time. It's still wayyyyy to long between matches, but its a little late to change all that. Everything was going good until "How many NASLs have you been to so far?".
I have lost all faith now.
AskJoshy JoshSuth We trolled @coLdrewbie a bit. The girl is named Lindsey and you'll be seeing a lot of her for #NASL stuff. (former pageant contestant) 26 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
On July 10 2011 06:16 Jerb wrote: I honestly thought day 2 was starting to be an improvement, sound is better, things started on time. It's still wayyyyy to long between matches, but its a little late to change all that. Everything was going good until "How many NASLs have you been to so far?".
I have lost all faith now.
AskJoshy JoshSuth We trolled @coLdrewbie a bit. The girl is named Lindsey and you'll be seeing a lot of her for #NASL stuff. (former pageant contestant) 26 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
nah nasl isnt going to get away with "lol we were only trolling"
On July 10 2011 06:27 Kipsate wrote: They replaced korean translator QT :<.
I think the new male translator is really good. He knows how to use a microphone, speaks clearly into it, and waits untill the player is finished to start talking. He's done a great job!
I started a blog a couple days ago just in hopes of landing a producing job with an esports event, but it's related primarily to production and what I, as an aspiring producer, look for in Starcraft 2 esports events. I'll attach a link to the bottom of my post if you feel like reading more, but otherwise here's a brief summary of my thoughts:
The long breaks are buzz-killers. We understand technical difficulties happen but there needs to be more communication about when the event is going to start back up. The audience is patient when a timeframe is given, they're not when nothing is said.
Secondly, the hype videos are a great idea but they're way too long. Shoot for a couple minutes for each player at most, nothing more. These 15 minute hype videos are way too long when there's 30 minutes or more in-between games.
Also, the sound levels have been very inconsistent at times. Today, it's been much better but yesterday was a disaster.
On the positives, the casting all around has been a big positive in my opinion. I love that they're doing post-match interviews, wouldn't mind seeing pre-match interviews with both players. The hype videos are a great idea, just need to be shorter. Also love that the brackets have been updated on the stream, no one seems to do this but it's fantastic.
Anyways, here's a link to my sc2esportsreview.wordpress.com blog if you want a much more in-depth analysis of the NASL thus far.
Would love to know who's the '' brain '' behind this event... so many mistakes in the format and roster of play that have been invited... missing Kiwi and IdrA is a big hole...
Here's the whole thing about getting a hot chick interviewer: If I want to see a hot chick, there are a billion places where I can see that. However, there are basically no places where I can hear an intelligent Starcraft interview. Therefore, being knowledgeable is a higher value in this situation than being hot.
Would love to know who's the '' brain '' behind this event... so many mistakes in the format and roster of play that have been invited... missing Kiwi and IdrA is a big hole...
Both KiwiKaki and IdrA participated, this is the finals, the playoffs were busy for 9 weeks prior and they didn't perform well enough to get in.
On July 10 2011 06:36 AndAgain wrote: Here's the whole thing about getting a hot chick interviewer: If I want to see a hot chick, there are a billion places where I can see that. However, there are basically no places where I can hear an intelligent Starcraft interview. Therefore, being knowledgeable is a higher value in this situation than being hot.
Simply put, and gets all the information across.. The trouble is everyone is pushing for mainstream "ESPORTS FUCK YEAH!" and mainstream means girls wearing short short shorts, or blonde girls glaring at nerds whilst saying excellent.
Alienating the loyal userbase in exchange for easy one shot viewer numbers seems to be the norm recently, for many things.
Tis a sad thing to see. Flying in tastosis to cast 3 games so far seems like such a waste, they could have been doing some interviews with the crowd.
NASL shouldnt forget that sc players prefer bromance over romance. Intelligent questions + actual sc personalities would have been great
On July 10 2011 06:34 aZoX wrote: Would love to know who's the '' brain '' behind this event... so many mistakes in the format and roster of play that have been invited... missing Kiwi and IdrA is a big hole...
This is the finals... those players didn't qualify.
I'm just gonna say this again, can we PLEASE see day9/tasteless/artosis casting, or at least any mix of 2 of those, you brought over the 3 best casters in the world and you're constantly only using 1 of them. Why?
Gretorp and Incontrol aren't bad casters, don't get me wrong, but come on, it's like having a whole buffet and only eating the salad. It's just so much wasted potential.
The sound is completely bonkers. I've been watching with my music on and the stream muted because day9 about blew my ear drums out twice because whoever is managing the soundboard did a boo boo.
The echo issues, the too quiet, too loud, popping, and imbalanced highs and lows are a problem. It's not the casters fault so people should stop blaming them, but whoever is controlling the sound for NASL did really bad on day 1... day 2 is a lot better so far.
edit: Anna is smoking hot btw.... those tight pants she has on.... Mmmmm Hmmmm... That's all I got to say.
On July 10 2011 06:49 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: I'm just gonna say this again, can we PLEASE see day9/tasteless/artosis casting, or at least any mix of 2 of those, you brought over the 3 best casters in the world and you're constantly only using 1 of them. Why?
Gretorp and Incontrol aren't bad casters, don't get me wrong, but come on, it's like having a whole buffet and only eating the salad. It's just so much wasted potential.
Agreed. The fans overwhelmingly prefer Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9. Gretorp has plenty of experience casting, its not like they need to keep letting him build himself up.
My god these interviews are horrible. "How many NASL events have you been to?" Seriously? Since I can't just leave a horrible comment I'll give you what you can do to correct this (which should be quite obvious without me having to list it for you.)
Educate your interviewers.
Stop with the long breaks my god. It's sad how it takes 12 hours to get through 8 best of 3's. GSL gets through 4 best of 3's in 1/3 of that time.
Make the tournament be longer without the stupid breaks. Your players played 3 months of matches in what has to be the biggest group stages of Starcraft 2 to reach a tournament finals that is still doing Bo3's? It should atleast be Bo5's or double elimination Bo3's.
This event is really painful to watch - if I hadn't already committed $25, I wouldn't be watching. Everything they're doing just feels so incredibly bush league - worse than a high school level production.
The sound guy is terrible with jittery fingers on the sliders. Leaving the caster mics on during the interviews. There were sound issues all season long, and it's translated into this event.
The camera guy seems to have a screw loose on his tripod and can't seem to keep the camera stable.
The lighting on the casters and interviews is awful. It's creating really bad shadow effects (even after the improvements for day 2). They need to at least talk to a professional about how to set these things up.
The interview (and selection of interviewers) seem to be more focused on there being a pretty face than someone familiar with the scene - "How many NASL events have you been to?" "Hasuorbs" Really? I mean surely the NASL people realize that if we wanted to look at a pretty girl, we'd just open a second tab in our browser - we are not so juvenile that the eye candy is why we watch these events.
If you're going to bring in big name community people like Day9, Tastosis, etc. create a production that doesn't embarrass them. You guys are spending your money in all the wrong places. I mean take $10k out of the prize pool or the $2k that you probably spent to fly in Tastosis and put it toward hiring production people that know what they're doing. As much as I love Tastosis, it pains me to watch them participating in this train wreck.
As it is, I highly doubt that the NASL is going to be sustainable. The community is extremely patient and very forgiving (see the MLG Columbus reaction after MLG Dallas failures), but they can only put up with so much. I, for one, have no intention of throwing away my money for season 2 like I foolishly did for season 1. And unless the NASL decides to actually do something about its unprofessional aspects, others are going to follow suit. I mean I want e-sports to grow and become a cool thing, but the NASL has made it abundantly clear that it is not the one to do it.
The worst part is for the amount of time they pulled out for these games and the amount of casters they have there they could've easily made EVERY game a bo7 with 5 minute breaks and casters switching when they get tired. Having it be bo3 is just all around dissapointing, even more so with the ridiculous wait times.
On July 10 2011 06:58 Pyo wrote: This event is really painful to watch - if I hadn't already committed $25, I wouldn't be watching. Everything they're doing just feels so incredibly bush league - worse than a high school level production.
The sound guy is terrible with jittery fingers on the sliders. Leaving the caster mics on during the interviews. There were sound issues all season long, and it's translated into this event.
The camera guy seems to have a screw loose on his tripod and can't seem to keep the camera stable.
The lighting on the casters and interviews is awful. It's creating really bad shadow effects (even after the improvements for day 2). They need to at least talk to a professional about how to set these things up.
The interview (and selection of interviewers) seem to be more focused on there being a pretty face than someone familiar with the scene - "Is this your first NASL event?" Really? I mean surely the NASL people realize that if we wanted to look at a pretty girl, we'd just open a second tab in our browser - we are not so juvenile that the eye candy is why we watch these events.
If you're going to bring in big name community people like Day9, Tastosis, etc. create a production that doesn't embarrass them. You guys are spending your money in all the wrong places. I mean take $10k out of the prize pool or the $2k that you probably spent to fly in Tastosis and put it toward hiring production people that know what they're doing. As much as I love Tastosis, it pains me to watch them participating in this train wreck.
As it is, I highly doubt that the NASL is going to be sustainable. The community is extremely patient and very forgiving (see the MLG Columbus reaction after MLG Dallas failures), but they can only put up with so much. I, for one, have no intention of throwing away my money for season 2 like I foolishly did for season 1. And unless the NASL decides to actually do something about its unprofessional aspects, others are going to follow suit. I mean I want e-sports to grow and become a cool thing, but the NASL has made it abundantly clear that it is not the one to do it.
Constant commercials + sponsorship + people buying HD passes, ie 25$ a pop, I think they hit even a long time ago. Long term sustainability will depend if they can provide BETTER production & games.
On July 10 2011 06:57 Websblob wrote: Stop with the long breaks my god. It's sad how it takes 12 hours to get through 8 best of 3's. GSL gets through 4 best of 3's in 1/3 of that time.
The GSL has 4 booths which eliminates the need for player set up time.
The GSL has 4 booths which eliminates the need for player set up time.
Player setup time isn't 60 minutes, the reason it's so long is that they want to keep to their schedule, which is one bo3 every 1:30, which is kinda ridiculous
On July 10 2011 06:27 Kipsate wrote: They replaced korean translator QT :<.
I think the new male translator is really good. He knows how to use a microphone, speaks clearly into it, and waits untill the player is finished to start talking. He's done a great job!
In terms of clarity to the audience, yeah he's great.
In terms of accuracy he's awful... in fact some of the awkwardness was generated by him (but I guess that added to the charm).
The GSL has 4 booths which eliminates the need for player set up time.
Player setup time isn't 60 minutes, the reason it's so long is that they want to keep to their schedule, which is one bo3 every 1:30, which is kinda ridiculous
Indeed, Goody isn't here so no need for such a long time
Even if you ignore all the issues with the production, the tournament still doesn't live up to mlg/gsl/dreamhack. With only 16 players, it's ridiculous to have single elimination best of threes determine the 100,000 prize pool.
On July 10 2011 06:58 Pyo wrote: This event is really painful to watch - if I hadn't already committed $25, I wouldn't be watching. Everything they're doing just feels so incredibly bush league - worse than a high school level production.
The sound guy is terrible with jittery fingers on the sliders. Leaving the caster mics on during the interviews. There were sound issues all season long, and it's translated into this event.
The camera guy seems to have a screw loose on his tripod and can't seem to keep the camera stable.
The lighting on the casters and interviews is awful. It's creating really bad shadow effects (even after the improvements for day 2). They need to at least talk to a professional about how to set these things up.
The interview (and selection of interviewers) seem to be more focused on there being a pretty face than someone familiar with the scene - "Is this your first NASL event?" Really? I mean surely the NASL people realize that if we wanted to look at a pretty girl, we'd just open a second tab in our browser - we are not so juvenile that the eye candy is why we watch these events.
If you're going to bring in big name community people like Day9, Tastosis, etc. create a production that doesn't embarrass them. You guys are spending your money in all the wrong places. I mean take $10k out of the prize pool or the $2k that you probably spent to fly in Tastosis and put it toward hiring production people that know what they're doing. As much as I love Tastosis, it pains me to watch them participating in this train wreck.
As it is, I highly doubt that the NASL is going to be sustainable. The community is extremely patient and very forgiving (see the MLG Columbus reaction after MLG Dallas failures), but they can only put up with so much. I, for one, have no intention of throwing away my money for season 2 like I foolishly did for season 1. And unless the NASL decides to actually do something about its unprofessional aspects, others are going to follow suit. I mean I want e-sports to grow and become a cool thing, but the NASL has made it abundantly clear that it is not the one to do it.
Constant commercials + sponsorship + people buying HD passes, ie 25$ a pop, I think they hit even a long time ago. Long term sustainability will depend if they can provide BETTER production & games.
I'm sure they broke even - I mean they have 50k viewers. But if I hadn't already paid before I knew any better, I most certainly wouldn't be one of them. It just saddens me that this where all the money is so players feel obligated to participate in it.
On July 10 2011 06:27 Kipsate wrote: They replaced korean translator QT :<.
I think the new male translator is really good. He knows how to use a microphone, speaks clearly into it, and waits untill the player is finished to start talking. He's done a great job!
In terms of clarity to the audience, yeah he's great.
In terms of accuracy he's awful... in fact some of the awkwardness was generated by him (but I guess that added to the charm).
They should have hired you! You were awesome at MLG!
On July 10 2011 04:30 Butigroove wrote: Anyone calling Xeris an amateur at hosting tournaments clearly has no fucking clue what has gone on in the NA scene for the past 13 years.
Somtimes It makes me rage too much to read TL, nowadays.
Actually, enlighten me ... what tournaments has Xeris hosted over the past 13 years? Because not all experience is created equal, to be honest.
Running a tournament is a lot different from running a stage show.
# WCG Canada Finals 2007 - Head Starcraft Admin # Organized SoCal LAN 1-4 # Organized Can LAN 2008 # The Team Tournament - Head Admin # Yankee League - Creator # WGT CW Tournament 2006 & 2007 & 2008 & 2009 # War of the States # WGT Titans League # UC Pro League # For the Love of the Game Tournament # The Nostalgia Tournament # CSL - Co-Head Admin # SC For Life LAN # Global Gamers Invitational # Tour of Duty # Root WARZONE
That's from his profile, and I'm sure that isn't even close to everything he's run. The Gosucoaching tournaments aren't on there, for one.
I mean the dude has organized 10+ LAN events, Co-founded the CSL, and was an admin on one of the oldest and longest running non-Korean leagues there was. Do you need more credentials? The dude is an admin-ing BOSS.
Also, I heard he has a 14" penis.
I have no doubt that Xeris could organize players and run solid tournament. But stage managing and producing an event of this size with this much production? That's a whole other job ON TOP of organizing a tournament.
It's too bad they only have one person to stage manage and produce this event, I guess.
I don't claim to know what exactly Xeris' job is exactly, but I know that there is almost no one more qualified than him in the Starcraft community to do it.
I can't help but think there are far more qualified people based on organization of recent tournaments.
There are many flaws on production on live event that have been pointed out before. Those are easy to fix. Change sound and film crew, piece of cake. Sometimes projectors break and there is a delay, that is fine in my book.
But the greatest problems are the things that were planned before - poorly. Those are tournament organization problems.
There were many of such mistakes during the regular season as well (spoiled to avoid dragging a discussion) + Show Spoiler +
IMO, they start with the NASL invite criteria (there isn't one), groups being handpicked by somenone who manages a team with participating players, poor comunication with players (no one went after DIMAGA; white-ra, MC and nani got walk-overs for easily fixable issues), walk-over rule changing during the tournament, poor playoff system (the #1 overal ranked, Ret, played against a potentially scary opponent from the open tournament, which was pointed out as a problem by several people beforehand).
For the live event, it was painfully obvious that the intros were excessive long. They went ahead and repeated them for the second day. It would be simple to cut all that down time and plan a bo5 there. The boX system with fixed maps are a mistake, another obvious one (it is worse for players, that can get bad luck on maps, and for viewers, who see the same maps in the same sequence over and over). Tastosis didn't even cast a game so far - why so many casters if they are not doing anything? Not even doing the interviews - instead, there was all that awkardness we saw. After a two-hour delay, they go ahead and maintain the scheduled one-hour break.
The overall result, as someone said, is that there will be 3 days of casting and about 5 hours of actual content. You can't blame tecnhical difficulties for that, but the tournament organization. They definetely could have more quality air time (games, better interviews) with better planning.
And as a side note, justin.tv never delivers for me (I was lagging in all resolutions). If they are serious about selling HD tickets they should think about a different streaming option, as I hear other people complaining too. I complained by e-mail during the season, never got a response.
I hope they learn the lesson or NASL will fade away between the better organized tournaments that are around.
oh and on topic, ive payed the 25$ too. didnt watch a single game tho since the vods are only on justin.tv and i cant watch them. my internet connection apparantly is too bad.
On July 10 2011 06:57 Websblob wrote: Stop with the long breaks my god. It's sad how it takes 12 hours to get through 8 best of 3's. GSL gets through 4 best of 3's in 1/3 of that time.
The GSL has 4 booths which eliminates the need for player set up time.
Not during GSTL and while it may take some time its never THIS long. Longest was 15min or so if i remember and that was with losira's specific mouse driver.
Invite the best casters in the world. Make them sit around and do nothing. Hire vapid model who has no clue what shes talking about conduct interviews with the most awkward of awkward people on the planet. Profit?
So many things are terrible about this grand final, but this really makes me wonder if the organizers of NASL really know what the sc2 community wants. Sure we all like eye-candy, but not in this manner. Day9 in a speedo would be a more appreciated eye-candy in this setting.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
Not a single God damn apology from this guy except for: "GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry." Fucking pathetic.
The reason we're playing the intros today is because we had projection problems yesterday so the people in the building couldn't see. We wanted to give them a chance to see the videos
On July 10 2011 07:31 Mercury- wrote: Are there any reasons for the massive downtime between matches and them using gretorp etc to cast games when they got day9 and tastosis?
The longer they draw this out the more ads they can show.
A bit dishonest to the advertisers though since most viewers aren't actually watching during downtime but they leave the stream open.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
Not a single God damn apology from this guy except for: "GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry." Fucking pathetic.
they dont owe you shit. Considering this is the very first nasl season, id say they have done a pretty good job. Sure there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but overall i think the event is good
On July 10 2011 07:43 Xeris wrote: The reason we're playing the intros today is because we had projection problems yesterday so the people in the building couldn't see. We wanted to give them a chance to see the videos
Thanks for clearing this up, that makes perfect sense.
On July 10 2011 07:43 Xeris wrote: The reason we're playing the intros today is because we had projection problems yesterday so the people in the building couldn't see. We wanted to give them a chance to see the videos
Honestly, the lengths of the intro videos are the least of the NASL's hiccups. I actually think it's a good idea to give people a bit of a summary of the tournament if they haven't being following it.
It's not like the each video is half-hour or something.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
Not a single God damn apology from this guy except for: "GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry." Fucking pathetic.
they dont owe you shit. Considering this is the very first nasl season, id say they have done a pretty good job. Sure there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but overall i think the event is good
Normally when you pay for something, the person you paid has a reasonable expectation to "owe you shit"
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
Seems to me like most of that's the result of you guys using tiny port-a-potties for booths.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
Not a single God damn apology from this guy except for: "GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry." Fucking pathetic.
they dont owe you shit. Considering this is the very first nasl season, id say they have done a pretty good job. Sure there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but overall i think the event is good
I don't really understand how this "it's their first season" excuse cuts it. This isn't new technology here. They could have easily hired an experienced crew who could have done a professional production without a drawn out learning phase.
Many of the problems are things they also struggled with during the prerecorded and edited regular season. Why haven't they gotten training or replaced their staff with people capable of doing their job in all that time?
I said this on a previous page but it bears repeating:
On July 10 2011 02:21 Gurblechev wrote: The thing is, most companies have a product ready for market when they are asking money for it.
I find it strange that anyone would be willing to pay to watch people struggling with the very basics, when you could have just hired experienced and talented people from the start.
I don't pay someone to work on my car when they are not an auto mechanic with the expectation they will eventually learn how to be an auto mechanic by working on my car.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
Not a single God damn apology from this guy except for: "GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry." Fucking pathetic.
they dont owe you shit. Considering this is the very first nasl season, id say they have done a pretty good job. Sure there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but overall i think the event is good
Yes they do, they owe me $25. Did you pay for a season ticket?
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
Not a single God damn apology from this guy except for: "GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry." Fucking pathetic.
they dont owe you shit. Considering this is the very first nasl season, id say they have done a pretty good job. Sure there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but overall i think the event is good
And if they had any consideration for the fans at all, they'd do what MLG did and have the balls to apologise for all the fuck-ups. Their attitude to the fuck-ups is what puts the nail in the coffin.
they dont owe you shit. Considering this is the very first nasl season, id say they have done a pretty good job. Sure there are a lot of things that need to be fixed, but overall i think the event is good
This would've been true for, say, TSL, because that's community organised and they don't charge money. This is not the case for this though.
I really dont understand why they keep letting gretorp cast, its like they feel bad for him if they dont give him any air time...
This. You don't let gold leaguers play in these large tournaments because it would massively detriment from the tournament quality, why do that for casters/production crew that are just as important to making a tournament enjoyable?
On July 10 2011 08:05 425kid wrote: Good thing we have the 3 most popular english casters in the world here so that they can learn from gretorp
Rofl.
I dont understand the allocation of resources at all for this. Getting TASTELESS to do 20 seconds of intro, for an intro.. and he's coem all the way from korea for this?
So the sound problems are still on today. They both suddenly sounded like they're in a huge warehouse with alot of echo, and mics keep being on when they shouldn't and off when they shouldn't.
The long breaks are a huge boner kill every time. If they necessarely are needed for some reason, make something happen. Make day9 and iNcontrol play 2v2 vs artosis and gretorp with tasteless commentating or something along those lines. Would be a crowd favourite for sure.
The fact that the players could see the casters screens during day1 was somewhat.. strange. But it seems to be fixed now, so gj.
Most of the issues seems to have been fixed in day 2 so awesome job there.
* Bad caster utilization. Sure you got some of the best casters in the world but they don't got any games to cast.
* Long down time between games. The forth game started just now, in a little less than 5h only three bo3 series have been played and it is not because the games have been of epic proportions. Get two computers for each booth and configure the one not being used for the next game to come. Then the only thing needed to do is to unplugg the cords and switch the computers before the next game, takes approximately 5 minutes to do.
* A lot of sound issues. Train your sound techicians on your equipment before the event.
* Single elimination bo3. It's not like you can't fit more games, why did you choose this format?
* Interviewers who don't even know about each other. Are the staff really that big?
* 5 minutes intros for each player being played before each game. I found them boring the first time I saw them but I get that some people might like them. But after seeing them several times are there anyone who still enjoys watching them?
* The excuse "It's our first event, the next will be better" shouldn't even need to be used for these problems. NASL have had all the time in the world to talk with other tournament organizers to get their input and advice of their setup.
I think it's pretty obvious they have a rotation. Day9+incontrol/gretorp for early games, tastosis for later games.
The comments were on the rotation being bad, here in Europe we don't get to see any of Tastosis unless you stay up until 4:00, which is a big shame because we were promised to have tastosis cast NASL. Why not split them up? Why not have day9 cast with tasteless/artosis? Why not have 3 people cast (day9/tasteless/artosis), it worked at blizzcon.
Basically they should take a look at how GSL, MLG and Dreamhack do it technics-wise, and copy them as much as possible. As it is now it's just painfully amateuristic for a tournament with a 100,000 dollar prize pool. I'd rather they lower the prize pool and invest in some decent sound and image equipment and engineers.
An hour of downtime between each bo3. Really? 10 minutes is more than enough.
And yeah, don't fly Europeans and Asians in if you're doing a single elimination bo3 ro16. That's a waste of their time and your money.
EDIT: And please let Tastosis cast some games if you're going through the trouble of flying them over.
haha I was quite impressed by MCs English. I don't care much for his attitude, and yet I have to love it at the same time because it's so funny XD 3-0 I never lose against zerg
The interviewer (Rachel?) speaking to MC like he's an idiot was pretty ridiculous. Just speak normally without idioms or fancy words and he'll be fine... ><
Why is the interviewer speaking to MC like he's a retard, I think that actually made him NOT understand what she was saying, talking slowly and leaving out words doesn't actually help people understand you.
On July 10 2011 08:29 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Why is the interviewer speaking to MC like he's a retard, I think that actually made him NOT understand what she was saying, talking slowly and leaving out words doesn't actually help people understand you.
I wouldn't go that far. When you're learning English you tend to just spot a few key words and most of the adjectives and connecting phrases just confuse you so it helps to just talk slow and emphasize a few keywords and let MC say his opinions on the subject. Pretty funny responses from MC too.
On July 10 2011 08:29 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Why is the interviewer speaking to MC like he's a retard, I think that actually made him NOT understand what she was saying, talking slowly and leaving out words doesn't actually help people understand you.
His english isent great, so saying it in that way helps him understand
My biggest issue with this tournament other than the technical difficulties is that its a single elimination bo3. That just blows my mind, such a huge tournament claiming to be all about the "story" and players are only given a maximum of 3 games to prove themselves? (tbh i think that claim is total bs now having seen the finals format)
Wheres the comeback story? Like when select fought his way through the losers bracket at mlg.
Wheres the multiple games? If you want stories you need the widest interaction of players the most people playing each other, thats how rivalry's are built. Think about the story you might of got if ret had of managed to win the loser bracket and then have to face Puma again somewhere down the track. I know i'd be as pumped as i could be to watch that.
How can you possibly claim to have a story in a bo3? This is the smallest series out there that any professional tournament in a elimination bracket could consider. At best theres an opportunity for a small comeback ie going 1 down then winning two games. Think about the Naniwa vs thorzain games where he was on the verge of winning the whole TSL and thorzain came back from what seemed like the dead to take it out, now theres a story you can share with others.
The biggest problem i see though is that so far (please someone prove me wrong, maybe i missed something) the NASL seem to be in denial about everything they have done wrong. (what the fuck NASL, how are you going to improve if you don't admit you fucked up.) We're all adults here, stuff sometimes doesn't go as you might of planned in your head so when it doesn't man up and take responsibility for it so that you can actively improve.
On July 10 2011 08:38 chaokel wrote: My biggest issue with this tournament other than the technical difficulties is that its a single elimination bo3. That just blows my mind, such a huge tournament claiming to be all about the "story" and players are only given a maximum of 3 games to prove themselves? (tbh i think that claim is total bs now having seen the finals format)
Wheres the comeback story? Like when select fought his way through the losers bracket at mlg.
Wheres the multiple games? If you want stories you need the widest interaction of players the most people playing each other, thats how rivalry's are built. Think about the story you might of got if ret had of managed to win the loser bracket and then have to face Puma again somewhere down the track. I know i'd be as pumped as i could be to watch that.
How can you possibly claim to have a story in a bo3? This is the smallest series out there that any professional tournament in a elimination bracket could consider. At best theres an opportunity for a small comeback ie going 1 down then winning two games. Think about the Naniwa vs thorzain games where he was on the verge of winning the whole TSL and thorzain came back from what seemed like the dead to take it out, now theres a story you can share with others.
The biggest problem i see though is that so far (please someone prove me wrong, maybe i missed something) the NASL seem to be in denial about everything they have done wrong. (what the fuck NASL, how are you going to improve if you don't admit you fucked up.) We're all adults here, stuff sometimes doesn't go as you might of planned in your head so when it doesn't man up and take responsibility for it so that you can actively improve.
I agree with that assessment. The Bo3 single elimination setup combined with the enormous downtime in between matches are probably the two biggest issues the NASL organizers need to work on.
An hour break between each match is ridiculous. No need to see the super long player intros every game, just another waste of time. Even with all that downtime, it appears you still have trouble getting the players set up in their booths before the game.
The interviews with Lindsay were funny, better than staring at an overlay or looking at crowd shots for 30 min. or more. Sure she doesn't know anything about SC2 whatsoever, but it was amusing at least. Excellent!
Sound problems are really bad, so bad... it's actually quite sad. Music? What's with the opera music and suddenly gets replaced with starcraft soundtrack? Or the MK walk-out music that gets quickly muted? These sound issues have been so strange and redundant, it's obvious that you have absolute amateurs working back there.
Did I enjoy the games and casting? Yes, but it's painful to see so many glaring problems that could have been easily remedied with a more professional/experienced staff.
Just have the interviews by the casters, they are sitting there already and know way more about the game than any of the interviewers we've had so far.
Also, way too much downtime in between games. I don't know if it's technical issues or what, but almost an hour in between games, are you serious? The hype videos right before the games are too long, and honestly not that interesting (personally, I don't like SC2 highlight reels, you kind of have to watch the entire build up to really be amazed by what actually happens imo)
Also, the music in between games kind of sucks, I don't mind SC:BW music because it's not bad, but play something else. Homestory Cup had some great music in between matches, maybe borrow their playlist.
Other than that it's been pretty good, I mean there are the little technical things, but those are really the only things I've dislike so far.
The blonde chick may be kind of annoying interviewing people, but you cant say she doesnt look good. Check out her facebook page with some photo shoots.
There's a difference between constructive adult criticism and whining like children, it's the first season obviously there's going to be problems they're going to run into and it's our jobs to obviously let them know to improve. But the manner half of you guys are doing it in is ridiculous, act like adults.
On July 10 2011 08:59 Draz wrote: The blonde chick may be kind of annoying interviewing people, but you cant say she doesnt look good. Check out her facebook page with some photo shoots.
Does it make up for it at all? No. Does it reinforce the stereotype that the gamers are a low common denominator that can be easily appeased by blatant sex appeal? Yes.
On July 10 2011 09:02 Kaileycost wrote: There's a difference between constructive adult criticism and whining like children, it's the first season obviously there's going to be problems they're going to run into and it's our jobs to obviously let them know to improve. But the manner half of you guys are doing it in is ridiculous, act like adults.
WE must support esports!!! buy nasl season passes
I think a lot of NASL problems are simply incompetence not really a monetary / learning thing. I mean they had autocam spectating games. It seems just very badly managed, hence the only real criticism is get new managers / leaders behind things. You could spend days pointing out details, but its less about the details and more the overall painting. IT's just not good, in any way. None of the aspects of NASL production are working, from sound, casters, settup, stage, etc. It's all just like a badly ran project. It's hard to say exactly what is wrong in this case because it's everything.
There needs to be "clever" settup, and "clever" booth design. Instead it's simply tacking the banner on the front of the booth or w.e. It just feels sloppy and amateur in every possible way. They have had months to learn and prepare for this. It's an utter failure and is only propped up by the Sc2 community.
It's not whining or crying to say most every aspect of NASL has been bad, its the cold hard truth. They really need to re-evaluate who is even running the show and managing things. My personal constructive criticism would be burn down the house and rebuild it in season 2 from the ground up. They seem to have the money, and the community is propping them up even though its a disaster, they really need to just fire and rehire a whole new staff or something drastic.
That's not what he said, though. He is talking about the time it takes for every player to set up in the booth. If they could do that while the first match is still going on, there would be much less downtime.
Though I'm not sure that's why you had so much downtime. Honestly, I have no idea why.
The only real solution to that is having dedicated computers for each player. They tried that at Blizzcon and still got a lot of downtime. There's always downtime. There's downtime at MLG too.
No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
He was talking about two additional cabinets.
Getting 2 more booths would be about $10,000 in additional cost. Those things are expensive and money doesn't grow on trees and we don't have unlimited money.
If the tournament had the 4 booths, wouldn't have it been plausible to do the tournament over 2 days instead of 3? Wouldn't the money you'd save from having to rent the facility/hire the staff for a 3rd day outweigh the cost of the booths?
On July 10 2011 08:38 chaokel wrote: The biggest problem i see though is that so far (please someone prove me wrong, maybe i missed something) the NASL seem to be in denial about everything they have done wrong. (what the fuck NASL, how are you going to improve if you don't admit you fucked up.) We're all adults here, stuff sometimes doesn't go as you might of planned in your head so when it doesn't man up and take responsibility for it so that you can actively improve.
That is completly throwing me off as well. The posts Xeris made about the problems were all about finding excuses (We don't have that much money, There are downtimes in every tournament) and then finally pointing the finger at the players and make them responsible for the downtime due to setup problems. So Darkforce had to install some crazy mouse drivers? Ok, but why let him install these drivers 30sec before the game is supposed to start and not like 30min earlier. I don't get it.
I know it's sometimes hard to admit that things went wrong, especially when the whole community is yelling at you. But imho this would be the only way to gain back some of the respect lost during the Finals.
On July 10 2011 09:16 hifriend wrote: Every time I tune in to NASL finals there's a fucking break or "intro" of some sort. I give up.
same here Dont want to be negative towards the people that contribute so much to the community imho theres way to many problems to be selling HD passes or anything, it is ball breaking to watch.
Knock off $20k off the prize pool and hire 1 pro to sort your shit out. or get Takesen involved <3 HSC inbetween games parts were fun to watch and you werent stuck looking at a wrong up coming match screen or day9 signing autographs in a distance...
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
Nope. You're being too forgiving.
And your ignorance shows by claiming we get to watch it for free.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
You are ignoring the people who paid money for the home HD passes, NASL can't just shaft them because they are at home, they paid money too.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
I dunno if you're familiar to the starcraft format, but actually only TWO people are playing at the same time, so you have a day to meet up with whomever you want. You DO NOT need to throw in 2 hour breaks in between every bo3. Also there are only TWO commentators up at the same time, so same thing goes for them. If I'm gonna watch season 2 it's gonna be on free stream and with ad block, because this is actually terrible..
And don't tell me "if you don't like it don't watch". They've gotten great players there, and I love to see MC play.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
No, I want the money that I did spend back. God I hate people like you to presume that we haven't paid to watch it and defend the shit out of a shitty product.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
Actually i would have believed that if they said it in the very beginning. The thing that annoys me the most (besides the glaring sound issues that broke my ears) is the fact there is no communication with the viewers. Oh and a couple messages from Xerris already destroyed that reasoning btw. And if you are not going to give info at least plan some stuff to keep people entertained.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
You still think we're watching it for free, cute. Who do you think NASL is making more money off of? The people who paid for tickets or the 30,000+ people watching commericals or paid for HD passes?
People like you defending NASL are the reason organizations abuse viewers. You will gladly eat your bowl of steaming shit then ask for another with a smile on your face.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
I dunno if you're familiar to the starcraft format, but actually only TWO people are playing at the same time, so you have a day to meet up with whomever you want. You DO NOT need to throw in 2 hour breaks in between every bo3. Also there are only TWO commentators up at the same time, so same thing goes for them. If I'm gonna watch season 2 it's gonna be on free stream and with ad block, because this is actually terrible..
And don't tell me "if you don't like it don't watch". They've gotten great players there, and I love to see MC play.
Where is there a 2 hour break in between a best of 3?
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
Bullshit. Most of us paid $25. Did you?
I sincerely doubt that "most" people have paid for the NASL.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
Actually i would have believed that if they said it in the very beginning. The thing that annoys me the most (besides the glaring sound issues that broke my ears) is the fact there is no communication with the viewers. Oh and a couple messages from Xerris already destroyed that reasoning btw. And if you are not going to give info at least plan some stuff to keep people entertained.
InControl hyped up the expectations of the NASL and as a result many of us paid $25 in good faith to support the tournament before we even knew what quality we were going to get (e.g. no warnings were given about how nepotism would play such a large part in its running rather than having professionals). This is a significant sum much larger than what the GSL charged yet Xeris has the gall to come and blame resources for the shit product.
It's pretty much like a blue chip company telling you to invest in them without giving any guarantees, misrepresenting the assets and leading them on, then when millions of mum and dad investors lose their savings they don't even bother apologising or admitting any fault.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
Bullshit. Most of us paid $25. Did you?
I sincerely doubt that "most" people have paid for the NASL.
I did and I have a legitimate right to complain. Those defending the NASL, such as yourself, are likely to be the ones who weren't ripped off.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
I dunno if you're familiar to the starcraft format, but actually only TWO people are playing at the same time, so you have a day to meet up with whomever you want. You DO NOT need to throw in 2 hour breaks in between every bo3. Also there are only TWO commentators up at the same time, so same thing goes for them. If I'm gonna watch season 2 it's gonna be on free stream and with ad block, because this is actually terrible..
And don't tell me "if you don't like it don't watch". They've gotten great players there, and I love to see MC play.
Where is there a 2 hour break in between a best of 3?
Edit: Obviously besides the "breaks"
Right now -.-' appearantly it takes 1 hour 30 minutes to do a best of three, and then they need an hour break after the initial 50 minutes as the bo3 only took like 40 minutes. Great times. Try watching a dreamhack and there's always content available.
Here's a random idea for the downtime -- have the players available in an area with working comps playing TL-attack style games with random spectators for fun. You can bring a "spy cam" over there for the stream too. Give the players something to do and pay them a promotion fee to make it worth the trip for the players who came half-way across the world to attend (but happened to lose in the first round).
As I said earlier, the small number of very important games is ok. You just need to play to stay entertaining (both stream and live) during the inevitable downtime.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
Actually i would have believed that if they said it in the very beginning. The thing that annoys me the most (besides the glaring sound issues that broke my ears) is the fact there is no communication with the viewers. Oh and a couple messages from Xerris already destroyed that reasoning btw. And if you are not going to give info at least plan some stuff to keep people entertained.
InControl hyped up the expectations of the NASL and as a result many of us paid $25 in good faith to support the tournament before we even knew what quality we were going to get (e.g. no warnings were given about how nepotism would play such a large part in its running rather than having professionals). This is a significant sum much larger than what the GSL charged yet Xeris has the gall to come and blame resources for the shit product.
It's pretty much like a blue chip company telling you to invest in them without giving any guarantees, misrepresenting the assets and leading them on, then when millions of mum and dad investors lose their savings they don't even bother apologising or admitting any fault.
On July 10 2011 09:30 SovSov wrote: Nope. You're being too forgiving.
"God, I can't believe NASL has to be a day long event. Who cares about the live audience there? Fuck them. If they're going to pay to be there, and I'm just going to be sitting at home watching on a free stream, they shouldn't be allowed to take up time by interacting with the players and casters. It's not like Western E-Sports fans interacting with Korean star players is really important or anything like that. This is a conspiracy. I want the money that I didn't spend to enjoy the games back!"
You still think we're watching it for free, cute. Who do you think NASL is making more money off of? The people who paid for tickets or the 30,000+ people watching commericals or paid for HD passes?
People like you defending NASL are the reason organizations abuse viewers. You will gladly eat your bowl of steaming shit then ask for another with a smile on your face.
hold up... just say they are greedy and milking you... they still put the scheudle of games times, you can still walk away do your thing and come back... I don't understand the hate...
considering hd passs, adblock and not every veiwer getting a commerical they are prob making $100-200 per commercial, which is decent, so with a thousand or 2 they might even almost make the expensies.... which is good becuase I'm not seeing a real major sponser... if idl'n in their channel gives nasl a buck or two, I'm for it, didn't cost me but for my power bill
It still blows my mind that they went with BO3 for the RO8 and, for some reason, allocated more time to each match than the day before, to ensure a minimum of 30 minutes dead air between each.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
Bullshit. Most of us paid $25. Did you?
I sincerely doubt that "most" people have paid for the NASL.
So you defend that with a generalization. Good job, the ball is dropped, it rolled away. I'm going to claim that, "most" people that are mad enough to bitch about it, did pay to see it. People who get something for free are generally not super inclined to be overly upset about it. (see what i did there? i made an assumption like you do)
To be fair to NASL, wasn't everyone extremely critical of an MLG event that went poorly? MLG cleaned up their act and pulled off an extremely great event recently with Columbus, and only improve the more events they throw.
I can only imagine the same with NASL. Yes, maybe this event isn't exactly the best and there are a lot of issues, but things can only get better from here.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
I dunno if you're familiar to the starcraft format, but actually only TWO people are playing at the same time, so you have a day to meet up with whomever you want. You DO NOT need to throw in 2 hour breaks in between every bo3. Also there are only TWO commentators up at the same time, so same thing goes for them. If I'm gonna watch season 2 it's gonna be on free stream and with ad block, because this is actually terrible..
And don't tell me "if you don't like it don't watch". They've gotten great players there, and I love to see MC play.
Where is there a 2 hour break in between a best of 3?
Edit: Obviously besides the "breaks"
You do realize that the matches don't actually take as long as it says on the schedule? BO3s don't take an hour and a half.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
Bullshit. Most of us paid $25. Did you?
I sincerely doubt that "most" people have paid for the NASL.
The only reason I didn't purchase the NASL pass origionally was because they didn't accept Paypal.
However, after following it I decided not to purchase it after paypal was avaliable as I already missed half of the season.
This is the first time I've watched NASL in a while, and I can tell you sitting through 2 hours of delays and other problems does not make me want to purchase a Season 2 ticket, at all. I have no problem paying money, I've purchased every single thing that GOMTV has offered. The difference is, they are offering a high quality product and the problems with NASL need to be fixed if they continue to make money off their customers.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
I dunno if you're familiar to the starcraft format, but actually only TWO people are playing at the same time, so you have a day to meet up with whomever you want. You DO NOT need to throw in 2 hour breaks in between every bo3. Also there are only TWO commentators up at the same time, so same thing goes for them. If I'm gonna watch season 2 it's gonna be on free stream and with ad block, because this is actually terrible..
And don't tell me "if you don't like it don't watch". They've gotten great players there, and I love to see MC play.
Where is there a 2 hour break in between a best of 3?
Edit: Obviously besides the "breaks"
You do realize that the matches don't actually take as long as it says on the schedule? BO3s don't take an hour and a half.
You do realize that they have variable time limits and can range from a bo3 being over in 15 minutes to a bo3 being over in 2 hours. Also, add in time for the next people to setup all their equipment and warm up in the booths.
On July 10 2011 09:49 Jester.1561 wrote: To be fair to NASL, wasn't everyone extremely critical of an MLG event that went poorly? MLG cleaned up their act and pulled off an extremely great event recently with Columbus, and only improve the more events they throw.
I can only imagine the same with NASL. Yes, maybe this event isn't exactly the best and there are a lot of issues, but things can only get better from here.
But unlike MLG, instead of offering compensation (e.g. free HD to the next event) and fronting up and apologising profusely all we have is Xeris coming in here blaming others and not accepting responsibility for a badly run tournament filled with fuck-ups. All we got is excuses and deliberate ignoring of the complaints.
I think 100k pricepool is too much. Even a gold-medal winner at the olympics doesnt get 50k (in germany only around 20k). NASL should have put the extra money into the production value. Besides 25$ is overpriced, you can get one month of pay-tv for this.
Just as an example: Usain Bolt got for his 100m gold medal at the World Championships in Athletics in 2009 only 50.000$.
On July 10 2011 09:25 SovSov wrote: God NASL is so greedy.
Day long event so that they can spam commericals and milk as much money out of it as possible.
So not only are they the worst tournament so far, but they are making the most money out of it too.
This is literally the beginning of viewership abuse in SC2. Minimum quality in the tournament for maximum profit.
Don't you think you're over exaggerating, just a little bit? >.>
To be fair to NASL, they are giving the audience a chance to meet with players and casters. You know, the people who actually paid money to be there and not just watch the entire event for free. The people who have a legitimate right to complain.
I dunno if you're familiar to the starcraft format, but actually only TWO people are playing at the same time, so you have a day to meet up with whomever you want. You DO NOT need to throw in 2 hour breaks in between every bo3. Also there are only TWO commentators up at the same time, so same thing goes for them. If I'm gonna watch season 2 it's gonna be on free stream and with ad block, because this is actually terrible..
And don't tell me "if you don't like it don't watch". They've gotten great players there, and I love to see MC play.
Where is there a 2 hour break in between a best of 3?
Edit: Obviously besides the "breaks"
You do realize that the matches don't actually take as long as it says on the schedule? BO3s don't take an hour and a half.
Hell they don't even take the hour that they scheduled the day before. Why is there suddenly more time for a BO3 when they didn't add any content? Pure stupidity.
I am pissed about a few things. Technical issues happen and I can forgive them. Especially when it's your first time. But there are tons of things that are unforgivable.
1) Format: BO3s is just plain stupid. I got to see some of my favourite players play on 2 awful maps and now never again. 2) Map choices: Are you serious? The same maps for each series. How is loser's pick not the best way to go? 3) Downtime: WTF? Why am I waiting an hour in between matches? Why am I waiting more today than I was yesterday?
I have to say, the most disappointing thing about this entire thing is how defensive Xeris is being. Instead of taking the constructive criticism from people in this thread, he acts all defensive and pretends everything was out of his/NASLs control. Look at the difference between you and MLG Sundance. MLG Dallas was a colossal fuckup compared to this. Almost everything failed for them. And what did Sundance do? He came out and apologized. He read forum posts/twitter/facebook everything and responded with a simple: sorry we will do better, here's your money back. He didn't come out and say: excuse 1, excuse 2, excuse 3 etc. etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't want my money back (you guys clearly need it). I want you to acknowledge your faults, stop acting so defensive and tell me what you plan to fix next time. Basically, I want to be treated with respect.
I've been like the biggest supporter of NASL all season long. I've constantly reminded people that it's their first tournament, GSL was a screwup at first too, everyone has problems etc. But you're making it so difficult for me to keep a positive attitude.
And now I have given up on this. I was looking forward to staying in tonight and just relaxing while watching this. But I'm going to go get hammered instead.
July vs MC GSL revenge match? Who cares about production at that point...
On July 10 2011 09:57 esperanto wrote: I think 100k pricepool is too much. Even a gold-medal winner at the olympics doesnt get 50k (in germany only around 20k). NASL should have put the extra money into the production value. Besides 25$ is overpriced, you can get one month of pay-tv for this.
Just as an example: Usain Bolt got for his 100m gold medal at the World Championships in Athletics in 2009 only 50.000$.
You don't get endorsements though. Why do people talk if they don't know what they are talking about?
When I watched the first NASL broadcast I kept thinking that they seemed to lack a person with experience from for example tv production. Can't help to think same thing now watching the grand finals, doesn't seem like there's an experienced producer or whatever running the broadcast.
I don't understand... You guys complain about EVERYTHING. You were crying about health bars even though not even the GSL has health bars and now NASL has health bars on during battles.
You cried about sound but even really big events like the Superbowl have some sound problems.
You cried about BO3 even though GSL has BO3s.
Downtime.. Are you kidding me? NASL doesn't need downtime, they don't have to refil their tanks with gas or something. It's the players that need breaks.
On July 10 2011 10:20 Kluey wrote: I don't understand... You guys complain about EVERYTHING. You were crying about health bars even though not even the GSL has health bars and now NASL has health bars on during battles.
You cried about sound but even really big events like the Superbowl have some sound problems.
You cried about BO3 even though GSL has BO3s.
Downtime.. Are you kidding me? NASL doesn't need downtime, they don't have to refil their tanks with gas or something. It's the players that need breaks.
Ofcourse most of the stuff is just QQ. But it isn't that hard to just play all the matches in a row. That is the main problem. The players dont need breaks, nor need the casters because they are rotated and the players only need to play 2 series max. A break wouldn't be a problem, but we dont need 1 hour breaks after every game
On July 10 2011 09:49 Jester.1561 wrote: To be fair to NASL, wasn't everyone extremely critical of an MLG event that went poorly? MLG cleaned up their act and pulled off an extremely great event recently with Columbus, and only improve the more events they throw.
I can only imagine the same with NASL. Yes, maybe this event isn't exactly the best and there are a lot of issues, but things can only get better from here.
The biggest difference between MLG and NASL is that MLG has shown a willingness to hire people that are subject matter experts. Remember how ridiculous the player pictures were early in the season and then Xeris came to the forums and asked the community to fix the images for them? As I said back then, they are far beyond the point of crowd sourcing things. They need to start hiring professionals and not their friends.
I really enjoyed Anna's interviews from MLG. On the back of that, I quasi-understand NASL choosing her to do post game interviews, but the girl doing crowd interviews? Really? I get it, she's pretty, but she knows absolutely nothing about the game. Sure, Erin Andrews probably can't explain to you the advantages of a 3-4 defense against a spread offense. That said, she's provided something called a "script".
Sure, lighting and sound engineers cost money. So do make-up artists (notice the casters look sickly under the stage lighting). Not providing a budget for these positions is either hubris or gross ineptitude. The problems within the NASL, it seems, are top down.
My only criticism is that ret got screwed, hard. The first place finisher from the group stages shouldn't have to play the winner of the open bracket, which is obviously going to be a VERY skilled player. Other than that, great event!
I don't like the presence of an open bracket in a league that's this long and has this many games. Some guy who didn't put in the time and effort of the other players can show up, win the open and then be a strong contender for the whole prize, with a lot less time investment.
I am sure there are going to be a lot of haters complaining about certain aspects of the show. Interview, lighting, makeup and more. However I feel they are moving in the right direction and next season will be even better.
Really just give me free 480p or 720p and I'll be happy. I'm pretty sure I can speak for most of us that we dont really give a rat's ass on how pretty tastosis looks.
On July 10 2011 11:13 xHassassin wrote: Really just give me free 480p or 720p and I'll be happy. I'm pretty sure I can speak for most of us that we dont really give a rat's ass on how pretty tastosis looks.
These things don't matter to us, but I tried to use the NASL last night to introduce some of my friends to watching live Starcraft, and had to a lot of "Well the other events don't look this amateur, trust me!". Presentation matters a lot when you're trying to appeal to people other than those who will watch it no matter what it looks like.
Cool event but it lost the overall buzz for me seeing Ret dropout over some bad luck and bad setup. Maybe during your first event you should have each player sign a contract that is "likely to change" because this was sad.
How does this look amateur? Booths, Webcams for the players, after-game interviews, a HUGE prize pool, the best commentators in the world... What more do you want?
- atrocious sound quality and sound leveling issues. sometimes mics are on when theyre not supposed to be, and sometimes theyre off when theyre supposed to be on. day9s mic is really loud and then too soft. it seemed like something they just couldnt get right regardless of how many chances they had. in all fairness this was much worse yesterday, but still happened today.
- absurd amount of downtime. the producers of this stream dont actually expect 45,000 viewers to be engrossed by a pretty blond walking around flipping her hair and interviewing random dudes about "how long theyve played starcraft" for an hour... who gives a shit. show clips, show epic banemines or sick micro or a void ray escaping with 1 hit point - not a fixed camera at an assortment of people standing in line to get their picture taken with darkforce.
- no regulation of player's "busy status". in a $100,000 tournament i would never have expected a game to have to be paused or restarted because a player is being harassed by trolls on battlenet. and then, of course, this also brings up the issue of ghosting, or a player being msged information about the game as its taking place. how could that have been overlooked?? is this being run by high school kids?
- map pool.... wtf. a fixed map pool? crossfire? xelnaga? taldarim? common guys..... how about some variety.....
- open bracket. as said by someone on this page, ret got screwed. he did. the first place finisher from the group stage should not be forced to play the winner of the open bracket. period.
I've been like the biggest supporter of NASL all season long. I've constantly reminded people that it's their first tournament, GSL was a screwup at first too, everyone has problems etc. But you're making it so difficult for me to keep a positive attitude.
And now I have given up on this. I was looking forward to staying in tonight and just relaxing while watching this. But I'm going to go get hammered instead.
Ditto. I'm an NASL subscriber as well, and started off as an apologist.
It's not the production oversights, tournament errors or scheduling mishaps that bother me. It's the first season; shit happens. It's the manner in which they've addressed them, which makes me wonder if their current staff has the ability or mindset to resolve these issues.
For example, it feels like they brought in Tasteless and Artosis as a direct response to MLG's decision to bring them in for Columbus. That's great and all: but the MLG had two streams, and a shitload of games to cast. In this situation, they're completely underutilized.
It's almost as if they approached this project like baking a cake. They threw a bunch of great ingredients together, but they forgot to mix the ingredients, or whip the eggs, or turn on the oven, etc.
I have no delusions regarding how hard it must be to put on a tournament and an event like this. But that in itself is telling. From the beginning, NASL tried to market this tournament as the biggest thing to having to SC2 in North America, or the NA equivalent of GSL. Their approach to developing this league -- jumping in head first with little experience, rather than building it slowly like IPL -- reflects a business strategy that could be at describe at best as ambitious, and at worst, arrogant.
Edit: You know what, there's still A LOT to like about the NASL. I really like that is it the only major tournament that players from all servers can qualify and compete in. But I really hope, for their own sake, that they tighten the reins and rise to the challenge. Or else they are going to get blown out the water by better managed, more disciplined, more professional tournaments.
On July 10 2011 09:49 Jester.1561 wrote: To be fair to NASL, wasn't everyone extremely critical of an MLG event that went poorly? MLG cleaned up their act and pulled off an extremely great event recently with Columbus, and only improve the more events they throw.
I can only imagine the same with NASL. Yes, maybe this event isn't exactly the best and there are a lot of issues, but things can only get better from here.
MLG apologized for their screwup, offered compensation to customers, and replaced employees who were not able to do their jobs up to a professional standard.
So far NASL is: 1. Denying all responsibility for screwups 2. Refusing to acknowledge they need to hire competent staff 3. Degrading the quality of their (let's be honest, already horrendous) product by stretching the schedule way too thin for ad revenue 4. Unwilling to offer any compensation, such as free season 2 tickets to people who were swindled by season 1
Continuing to cheerlead for them and give them money will not help them improve. That is not how the market works. When you give them money or praise for this sort of product you are sending the message that you want more of the same.
Anyone who wants to support eSports should be issuing a chargeback with their credit card company.
The only way NASL will improve is a huge overhaul. The problems are with their management, and the decision to hire only friends instead of professionals. They aren't going to change anything until they are financially hurt by this nepotism.
the time between games was too long. I understand the desire to build a story... but... it was simply too long, I couldn't keep my friends interested who usually love watching gsl with me.
On July 10 2011 11:18 Kluey wrote: How does this look amateur? Booths, Webcams for the players, after-game interviews, a HUGE prize pool, the best commentators in the world... What more do you want?
The booths look like something that could be DIY'ed from materials sourced at the Home Depot over a weekend. There is a nasty spaghetti of wires just behind the casters' desk (which is visible depending on the camera being used.) Not that this is a deal breaker, but points to the fact that they don't have someone with broadcast experience. The players are barely visible on said webcams. (That we know they are webcams is problematic.) After game interviews have been awkward at best. The caster on the right (as the audience sees it) looks considerably more washed out than the caster on the left. They both look sickly under the stage lighting.
I will concede that they do have an amazing prize pool and casters, but what do either of those have to do with how the show looks? They need a director, they need stage hands in the audience running up and down the aisles pumping up the crowd (watch Day9's post KOTB daily), they need a light engineer, they need a sound engineer, and they need a makeup artist.
On July 10 2011 11:35 Schwang wrote: the time between games was too long. I understand the desire to build a story... but... it was simply too long, I couldn't keep my friends interested who usually love watching gsl with me.
In what way does having someone wander around the crowd asking wood league nobodies what race they play "building a story"?
Let's be realistic here. NASL is a profit motivated business. They are not your friend. They are not a charity. They are not your grandpa telling you a story.
The long and empty schedule was for the sake of pushing out more advertisements.
it seems as though they didn't hire ANY of the professional staff required to pull off a broadcast of this magnitude.
this isn't just "streaming on the internets" anymore guys... this stuff can be as good (if not better) than traditional broadcast mediums.
it sucks to see a crew not realize this and provide such a sub-standard product.
yes, it is season 1 and i can appreciate the growing pains that come along with that... but there are plenty of skilled and qualified people that can help make an event like this shine. sucks that NASL didn't anticipate their "Grand Finals" being worthy of this kind of treatment.
On July 10 2011 11:18 Kluey wrote: How does this look amateur? Booths, Webcams for the players, after-game interviews, a HUGE prize pool, the best commentators in the world... What more do you want?
The booths look like something that could be DIY'ed from materials sourced at the Home Depot over a weekend. There is a nasty spaghetti of wires just behind the casters' desk (which is visible depending on the camera being used.) Not that this is a deal breaker, but points to the fact that they don't have someone with broadcast experience. The players are barely visible on said webcams. (That we know they are webcams is problematic.) After game interviews have been awkward at best. The caster on the right (as the audience sees it) looks considerably more washed out than the caster on the left. They both look sickly under the stage lighting.
I will concede that they do have an amazing prize pool and casters, but what do either of those have to do with how the show looks? They need a director, they need stage hands in the audience running up and down the aisles pumping up the crowd (watch Day9's post KOTB daily), they need a light engineer, they need a sound engineer, and they need a makeup artist.
Also they need a new cameraman. Shots are shaky, poorly framed, and worst of all the "premium 1080p" video is interlaced meaning it is recorded with a 1080i video camera at best. They aren't even deinterlacing it. The video has combing.
On July 10 2011 11:18 Kluey wrote: How does this look amateur? Booths, Webcams for the players, after-game interviews, a HUGE prize pool, the best commentators in the world... What more do you want?
The booths look like something that could be DIY'ed from materials sourced at the Home Depot over a weekend. There is a nasty spaghetti of wires just behind the casters' desk (which is visible depending on the camera being used.) Not that this is a deal breaker, but points to the fact that they don't have someone with broadcast experience. The players are barely visible on said webcams. (That we know they are webcams is problematic.) After game interviews have been awkward at best. The caster on the right (as the audience sees it) looks considerably more washed out than the caster on the left. They both look sickly under the stage lighting.
I will concede that they do have an amazing prize pool and casters, but what do either of those have to do with how the show looks? They need a director, they need stage hands in the audience running up and down the aisles pumping up the crowd (watch Day9's post KOTB daily), they need a light engineer, they need a sound engineer, and they need a makeup artist.
Also they need a new cameraman. Shots are shaky, poorly framed, and worst of all the "premium 1080p" video is interlaced meaning it is recorded with a 1080i video camera at best. They aren't even deinterlacing it. The video has combing.
Eh... At least the game video quality is better than I can run on my PC :D
You can get away with hiring less experience, cheaper staff. But you need to compensate with a lot more time to prepare. Or smaller milestones that let staff work through mistakes. Or insanely talented and experienced management (the kind that aren't afraid to work 12 hours a day and do 80% of the work).
On July 10 2011 09:49 Jester.1561 wrote: To be fair to NASL, wasn't everyone extremely critical of an MLG event that went poorly? MLG cleaned up their act and pulled off an extremely great event recently with Columbus, and only improve the more events they throw.
I can only imagine the same with NASL. Yes, maybe this event isn't exactly the best and there are a lot of issues, but things can only get better from here.
MLG apologized for their screwup, offered compensation to customers, and replaced employees who were not able to do their jobs up to a professional standard.
So far NASL is: 1. Denying all responsibility for screwups 2. Refusing to acknowledge they need to hire competent staff 3. Degrading the quality of their (let's be honest, already horrendous) product by stretching the schedule way too thin for ad revenue 4. Unwilling to offer any compensation, such as free season 2 tickets to people who were swindled by season 1
Continuing to cheerlead for them and give them money will not help them improve. That is not how the market works. When you give them money or praise for this sort of product you are sending the message that you want more of the same.
Anyone who wants to support eSports should be issuing a chargeback with their credit card company.
The only way NASL will improve is a huge overhaul. The problems are with their management, and the decision to hire only friends instead of professionals. They aren't going to change anything until they are financially hurt by this nepotism.
Yep, they have offered no compensation to customers. MLG immediately offered refunds, NASL...not so much. It really shows the business side of things, and which organizations want to "just make money" or ones that want to grow with e-sports.
People also have been sort of brainwashed into this notion of "i have to support this tournament for the sake of e-sports." But if a product or tournament is not delivering, and has repeatedly failed to deliver and then after a fiasco not even offered official response, no compensation...people can make up their own minds if they want to be brained into the "i must give my money for the ESPORTS" or "i'll go support organizations that deliver on their promises (like MLG has, above and beyond."
On July 10 2011 11:57 Defacer wrote: You can get away with hiring less experience, cheaper staff. But you need to compensate with a lot more time to prepare. Or smaller milestones that let staff work through mistakes. Or insanely talented and experienced management (the kind that aren't afraid to work 12 hours a day and do 80% of the work).
It's not that they cheaped out on staff. They refused offers of free assistance from people who actually knew how to do these things.
The problem is they have a lot of money, but they want to give it to their friends instead of giving it to someone who can do the job.
My thoughts are pretty much the obvious ones such as technical issues, playing those recaps videos for insanely long (did not need them) and then the other thought I had were that a single elimination tourney in a 16 man tourney where people are flying 10+ hours is ridiculous. Also you fly out the three most popular and best casters in the world and you have gret/inc casting some of the most hyped up matches on day 1.
Also I didn't buy premium but for them the "no ads" but we will play sponsor messages was really stupid.
I should also add hire a web developer. Their website is abysmal and without any in house developer they are unable to improve it. They really shouldn't be relying on justin.tv for their entire functionality. What sort of serious business has their customer accounts and everything that matters entirely on a third party website?
Even one single decent web developer could set them up a nice site with their own on-site login and VOD system backed by a CDN like akamai. This is how any serious non-amateur website like MLG and GSL does things.
The way they were doing the regular season streams was to play the pre-recorded and edited video in windows media player, then use a screen capping program to stream it to justin.tv! That is so absurd. They are screencapping a video, so they can send out a video of that video. The screencapper is transcoding in real time, significantly degrading quality. They could have encoded it with better quality once and streamed the file directly. I really can't find the words to describe how amateurish that is. It's like they have nobody on staff who is a skilled computer user.
Even the vods are not encoded from the source, they are just chopped up parts of this transcoded video of a video.
They need to hire a web developer and a person to take care of video encoding, in addition to replacing current staff.
I still can't watch because of lag (premium ticket holder). Tried in two PCs with two different internet provider connections. I have no hope of ever getting a refund, as Ive been complaining since week1 to no avail. NASL will never get a dollar from me again.
On July 10 2011 11:57 Defacer wrote: You can get away with hiring less experience, cheaper staff. But you need to compensate with a lot more time to prepare. Or smaller milestones that let staff work through mistakes. Or insanely talented and experienced management (the kind that aren't afraid to work 12 hours a day and do 80% of the work).
It's not that they cheaped out on staff. They refused offers of free assistance from people who actually knew how to do these things.
The problem is they have a lot of money, but they want to give it to their friends instead of giving it to someone who can do the job.
Nepotism. Cheaping out. It's pretty easy tell that the NASL has either one or both of these issues, but I'm going to be charitable because I have no idea how much their staff is paid.
The value of free assistance is limited, if you're don't have the time to properly coordinate or manage them. (It can actually be counter-productive and risky to rely on free labour to do anything critical). But I have to agree, if they have better organized and disciplined management, they could have gotten some value from the community.
On July 10 2011 12:14 DontGiveUp wrote: I still can't watch because of lag (premium ticket holder). Tried in two PCs with two different internet provider connections. I have no hope of ever getting a refund, as Ive been complaining since week1 to no avail. NASL will never get a dollar from me again.
If you bought with a credit card, phone the credit card company and ask for a chargeback. Credit card companies are very good with consumer protection. Let them know the product was not as advertised and they have ignored requests for a refund.
Depending on the credit card company you should have six months to a year to do a chargeback.
On July 10 2011 11:01 Whitewing wrote: I don't like the presence of an open bracket in a league that's this long and has this many games. Some guy who didn't put in the time and effort of the other players can show up, win the open and then be a strong contender for the whole prize, with a lot less time investment.
Ask ANYONE if they rather be invited and play NINE games across NINE weeks to get a shot at $50,000 or if they rather have ONE shot in a single elimination tourney. Everyone will pick the first option. You say the guy didn't put in the time, into the league sure, but Puma did put in the same if not MORE time into practicing SC2 enough to make it to the top in the Open Tourney and now to the Finals.
On July 10 2011 11:57 Defacer wrote: You can get away with hiring less experience, cheaper staff. But you need to compensate with a lot more time to prepare. Or smaller milestones that let staff work through mistakes. Or insanely talented and experienced management (the kind that aren't afraid to work 12 hours a day and do 80% of the work).
It's not that they cheaped out on staff. They refused offers of free assistance from people who actually knew how to do these things.
The problem is they have a lot of money, but they want to give it to their friends instead of giving it to someone who can do the job.
Nepotism. Cheaping out. It's pretty easy tell that the NASL has either one or both of these issues, but I'm going to be charitable because I have no idea how much their staff is paid.
The value of free assistance is limited, if you're don't have the time to properly coordinate or manage them. (It can actually be counter-productive and risky to rely on free labour to do anything critical). But I have to agree, if they have better organized and disciplined management, they could have gotten some value from the community.
They shouldn't be relying on the community. I used that example to illustrate that being cheap is not their problem at all. They aren't even trying to be cheap. Xeris claims the plywood coffins cost them $10,000, their sound board and most of the equipment is overkill and they don't even know how to use it, the venue was larger than needed, they flew out Tasteless and Artosis to have them sit on the sidelines most of the time, etc. They are wasting money like crazy.
They should be hiring people who are able to do their job. It's that simple.
They have more than enough money to fire their friends and hire professionals. They just don't want to.
On July 10 2011 12:09 Gurblechev wrote: I should also add hire a web developer. Their website is abysmal and without any in house developer they are unable to improve it.
They need to hire a web developer and a person to take care of video encoding, in addition to replacing current staff.
They need an art/marketing director to manage their entire design and brand. For example, they're releasing replays to other casters without them being branded with their logo or website. It's like they're trying to sabotage themselves. It's nutty.
And to be brutally honest, the design aesthetic overall is at the level of a second-year design student. It's the kind of design you might have seen in the late 90's.
MLG's design isn't that creative, but it is clean, 'corporate', consistent and well executed. It looks and feels like a professional sports league.
On July 10 2011 12:14 DontGiveUp wrote: I still can't watch because of lag (premium ticket holder). Tried in two PCs with two different internet provider connections. I have no hope of ever getting a refund, as Ive been complaining since week1 to no avail. NASL will never get a dollar from me again.
This lag kicks up at the latter part of the two days thus far. The game I want to see are stuttering and skipping around until I barely know what is what.
I have tried to restart, shut down all other programs, Shift to lowest resolution, but nothing.
My task manager says i am using hardly any bandwidth on my end atm and CPU jumps from 0% to 15% and back. Can someone more tech-savvy then me provide a suggested solution or is this really on their end alone?
thank you MC for being the man you are ! your english might not be perfect, but at least you are trying ! I was rooting for sen through the whole games because i'm zerg but I must say your a real gentleman ! thank you for being a part of e-sport! you are the type of person that will help it grow !
Great games, even better interviews by Lindsey Sporrer. NASL was amazing today, and I'm really looking forward to tomorrow. Only gripe is about the down-time, so at least put on something entertaining ahaha.
After that series all I will say about how to improve NASL is focus on the games. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE TO SEE. We don't need to see iNcontrol and Gretorp in a studio with a backdrop, we dont need loooong ass intro videos, we don't need terrible interviews. Everything you do should be about getting the games on screen for as much of the event as is physically possible. Add all the other shit you are trying to do after you have this basic part down pat.
Please PLEASE PLEASE(!!!!) try to catch the major action more often. I was tearing my hair out during the Sen/MC matches because so many of the large engagements were peppered with camera shots of Sen's main, tech structures, or drops that were in transit (aka not even near to actually dropping)
On the positive side, you've picked up most of the interesting tech switches and such but there have been so many times when major battles are happening and your focus has been elsewhere. Sometimes it seemed like misclicks, other times maybe poor control.
Believe in yourself. Please, for the sake of my sanity and hair.
On July 10 2011 05:46 Gamegene wrote: "Do you play chess?"
"No, not really."
"Well yeah I play chess and I can see how..."
Oh god. Someone just kill me.
I feel so bad for this girl. Why would they put her in this situation?
She is a model. This is what she was "made" for? Besides. She probably heard of Starcraft last week and only had a couple of hours of introduction to it with Anna. All things considered she is doing a decent job in a very foreign environment. It would be a ton better to send out a caster/pro with a mic and troll around though. Imagine MC interviewing people. Now that would be quality entertainment.
Overall, good job complaining. Only thing missed is the quality of the cameras... Im only watching in 360, but it feels like the cameras are not up to the task.
Improve everything. Safest bet. Only the casters and the players are up to par at the moment to be brutally honest.
she didnt know who anna was.
anna kinda pulled rank on her "no i do intervuiews on main stage"
Oh, good. My ability to watch has been somewhat hindered by work.
Amazing games and great casters to be honest. But as soon as the game finishes, I find myself immediately turning off the stream. I am honestly embarrassed about the production quality, the awkward story telling to fill time, the awkward and weird interviews from Anna, and the venue itself looking 3rd rate. Also the observer missed many things and I noticed many misclicks and their were sound issues all over the place during the stream.
The GSL is something I share with people who don't know much about Starcraft. I would never share the NASL.
I spent 25 bucks for the this season of the NASL and I'm not sure I will spend 25 more for next season. I have a great connection yet I had terrible stream issues during the season (the Grand Finals have been lag free though!), and the NASL is the only league that I have lag issues with (and I watch DH, MLG, Homestory, GSL, IPL).
I also prefer to watch VOD's a day or two after so I can analyze the games, but the NASL was incredibly slow on uploading their VOD's, which was really annoying. It is one thing to stay off SC2 sites for a few hours, but several days is tough and I ended up finding out the results before watching the match nearly every time I waited for a VOD.
The Grand Finals and the Season itself just seemed really poorly run. MLG, Homestory, DH, GSL are just several steps ahead in terms of production and watchability between games. Hopefully the NASL can pull it together, but I would not be sad if the NASL didn't work out in the end, if one league has to fail the NASL should be it.
Something that has been driving me nuts is the sound. It is so poor. I don't want to bash the guy who's tackling this job, but moderating volumes and creating a steady medium, as well as turning on mics at the correct times, is not that difficult of a task. But whoever is behind the mix board at this production has failed miserably literally dozens of times.
And those intro videos would be fine, and even kinda cool, if the length was cut by about 50%. Some of the high lights were absolutely unnecessary, and showing 2 10 minute videos before each match, 2 days in a row, is just silly.
Other than that I have really enjoyed the event. The games have been masterful and the casting has been supreme. I even enjoy the awkward interviews. I have full faith that you'll continue to improve, as long as you realize the mistakes made, and understand that even small problems can hinder the experience of many in your viewing audience.
I would like to say thank you for your efforts and making this event possible. I don't want to seem ungrateful, I really love you guys, just trying to provide some constructive criticism
I enjoyed watching the online season better than this live. The sound is atrocious,the interviews are too long (round of 16/8 etc disproportionnate) and weird.
Add colors to the overall design;change the overall graphic charte;dark scene dark booth everything dark/black its too sad. Lights!where are they? Just a few colored spots would do it. Banners:only 1 buypower banner? no NASL banner,no starcraft 2 banner,really this doesn't give a happy feeling,and its absolutly not obvious what this is all about at 1st glance.
get better with cut scenes,they were way better in the online season.
positives notes:loved tastosis and last match MC vs sen was a great moment.
very disappointing that RO16/8 wasn't BO5 and semi and finals BO7. whats the difference with the online games then?
anyway keep going good job overall,your not far from a good stuff.
It's a little depressing that a big tournament like this that is doing a lot of the big things right (big prize pool, big-name players, big-name casters, big screens) is being overshadowed by all the little things they are doing wrong.
It's apparent, when you compare NASL to cost-efficient productions such as the IPL kick-off and Homestory Cup, that the details are what ultimately determine the value of a product.
On July 10 2011 12:26 Komentaja wrote: This lag is terrible on the stream. Whenever a big battle occurs, I don't see half of the action. The audio is fine, though.
easily one of the biggest problems, besides the other issues of shoddy production mentioned all throughout this thread
eventually, i said "Screw it i'll wait for youtubes" and left, it really was unwatchable 80% of the time. (and this was at freakin 240p low-quality, what a joke!)
crystal-clear lindsey(pretty but useless), and horribly laggy games(also pretty, also useless)
i hope that they clear things up for future seasons, if they want to have any hope of success like MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, etc...
I had 0 lag throughout the entire stream today. Don't think NASL is to blame for your lag. Great improvement overall today, very enjoyable event. Tons of improvements to be made but well worth the watch despite them. Some amazing games today! Looking forward to tomorrow and Season 2! Thanks NASL!
To not misrepresent their sentiments, I'll say with 99.99% certainty all of the above comes from people who very badly want this event to succeed.
It's disappointing because the games are excellent, especially the games we saw today (Day 2). However, we can't simply brush aside the multitude of blunders that are clearly hampering spectator interest and attention. NASL clearly is setting out to do something great here, but they're also clearly not executing it well.
The long breaks in between matches is reminiscent of Starcraft 2 at Blizzcon 2010. I'm sure we all remember what a trainwreck it was to watch one BO3 every 1 and a half to 2 hours. The response on the following SotG was unanimously negative towards that aspect. Fast forward until now, and we're being told it is to give the spectators at the venue chances to go to the bathroom, stretch, eat, etc.
Unfortunately that just doesn't work for the stream viewers. I won't make any unsubstantiated claims as to it possibly being used to milk revenue. However, certainly no other major tournament goes live with the planned intention of having hours of downtime between matches, with no content to fill the space with. I'm reluctant to count Lindsey as a part of such content, as those interviews had an attitude of "We totally didn't plan to have anything to fill these monstrous gaps, uhh lets throw this girl out there we hired and have her ask random people questions"
I'll throw my hat in with the rest of the arguments here regarding the need to hire professionals. I can't imagine what would've happened on Day 1 or Day 2 for that matter if TheGunrun wasn't there to graciously volunteer his expertise. The fact that he even had to when he went there as a spectator is a borderline disaster in itself.
I think the problem people are having is not that issues exist, but instead its the fact that the issues are seemingly so rudimentary in nature.
We're not talking about the stream dying due to a lightning storm, we're talking about casters not being heard because the audio isn't set up correctly. We've got a main camera feed on the caster desk that looks like its coming from a blurry home video at times. Most of the time the camera seems to be oddly zoomed out instead of focused in on the casters. We've got sponsorship promo ads being run at deafening volumes, then being stopped, then rerun once the volume gets readjusted. Every time a postgame interview is conducted, we miss what the hostess is saying at the beginning because her mic hasn't been turned on yet.
Then we've got Incontrol having an awkward moment with the audience as they fail to respond to his joke "I'm glad you guys didn't laugh. then afterwards the crowd cheers as a probe slips past a bunker while a stalker draws fire (an excellent maneuver), and he quips
"Sure cheer at a bunker shooting a stalker" sarcastically. Not the brightest moment in casting history to assume the audience isn't responding properly. Also not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but it certainly doesn't help.
Then to top it off on an event that was already 2 hours late, we have these lengthy highlight reels that are being replayed again and again with epic chorus music being looped in the background at the start of every match. The epic nature of the music soon gets old after the first 4 minutes.
I enjoy the storyline being presented, as it was one of the major features the NASL has been trying to bring to the table. But when we've seen many of these videos repeated twice over, people simply lose interest. Just shorten the videos to 2-3 minutes tops.
However there was clear improvement on Day 2, hopefully the improvement process will continue. Hopefully they're taking all of this to heart, and I'm sure we'll hear some responses during some sort of postmortem analysis when this is all over.
On July 10 2011 13:49 Voreau wrote: I had 0 lag throughout the entire stream today. Don't think NASL is to blame for your lag. Great improvement overall today, very enjoyable event. Tons of improvements to be made but well worth the watch despite them. Some amazing games today! Looking forward to tomorrow and Season 2! Thanks NASL!
The Grand Finals have been lag free for me. It was the season that was unbearable to watch for many people, including me, and I think that is what others are referring to.
I think a different map selection method should be used. In the regular season it was fine because it kinda of balanced it out over 9 series, but i got tired of hearing whether or not crossfire was zerg favored or not. If this is even in the discussion and it is required of all players then it gives people the chance to question the legitimacy of the competition.
So i think a veto system would be better (not loser picks) or hell give the higher seed first pick and then loser picks.
Oh and one BO3 series for a live event seems awkward.
Something about the delays. especially with different casting partners i see no reason the competition cant be back to back with no breaks.
I have watched the entire event so much and I think the production value has been pretty darn good for a first Nasl. Yes of course the map selection process wasn't too good and the format but apart from that I think people should stop complaining and enjoy a great event.
NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
I'm at the NASL right now, and the downtime isn't that long. There's prep time between games and they want the audience to be able to meet and talk with the players and staff. I've been to Blizzcon every year since 2007, PAX, SEMA, and other big conventions. For their first convention they are doing good. I'm not sure how the event is watching online, but in person it's amazing.
Here are a few photos I took with some players and staff.
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
1) What does MLG have to do with this? If NASL's production stinks, then it stinks. It has nothing to do with MLG Dallas.
2) The vast majority of people disagree with you on single elimination. Fact is, the more games played/chances given, the better chance of the BEST player actually winning the tournament. And it just makes sense if you're going to fly people from all over the world over.
The thing about good tv is that it goes un noticed they really should have aimed lower with the venue they chose they really needed a gomtv style studio with proper cameras,crew,sound and lighting. This is all very expensive they really could have had alot better show if they just had a small audience and hired cameras/lighting/crew of pros for the studio that they already have then spent some money to get glass booths for the players. But instead we got a really awkward drawn out event that got way over hyped and became a big joke
my advice: Pay for professional tv producers to run the event and keep the cost as low as possible by using the existing studio, they may not make as much money but they'll keep people watching
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it
also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it
also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
I think it's more along the lines that NASL, like MLG, should get a second chance. They certainly improved their production quality today, at least?
Thought I'd post this where someone from NASL might read it.
I like that you guys follow your schedule. That's great. But I missed 2 games of MC vs Sen because I thought it began at 8:00pm.
It's good that you follow the schedule exactly in some ways. Players know exactly when they will be needed to play so they can do stuff with that in mind. People at the event can do other things in the mean time too. Let's people plan around it. But IMO there needs to be some flexibility.
For example Semifinals Match 1 and 2 should be lumped between 6-10pm. So if Match 1 finishes quickly you can begin Match 2 right away without the rigidness of having to start exactly at 8:00 even if Match 1 finishes 1 hour early. This schedule of 1 match then wait a variable amount then 1 match is a little annoying. 2-3 matches then a "break" would be better.
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it
also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
I think it's more along the lines that NASL, like MLG, should get a second chance. They certainly improved their production quality today, at least?
Here is the flawed logic people seem to be using when making this argument. MLG had issues, MLG fixed those issues. NASL has issues, NASL will fix those issues.
I say flawed for a couple of reasons. First of all, NASL has shown an inability to fix their issues in a timely manner. What was it, week six or seven until we had decent audio? Their VOD system is still terrible.
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
So why was MLG able to dig themselves out of the holes of their own creation and not NASL? Simply put, MLG is run by business people and the NASL is run by a handful of passionate, but not highly skilled (at least in the relevant fields) people. I am not saying this to be an asshole or to blindly attack them as organization. They've provided us with some awesome games over the last couple of days. Sadly though, I doubt they will exist past their second season. Yet another failed American esports league.
I really hate the whole concept of "Trying to Develop Storylines" that the NASL has been using as one of their selling points ever since creation. Really good story lines MAKE THEMSELVES. Don't try to force these, that just makes them hollow. IdrA and MC, Huk's climb to fame again, MKP's endless silvers, bitbybit's loltastic playstyle, Slayers taking GSTL twice, MMA rising as boxer's son, Inca becoming the PVP expert, foreigners vs Koreans and the constant struggle for foreigners to maintain any presence, AND SO MUCH MORE. THESE ARE BIRTHED THROUGH AMAZING GAMES / EVENTS / MOMENTS.
Stop trying to stories with these cheesy videos (which highlight terrible moments btw). Just give the players a good set up, give the viewers a clean show, and let them create themselves.
Do you guys remember when NASL was first announced and everyone was trying to figure out who the sponsor is? Anyone ever get in on that or was this funded by some really rich Starcraft fan?
Putting such a massive amount of money into prizemoney is probably the worst idea NASL have had. Viewers don't actually give a shit about prizemoney, MLG and dreamhack are substantially less and yet people play just as well there as in NASL... People are gonna participate anyway if it is one of the most prestigious events so may as well focus on great production, a proper website and running a good stream, even operating at a loss for the first season if need be just to establish themselves.
I often play other video games with a starcraft 2 streaming in the background so I can listen to the commentary and get a glimpse of whats going on in the game; yesterday I sat for hours in front of the pc and I remember it was mostly starcraft soundtrack. Probably a couple of games in between? select vs mc and some other game with puma... I really didnt bother and went to bed.
Just saying that I dont think its funny for anyone (even for the public in the event building) to wait 4 hours between in each match. I also don't understand the reason for that since my perception as a viewer is that there is nothing between the games
On July 10 2011 15:59 Maliris wrote: Putting such a massive amount of money into prizemoney is probably the worst idea NASL have had. Viewers don't actually give a shit about prizemoney, MLG and dreamhack are substantially less and yet people play just as well there as in NASL... People are gonna participate anyway if it is one of the most prestigious events so may as well focus on great production, a proper website and running a good stream, even operating at a loss for the first season if need be just to establish themselves.
Pretty fail business sense
I disagree with your last statement there. Everything about what they've done screams that they don't really have a goal of long-term stability. They seem to just be trying to cash in on the popularity of SC2/E-sports right now rather than aiming to build an established event. To put it a little less cynically, if the financial backers behind NASL don't really believe that SC2/E-sports has long term sustainability, then not investing into infrastructure or production quality is certainly the way to go (gotta keep the books black at all times). Unfortunately, this is not the sort of event that the e-sports community needs/wants.
I personally had a great time going today. I actually have a blog on TL about how awesome it was. However it would be nice, if possible, to have a list of people who are signing autographs and when. Or maybe a reason why Boxer/July/Moon etc can't sign =(
On July 10 2011 15:59 Maliris wrote: Putting such a massive amount of money into prizemoney is probably the worst idea NASL have had. Viewers don't actually give a shit about prizemoney, MLG and dreamhack are substantially less and yet people play just as well there as in NASL... People are gonna participate anyway if it is one of the most prestigious events so may as well focus on great production, a proper website and running a good stream, even operating at a loss for the first season if need be just to establish themselves.
Pretty fail business sense
I disagree with your last statement there. Everything about what they've done screams that they don't really have a goal of long-term stability. They seem to just be trying to cash in on the popularity of SC2/E-sports right now rather than aiming to build an established event. To put it a little less cynically, if the financial backers behind NASL don't really believe that SC2/E-sports has long term sustainability, then not investing into infrastructure or production quality is certainly the way to go (gotta keep the books black at all times). Unfortunately, this is not the sort of event that the e-sports community needs/wants.
Quite possible, but this doesn't change the fact that they have put too much money into the prizepot. People wonder why MLG have such a low prizepool considering how prestigious it is, but truth is all they need is enough money to get the best players to compete. To be honest it seems more like NASL was funded by someone who was ridiculously rich and had a hobbyist interest in SC2 and decided to make a league. Considering how little money was invested into production team compared to everything else, this seems like a pretty ridiculous error and is the definition of poor business sense
"Production value & Showmatch: Remember, this showmatch was to introduce and announce the league. It was also a test run of our capabilities. Please be aware that our production value will only be improving from this point onward and that we are aware of the problems in the cast and will be fixing them!"
This was said so many months ago in the Q&A thread that NASL did, I guess they have improved a little but it's been so slow and minor and problems that occured then, and reoccured during the season are still occuring.
So now after two days of this event some comments.
There seem to be quite some issues with the whole organization of this event, at least it seems from a stream viewers point of view. This whole thing feels like: "Hey tomorrow is the grand finals, what do we do now?".
1. The whole set/venue looks like no one cares. Seriously? Casters sitting in front of a black back at a black table with black booths left and right? Why are there no NASL signs, Sponsor logos, etc.. It does not take much effort to create some banners or posters to make this look much better.
2. The production quality of the stream (or the event?) is incredibly bad. The sound, camera and lighting issues have already been discussed.
3. No one seems to have a clue what they are supposed to do. People have repeatedly been not knowing if there mic was on or not, if they are on camera or not, etc.
4. The scheduling of the matches. Why are there fixed times for the matches to start? Take a look at for example some tennis tournaments, the beginning of the first match is fixed and the next match will start when the first is finished. This way you will have much less downtime, th whole event will feel much more fluent. If you have the matches at fixed times, you will need to be prepared if there is so much downtime. This does not seem to be the case here.
5. The venue seems to be not fitting. I don`t know it feels to big and not right. Rent an auditorium at a ubniversity or college, much better, closer to the audience and they will mostly already have proper lighting and maybe sound equipment.
6. Learn from other peoples mistakes. You are not the first ones to run an event like this (even if it is the first time for you), there are a lot of events that have happened before this one.
7. If something major goes wrong (like 2 hours late on the first day) explain it to the audience and apologize!, they will understand and feel like you actually care about them.
In general, you need a competent director/producer if you do not have one at the moment hire one. Someone needs to be responsible for the whole stuff and be able to see when something is about to go wrong.
If you want to be a professional event, get professionals to run it. There are companys out there who have done stuff like this a bazillion times already, hire them and let the run the event or at least ask for advice. They might be expensive but worth every penny.
Maybe some more variation in the videos they show before/in-between matches? Some simple after-effects/flashy video, maybe new interviews done in preparation for the grand finals for the players?
Sorry guys, I paid 25 for this, can't watch it, so frustratingly bad on every level. Its 100k dollars on the line not the school play, get your fingers out next time.
- Tournament Organization The most essential to improve upon is the overall tournament organization. As seen under "Areas that need improvement" there is a large amount of issues, each one in itself not that hard to fix. Here's when experience plays a huge role. Next time, bring in people who have done this multiple times before (not just NASL season 1) and place them into key administrative positions.
- Grand Finals Format If you fly over players for an whole weekend you might as well have them play a lot of matches. Double elimination (no extended series) is a good option. If your main casters are unable to cast a few games, bring in third party casters or stream them without casting, there is ways to still be able to harvest the VODs for later purchase at nasl.tv.
- Group Stage Format Voted for Ro32 round robin in groups of four but please don't use that exact option.
GSL type group stage is much better than round robin. A round robin will always have a few games were one of the players has much less incentive to win. This is also true for the initial group play. Avoid large round robin groups at all costs and you will have more motivated players and less no-shows. Two or three staggered GSL group stages is way better than a 10 player round robin.
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
THIS.
In many ways, the NASL feels and looks like "the player's league." A massive prize pool; a round robin format that rewards the best and most consistent performers; anyone from any server can apply, etc. They even have (had) players as casters.
Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
On paper, all this sounds like a great strategy to attract players and keep them happy. But it's asses-in-seats and customers that pay your bills at the end of the day. And the irony is, as much as players want to win money, they also want to be associated with an event that is popular, and that people enjoy and respect.
I can't speak for the pro's, but it seems like most of them are playing in the NASL for the money ... not because they actually enjoy playing in it.
NASL needs to rethink their priorities.
I have a hard time imagining TakeSen having trouble attracting the top pro's in the world to crash on his couch next year. And all he really did was rent some decent equipment and made sandwiches for people.
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
THIS.
In many ways, the NASL feels and looks like "the player's league." A massive prize pool; a round robin format that rewards the best and most consistent performers; anyone from any server can apply, etc. They even have (had) players as casters.
Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
On paper, all this sounds like a great strategy to attract players and keep them happy. But it's asses-in-seats and customers that pay your bills at the end of the day. And the irony is, as much as players want to win money, they also want to be associated with an event that is popular, and that people enjoy and respect.
I can't speak for the pro's, but it seems like most of them are playing in the NASL for the money ... not because they actually enjoy playing in it.
NASL needs to rethink their priorities.
I have a hard time imagining TakeSen having trouble attracting the top pro's in the world to crash on his couch next year. And all he really did was rent some decent equipment and made sandwiches for people.
NASL's problems have little to do with the prizepot and everything to do with the planning behind it. When Homestory cup's production out a better overall viewing experience then you something is very wrong.
I feel like the biggest problem is the format. It has been all along. First I'd simplify the season as a whole. If you play 9 groupmatches, that's enough imo. I got the impression, perhaps especially from listening to incontrol, that what's most important to them is that the best players make it. That should be important, but the viewer should be considered more. I think the easiest way is to cut the playoff bracket and make the necessary changes after that (more qualify directly from group, whatever). Ideally I'd like a massive change as a whole, but that seems unrealistic so this would help imo. It would decrease confusion about the format, it would make the "regular season" be more exciting and it would make the whole thing a bit shorter, which I think it needs.
As for the finals. 12 bo3's and then semis spread over 3 days is not enough. Especially when each day is 10 hours long? That's mlg length practically and I think mlg could show more games. I realize 32 players would be a big expense jump, so that's maybe not possible. 4 groups bo3 round robin seems to be leading the poll... That will give 24 bo3s instead of 8 in ro16 i think (+ possible tiebreakers). So that's a bit much. I'd prefer dual tournament style maybe... that would be 20 bo3s which seems to doable although probably have to spread ro16 out into day2 as well.
Please dear God, no waiting screen. Please please please. Whenever I tune in, I want to see something. Games, commentators talking, interviews (live and premade of players, commentators, staff, sponsors, spectators, read: filler if needed).
All the other stuff in production etc I think is fairly obvious/been discussed. The format changes are imo needed so badly. Hope I don't sound too harsh. gl with the last day and season 2^^
Something seemingly not talked about much - the maps.
Having fixed maps for a BoX series is fine. Having the exact same maps for a whole round of a tournament is not - especially if they're Xel'Naga Caverns/Crossfire/Shattered Temple. Either you fix the first map and then have the loser choose, or you make an effort to assemble a varied and interesting set. Nobody wants to watch 8 Bo3 going 2-0 on XC and Crossfire.
Secondly, why in the world are Backwater Gulch and Typhon Peaks in the map pool for the finals? Having them in the regular season was bad enough, in the finals it's just painful. If you want to be original and use maps nobody else loses, at least pick some out of the iCCup pool or something - at least some measure of testing in high-level play was performed on those.
Why is there still no restream for EU? Or did I miss that again? I don't have to explain why it really grinds my gears that I missed tastosis and at least half of the event just because I fell asleep.
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it
also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
I think it's more along the lines that NASL, like MLG, should get a second chance. They certainly improved their production quality today, at least?
MLG Dallas' flaws were, to an extent, beyond their control though. NASL just has very poor production and very poor planning. The biggest issue I've had as a spectator is the downtime. I'm not shallow enough to turn an event off because of it's production, especially when there are world class players like Sen and MC on the stage delivering amazing games, but the downtime is way too much and one of the main thngs keeping me from enjoying this event.
Also, MLG rebounded from Dallas with perhaps the best Sc2 event ever. Hopefully NASL will learn from their flaws and come back stronger next season.
On July 10 2011 14:57 Maliris wrote: NASL is a complete shambles to be honest. Production errors, single elimination, bo3's, AUDIO ERRORS (somehow they always fuck this up) and an unacceptable amount of downtime
Remember MLG? Production Errors - not nearly enough Single Elimination - this isn't an issue to most people. I think double elimination is terrible. If you lose you should be out. Bo3's hmm maybe on that one. Depending on where they start Bo5's.
Not nearly enough production errors? It's enough to stop me from paying for it
also what the fuck does MLG have to do with anything? MLG Dallas sucked harder so it's ok for NASL to be shit?
I think it's more along the lines that NASL, like MLG, should get a second chance. They certainly improved their production quality today, at least?
MLG Dallas' flaws were, to an extent, beyond their control though. NASL just has very poor production and very poor planning. The biggest issue I've had as a spectator is the downtime. I'm not shallow enough to turn an event off because of it's production, especially when there are world class players like Sen and MC on the stage delivering amazing games, but the downtime is way too much and one of the main thngs keeping me from enjoying this event.
Also, MLG rebounded from Dallas with perhaps the best Sc2 event ever. Hopefully NASL will learn from their flaws and come back stronger next season.
NASL has proven through the previous weeks and months that it is up to taking the feedback and turning it around. *EVERYTHING* is better on their standard group play stuff (minus a few issues with the weirdness of the final week of games) than it was at the start. And not just a bit better, but remarkably better. This finals has a lot of flaws, but I really think NASL will do nothing but learn from the experience and be awesome next two seasons.
I mean, just compare a week one video to... pretty much anything in the last month. There's still flaws, but they have come a very very long way.
On July 10 2011 20:00 Defacer wrote: Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
Not allowing map eliminations and including maps not normally used in tournament play like Backwater Gulch is most definitely not fair to the players.
EDIT: I took out the images because they were too large. You can see the images at the Reddit link.
haha, in and out burgers are the best :D
Anyway, as a stream spectator I enjoyed day 2, my only problem is the tourney format/maps, but it's okay, I still enjoyed the stream, and I enjoyed the cute blonde asking random questions too :D
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
THIS.
In many ways, the NASL feels and looks like "the player's league." A massive prize pool; a round robin format that rewards the best and most consistent performers; anyone from any server can apply, etc. They even have (had) players as casters.
Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
On paper, all this sounds like a great strategy to attract players and keep them happy. But it's asses-in-seats and customers that pay your bills at the end of the day. And the irony is, as much as players want to win money, they also want to be associated with an event that is popular, and that people enjoy and respect.
I can't speak for the pro's, but it seems like most of them are playing in the NASL for the money ... not because they actually enjoy playing in it.
NASL needs to rethink their priorities.
I have a hard time imagining TakeSen having trouble attracting the top pro's in the world to crash on his couch next year. And all he really did was rent some decent equipment and made sandwiches for people.
This quote made me remember when Naniwa (a player known for hating losses and that became visibly upset after losing a finals in the most chill tournament ever) was eliminated and said in game "finally I am done with NASL".
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
THIS.
In many ways, the NASL feels and looks like "the player's league." A massive prize pool; a round robin format that rewards the best and most consistent performers; anyone from any server can apply, etc. They even have (had) players as casters.
Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
On paper, all this sounds like a great strategy to attract players and keep them happy. But it's asses-in-seats and customers that pay your bills at the end of the day. And the irony is, as much as players want to win money, they also want to be associated with an event that is popular, and that people enjoy and respect.
I can't speak for the pro's, but it seems like most of them are playing in the NASL for the money ... not because they actually enjoy playing in it.
NASL needs to rethink their priorities.
I have a hard time imagining TakeSen having trouble attracting the top pro's in the world to crash on his couch next year. And all he really did was rent some decent equipment and made sandwiches for people.
This quote made me remember when Naniwa (a player known for hating losses and that became visibly upset after losing a finals in the most chill tournament ever) was eliminated and said in game "finally I am done with NASL".
That was more of an issue with latency and playing at bad hours, which are beyond the control of the NASL (they're based in North America, so it's only fair they schedule matches accordingly)
Wow kids in this thread,. Worst tournament ever" QQ, its 100k for starcraft two and all u fucking whiny bitches complain complain complain, just be happy a tournament this big is going on, if u dont watch it live im sure there is gunna be VoD's of it, please stop QQing
On July 11 2011 00:59 OscarN wrote: Wow kids in this thread,. Worst tournament ever" QQ, its 100k for starcraft two and all u fucking whiny bitches complain complain complain, just be happy a tournament this big is going on, if u dont watch it live im sure there is gunna be VoD's of it, please stop QQing
Constructive criticism is good because it allows an event to determine what viewer experience was like and to correct their flaws. If every1 said nothing NASL runs the risk of making the same mistakes, which is detrimental for everyone involved. If the community is vocal about the format, downtime, maps, production quality, audio, etc, chances are the people running this league will take the complaints into consideration and improve their product.
All the technical difficulties would have been bearable if they had a steady supply of games. However, with the BO3 single elimination they simply had way too few games for a 3-day event and the excessive downtime made the poor production values stand out more.
Next time BO5 Double-elim and I might check it out again
Day 2 went great. Thanks for working hard to solve the issues of day one.
Big thank yous > After Sen/Darkforce the sound quality from the commentators was spot on, with only a couple exceptions. Thank you thank you thank you. The best sound producer is one that nobody knows is even there.
> Roaming interviews is a great way to fill time and something I've suggested a few times in the past in relation to MLG. Lindsey Sporrer, bless her foibles, is exactly the sort of person who can make anyone feel like they're important when on camera and she did a good job getting what would be a stereotypically shy crowd to speak up
> Dropping the hype videos before the semis was such a relief, love them to bits but one showing only per VT reel please! More of the same pre-prepared for when players advance would be very welcome!
> You seem to be taking all the feedback from previous events like MLG on board. On stage interviews, hype videos, hosts introducing the games and adequate seating for fans is coooool
Places for improvement at future events > Consider hiring a staffed auditorium instead of an exhibition hall ala Dreamhack's 1,100 seater Dreamarena Extreme[2] would save on having to do your own production on the stage management side. That way the crowd get a more intimate experience and you get to focus on the event operations.
> At an event where every single game is broadcast, IMO it's cool to schedule short and run the risk of going notionally "late" rather than have 45 minutes of downtime when a game goes a quick 2-0. Dreamhack Invitational used the same format as your event (starting at the Ro8), and everyone would agree they cracked it.
> Instead of being exciting, single elim from the outset seemed unsatisfying with many fan favourites going out at the first stage. I like the GSL group format as every game matters, but round robin would be cool too.
> On a similar note the open bracket wildcard seems imba, and I'd rather see all the focus on a truly open and free to enter regular season qualification system. There's no free rides or lucky brackets on the way to the $50,000 first prize of MLG Providence
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
THIS.
In many ways, the NASL feels and looks like "the player's league." A massive prize pool; a round robin format that rewards the best and most consistent performers; anyone from any server can apply, etc. They even have (had) players as casters.
Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
On paper, all this sounds like a great strategy to attract players and keep them happy. But it's asses-in-seats and customers that pay your bills at the end of the day. And the irony is, as much as players want to win money, they also want to be associated with an event that is popular, and that people enjoy and respect.
I can't speak for the pro's, but it seems like most of them are playing in the NASL for the money ... not because they actually enjoy playing in it.
NASL needs to rethink their priorities.
I have a hard time imagining TakeSen having trouble attracting the top pro's in the world to crash on his couch next year. And all he really did was rent some decent equipment and made sandwiches for people.
This quote made me remember when Naniwa (a player known for hating losses and that became visibly upset after losing a finals in the most chill tournament ever) was eliminated and said in game "finally I am done with NASL".
That was more of an issue with latency and playing at bad hours, which are beyond the control of the NASL (they're based in North America, so it's only fair they schedule matches accordingly)
They could have let players played on their server if they're from the same region. The live experience was useless too (at first I believed it was coming from replays) and that would allow players to play at a proper time.
I know this may be a dumb question. But is there still NASL today? (It's 6pm on Suday right now) Because it says that it'll be from Friday to Sunday but I don't see anything in their schedule.
On July 11 2011 01:45 Fuckyeah wrote: I know this may be a dumb question. But is there still NASL today? (It's 6pm on Suday right now) Because it says that it'll be from Friday to Sunday but I don't see anything in their schedule.
format - no more single elim please, im sure players really enjoyed flying 20 hours there to just lose 1 bo3 in 15 minutes.
sound - test everything on the stream, im sure the mics were all great at the live event, but on the stream they were pretty bad. esp the translator mics, most of the time it seemed like they werent even on for the stream. even have a computer with the stream on so u can see what is wrong
On July 10 2011 12:14 DontGiveUp wrote: I still can't watch because of lag (premium ticket holder). Tried in two PCs with two different internet provider connections. I have no hope of ever getting a refund, as Ive been complaining since week1 to no avail. NASL will never get a dollar from me again.
I'm almost 100% certain this is on youur end. All of the games i've watched so far I had to do on my cell phone with terrible reception due to not being at home/access to a computter, and I haven't experienced any lag at all.
On July 11 2011 01:59 zev318 wrote: downtime/schedule - less of it please dear god
format - no more single elim please, im sure players really enjoyed flying 20 hours there to just lose 1 bo3 in 15 minutes.
sound - test everything on the stream, im sure the mics were all great at the live event, but on the stream they were pretty bad. esp the translator mics, most of the time it seemed like they werent even on for the stream. even have a computer with the stream on so u can see what is wrong
my 3 major issues, please fix :D
this basically
i was looking at the calendar and thinking "ooh, starting at 8pm local, might actually be able to watch the final" then noticing that they've scheduled an hour of junk, two hours for a bo5 ZvZ and then another hour of downtime before the final
schedule - too much downtime between matches and basically not suitable for euros (for weekends it's less of an issue but 2 am finals on monday is a problem if you have to work on monday!). Perhaps an EU rebroadcast next time?
pr - lots of anger can be avoided if we would actually know what is going. Instead people have to guess or find out days later what was wrong.
format - one bo3 for 15 hours of flying is not cool.
ya maps selection has got to go, who the hell plays on PREDETERMINED maps for EVERY SINGLE match? this isn't CS where both teams can play on both sides so neither have a real advantage. certain races on certain maps are very difficult to play etc etc, let the losers pick next map, i dont know why that was an issue for the organizers.
were they like omg we can't let them pick, that would take up too much time.
-let the casters do the interviews and ask (detail) questions about the games just played instead of standard interview questions. Asking 8 Korean scII pros how they feel after the game, yields 8 times the same answer unfortunately. I would rather hear them explain why they made the decision that won them the game.
-reduce downtime heavily. I would suggest starting one game after the other straight away. If you dont want to do that for some reason: U know matchups beforehand, so use average match length for sheduling --> no 1,5h timeslot for bo3 ZvZ. Otherwise just improvise, e.g. ask those who lost on day1 to play some showmatches (would have been great day2, instead of 45min downtime between 2 ZvZ).
-get a good non-casting observer. One of the major things, that makes GSL by far the most enjoyable stream to me, is that the korean observer is just awesome, showing all the relevant information to understand what is going on in the game, while having smooth camera movement all the time. Good observing is NOT easy!
Here are my two cents. Sorry in advance if there are repeats. I didn't read all 35 pages of this thread.
1. The "Journey to the Finals" videos were great, however, I suggest introducing the players first and then playing those videos as the players are getting their settings in order / warming up. I felt that multiple times those journey videos pumped me up to see the two players face off, only to have to wait 20-30 more minutes while they fixed their settings.
2. This may be more of a personal opinion, but I really prefer a double elimination format (Group Play format or Bracket Format). It sucks seeing all of these amazing players fly over and then lose 0-2 and be done for the tournament. Yes one could argue that the single-elimination makes the games seem more important, however, as a fan, I would much rather see more action out of all of these great players. This would possibly require a second stream to accomplish, but it would certainly be worth it.
3. Sound has already been mentioned multiple times, not going to repeat it.
4. I see so many people calling for a Plott Brothers dual cast ( Day9 + Tasteless). Please Please Please make it happen :D
Secondly, MLG has millions of dollars to spend, NASL does not. Moreover, I'm pretty sure if we looked at MLG's balance sheet it would look entirely different than NASL's. A large chunk, seemingly, of NASL's budget is going into their prize pool. Prize pool is likely MLG's smallest expenditure. If they are spending more than 10% of their budget on prize pool, they are doing it wrong.
THIS.
In many ways, the NASL feels and looks like "the player's league." A massive prize pool; a round robin format that rewards the best and most consistent performers; anyone from any server can apply, etc. They even have (had) players as casters.
Using the same maps over and over for the playoffs is a perfect example of a decision designed to make things fair for players, but is absolutely horrible from a broadcasting and entertainment perspective.
On paper, all this sounds like a great strategy to attract players and keep them happy. But it's asses-in-seats and customers that pay your bills at the end of the day. And the irony is, as much as players want to win money, they also want to be associated with an event that is popular, and that people enjoy and respect.
I can't speak for the pro's, but it seems like most of them are playing in the NASL for the money ... not because they actually enjoy playing in it.
NASL needs to rethink their priorities.
I have a hard time imagining TakeSen having trouble attracting the top pro's in the world to crash on his couch next year. And all he really did was rent some decent equipment and made sandwiches for people.
This quote made me remember when Naniwa (a player known for hating losses and that became visibly upset after losing a finals in the most chill tournament ever) was eliminated and said in game "finally I am done with NASL".
That was more of an issue with latency and playing at bad hours, which are beyond the control of the NASL (they're based in North America, so it's only fair they schedule matches accordingly)
I think bad hours and latency are issues, but not the primary issues. The same way that a constantly changing location doesn't prevent guys like Naniwa or TLO from flying to MLG.
If NASL had amazing production quality, great and consistent casting, helpful and attentive organizers, the best competitors, and was basically the hottest thing in SC2, than European and Korean players would be crawling over each other to participate. They wouldn't give a shit about latency or playing hours.
Letting Gretorp and Incontrol cast the finals is like having someone take a shit on your chest in terms of giving the audiance what it wants. You guys are completely up your own asses.
NASL is timing out anyone who criticizes them in the stream chat right now. What a joke of an organization. I just wish they would take criticism better and not dismiss it as simple trolling and internet hate.
well they already got the criticizes , now its just pure hating wich is not really needed, if they want to check the issues again i guess they'll just open TL
My only thought is that you should never start a match earlier than the initially announced time. If you were unfortunate enough to look at the schedule and go off of that, you would have missed over half of the 3rd place match. I'm fine if they have to delay the start for technical reasons or whatever, but don't start earlier than proposed without making a big announcement about it.
NASL just feels like an organisation that is throwing money around, they've brought in Day9 and Tastosis, rented out a hall much bigger than needed, put on a 3day event that could have been done in 2, the equipment they've bought seems like overkill.
It feels like they've hired their friends rather than the best people for the job. The same issues keep on appearing time after time.
Will not be giving them any more of my money. It's a shame really, as they've put on some good games but the production and organisation has been beyond terrible.
Take managed put together the best event of the year from his house and with a lot less money.
Jesus christ, people like to whine about stupid shit!
The production values are just fine now for the finals, so what's the big problem lol? Personally I feel that Gretorp especially, who has been doing quality work the last two months (I consider it quality work, his casting is imo extremely entertaining, and just because certain others believe otherwise only goes to show that opinions do in fact exist) and working his ass off casting for NASL. Show some respect for this guy.
Out of all you people whining and complaining and whatnot, I hope we can all agree that the most important part of the NASL, the games, have been pretty spectacular so far.
On July 11 2011 05:27 Ikuu wrote: NASL just feels like an organisation that is throwing money around, they've brought in Day9 and Tastosis, rented out a hall much bigger than needed, put on a 3day event that could have been done in 2, the equipment they've bought seems like overkill.
It feels like they've hired their friends rather than the best people for the job. The same issues keep on appearing time after time.
Will not be giving them any more of my money. It's a shame really, as they've put on some good games but the production and organisation has been beyond terrible.
Take managed put together the best event of the year from his house and with a lot less money.
I think it's been gone over before, but didn't Take spend like 45000 euros on the HSC3?
On July 11 2011 02:24 zev318 wrote: ya maps selection has got to go, who the hell plays on PREDETERMINED maps for EVERY SINGLE match? this isn't CS where both teams can play on both sides so neither have a real advantage. certain races on certain maps are very difficult to play etc etc, let the losers pick next map, i dont know why that was an issue for the organizers.
were they like omg we can't let them pick, that would take up too much time.
I'm pretty sure that predetermined maps are fairly common, I know the GSL does it, although they allow players to veto a map and every series is on different maps.
On July 11 2011 05:27 Ikuu wrote: NASL just feels like an organisation that is throwing money around, they've brought in Day9 and Tastosis, rented out a hall much bigger than needed, put on a 3day event that could have been done in 2, the equipment they've bought seems like overkill.
It feels like they've hired their friends rather than the best people for the job. The same issues keep on appearing time after time.
Will not be giving them any more of my money. It's a shame really, as they've put on some good games but the production and organisation has been beyond terrible.
Take managed put together the best event of the year from his house and with a lot less money.
I think it's been gone over before, but didn't Take spend like 45000 euros on the HSC3?
Yes he did but for the whole new apartment which he will be using in the future and considering 100k prize money only for nasl the production value really differs.
THIS JUST IN: NASL Season 1 Final bo7 between MC and PuMa has moved up the calender to 2:30pm Pacific Time ( 5:30pm Eastern Time 22:30 London 23:30 Central Europe 24:30 Ukraine 25:30 Moscow 5:30 Taiwan 6:30 Korea).
On July 11 2011 05:27 Ikuu wrote: NASL just feels like an organisation that is throwing money around, they've brought in Day9 and Tastosis, rented out a hall much bigger than needed, put on a 3day event that could have been done in 2, the equipment they've bought seems like overkill.
It feels like they've hired their friends rather than the best people for the job. The same issues keep on appearing time after time.
Will not be giving them any more of my money. It's a shame really, as they've put on some good games but the production and organisation has been beyond terrible.
Take managed put together the best event of the year from his house and with a lot less money.
I think it's been gone over before, but didn't Take spend like 45000 euros on the HSC3?
Yes he did but for the whole new apartment which he will be using in the future and considering 100k prize money only for nasl the production value really differs.
I thought he spent 4500 euros out of his own pocket, but I could be wrong
You guys can't be serious, Gretorp and Incontrol have put in so much work and cast the entire season for months, it's only fitting that they do the final.
On July 11 2011 05:42 Armaz wrote: You guys can't be serious, Gretorp and Incontrol have put in so much work and cast the entire season for months, it's only fitting that they do the final.
It doesn't matter how much some people "think" they deserve to cast. Fact of the matter is, is that Tastosis is better, and they are there, and it's the final game. So if they were thinking about the best experience for the audience (instead of their own ego), it is only fitting for Tastosis to cast the grand finals.
On July 11 2011 05:42 Armaz wrote: You guys can't be serious, Gretorp and Incontrol have put in so much work and cast the entire season for months, it's only fitting that they do the final.
Well I mostly missed the whole season because I could not listen to them and because the production was bad even then.
On July 11 2011 05:46 Fubi wrote: It doesn't matter how much some people "think" they deserve to cast. Fact of the matter is, is that Tastosis is better, and they are there, and it's the final game. So if they were thinking about the best experience for the audience (instead of their own ego), it is only fitting for Tastosis to cast the grand finals.
I really doubt Tasteless would want to cast the final anyway, his voice is pretty much gone.
You know what would be awesome during the downtime? day9 re-casting the replays from the Sen-July match on the stream. Closest to an "instant replay" we can get in esports. Knowing the outcome, he can speed up or slow down for the best parts, too.
Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
Good luck! I love your casting, and especially the "sharking" you introduced.
On July 11 2011 05:54 iNcontroL wrote: And by "won't change things" I mean for this final. If you have constructive criticism please share that do future events can be more to your liking.
Haters gunna hate.
You guys are Grand Masters yourself, I enjoy watching Tastosis just as much as you and Gretorp.
We can't have Tastosis and Day[9] casting every single tournament.
Haters gonna hate, but oh well.
GL HF to iNcontrol and Gretorp!!
On July 11 2011 05:59 froGGifyre wrote: It really should be the better casters and for the people that pay not you, quite selfish iNcontrol.
"I'm iNcontrol and I'm a selfish bastard. It's not like I've been casting and helping the NASL for 9 weeks straight, cutting into precious practice and personal time. I really should let Tastosis step in a the very last minute and steal the show, completely invalidating the hours upon hours I put into the season, but I'm a dick so I'm not going to let them do that!"
I actually dont think Tastosis is as good as everyone say. I really enjoy Gretorp and Incontrol for some reason, which makes me more than happy to hear they're doing the finals!
Anyway, apart from the casting issue I dont really have much to say about NASL. I didn't watch most of the season, but this live event is by far the greatest foreigner tourney I've watched. Sure, loads of breaks and waiting, but I think it's very well done. People have been working their asses off to make this as awesoem as possible, and I think they've delivered. I've been sleeping about 5 hours since friday just to watch everything, and it's all been worth it!
On July 11 2011 05:42 Armaz wrote: You guys can't be serious, Gretorp and Incontrol have put in so much work and cast the entire season for months, it's only fitting that they do the final.
It doesn't matter how much some people "think" they deserve to cast. Fact of the matter is, is that Tastosis is better, and they are there, and it's the final game. So if they were thinking about the best experience for the audience (instead of their own ego), it is only fitting for Tastosis to cast the grand finals.
So it doesn't make sense that NASL should close out their own event with their own casters? I love Tastosis, and do agree they are better then Gretorp/Incontrol, but they really shouldn't cast the finals. Gretorp and Incontrol have put so much work into this tournament and into their casting for the entire league.
Tastosis and Day9 cast like every tournament, let Gretorp and Incontrol finish casting the league they've been working on for the past three months.
I would vastly prefer day9 / Tastosis casting the finals personally, but maybe that's just me. No point flying people half across the world to an event if you aren't going to get all the bang for your buck. Maybe NASL should do what MLG did and have multiple teams cast the finals so people could pick their preference ?
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
I for one will completely enjoy the games, and have no problem with you and Gretorp casting the finals. It seems only right seeing as you two have been the face of the NASL up to this point. The fact of who is the better caster isn't relevant imo when both caster duos are great, but again this is just opinion. The point I'm trying to make is Tastosis was basically brought in as a bonus for the 3-day event (which is totally awesome btw!!), whereas Gretorp & InControl have been with us the whole way through season 1 of the NASL.
Know what I find funny? People saying they wont pay for the casting from Incontrol and gretorp. Putting aside that I find them to be great casters, because they deliver what -I- like to get out of casters.. Really? Like, do you only watch the GSL to hear tastosis talk about the game? Because personally I watch starcraft 2 because I like to watch starcraft 2, having great casters are an addition to that. But hell, I might just be odd and be one of the only ones watching that actually enjoys the games, that's what i'm getting from this thread atleast.
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
You two don't compare to the tens of thousands watching this always put them first, it's this exact reason why you and your organisation are god awful. I'm going to watch tv instead.
I really love it seing incontrol reading this during the event taking the feedback and staying real calm when his person is being critisized, big props to you incontrol and besides the flaws that obviously occured, there is no way denieng that, it is a huge and great event.
On July 11 2011 06:04 absalom86 wrote: I would vastly prefer day9 / Tastosis casting the finals personally, but maybe that's just me. No point flying people half across the world to an event if you aren't going to get all the bang for your buck. Maybe NASL should do what MLG did and have multiple teams cast the finals so people could pick their preference ?
This. It feels like a bait and switch. "Lets fly 3 of the best casters in the world out to cast a few games each but we're gonna keep our amateur casters in for the big matchups!" wat?
I enjoy Incontrol and day9 just as much as day 9 and gretorp, just as much as tastetosis, and Incontrol and Gretorp are just as good as well in my eyes.
Besides, the casters do not influnce the fact that we get to watch PuMa the monster from the SC1 practice houses go up against the best BossToss in the business.
Sit down, Shut the fuck up, and enjoy the epic as shit games that are about to be played.
Im really impressed by Linsey Sporrer and how well she did the improv interviews. Also, always dressed very appropriately.
Really huge props for being able to get the shy nerds to open up and start talking so freely on camera! That's a feat in itself. And to anyone bashing on her for not knowing much about SC2 - well, she's learning ... and it's not easy at all to do improv interviews and keep it easy and flowing on live TV!
Most people make things like that feel too stiff or awkward. I would LOVE to see her doing the main stage interviews next time too - I know NASL is all about "this person deserves it", but giving the BETTER person the job leads to BETTER production, over pleasing someone important's girlfriend.
Same about letting the better and more popular casters cast the finals ... :/
The main problem of NASL right now is how CHEAP the event looks. With such a huge prize pool, one rightfully expects a much, much higher production level. No matter how epic Tastosis/Day9 are, the stage/booth setup is horrendous, and the sound quality still has issues even on the 3rd day.
I understand there might have been financial issues, but how expensive could it have been to get someone to paint a beautiful SC2 themed background for the stage, and put lights in the player booths, as well as some appropriate spot lights for the stage?!
Regarding games, my zerg heart is still heartbroken over Sen losing to MC in such a dramatic way </3 Really epic matches so far though.
On July 11 2011 05:42 Armaz wrote: You guys can't be serious, Gretorp and Incontrol have put in so much work and cast the entire season for months, it's only fitting that they do the final.
It doesn't matter how much some people "think" they deserve to cast. Fact of the matter is, is that Tastosis is better, and they are there, and it's the final game. So if they were thinking about the best experience for the audience (instead of their own ego), it is only fitting for Tastosis to cast the grand finals.
So it doesn't make sense that NASL should close out their own event with their own casters? I love Tastosis, and do agree they are better then Gretorp/Incontrol, but they really shouldn't cast the finals. Gretorp and Incontrol have put so much work into this tournament and into their casting for the entire league.
Tastosis and Day9 cast like every tournament, let Gretorp and Incontrol finish casting the league they've been working on for the past three months.
Yes, it doesn't make sense that NASL is closing out their own event with potentially less quality than they could of offered. Any good company would always put customers first. At the very least, provide dual stream with dual casting like Dreamhack did so the viewers can pick themselves.
I've literally seen Tastosis cast one match this whole weekend myself (admittedly I haven't seen all the matches yet due to long delays). It's such a waste of talents imo.
On July 11 2011 06:10 oursblanc wrote: They should really, 100%, without question, put a time up on the stream of when the finals match is going to start.
Because the schedule on their website is several hours off. Who knows how many viewers they are losing.
Theyre losing me. I made plans to go watch the finals at the Toronto meetup after work tonight. I've been looking forward to it all through this shitty week. Now I get to miss them cause NASL decides to move them up 90 mins with no advance notice. Thanks for fucking ruining my week.
Sound checks before going live should fix the audio problems, also testing the mic before going live can also do the trick.
if you are going to have a 16players playing just a single elimination plz dont make 1h breaks after one match, its unreal for ppl viewers to get 3 days of their lives (we do have jobs and social activities) its so frustrading to just take 3 days of my weekend to watch just 16matches in total.
Change the final event format, making them come so far for just one bo3 can be pointless specially if the cash pool is so big, having them play quicker and less breaks can help, can you imagine they are wainting for 8hs to play their last game (MC vs Boxer) after 10hs of waiting
Basically get better production team someone with experience it looks like NASL was run by a lot of university students and things were fixed on the run, not profesional at all and you cant ask ppl to pay 25 dollars for that
Its cool to have day9, tasteless and artosis, we reconize the amount of effor from incontrol and gretorp but i mean come on this is not the school were you do things for effort, you give a product we and we pay, you should give us the BEST casters available, i dont hate incontrol nor gretorp but not having the best duo casting doing the finals is a shame.
Im not going to pay for the next season of NASL until i see better production value on it.
On July 11 2011 06:10 Pred8oar wrote: I really love it seing incontrol reading this during the event taking the feedback and staying real calm when his person is being critisized, big props to you incontrol and besides the flaws that obviously occured, there is no way denieng that, it is a huge and great event.
On July 11 2011 05:54 iNcontroL wrote: And by "won't change things" I mean for this final. If you have constructive criticism please share that do future events can be more to your liking.
I've personally enjoyed your casting thus far, people are whiny and will complain about any little thing in life. I'm glad you are casting the final as it's your last cast as an official NASL caster!
i'm surprised they didn't try doing something like rotate casters during the finals
game 1: gretorp+inc game 2: day9+inc game 3: day9+gretorp game 4: tasteless+artosis
etc or whatever rotation you prefer, the possibilities are endless you're guaranteed 4 games, so with 5 casters they're all guaranteed to cast at least 1 game, you put tastosis on game 4 and 7 for maximum excitement if it's a 4-0 or a 4-3
there's are lots of things to complain about, but tastosis being underused isn't one of them, they've actually casted approximately 1/3 of the games in the tournament
I think the scheduling hurt the event a lot. It was a terrible schedule. Look at the original day 3 finals schedule. If they stuck w/ the original schedule, there would have been massive downtime of nothing so that would be terrible. But since they changed the schedule to have matches sooner, this also screw the people that used the schedule to show up and watch the matches. I think there would have been much more viewers if the original schedule was a lot better and less downtime.
I think Lindsay is awful the esport is about SC2 and it's from the community for the community. Bringing in a outsider with 0 knowledge of to what ask is just incompetent i just shows you that you got money. And then you are destroying more then you are creating..
"TylerWasieleski Tyler Wasieleski Anyone who is capable of talking on camera is either going to hit on her or troll. This is futile and I love it"
I bet that you could get day9 or any of the other casters that are there to ask the question so we get some nice answers..
On July 11 2011 06:10 Pred8oar wrote: I really love it seing incontrol reading this during the event taking the feedback and staying real calm when his person is being critisized, big props to you incontrol and besides the flaws that obviously occured, there is no way denieng that, it is a huge and great event.
well make sure you don't miss the finals since u seems to be quite busy spending time between his buttocks getting ur tongue a nice tan.
On July 11 2011 05:29 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Out of all you people whining and complaining and whatnot, I hope we can all agree that the most important part of the NASL, the games, have been pretty spectacular so far.
Yes, but there are other places which we can find spectacular games.
NASL isn't offering anything dramatically unique. Amazing games and series will happen with or without NASL, so I think its sort of a moot point to talk about the value that pro starcraft players bring in a tournament.
I mean, you could be watching the greatest Super Bowl in history but it would be unbearable for the viewers to sit through long waits, terrible commentary and half assed audio.
On July 11 2011 06:21 zasda wrote: well make sure you don't miss the finals since u seems to be quite busy spending time between his buttocks getting ur tongue a nice tan.
Casting wise I will say that I am a little dissapointed not to have day9 or tasty casting, but incontrol is hilarious so I can live with that... However I would say for an event that has been planned for several months, and has had a considerable amount of money posted into it(I can only assume, considering the prizepool), i would say the productiuon value comes off(on the stream at least) as amateurish in a big way. The stage is so bland that my eyes hurt, the introductions are the most awkward i have ever seen, and then there is sound/camera issues en masse.
It feels like a lot of people who are so and so at what they do pretend to be very good at what they do, and as a result it all falls to shambles.
And why is everyones girlfriend here doing terrible interviews? really? Whatever! here's a to a kickass final!
Casting is important, but not the end all be all for an event. The games will make the finals, not the casting.
The people that are complaining about having payed for the event and getting screwed over with "lesser casters" need to realize that the ONLY thing the payed for is the higher quality for the stream and no adds. Nothing else. Stop being stupid.
Great great event overall. The interviews really brought the whole thing down, But a lot can be forgiven because its the first season. Next season im sure we can see more professionals working on the audio and productions, as well as the interviews.
Really wish Tastosis casted the final match though
I get the feeling that people won't be satisfied with any event unless they get the following:
Casters: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 MC: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Interviewers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Event Organizers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Ticket Vendors: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Bo7 in Round of 16, Bo13 in Round of 8, Bo19 in Round of 4, and Bo33 in Finals, with Double Eliminations.
On July 11 2011 06:34 kaisuki wrote: I get the feeling that people won't be satisfied with any event unless they get the following:
Casters: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 MC: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Interviewers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Event Organizers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Ticket Vendors: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Bo7 in Round of 16, Bo13 in Round of 8, Bo19 in Round of 4, and Bo33 in Finals, with Double Eliminations.
Or you know, it could just be on the same level as mlg columbus or IEM or the last two dreamhacks, or homestory cup or the gsl or IPL or TLopens ffs
As a general thing, it seems like despite all the preparation for this event, they were still winging it.
The importance of a 'dress rehearsal' of sorts can not be understated. Get the lights on, cameras rolling. Stream it to a private channel and have a practice match between 2 anybodies and see how it all looks. Dry runs will help work out the kinks for when the real show starts, and I get the impression that this wasn't really done. (You can sort of tell by the first day volume differences between casters, shaky improv camera angles, etc).
I was extremely disappointed with the glaring lights throughout the event, it had a real feel of someones camcorder in the back of the room which was unfortunate.
On July 11 2011 06:34 kaisuki wrote: I get the feeling that people won't be satisfied with any event unless they get the following:
Casters: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 MC: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Interviewers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Event Organizers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Ticket Vendors: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Bo7 in Round of 16, Bo13 in Round of 8, Bo19 in Round of 4, and Bo33 in Finals, with Double Eliminations.
Or you know, it could just be on the same level as mlg columbus or IEM or the last two dreamhacks, or homestory cup or the gsl or IPL or TLopens ffs
You know, it could be the first time that they're running this event, while the others have been going on for awhile and still have their issues, or they didn't have to deal with the offline part of the event at all?
On July 11 2011 06:34 kaisuki wrote: I get the feeling that people won't be satisfied with any event unless they get the following:
Casters: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 MC: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Interviewers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Event Organizers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Ticket Vendors: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Bo7 in Round of 16, Bo13 in Round of 8, Bo19 in Round of 4, and Bo33 in Finals, with Double Eliminations.
Or you know, it could just be on the same level as mlg columbus or IEM or the last two dreamhacks, or homestory cup or the gsl or IPL or TLopens ffs
You know, it could be the first time that they're running this event, while the others have been going on for awhile and still have their issues, or they didn't have to deal with the offline part of the event at all?
They could have hired people who had done it before though. It being the first time is only an excuse if they hadnt seen how much other people had struggled with it. Dress rehearsals, hiring experience, etc. would have helped but werent done. The audio and set are middle school level. It doesnt take genius to set up a good schedule.
Point is, you're going to be compared to your competition, and NASL failed miserably compared to every other major event in the last few months.
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
Don't worry, I'll enjoy them listening to music while the stream is muted. Good games are good games. Shit casting can be ignored.
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
Who are you putting this show on for?
Yourself or the viewers?
Ask yourself that one.
I think there is something to be said about the casters/production team if they are asking their viewers, who paid to watch this, to 'dig deep' to the finish.
On July 11 2011 06:34 kaisuki wrote: I get the feeling that people won't be satisfied with any event unless they get the following:
Casters: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 MC: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Interviewers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Event Organizers: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Ticket Vendors: Tasteless, Artosis and Day9 Bo7 in Round of 16, Bo13 in Round of 8, Bo19 in Round of 4, and Bo33 in Finals, with Double Eliminations.
Or you know, it could just be on the same level as mlg columbus or IEM or the last two dreamhacks, or homestory cup or the gsl or IPL or TLopens ffs
You know, it could be the first time that they're running this event, while the others have been going on for awhile and still have their issues, or they didn't have to deal with the offline part of the event at all?
They could have hired people who had done it before though. It being the first time is only an excuse if they hadnt seen how much other people had struggled with it. Dress rehearsals, hiring experience, etc. would have helped but werent done. The audio and set are middle school level. It doesnt take genius to set up a good schedule.
Point is, you're going to be compared to your competition, and NASL failed miserably compared to every other major event in the last few months.
Honestly having to watch the NASL finals on mute is pretty bad when they have 3 of the best english commentators that they flew in for this event. It just shows that they are in no way committed to running good events and just want to watch friends ruin and fail at putting on an event.
It's been about 80% downtime, MLG had less downtime with massive internet failures. They also seem completely inept at sound, stage, and basically every aspect possible.
Even the caster area is terrible, with an obviously tacked on 30 dollar banner. They didn't even bother tacking it on besides at the corners so the top part droops down a bit. It's absolutely terrible and to "forgive" them is silly. It's bad, supporting bad things just leads to more bad. It's been months and months since NASL started and I still dont care to watch it, yet I'll stay up super late on occasion to catch a good night of GSL matches.
It's hard to give any suggestions, because unlike MLG, NASL doesn't seem to actually be taking any of the issues seriously. The casters/crew/organizers seem to be taking the stance "it's good enough stop whining"
I wouldnt call objectively looking at a bad event and saying it is bad as whining.
Please back the stage away from the crowd... being able to hear precisely what it shouted seems rather unprofessional and is asking for trouble. It's nice that there's a crowd, but just the applause and cheers is sufficient.
Edit: Really incontrol, a President Bush jab? Tastless and Artosis are at this event, the undisputed best casters, they casted the semis, but for the grand finals they aren't casting?
On July 11 2011 07:15 Siphyo wrote: All I want casters that don't use the words meticulous and high yield. Is that too much to ask?
How the hell do you go through a SC2 macro game without the phrase "high yield" - sure you can say "gold minerals" but really now?
These finals are insane! PuMa is making this an incredible series to watch - he is making MC look like a bronze leaguer. My only suggestion would be to make the game sounds a little higher but it doesn't bother me to much because of my love for Gretorp and iNc
I really thought that this would be a nice tournament but the format totally destroyed it for me. Why should there be someone going through an open tournament after group phases (who is likely to be insanely good since a lot of extremely good players did not "qualify" for the league), go on to play the number one spot and is then likely to win it all? Does not seem fair to me. Also this visa thing with some players (Nightend and Tarson if I remember correctly!?). Casting was okay, not the best but could have been worse, I just do not understand why if (arguably) the best casting combo (Tasteless and Artosis) is at the event casting the games it is not going to cast the finals. Pretty much a "waste" to me. If the NASL fixes this stuff and maybe also shortens the duration of the entire league a bit it should be fine.
I really don't agree with letting Incontrol and Gretorp cast the finals.
Some say they deserve it more, but NASL doesn't need to be fair, what they should strive to do is to bring the best product possible. This is not it, anyone can tell you as much.
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
I respect this. But why did NASL even invite other professional casters in the first place? You and Gretorp could easily have handled all the games by yourself.
You are not a bad caster at all but people get a little bit disappointed when NASL hyped and advertised that Tastosis and Day9 would be there to cast the finals. From the information I got before the finals I drew the conclusion that Tastosis and Day9 would cast all the games, and the role of you and Gretorp would be more like hosts.
I wish I couldn't hear every click that they made. It's driving me insane.
[QUOTE]On July 11 2011 07:35 Batch wrote: [QUOTE]On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless. [/QUOTE]
Incontrol, I assume you know how businesses work. This won't happen again next year.
I have to agree. Tastosis and Day9 did woefully little work considering how much it must have cost to bring them out.
Having said that the finals is coming up on 80,000 viewers at once.
That makes it among the best in SC history and def worthy of praise. Fix a lot of the problems and I can see 100,000 next time (esp if we have a non-korean in the finals).
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
Who are you putting this show on for?
Yourself or the viewers?
Ask yourself that one.
I think there is something to be said about the casters/production team if they are asking their viewers, who paid to watch this, to 'dig deep' to the finish.
Yeah... most of us have dug deep the entire season, plagued by bad Vod system (are they still not anything but 1080p?) Bad audio, etc etc.
Come on, for once we just want to watch the games and enjoy ourselves without having anything to feel frustrated or irritated about... but this is almost like a comedy by now, everything that can go wrong or get interpreted badly gets as such and by now the laughter are all out and we're just feeling shame and sorrow for it all.
Nice event nevertheless but please learn to next time, learn from everyone, because I doupt the NASL will make another season after season 2 if they don't improve tenfolds.
I feel like InControl is doing just fine as a caster... I'm not as familiar with Gretorp's casting, so I'd be lying if I didn't say I'd rather see Day 9 sitting in that spot.
But the broadcast is going fine. The games are good and the casters are doing an excellent job of staying on top of everything.
On July 11 2011 05:53 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry I'm not as good of a caster as tastosis. Gretorp and I are finishing things out because we are the nasl casters. Hating on me, gretorp or the nasl for it won't change things. Please dig deep and try to enjoy the games regardless.
I'm glad you guys are casting the finals. It's not that I have a problem with tastosis, but I think you and gretorp are very close to as good. You have the same depth of knowledge, you are both articulate and you make the same silly jokes. In all honesty, you guys casted most of NASL, you deserve to be casting the finals.
On July 11 2011 05:29 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Out of all you people whining and complaining and whatnot, I hope we can all agree that the most important part of the NASL, the games, have been pretty spectacular so far.
Yes, but there are other places which we can find spectacular games.
NASL isn't offering anything dramatically unique. Amazing games and series will happen with or without NASL, so I think its sort of a moot point to talk about the value that pro starcraft players bring in a tournament.
I mean, you could be watching the greatest Super Bowl in history but it would be unbearable for the viewers to sit through long waits, terrible commentary and half assed audio.
Well then you're dumb. If you're seriously more worried about waiting (go take a nap), bad commentary (which is false, because 5 of the best english casters in the world are at this event), and half assed audio (which is perfectly fine during the game, I know other than that it sucks but hey that's not what's important) than the point of the ACTUAL EVENT, then you shouldn't even be watching Starcraft.
I really wanted tastosis to cast,but gretorp and incontrol are doing a really good job. I didn't watch much nasl since the beginning of the season, and they've really improved a lot.
What is the reason for the stream lagging during big battles? GSL, MLG, TSL, user streams, EG Masters' Cup, they all work fine except for this stream. Are they running Pentium 2's or what? Really disappointing, I have yet to see a complete big battle go on.
you get used to them and their weird casting style so even if you dont like it, it just feels right to have them here
what did i dislike... hmmmm beginnig day 3: worst camera/lighting work ever with day9 introducing and there wasnt even a spot light anywhere installed those girls doing interviews (cmon the casters talk the whole game, see everything and ask questions during the game and the interview is consisting of *how do you feel?* - WE KNOW THAT HE FEELS GOOD!!!!
I liked the games, that the stream was free the entire season in reasonable quality (IM LOOKING AT YOU GSL) and the casters - even if you have to get used to them
Best finals ever. The crowd for the most part has been making this reminiscent of the old BW Korea days. Lots of excitement at even early game kills, this is great. :D
Some of you should honestly give NASL a break, I know GOM is a great service but recognize that this is a new event and to be so crucial of small things is sort of disgusting, especially because this is a huge gamble on the sponsor / event organizer's part to bring you e-sports in the WEST.
Show some support.
On July 11 2011 08:07 BryanSC wrote: What is the reason for the stream lagging during big battles? GSL, MLG, TSL, user streams, EG Masters' Cup, they all work fine except for this stream. Are they running Pentium 2's or what? Really disappointing, I have yet to see a complete big battle go on.
The lag could be due to, well I don't know, almost 80,000 viewers??? It's been fine for me and I am currently on a wireless P.O.S connection away from home.
Gretorp has massively improved since the start of NASL (he was just terrible then, now he's actually pretty good) and InControl has always been a good caster. They aren't as good as Tastosis (noone is), but they were the NASL casters and I understand that they want to cast the finals and respect that, although I still wanted more tastosis games (and just more games overall). Plus it would be great if they would actually split up tastosis (unless they have specifically said they didn't want to be split up it would be awesome to have one of them cast with day9 or even both of them).
I gotta give you guys credit though, the first day of the NASL finals was just an all around disaster but you've really improved on sound quality, and the lag I got when watching the playoffs was nonexistant during the finals, there are still some issues that I hope you will resolve in future tournaments that have already been listed but the last two days were very enjoyable and the finals are really great now. Good job.
On July 11 2011 08:06 stratman wrote: I really wanted tastosis to cast,but gretorp and incontrol are doing a really good job. I didn't watch much nasl since the beginning of the season, and they've really improved a lot.
I think they're doing a good job, but I feel it's kinda obvious that they haven't had much experience casting for a live audience.
I still think that if you're going to invite the biggest and most popular casters in the scene, and advertise them long before the event, you should have them cast the finals. You might say this is more fair for the casters, but for the fans it would be more fair to have Tastosis up there.
I would be more open for this idea if Incontrol & Gretorp were a popular duo on their own right, but since they've had lukewarm reception at best, it just seems like a senseless decision.
This is pushing to be the best series I've ever seen!
Amazing games, really amazing.
I also would like to add that Gretorp&Incontrol is doing a great job casting this. Even though I was disappointed at first figuring we would have the immortals do the casting, I have now changed my mind.
I notice this weird thing with the observer that really bothers me; everytime a drop or some kind of engagement is about to occur, it's common for the camera to pan away just as it begins, and then return afterwards.
I notice this weird thing with the observer that really bothers me; everytime a drop or some kind of engagement is about to occur, it's common for the camera to pan away just as it begins, and then return afterwards.
IncontroL and Gretorp have both come a LONG way in their casting abilities. I was pretty critical of both of them in the beginning weeks of the NASL but I'm glad that they are both here casting the finals now over Tastetosis.
Hey guys was it just me but is there anyone else yearning for tastetosis to cast the amazingly epic finials of nasl? I dont think incontrol and gretorp are on the same level as those casters.
On July 11 2011 08:35 kevman wrote: Hey guys was it just me but is there anyone else yearning for tastetosis to cast the amazingly epic finials of nasl? I dont think incontrol and gretorp are on the same level as those casters.
Just you, dudes are killing it and I'm not missing them. Sometimes I think they almost get a bit to nerdy/goofy(SOMETIMES) and I like that we are getting this combo just to change it up. I like that iNcontrol is a big sports guy so he is hyping and treating it like a big sporting event and using those analogies as well. I've enjoyed that. These guys got us to this point, they deserve to do the finals and are really doing a great job.
Gretorp and iNcontroL did a great job casting the finals. I was pleased by the excitement and knowledge they brought to the matches and believe it was their greatest performance.
On July 11 2011 08:56 Tomfour wrote: Don't ever let Anna Prosser do interviews again. For Christs sake, Artosis is in the building..... let him interview the champion please.
Agreed, why are people who know nothing about SC2 giving interviews ? , lol
I gotta say... NASL may not have had the best production value, but damn.. they brought epic games and epic players and that to me is what makes a truly great tournament.
Props to incontrol, gretorp, and everyone involved with NASL!
At least the Day 3 (most important day) went without problems that much. Hopefully NASL can fix the problems next season.
And yes, Fire that audio guy and get someone with at least some experience. You have so huge budget, you can't cut from these things or even from the tools used, mics and so on.
I didn't like the NASL much, from camerawork to general production to things like the way to stage is luminated. In my opinion dreamhack and MLG did a much better job in that regard. Camerawork looks really sloppy and amateuristic, the lights should be way better.
On July 11 2011 08:56 Tomfour wrote: Don't ever let Anna Prosser do interviews again. For Christs sake, Artosis is in the building..... let him interview the champion please.
Agreed, why are people who know nothing about SC2 giving interviews ? , lol
She did a good job. Nothing wrong at having non-experts do the interviews.
On July 11 2011 08:56 Tomfour wrote: Don't ever let Anna Prosser do interviews again. For Christs sake, Artosis is in the building..... let him interview the champion please.
Agreed, why are people who know nothing about SC2 giving interviews ? , lol
She did a good job. Nothing wrong at having non-experts do the interviews.
Except being able to form a decently on topic question about the game or strategies used. Artosis has great interview questions (GSL whenever he has the chance). No reason to not let him do it over someone who is GF of a caster.
I REALLY hope that the prize pool will be altered next season to award all of the top 16. These guys played their best for so long and get nothing for it... even GSL Code S guys get paid.
There are still a lot of changes that need to be made but if NASL continues to bring quality players in who produce quality games like this, they are in good shape.
On July 11 2011 09:13 thisisSSK wrote: I REALLY hope that the prize pool will be altered next season to award all of the top 16. These guys played their best for so long and get nothing for it... even GSL Code S guys get paid.
this. The pricepool is waaaayy to top heavy. You should get at least some money for making it to the final weekend imo.
On July 11 2011 09:13 thisisSSK wrote: I REALLY hope that the prize pool will be altered next season to award all of the top 16. These guys played their best for so long and get nothing for it... even GSL Code S guys get paid.
as far as i know they still get a little money, but not in those huge checks form. could you imagine 16 players there standing with 0.5 x 2 meter checks standing there?
I must say, even though NASL had alot of production problems, i NEVER EVER saw such great games in so many series, and never saw so much drama! I don't really know puma, but this finals made me cheer for him like i never were for anyone, in my opinion it's way best sc 2 finals i have ever seen, and usually i don't love non zerg series Great finish NASL, and Gretorp/Incontrol were awesome, I'm glad they casted finals!!!!! Bad season 2 is so far away
so i still have to say Tastosis/pricepool(leads to big players) + epic games saved this tourney from being complete bulls***. The thing is thats still enough cause even if u fuckup everything people will watch your tournament just to see those games.
but anyways i hope they can make a huge step forward for season 2. thank you NASL for the best finals weve seen in sc2 so far.
There have been several fantastic series durings the finals, which makes up for the problems with the production. I hope NASL learned its lessons and produces an awesome 2nd season, there is still so much potential.
Everything in NASLs control (sound, production, interview quality, etc) sucked. Everything out of NASLs control (games, crowd reaction, etc) were awesome.
Let us not lose sight of these facts as we make suggestions for improvement.
On July 11 2011 09:19 Ryuudou wrote: The ending performance was freaking amazing. That rap/singing combo was so awesome. Those lyrics made me laugh so hard.
and Gj to PuMa for winning it all.
Temp0 was great. Anna sang out of tune and "danced" awkwardly. Why would you end such a great final series with that?
On July 11 2011 09:18 jenzebubble wrote: Just so that we are clear:
Everything in NASLs control (sound, production, interview quality, etc) sucked. Everything out of NASLs control (games, crowd reaction, etc) were awesome.
Let us not lose sight of these facts as we make suggestions for improvement.
Agreed. And I would suggest Double elimination like HSC did. That was just drama heaven <3 Also, good for players for some comeback.
All the games were awesome. Let's just remember them only-
On July 11 2011 09:18 jenzebubble wrote: Just so that we are clear:
Everything in NASLs control (sound, production, interview quality, etc) sucked. Everything out of NASLs control (games, crowd reaction, etc) were awesome.
Let us not lose sight of these facts as we make suggestions for improvement.
Agree with this, NASL better pay some people that are not amateurs to organize their stuff for season 2.
I had some troubles with the stream lagging on the final day... Which is sad because the rest of the tournament, the quality had been really great. And of course, the sound was really horrible... Every other microphone someone picked up wasn't set up right, and volume levels took quite a while to get right.
However, for a first event, it was still quite good, and with all the troubles they've experience which they quickly fixed throughout the season, I can only assume that they'll have things working even better the second time around. I'll definitely be buying the pass for season two, $20 is nothing, and it's a lot of entertainment over three months.
Apart from major issues with sound issues during many points in the event, the rest seemed pretty sound. Looking forward to season 2 and a great show overall.
There is so many problems that I will only adress 2 of the major ones....( i wont include the tech stuff....cuz god i hope you know how bad it is, the sound is probably the worst thing really bad quailty)
- Too long breaks, Too long intros. The pacing of the show (its a show right?) is really bad due to this....no need to drone on and on it took you guys over 12 hours to finish of 8 games.....in GSL that takes about 2-4 hours....pacing
- More Info about the tournament in terms of scheduling, casters and easy access to brackets so ppl can plan and check out the games they wanna see....
-Everything production related (sound,lights, mics, camera etc)
-A good observer
Too lazy to type more and quite frankly youve had most of the major issues for weeks...it just follows you wherever you go.....wonder why? ......overall it was probably one of the worst sc2 tourneys ever to watch... I didnt even care about the games due these issues....and thats a first for me considering the players that where playing are really good....
On July 11 2011 09:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: so i still have to say Tastosis/pricepool(leads to big players) + epic games saved this tourney from being complete bulls***. The thing is thats still enough cause even if u fuckup everything people will watch your tournament just to see those games.
but still i hope they can make a huge step forward for season 2. thank you NASL for the best finals weve seen in sc2 so far.
They could have 33% of the prize money and all the big players would still come just look at MLG and all the others and used that other money to get more help in production.
On July 11 2011 09:24 FakeLife wrote: However, for a first event, it was still quite good, and with all the troubles they've experience which they quickly fixed throughout the season, I can only assume that they'll have things working even better the second time around. I'll definitely be buying the pass for season two, $20 is nothing, and it's a lot of entertainment over three months.
For a first event, assuming all the people involved had little to no experience with an event of this scope, I would say that they did an excellent job. That having been said, that is precisely where they screwed up. This should not have been the first event of this size that the majority of the people on their staff took part in. They needed a director/manager with experience. They needed experienced sound and lighting professionals. Yes, for a bunch of amateurs I'd say that they did awesome. Unfortunately, the is not the standard that they should and/or are being held to.
Interviews: For Ro16 and even Ro8 matches, it is fine to have Anna interview the players as she is pretty decent at asking questions that are good enough. For semi-finals/finals, I feel like there needs to someone with better knowledge of the game interviewing the players (Day9/Artosis are the best options), as the series become larger with Bo5's, Bo7's, and the games become much less one-sided and develop into very back 'n' forth nail-biting series with victors barely edging out over their opponents.
The sound was awful. I wish I could be more constructive with this point, but there were just an innumerable amount of mistakes with audio levels throughout the entire event. The first day I had to mess with my sound levels every time they were messed with behind the scenes. Several times my volume was at 100% capacity and it was still inaudible. I couldn't hear several answers to interviewer's questions, left/right speakers were imbalanced, and all-in-all it was very frustrating as a viewer.
The delays. These things happen, but when viewers are kept in the dark, you are wasting a lot of their time. This isn't as huge of a deal with the existance of VOD's, but it's never a good thing (albeit unavoidable at times). All I can say here is try better next time, you did a good job near the end by filling up time with random interviews and different camera perspectives.
Format: This one confuses me the most. 9 weeks of round-robin format and then single BO-3's for people traveling across the world means that for some, they come to play for 10-30 minutes and that is it. One thing that sticks out in my mind is Ret getting first seed, having to face the open bracket winner (who is almost guarenteed to be a very strong player, and ended up being so). Ret potentially missed out on a lot of money.
Despite all this, I still really enjoyed the event. The semi-finals/finals were some of the best games in starcraft 2 to date (rivaling the TSL3/some GSL finals). Gretorp and Incontrol really hit their stride at this event, coming out with amazing energy, inciteful analysis, and humorous/fun chemistry. Tastosis and Day9 were great as always.
I will likely be purchasing next season (if time permits), but please be better prepared for your next live event (as I'm sure you will be).
On July 11 2011 09:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: so i still have to say Tastosis/pricepool(leads to big players) + epic games saved this tourney from being complete bulls***. The thing is thats still enough cause even if u fuckup everything people will watch your tournament just to see those games.
but still i hope they can make a huge step forward for season 2. thank you NASL for the best finals weve seen in sc2 so far.
They could have 33% of the prize money and all the big players would still come just look at MLG and all the others and used that other money to get more help in production.
I dont think it comes down to money. More about nepotism / who they hire. They just seem to not do anything competent in general and make choices less about delivering the best product and more about giving money/attention/plugs to people they like.
I mean they flew in tastosis and have day9 guest, but barely use them. It seems like a lot of bad decisions and less about money. I mean yeah maybe if they spent double the money and hired competent people it would work out well, but they could have used the money they had on competent people and it would work out well anyway.
It seems more like a lack of motivation to actually deliver the highest quality event. Rather make sure people they know from gosucoaching or w.e. get the jobs.
I mean they basically tacked on a banner to the front of the "caster stage" and didnt even bother to make sure it didnt hang down at all.
I am an Audio Engineer and I live in San Francisco. I would be happy to do the sound next time if I had a place to stay and a stipend for food and what not. I am being honest, no troll, I am writing this from Wyoming were I am doing the recordings for the GTMF Orchestra.
I have a feeling they didn't have a sound guy and it was just some random person who thought it would be easy to run faders and auxiliary out-put's to a stream as well as live monitor's. I don't care enough to find a contact for NASL but if anyone reads this PM me and we can talk.
On July 11 2011 09:29 Muffinman53 wrote: When I enter the coupon code "NASLS2PRESALE", it says the coupon code is invalid. Am I missing something? Or are other people having this problem?
On July 11 2011 09:29 Muffinman53 wrote: When I enter the coupon code "NASLS2PRESALE", it says the coupon code is invalid. Am I missing something? Or are other people having this problem?
On July 11 2011 09:19 Ryuudou wrote: The ending performance was freaking amazing. That rap/singing combo was so awesome. Those lyrics made me laugh so hard.
and Gj to PuMa for winning it all.
Temp0 was great. Anna sang out of tune and "danced" awkwardly. Why would you end such a great final series with that?
that wasnt out of tune... But yeah just sort the audio out and your good imo. and the seeding for the open is a bit crazy.
On July 11 2011 09:29 Muffinman53 wrote: When I enter the coupon code "NASLS2PRESALE", it says the coupon code is invalid. Am I missing something? Or are other people having this problem?
On July 11 2011 09:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: so i still have to say Tastosis/pricepool(leads to big players) + epic games saved this tourney from being complete bulls***. The thing is thats still enough cause even if u fuckup everything people will watch your tournament just to see those games.
but still i hope they can make a huge step forward for season 2. thank you NASL for the best finals weve seen in sc2 so far.
They could have 33% of the prize money and all the big players would still come just look at MLG and all the others and used that other money to get more help in production.
Well, according to SirScoots the NASL will charge every player 500 dollars for playing the next season, and they still don't know the details. So they are trying to get in cash for production.
On July 11 2011 09:29 Muffinman53 wrote: When I enter the coupon code "NASLS2PRESALE", it says the coupon code is invalid. Am I missing something? Or are other people having this problem?
Dont use CAPS ?
They shouldn't type it in caps on the stream if they don't want me to use caps. But thanks, lowercase fixed it :D
On July 11 2011 09:19 Ryuudou wrote: The ending performance was freaking amazing. That rap/singing combo was so awesome. Those lyrics made me laugh so hard.
and Gj to PuMa for winning it all.
Temp0 was great. Anna sang out of tune and "danced" awkwardly. Why would you end such a great final series with that?
that wasnt out of tune... But yeah just sort the audio out and your good imo. and the seeding for the open is a bit crazy.
It might be time to get your hearing checked. She squawked through the entire song.
On July 11 2011 09:19 Ryuudou wrote: The ending performance was freaking amazing. That rap/singing combo was so awesome. Those lyrics made me laugh so hard.
and Gj to PuMa for winning it all.
Temp0 was great. Anna sang out of tune and "danced" awkwardly. Why would you end such a great final series with that?
that wasnt out of tune...
It wouldn't be an SC2 event without some sort of awkward ending. It always involves like a hot girl, some weird dude with a mic, a bunch of socially awkward gamers standing on stage not sure what to do, a few giant checks, and then just a dead stream. It is SC2 tradition.
Day 1 - abysmal as far as production goes (video, audio..., schedule, PR on the forums, etc)
Day 2 - improvements but still very bad compared to any major LAN
Day 3 - significant improvements in every department. Some awkward moments with the singing (can be a personal preference though). The sound, while a lot better then the previous days, was still "hit and miss" (i could not hear the final interview )
The casting was superb. I did not think much of Gretorp and InconTroll based on what i've seen in the regular season, but they have been absolutely fantastic in the finals. Now i am actually sad this combo will not continue to develop (Inc leaving)
I would consider this event as something a SC2 fan should watch. A subscription is not worth it though, particularly considering how the VODS are set up.
Congrats to NASL and i hope to see major improvements for the coming season.
EDIT: The stream stability was perfect. A big plus IMO.
On July 11 2011 09:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: so i still have to say Tastosis/pricepool(leads to big players) + epic games saved this tourney from being complete bulls***. The thing is thats still enough cause even if u fuckup everything people will watch your tournament just to see those games.
but still i hope they can make a huge step forward for season 2. thank you NASL for the best finals weve seen in sc2 so far.
They could have 33% of the prize money and all the big players would still come just look at MLG and all the others and used that other money to get more help in production.
As you already mentioned, there are other tournaments that are paying the players BARE MINIMUM in order to make the viewing experience better, let NASL grow their production slowly and have a prize pool worth doing this full-time for, obviously there are problems to be fixed but there is a range to choose from now, if everyone was just cutting their prize pools to pay for production it would be REALLY bad for the players.
On July 11 2011 09:19 Ryuudou wrote: The ending performance was freaking amazing. That rap/singing combo was so awesome. Those lyrics made me laugh so hard.
and Gj to PuMa for winning it all.
Temp0 was great. Anna sang out of tune and "danced" awkwardly. Why would you end such a great final series with that?
that wasnt out of tune... But yeah just sort the audio out and your good imo. and the seeding for the open is a bit crazy.
It might be time to get your hearing checked. She squawked through the entire song.
The song was fine, man. You clearly are trying to find every little thing to complain about you can because you are sour about it. And you're exaggerating the things you do complain about (claiming that "everything" that was in NASL's control "sucked"). I understand that it's the internet and you're anonymous and all, but you should try to be a little more level-headed.
Great players, great games, great casters. Truly some of the best matches of the year so far.
And both Gretorp and InControl have improved a lot as casters -- casting 100-plus games a week will do that!
Need to make significant improvements every other aspect, from organization, scheduling, tournament format, communication, marketing, design and production.
Use the casters you fly in from korea more. inc, and gre are not as fun to watch as taste, and artosis.
The sound was horrible as fuck. How is it possible to have that shitty of quality control with the sound? fire anyone who had anything to do with the sound.
Less horrible awkward fucking singing. Get better interviewers. I mean I like to look at pretty girls and all, but im watching this to nerd out, and watch some fucking video games. Let artosis do the interviews.
Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
Even the caster area is terrible, with an obviously tacked on 30 dollar banner. They didn't even bother tacking it on besides at the corners so the top part droops down a bit. It's absolutely terrible and to "forgive" them is silly.
A vinyl banner, with grommets and a finished edge costs between $8 to $10 dollars a square foot. That banner is in the $200 dollar range. The person that ordered it obviously didn't know what they were doing, because as you mentioned, they had no hooks or points to fasten it from and it was just pinned or nailed to the desk. They didn't use the grommets at all.
A vinyl banner, with grommets and a finished edge costs between $8 to $10 dollars a square foot. That banner is in the $200 dollar range. The person that ordered it obviously didn't know what they were doing, because as you mentioned, they had no hooks or points to fasten it from and it was just pinned or nailed to the desk. They didn't use the grommets at all.
A vinyl banner, with grommets and a finished edge costs between $8 to $10 dollars a square foot. That banner is in the $200 dollar range. The person that ordered it obviously didn't know what they were doing, because as you mentioned, they had no hooks or points to fasten it from and it was just pinned or nailed to the desk. They didn't use the grommets at all.
I believe, while criticism is all right, that good things should also be posted there, not just what we didn`t like or would like to be improved. Its more objective this way and also, it adds insights on what people like and appreciate, not just what they dislike. People seem to love pointing out the mistakes whenever they can but I think its not fair to do just that.
I will share my list of what I liked:
1. Casting.I have never seen Gretorp and Incontrol commentate before but I really enjoyed it. They both proved to posses a deep understanding of the game and the ability to translate this understanding in a reasonable and transparent way, overally seemed like intelligent guys and up to task, generally always had something sensible or interesting to say, they also had, in my opinion, a very good sense of humour. Also, I think they improved quite a lot over these 9 weeks. Commentary in finals games between MC and Puma was awesome imo. Overall, I really enjoyed their casting, highly entertaining.
Tastosis, when they appeared for ro16, gave a really good piece of commentary as well.
2. Some people didn`t like the 9 weeks long format. There were some issues with the format, with ro16 especially, with the fairness of the qualification/advancement process also. Nonetheless, I think a really long qualification process is a good idea, I even think it should be long. Why ? Because when you see those 2 guys in the finals - you know what they had to manage to do to get there. When I watch OSL/MSL I get really hyped because these tourneys have stories. They are meaningful. How do you want to have such stories when you have a new champion every 2-3 months or so, like in GSL ?
3. Schedule (for group stage). Some people didn`t like the format of bo3`s a day and I can understand why but personally, I didn`t mind it at all. This gave the viewer a bit more freedom - for example, if I didn`t want to watch a particular match up or players, I could skip a bo3 and it was fine because there were 5 of them. If there were less, that would be far less viable. Also, because it took more time, some people could watch at least a part of it, instead of nothing.
4. I think the intro/teaser, while not the best in the universe, was really decent.
5. There were many good games. Really good games. There also were bad games, really bad games but there also were awesome games.
6. The setting for final games (3rd place & for championship) and the games themselves were really awesome, in large part due to crowd. The atmosphere was really great.
Now, there certainly are some things that I didn`t like (schedule for ro16 with 1 hour downtime comes to mind) but I think there certainly is a lot to appreciate about NASL.
Amazing final games but I really do hope you guys look at this entire run like sundance did for MLG dallas. The finals were amazing because of sen vs MC, because of MC vs PUMA. We had a natural and compelling storyline arise from all of this. Puma seemed to come out of no where and upset the best player in the world in a magnificent 7 game slug fest. But there's a lot to improve upon. I won't go into the other backend production stuff because others have touched on this already. One specific thing about production is the main stage. It was literally a stage that was set up. There was no music, no lights, no fireworks no nothing really.
It doesn't have to be super fancy but controlling the energy of the crowd and building momentum and keeping it is critical in a live event. The audience wasn't really into it until the finals. When MC's DT was in PUMA's mineral line the audience was shouting, "four! five! six!" actually transfixed on the game. They were really IN it at that point. And they really should've been into it like that starting at the round of 16. But they weren't because of the lackluster live production and poor pacing between games and sets. People go to live sporting events for the atmosphere and environment. At the end of the day it's up to the players of course, but you won't always have a grand finals like THAT. Half of it comes from production and good casters (Which you did have).
Gretorp for some reason was vastly superior live in front of tons of real people and 80k people online than he ever was during the regular NASL season. Really odd.
As long as they sit down and actually work out the bevy of issues they had the past few months im definitely looking forward to season 2.
It's hard to give any suggestions, because unlike MLG, NASL doesn't seem to actually be taking any of the issues seriously. The casters/crew/organizers seem to be taking the stance "it's good enough stop whining".
The HUGE difference between these events is: MLG is a business venture where its owners/producers take great care to improve the quality of their service, to please their customers (and thus increase revenue). NASL - from everything even Incontrol himself posted earlier - seems to be some kind of friends' organization, where everybody is rubbing each others' backs ...
Girlfriends get to do interviews (when there are Masters level very knowledgeable female SC2 players who do casting/interviewing for small tournaments, if they wanted more girls on the stage!!), Incontrol and gretorp get to cast over more popular casters. I don't know who did the lights/stage setup/camera work/audio, but I could bet it was somebody's brother/friend/grandmother, not a hired experienced PROFESSIONAL.
On July 11 2011 10:20 425kid wrote: MC and Puma saved this final. NASL has a lot of work to do for next season. gogogo
This is how I feel. They were very lucky that Puma and MC decided to play one of the best Bo7 finals in SC2 history. The whole event was plagued by issues both little and big. I can only hope that they really learn from it and improve for the 2nd season.
On July 11 2011 10:22 DannyJ wrote: Gretorp for some reason was vastly superior live in front of tons of real people and 80k people online than he ever was during the regular NASL season. Really odd.
As long as they sit down and actually work out the bevy of issues they had the past few months im definitely looking forward to season 2.
Gretorp and Incontrol were awesome in the finals.I mean amazing games amazing crowd just pure awesomeness. They got sucked into something amazing and raise their standard to match the occasion. That's what happens man. You either fall down or you rise and boy did they rise.
For all the shit NASL did wrong. That final was a spectacle of pure awesomeness. Big probs to Gretorp and Incontrol for not being overwhelmed.
A vinyl banner, with grommets and a finished edge costs between $8 to $10 dollars a square foot. That banner is in the $200 dollar range. The person that ordered it obviously didn't know what they were doing, because as you mentioned, they had no hooks or points to fasten it from and it was just pinned or nailed to the desk. They didn't use the grommets at all.
Don't ask me how I know these things.
How do you know this?!?!?
I've been working as a Graphic Designer for a little more than ten years, and a design manager for the past year. I have some experience managing and design web and multimedia projects, but most of it related to exhibits and graphics for themed environments, small-format print work, illustration etc.
So I know quite a bit about large-format graphics, and how much it cost to make the most random things.
They could have just clad and painted the front of the desks with black plywood so they could mount the banner flush against it. The overbuilt white frames on all the cabinetry was a goofy, random decision made by someone that didn't think through the design and function of the desks before construction. I wouldn't be surprised if those desks were heavy as hell.
I can think of probably a dozen ways they could have done a better job with less money and less time.
Incontrol and Gretorp delivered amazing casting that night, fully to the level of the games and the crowd's excitement. Witty, passionate, and on top of everything. Great work by both of them, after a very long season worth of work as well. Thank you guys, you gave all for it.
On July 11 2011 09:16 CEPEHDREI wrote: so i still have to say Tastosis/pricepool(leads to big players) + epic games saved this tourney from being complete bulls***. The thing is thats still enough cause even if u fuckup everything people will watch your tournament just to see those games.
but still i hope they can make a huge step forward for season 2. thank you NASL for the best finals weve seen in sc2 so far.
They could have 33% of the prize money and all the big players would still come just look at MLG and all the others and used that other money to get more help in production.
Well, according to SirScoots the NASL will charge every player 500 dollars for playing the next season, and they still don't know the details. So they are trying to get in cash for production.
if they charge $500 dollars why would anyone come to that? they might aswell set it up themselves and play between them for the pot because each player giving 500 is half the prize pool. add in flight costs and its just not worth it.
if its a deposit for less no shows and stuff then thats fine
I thought the event was great and resulted in some great matches, commentated on by a great crew. My only complaints would be that the website didn't provide enough information about the event, and the matches started early on Sun causing people (including me and my friends) to miss almost all of the 3rd place series and ultimately decide to just watch from home. Running late can be annoying because of waiting around, but starting early will cause people to miss matches, which I think is much worse.
On July 11 2011 09:52 ZergMaestro wrote: No fluff.
Use the casters you fly in from korea more. inc, and gre are not as fun to watch as taste, and artosis.
The sound was horrible as fuck. How is it possible to have that shitty of quality control with the sound? fire anyone who had anything to do with the sound.
Less horrible awkward fucking singing. Get better interviewers. I mean I like to look at pretty girls and all, but im watching this to nerd out, and watch some fucking video games. Let artosis do the interviews.
QUALITY CONTROL. QUALITY CONTROL.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
Its just your ego loving to criticise and point out mistakes.
Its not easy to produce an event like this. Its not hard either. Its insanely fucking hard. You speak like an incensed child raging at an adult for not giving him exactly what he wants and how he wants it, unable to understand that an adult is human as well.
On July 11 2011 10:33 XaI)CyRiC wrote: I thought the event was great and resulted in some great matches, commentated on by a great crew. My only complaints would be that the website didn't provide enough information about the event, and the matches started early on Sun causing people (including me and my friends) to miss almost all of the 3rd place series and ultimately decide to just watch from home. Running late can be annoying because of waiting around, but starting early will cause people to miss matches, which I think is much worse.
I think they changed the times on sunday since they removed a lot of the Fluff allowing guys in European time zones to actually watch the finals. It was a good move they just should have announced the changes. The fact that they started to be flexible with their schedule was a massive plus for me and most Europeans.
Many people were asking them to remove some of the fluff. On Sunday they did that and it was awesome
I gotta give NASL a hand for really stepping up their production quality and answering all of the fans' concerns over the course of the tournament. Let's be real...Day 1 was atrocious! Unbearable delays, terrible technical problems both live and on the stream, and lackluster games (partially their fault...I'm not a fan of the set map pool being the same for EVERY match. People were definitely sick of Xel'Caverns and Crossfire by the third match). Day 2 almost all the problems had been addressed and Day 3 everything seemed to run very smoothly!
Note: I was there live for Day 1 and Day 2...watched the stream for Day 3.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
There's a lot to like about the NASL, and I'll continue to support it. Already, the Season 2 roster is absolutely bonkers.
But will I support it for $25, as I did with Season 1? Uggggghhhhh .... tough call. And it's not simply a matter of spotty and inconsistent production. There just way more games than I'm capable of watching.
If they offered a discount for the Season 1 subscribers that "dug deep" and lived through their growing pains, than I'd probably resubscribe. If it's still $25, I'm just going to save up and try to catch as many games as I can live.
On July 11 2011 09:55 Whitewing wrote: Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
I like the open bracket idea. It gives relatively unknown or unpopular players a chance to show their skill. If Puma would have applied via applications, I don't think he would have had even been considered to be put in the regular pool.
And come on, it wasn't that bad for the regular players (except for the Koreans who had to wake up at absurd times). They didn't have to play every day, 8 hours a day, for 9 weeks as some people are making it sound. They played around once a week- in the comfort of their own home- in their underwear if they chose to.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
There's a lot to like about the NASL, and I'll continue to support it. Already, the Season 2 roster is absolutely bonkers.
But will I support it for $25, as I did with Season 1? Uggggghhhhh .... tough call. And it's not simply a matter of spotty and inconsistent production. There just way more games than I'm capable of watching.
If they offered a discount for the Season 1 subscribers that "dug deep" and lived through their growing pains, than I'd probably resubscribe. If it's still $25, I'm just going to save up and try to catch as many games as I can live.
Yeah, to me 25 dollars isn't worth it. I'm willing to occasionally pay for it for GSL, but only so that I can catch vods and not stay up all night. Since NASL is during the day I can usually just watch the matches that I want to live.
On July 11 2011 09:55 Whitewing wrote: Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
I like the open bracket idea. It gives relatively unknown or unpopular players a chance to show their skill. If Puma would have applied via applications, I don't think he would have had even been considered to be put in the regular pool.
And come on, it wasn't that bad for the regular players (except for the Koreans who had to wake up at absurd times). They didn't have to play every day, 8 hours a day, for 9 weeks as some people are making it sound. They played around once a week- in the comfort of their own home- in their underwear if they chose to.
Agreed, especially since when the NASL started Puma was an unknown, and now so many other players have fell and others have risen- DRG wasn't big when NASL started, for example, and now MVP hasn't shown results in the longest time.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
There's a lot to like about the NASL, and I'll continue to support it. Already, the Season 2 roster is absolutely bonkers.
But will I support it for $25, as I did with Season 1? Uggggghhhhh .... tough call. And it's not simply a matter of spotty and inconsistent production. There just way more games than I'm capable of watching.
If they offered a discount for the Season 1 subscribers that "dug deep" and lived through their growing pains, than I'd probably resubscribe. If it's still $25, I'm just going to save up and try to catch as many games as I can live.
Yeah, to me 25 dollars isn't worth it. I'm willing to occasionally pay for it for GSL, but only so that I can catch vods and not stay up all night. Since NASL is during the day I can usually just watch the matches that I want to live.
On July 11 2011 09:55 Whitewing wrote: Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
I like the open bracket idea. It gives relatively unknown or unpopular players a chance to show their skill. If Puma would have applied via applications, I don't think he would have had even been considered to be put in the regular pool.
And come on, it wasn't that bad for the regular players (except for the Koreans who had to wake up at absurd times). They didn't have to play every day, 8 hours a day, for 9 weeks as some people are making it sound. They played around once a week- in the comfort of their own home- in their underwear if they chose to.
Agreed, especially since when the NASL started Puma was an unknown, and now so many other players have fell and others have risen- DRG wasn't big when NASL started, for example, and now MVP hasn't shown results in the longest time.
If the NASL was all a live event like the GSL, I'd happily pay up the $25. As it stands I can't bring myself to pay that amount of money for a mostly online tournament.
On July 11 2011 09:52 ZergMaestro wrote: No fluff.
Use the casters you fly in from korea more. inc, and gre are not as fun to watch as taste, and artosis.
The sound was horrible as fuck. How is it possible to have that shitty of quality control with the sound? fire anyone who had anything to do with the sound.
Less horrible awkward fucking singing. Get better interviewers. I mean I like to look at pretty girls and all, but im watching this to nerd out, and watch some fucking video games. Let artosis do the interviews.
QUALITY CONTROL. QUALITY CONTROL.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
Its just your ego loving to criticise and point out mistakes.
Its not easy to produce an event like this. Its not hard either. Its insanely fucking hard. You speak like an incensed child raging at an adult for not giving him exactly what he wants and how he wants it, unable to understand that an adult is human as well.
QFT
I will gladly be paying for a season 2 HD pass. Much better bang for the buck than GSL.
I've really liked NASL. Considering the limited resources they've had at their disposal, it's been a great effort to get it to where it is.
One thing I'd suggest is using an industrial designer (if possible) for the offline event. It looks a bit drab and dull on the stream when you see the stage and the boothes. There's definitely scope to glam it up a bit!
Finals made up for alot of the issues, but they still can't be overlooked. Also the after game interviews were awful all event long, the puma interview after the finals was just urg. Did enjoy inc and gretorp casting the finals though Day9 and tastosis seemed highley underused and tbh it was probably a waste of money to even bring them. Easy money for them though i guess :d
On July 11 2011 09:55 Whitewing wrote: Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
I like the open bracket idea. It gives relatively unknown or unpopular players a chance to show their skill. If Puma would have applied via applications, I don't think he would have had even been considered to be put in the regular pool.
And come on, it wasn't that bad for the regular players (except for the Koreans who had to wake up at absurd times). They didn't have to play every day, 8 hours a day, for 9 weeks as some people are making it sound. They played around once a week- in the comfort of their own home- in their underwear if they chose to.
It's a league. There should be a good reason to participate in league play. There is less of a reason if someone can conceivably (and did!) show up to one open bracket tournament, win that, then win the whole 50 grand. It makes the 9 weeks of games less meaningful and significant, and thus detracts from the value of the entire event.
On July 11 2011 09:55 Whitewing wrote: Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
I like the open bracket idea. It gives relatively unknown or unpopular players a chance to show their skill. If Puma would have applied via applications, I don't think he would have had even been considered to be put in the regular pool.
And come on, it wasn't that bad for the regular players (except for the Koreans who had to wake up at absurd times). They didn't have to play every day, 8 hours a day, for 9 weeks as some people are making it sound. They played around once a week- in the comfort of their own home- in their underwear if they chose to.
It's a league. There should be a good reason to participate in league play. There is less of a reason if someone can conceivably (and did!) show up to one open bracket tournament, win that, then win the whole 50 grand. It makes the 9 weeks of games less meaningful and significant, and thus detracts from the value of the entire event.
But your chances at making the finals are much greater by playing in the 9 week season rather than the open tournament. You are able to drop games in the regular season, but if you do in the open tournament you are done. Darkforce and HasuObs both went 5-4 in the regular season, but still made the finals. Puma went like 8-0 in the open bracket and faced multiple Korean pro's on the way.
The good reason to participate in league play is that you have a better chance at making the finals.
Delays/schedule First of all i want to say i watched almost every game this weekend. Even if i had to stay awake until 7 or 8 o clock in the morning. But as a BW fan in europe im very used to wake up/stay awake to watch SC. The delays were a bit annoying but in the end it was acceptable. The only thing that should be handled better is the information. Get someone on the stream/stage and tell the people what is happening and im totally OK with delays. The long pauses inbetween the games werent the greatest thing too, but i was sitting on my couch with chips alcohol and weed. When i had to wait for the next game i just watched a episode of futurama or something so waiting was no big problem.
Technical issues This is my biggest criticism. I understand such an event is hard to organise and there is a lot of technical stuff that can go wrong. But if you organise such a big event that so many people are going to watch you absolutely need to test your setup in advance. And with that i mean long enough to be able to fix your technical issues before the event starts. The sound issues could have been solved before but they werent i dont know why. This is really unacceptable for the people who have paid to watch this (i didnt so im not really pissed but i understand if those who paied are).
Commentators I cant understand those people who critisize the commentators with sentences as: "OMG i wanted Tastosis to cast this match and now INC/gretorp ruin this game for me" This is fucking ridiculous and you people are just idiots im sorry i have to say this in such a insulting way but it has to be said. Gretorp and especially Incontrol are great casters. Definitely among the best english casters that exist. They casted the whole season and did a great job, they were a reason why i prefered to watch NASL instead of other daily tournaments. Yes i like Tastosis more too but it would be very bad for esports if they would cast every tournament. If you dont like the casters then turn the volume down and listen to kpop or porn sounds or whatever you like most while watching SC. If you need Tastosis to enjoy the games you are not a true SC fan period. Many people here were watching BW with Korean casters, although we didnt understand one single word they were saying, for years and no one had problems with it, think about that.
Format I like the format please dont cange it, atleast not to double elimination. Maybe im alone with this opinion but i dont like DE at all and i dont understand why its so wide spread in the gaming community while no other sport (i watch) uses it. Yes its annoying if your favourite player gets knocked out in the first round (i like ret too), but thats the way it is. Hes a professional and will get over it so should you.
Games The games were amazing. I have nothing more to say about it.
Stage decor There were people saying that the stage looked "amateurish". And they were right. NASL finals was definitely not at the level of Korean Air OSL. But in the end id didnt need to be. So many people talk about "professionalism" here and how its so important for esports but thats noly a secondary problem as i see it. I would watch this finals if the players if they were played in incontrols apartment (pun intended) as long as the stream and sound quality is good its professional enough for me. Im not saying it wouldnt be nice if there was a better presentation/ decor but thats not the reason why i watch such events.
killing esports This is really getting an meme here on TL. as soon as a little detail is not working some people are crying: "this is killing esports". WTF? as long as we, the audience, are loving the game and are willing to watch it esports wont be killed. Its not the fancy stage lights or the pop stars singing before the event that make esports big. but the great games and people who are willing to watch them. If a event fails it kills itself and makes room for others. As long as the audience wants to watch esports there will be esports. The fact that so many people care about esports and dont want it to die is proof that nothing is going to kill it.
conclusion NASL was a great tournament with some problems. But im willing to forgive everything that went wrong as long as the organizers try to do it better the next time. And i dont even need big apology letters or free HD stream offers or such. Just learn from your mistakes and fix the problems you had, especially the sound issues (really this is the only thing that really bothered me)
Id like to add that im a bit drunk and that my post probably isnt of very high quality. But i spent an hour or so to write it now and couldnt wait to get sober to say some things. so grammar nazis please dont kill me.
Thank you NASL and everyone involved you made my day / weekend i had so much fun, see you next season.
Puma fighting you are a beast!!!! I love TL, greetz im off
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
This seems like common sense to me...
Where do u think NASL get their income from? The players or the viewers?
On July 11 2011 11:10 RowdierBob wrote: I've really liked NASL. Considering the limited resources they've had at their disposal, it's been a great effort to get it to where it is.
One thing I'd suggest is using an industrial designer (if possible) for the offline event. It looks a bit drab and dull on the stream when you see the stage and the boothes. There's definitely scope to glam it up a bit!
"Limited resources"
Looking at the prizepool they werent that limited.
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
This seems like common sense to me...
Where do u think NASL get their income from? The players or the viewers?
The viewers watch BECAUSE of the players that are in it.
I guarantee if you and me were in it in place of MC and select a lot less people would be watching
Still havent watched the sunday matches because the VOD system is really bad. Which is kinda ironic since for that $25 you are basically paying for the VOD because the live stream is free to watch :-/
So I guess that's the last $25 NASL get from me unless they greatly improved the VOD delivery
On July 11 2011 09:52 ZergMaestro wrote: No fluff.
Use the casters you fly in from korea more. inc, and gre are not as fun to watch as taste, and artosis.
The sound was horrible as fuck. How is it possible to have that shitty of quality control with the sound? fire anyone who had anything to do with the sound.
Less horrible awkward fucking singing. Get better interviewers. I mean I like to look at pretty girls and all, but im watching this to nerd out, and watch some fucking video games. Let artosis do the interviews.
QUALITY CONTROL. QUALITY CONTROL.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
Its just your ego loving to criticise and point out mistakes.
Its not easy to produce an event like this. Its not hard either. Its insanely fucking hard. You speak like an incensed child raging at an adult for not giving him exactly what he wants and how he wants it, unable to understand that an adult is human as well.
QFT
I will gladly be paying for a season 2 HD pass. Much better bang for the buck than GSL.
Plz explain how. and no. player and matches don't count since that is something no event can do anything about. How is NASL better then GSL?
On July 11 2011 09:52 ZergMaestro wrote: No fluff.
Use the casters you fly in from korea more. inc, and gre are not as fun to watch as taste, and artosis.
The sound was horrible as fuck. How is it possible to have that shitty of quality control with the sound? fire anyone who had anything to do with the sound.
Less horrible awkward fucking singing. Get better interviewers. I mean I like to look at pretty girls and all, but im watching this to nerd out, and watch some fucking video games. Let artosis do the interviews.
QUALITY CONTROL. QUALITY CONTROL.
This is an example of a callous and one-dimensional evaluation. Yes, there were issues, it wasn`t perfect, maybe far from it but it wasn`t terrible either.
Its just your ego loving to criticise and point out mistakes.
Its not easy to produce an event like this. Its not hard either. Its insanely fucking hard. You speak like an incensed child raging at an adult for not giving him exactly what he wants and how he wants it, unable to understand that an adult is human as well.
QFT
I will gladly be paying for a season 2 HD pass. Much better bang for the buck than GSL.
Plz explain how. and no. player and matches don't count since that is something no event can do anything about. How is NASL better then GSL?
NASL is based in America, the fans here, you hear the Korean's say all the time, is a lot more fun and expressive then korean fans.
On July 11 2011 11:56 sandyph wrote: Still havent watched the sunday matches because the VOD system is really bad. Which is kinda ironic since for that $25 you are basically paying for the VOD because the live stream is free to watch :-/
So I guess that's the last $25 NASL get from me unless they greatly improved the VOD delivery
LOL, I honestly almost paid so I could watch the Finals VODs, but if the VOD player is bad... I can definitely live without it.
Beyond the same old suggestions that are being repeated, I have the following to say:
NASL needs casters that appeal to a wide audience and that work less with starcraft 2 fans only and say things that appeal to a larger audience. Tasteless and Artosis do this very well, though they have much more experience in this regard. I found that while watching previous NASL casts before the finals that the only time I really wanted to watch was when gretrop and incontrol weren't casting. Also saying certain things as a caster is very unprofessional, but I won't go into detail.
The timing of the NASL and it's planning was.. well... retarded. Don't adjust the schedule if you post it beforehand. Stick to the schedule.
Please stick to using interviewers that know the game, don't put sex appeal into this.
There were way to many pauses both during casts and outside of the games.
I would gladly purchase the next season if I see good changes being made for the NASL, and consequently the future of e-sports.
I see a lot of hate going on for the people who dislike incontrol and gretorp, and those who dislike the disliking people. Everyone needs to take a step back and look at this from the big picture, we want e-sports to grow, which means we need casters to either respect certain necessary requirements, or cease until they can.
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
I know this has been stated many times but this is to show how many people disagreed w/ NASL's decision on who casted the finals.
I understand why incontrol and gretorp casted the finals. They casted during almost all of NASL's season. They worked hard and deserved it. However, it doesn't matter that they deserved it. When it comes to an event like this, it matters what the community wants and the majority of them preferred tastosis. NASL needs to listen to the community and give the community what they want.
I'm not saying incontrol or gretorp did a bad job. I like them as casters and players. However, they are not better than tastosis or day9 (most people agree). Majority of the community wanted tastosis to cast the finals so NASL should have gave the casting to tastosis.
On July 11 2011 11:10 RowdierBob wrote: I've really liked NASL. Considering the limited resources they've had at their disposal, it's been a great effort to get it to where it is.
One thing I'd suggest is using an industrial designer (if possible) for the offline event. It looks a bit drab and dull on the stream when you see the stage and the boothes. There's definitely scope to glam it up a bit!
I actually attended the finals (HOLY SHIT PICTURES W/ BOXER!@@!#@!#!@), and the room for the games, while a little bit bland, fullfilled its purpose quite well. Sure it isnt as glamorous as GSL, but it gets the job just fine, and you dont really notice it too much while your there, your just not paying attention to it
But then again, imo, things are beatiful if it does its job correctly and well. /shrug
And since i was at the live event, i had absolutely no problems with the stream, and it was AWESOME! Awesome job to NASL for setting up a great live event!
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
This seems like common sense to me...
Isnt an MLG 10K? People come for that...
It's 5 k for first, the Koreans certainly didn't come prior to the exchange program and probably won't come unless they're one of the 4 being seeded. Likewise several top Europeans don't make the trip unless there here for other stuff.
For example, Sen rarely goes. I think he went to one(?) last year but he's here for the next because he was also here for NASL. White-ra came for one but can't justify coming out for every one. Morrow came for the last one but has publicly stated he wont be back for the next because of having to play through the open bracket.
Liquid usually sends as many players as they can to each, but liquid is liquid, not every team can get their players into a korean pro-house either.
Regardless of if they would come, they shouldn't but they don't have a choice, the number of tournaments despite exploding in recent times are still of the production first, prize pool later philosophy and so the players even if they win barely make more then the plane ticket in winnings.
On July 11 2011 12:26 Nighthawks28 wrote: I know this has been stated many times but this is to show how many people disagreed w/ NASL's decision on who casted the finals.
I understand why incontrol and gretorp casted the finals. They casted during almost all of NASL's season. They worked hard and deserved it. However, it doesn't matter that they deserved it. When it comes to an event like this, it matters what the community wants and the majority of them preferred tastosis. NASL needs to listen to the community and give the community what they want.
I'm not saying incontrol or gretorp did a bad job. I like them as casters and players. However, they are not better than tastosis or day9 (most people agree). Majority of the community wanted tastosis to cast the finals so NASL should have gave the casting to tastosis.
I can def agree with this
I have no problems with incontrol an gretorp but for the finals i really wanted the casting archons or at least day9 sigh oh well maybe next time
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
Personally, I like the current tournament format as is. I think NASL should ask for feedback from all players that participated in season one online. Maybe poll the players and ask if doing RO16 Bo5 & RO8 Bo5 would be an improvement. I do not like double elimination because it makes the event longer. NASL was barely able to fit the current format into 3 LONG days of content. Have a 2ND group stage is just bland. We have watched 8-9 weeks of group stage already, no need to extend that. If it were me I would do it this way. Friday- RO16 Saturday RO8 R04, entertainment to follow Sunday 3rd place, grand final, entertainment to follow
Better lighting on the commentators would go a long way. I could match the results you're getting in your studio in my living room. Whenever you flash to commentators, it looks bad. The production quality just isn't there. Improving that lighting will make a huge difference.
On July 11 2011 10:59 eqez wrote: Next time lower the prize pool and hire a production team that can do a nice stage setup with nice booths and good video and audio production.
I really dont care how much the prize pool is i want a tournament that is fun to watch. Like HSC
I am pretty sure that the people actually competing in this don't agree with you.
Some of the top players probably wouldn't fly over to compete if the prize pool wasn't as high as it is.
This seems like common sense to me...
Isnt an MLG 10K? People come for that...
I think a prize pool of $50K would be sufficient, with this breakdown: 1st $20k 2nd $10k 3rd $5k 4th $3k 5-8 $2k 9-16 $1k
If they decided to keep the $100K prize pool, double all the numbers above. The prize pools need to be spread out a bit more I think.
I definitely would NOT do the $200K they have planned for season 3 I think? I remember iNc saying that there was $400K total.
They need to cut the corner with the downtime and put more games on the first and second day IMO. And please be correct with your schedule, 4 pm is 4 pm, not 2:30 pm.
The caster debate will go on and on forever since in most cases it seems to come down to preference. While there are casters that could flat out be considered bad, I don't think Gretorp and InControl are two of them.
Just to say, I think they did a wonderful job with the final series. I hadn't watched much of them through the actual season (I didn't watch much of the actual season at all actually due to time) but they seemed genuinely excited and fairly informative. I couldn't really understand why so many fans were slamming them so hard. Is it just because they aren't Tastosis?
Glad I didn't pay for it, even though I was pretty busy and missed some games I wanted to see live... looks like some serious growing pains for NASL. Each issue on its own is not such a big deal, but when you combine a lot of them together and it seriously affects the overall experience.
Random notes: 1. Good job of attracting players to attend 2. Gretorp/Incontrol aren't a very good casting combo, with the former being borderline un-listenable, pair Incontrol with someone else 3. I would be annoyed if I had paid 4. interviews weren't very good (even taking the audio level problems into account)
The best part: unsurprisingly, the games (at least the ones I was able to catch)
I'm buying my ticket for NASL 2 but I really hope for some of the following:
Better finals format. (The BO3s and player intros were annoying, everything else including Lindsey were amazing!) Less kinks (especially sound quality) as well.
The open bracket player should NOT be seeded as 16th, I could see an argument being made for them seeded as 1st or 2nd, or even 8th, but definitely not 16th. The open bracket winner is ALWAYS going to be an absolute beast.
As for the season itself, I wish the players got a bit more money for playing all those many months, that's a lot of time commitment. Other than that I really enjoyed the format for the most part, although some games were lackluster due to the length of the season, but that's fine I think and can't be helped.
Edit:
And yeah, I love incontrol and gretorp but not as casters, they just practically never seemed to get excited. I'm not saying every game needs to be shouting into the microphone, but on occasion it's great to see casters really excited. Keeping around gretorp is fine, but I'm looking forward to a replacement for incontrol for sure.
On July 11 2011 10:26 Stanlot wrote: As cool as it is that Puma won his first major tournament today, I hope NASL considers removing the open tournament slot in the grand finals bracket of the coming seasons. If I'm not mistaken, the competitors of season 2 and on earn their spots through a qualifier, right? Then there should be no reason for anyone to complain about anyone making it to the finals because they'll have played through the entire league and earned their place. As skilled as Puma is, it feels a bit wrong in my heart that someone who didn't dedicate 9 weeks of group play to the tournament come in and swept the whole thing.
Again, I'm not saying Puma isn't skilled or that he didn't earn his place in the finals. He beat a whole host of amazing players in the open tournament and wiped out even bigger names in the grand finals to win it all. I'm just saying that perhaps there shouldn't be a slot for anyone to just play one day's worth of games to get in while the rest of the players had to play over a course of 9 or so weeks and ungodly hours.
I agree. They have had an open tournament for some of the invites for season 2. Why the hell do they have another open to put a person in the finals. The world cup would not have a second round of qualifiers to put someone in the playoffs after group stage.
On Day 1 of the finals, have a 1/2 hr selection show. The format: Top 1-8 from the league get seeded as they normally would in a 16-player bracket. Bottom 9-15 + Open Bracket Player are put into a selection pool. Seed 1 gets to pick his opponent from the pool. Seed 2 gets to pick from the remaining 7 of the pool. etc.
This will much more fairly seed the Open Bracket player (who might be the strongest player of the selection pool, or might not be), who gets seeded according to how likely the top players in the league think they might be to beat him. For example, he might be the most fearsome opponent, and get seeded 9th accordingly (left to play #8). Or, he might be perceived to have won on a flukey run, and get picked by the tournament winner. Or, someplace (anyplace) in between.
It greatly rewards the top players, who get to choose from what they think will be their best match-ups, strongly incentivizing winning the regular season without outrageous bonuses like byes.
It strongly discourages match throwing to avoid seeding conundrums, because they no longer exist.
It creates extra entertainment and rivalries by forcing players to select opponents that they think they can beat.
And it provides an extra 1/2 hour at the start of the broadcast where players can be introduced to the fans before their games.
I watched day 2 with Sen games. It's nice that the live stream is free and all so I'll give them that, but I couldn't find anything good to say about the event. If you put 100k out there, tastetosis/day9, handful of koreans, you're going to get hits of course. But because the event was so poorly executed, I think NASL could've been way bigger than it was.
It almost seems NASL cut back on all the important production value to get their prize money that way, which I don't agree on. You need good content for good games. If you have poor content for good games, its just a waste of money.
I think NASL knows much of whats needed to be done because I think they were lacking money or something. It looked like a tournament held by kids lol.
Insure that all the technical difficulties will be gone next time around, place in a more attractive production, have casting be consistant too.
And its not just about the casters, its the camera man in the early games of day 2. the guy was moving too fast and it was completely chaotic. It looked like someone who was observing a replay on his own instead.
And at some point in the day, one of the games had a message saying inControl was a fat retard or something. What is this? Like I said, its like kids hosting the show or something. I just hope everything will get revamped, to the extreme where nothing looks like season one and become this professional masterpiece. I highly doubt NASL can correct themselves in time since apparently the people that make NASL possible are inexperienced in showbiz
One think NASL can improve on is with their scheduling. The schedule changed so many times. And because of that I almost missed PuMa vs MC. Fortunately, I decided to wake up early.
Mic levels??? Are you kidding me.. after so many complaints, you still can't manage to get them right in the finals interview with Puma? Anna's mic was fine but you couldn't even hear the translator at all.
Fire the sound guy already and get a new production staff. Put professionals in charge NASL, please.
I liked the event mostly, amazing games and amazing casters (inc and gretorp included). Sure the obvious issues are there like the sound issues but I can live with that as long as it's corrected - stuff like that is just going to happen. My two big complaints are about scheduling and streaming.
The schedule changing was just terrible. When you tell people a certain game will happen at X time, you can't just make it an hour or 30 mins early - I feel horrible for the people that missed games because they started too early. The starting late happens, I get that. And when that happens people won't just miss games cause they are unaware of when they will happen - people cam gauge how far off the schedule you are and get an idea of when it'll start. You just have to release a schedule and get close, even run late but there's no excuse for going the other way and starting early.
My other main issue is the stream, which may be a jtv issue but it's worth mentioning. I paid $20 on day 1 so I expected HD for the season and finals but I often found myself on 360p and this weekend, experiencing major lag during battles. Now I realize most people had no issues, but some of the regional jtv servers had a ton of trouble all weekend and honestly too often during the regular season. I have good internet and no issues with almost any other stream so I don't know where the blame lies but it needs to be fixed for me to buy another season pass.
The great games and atmosphere made this one hell of an event, even with the issues. I look forward to season 2!
honestly the games were amazing....like seriously almost every single one was amazing. Only person to get wrecked was Boxer, but you cant help but love it cuz its boxer.
Anna, Rachel, and Lindsey loook unbelivable good...hmmm delicious . Underline ENT was fun to watch, the finals were epic.....casters were great.
Good job incontrol, gretorp, tastosis and ofc Day9.
Yes the sound was bad, but im sure the sound guy will either have learned, or they get a new one.
Sound guy really needs to be replaced or his girlfriend/wife/family forced to randomly speak barely in whispers till he knows how it feels and becomes determined to be the greatest sound guy ever. The 20minute intro vidoes shown multiple times obviously need to be trashed and it seemed nasl got the idea finally and didnt show any for the semis/finals I believe. Bo3 in the first 2 rounds with single elim seems a bit harsh to the guys who flew all the way out there just to lose in 10minutes, maybe change that up.
Linsey needs to be forced to learn nothing more about sc2 so her interviews remain hilarious instead of boring. I personally enjoyed the cheesey aspects like the hot chicks and what not, nerds gotta have a little fun once in a while doesn't always have to be so srs. Um thats it, fun weekend, hope to see more.
On July 11 2011 12:13 cusx wrote: I'm very sad, knowing that the competition was moved earlier. I woke up at 8am just to be disappointed
Please don't do that next time.
It's terrible that you missed it, but looking at the schedule one could have assumed it wasn't going to run the entire 8 hours. It was only scheduled as such so they had some sort of contingency and leniency with the timing.
Actually - no. They've had so much trouble and so many delays over the weekend that the only thing one could assume was that once they got their act together and things working, they'd actually stick to their schedule.
After their first rescheduling, I tuned in at 21:45 CET to find the first game played already, when the start of the match was scheduled for 22:00. I then went to bed around 23:00 when the finals were still set for 01:00, thinking it'd be too late to watch anyway, only to read this morning that they started at 23:30. Follow this thread to see lots of other viewers getting shafted by this. And you know what? None of this was announced officially. Sure, if I had F5'ed this thread's OP every 5 minutes or closely monitored some IRC chat, I might have noticed. But what about presenting such information where people may actually read it, like, on the stream? Nope. Nothing.
For the live audience at the venue, sure, this was cool. They didn't have to sit through 8 hours of random content to see a Bo5 and a Bo7. For thousands of viewers online, especially those outside the US, this partially or completely spoiled the event.
NASL got lucky. The games were so good that they overshadowed all the production issues. Some people in this thread have said that is not luck because NASL was able to attract the best players that resulted in the best games. We have seen many times in the past that just having great players does not guarantee great games. The format of the tournament and the caliber of players you draw certainly helps, but it by no means guarantees the kind of games we saw saturday and sunday.
I have seen people from the community offer their support and offer to help NASL in threads, on shows (djWheat even did so today) etc... and they instead chose to go it alone. I don't know if that is pride, arrogance, or stupidity, but clearly from the production side it was not a good choice. There are alot of tech savvy people in this community who would be willing to help for little or even no pay, use these resources please NASL if you don't have the money to hire experienced staff.
Just my two cents but I wanna say that Gretorp and Incontrol have come a long way as casters and I far preferred this NASL weekend to the last MLG. I'll take mic issues over blaring commercials any day. Did anyone notice that the 'blown out' sound on incontrol's mic made it sound super epic everytime his voice went up during intense moments? same sound quality as oldschool horse-race commentators
A vinyl banner, with grommets and a finished edge costs between $8 to $10 dollars a square foot. That banner is in the $200 dollar range. The person that ordered it obviously didn't know what they were doing, because as you mentioned, they had no hooks or points to fasten it from and it was just pinned or nailed to the desk. They didn't use the grommets at all.
Don't ask me how I know these things.
How do you know this?!?!?
I've been working as a Graphic Designer for a little more than ten years, and a design manager for the past year. I have some experience managing and design web and multimedia projects, but most of it related to exhibits and graphics for themed environments, small-format print work, illustration etc.
So I know quite a bit about large-format graphics, and how much it cost to make the most random things.
They could have just clad and painted the front of the desks with black plywood so they could mount the banner flush against it. The overbuilt white frames on all the cabinetry was a goofy, random decision made by someone that didn't think through the design and function of the desks before construction. I wouldn't be surprised if those desks were heavy as hell.
I can think of probably a dozen ways they could have done a better job with less money and less time.
Thanks for this.
It also struck me how they splurged for the vanity cheques but there wasn't a NASL sign in sight on stage.
Anyways, the problems from my post in Day 1 persisted through Day 2 and 3. The good games don't change that. Congrats on finishing it out but yeah, there's still a lot of work to be done.
The games were so great that after the finals i almost forgot about the production. But i have to say that it seems that they had a hughe budget but didnt spent it right. The hall felt to big, htey flew in a lot of casters and didnt use them a lot, the interviews were crappy and the audio guy was asleep half the time. Also no double elimination and a lot of downtime.
As awesome as the finals were i somehow feel that it is unfair that a lot of players have been playing for months to qualify for the finals and didnt get any reward, instead someone who didnt play a single match besides the finals took all the prize money.
It's hilarious how quickly people have forgiven them after the finals. The only good part of the event were the games, and they had no control over that. Everything that went wrong was down to the NASL. Going to be interesting watching them mess up next season and people turning on them again.
The whole thing feels like they've hired all their friends and family, rather than getting people with experience.
I think we should open a "brainstorm nasl" thread where we could invent the format of the next nasl (either nasl use it or not). I really feel the main problem of nasl, since the very first week, is they just don't think things enough or plan things enough. Seems they don't imagine what their decisions will look like concretely (fixed maps ? how could this idea go "live", I have no idea).
Next season will be 45 participants, I'm sure we could find a nice system for players, viewers and organizers. And same for the playoffs (well, not a lot of work there, either use bo5 or double elim, double elim would be better imo, this weekend showed that they could have a lot more games)
I really hope they switch to a double elimination finals, there were far to few games played/showed for the amount of time they took up. Showing nothing on stream for 30minutes ~ an hour is pretty lame. Then switch to interviewing audience for some reason, I'm not really sure. It's not why I tune in to the stream. Good luck with next season!
Just two things keep me from buying NASL 2. Battle Lag and Sound.
Battle Lag - During the big engagements, the stream turned into a slideshow. It's very annoying to miss the best part of the match. I don't have this issue on GOM, IGN, Day9 or any other streams.
Sound - I don't what I could say that hasn't already been covered. NASL really needs someone who knows what they are doing on sound. Please....
There are other small improvements that could be made. But the important thing is to broadcast the matches so we can hear and see them as intended.
Influ: Valid points --- but you must rememeber that the other tournaments have been around for a while. They have recurring sponsors, a more professional staff (sry nasl staff) and consqeuently - deeper pockets.
I think the NASL was working with the bare minimum of ammenities, so it was crucial they executed everything they DID provide correctly. Sadly, the sound was buggy (as mentioned), the stream laggy at times (as mentioned), and the format was terrible. Like others have said:
1) Huge breaks suck. 2) Make a schedule and STICK TO IT. 3) And most importantly ---- UPDATE YOUR GODDAMN TOURNAMENT WEBPAGE:
I think it is absolutely goddamn fucking pathetic that I have to come to Team Liquid to get ANY information about this tournament. Look: I understand that team liquid is the bastion of Starcraft information - the networking node that connects our souls and all that shit..... but SERIOUSLY. If you have a major tournament with a $50,000 first place prize, you think you could take the time at night to update your webpage for the next day. Scheduling, updated brackets, event developments, etc.
ITS A NOBRAINER. DO YOUR GODDAMN JOBS. I'm really glad I didn't buy a Season Pass. Some people will hate on me for criticizing so severely w/out contributing monetarily to the production of the event. Unfortunately for hte NASL (and many other producers), I don't relinquish my money until the product I'm purchasing is known to be in good working order. It is more than apparent that this product has defects.
As a paying subscriber for season one I would like to mention a few things.
Pros: Everyone and everything having to do with games, players, crowds.
The games between Sen and MC, and Puma and MC were AMAZING in my mind. July vs Sen was ok as well (zerg is just kinda meh to me, I know personal preference). I don't think Hollywood could have written a better script for the way the semi-finals and the finals played out. Trully epic. The casters were awesome, and the crowd was really into it. Explosive cheering for small things like a no gas getting scouted. The casting was amazing. Everyone loves Tastosis obviously, but Gretorp and Incontrol did great as well.
Cons: Im sure you've read it alot up to this point, but the only thing holding the tourney back from being the best in the history of SC (its still up there even with these cons) was the production.
The Sound as has been mentioned was seemingly always in flux. It would be to soft, then too loud, then too soft, then perfect, then too soft, then perfect, then too soft, then to loud, then perfect, then too soft. Arg! I was pretty dissapointed the 1080 was unwatchable, but he 720 was alright.
And the most annoying thing to me was waiting almost an hour between matches. As an online viewer I don't want to give up 8+ hours of my day to watch only 6-8 matches.
I think a double elimination bracket with bo3 up to quarters, bo5 in semis and bo7 in the final is the way to go. The sound and video issues can be attributed to inexperience I'm guessing, so I think NASL will fix that for the next season.
Beatiful women are nice but if they don't have the knowledge to go with it, it tends to create very awkward moments that are just hard watch. I think it's better to have the casters that aren't casting at the moment to conduct the interviews.
Skip the player intros and stream more games (should be no problem if you use a double elim bracket).
Good effort non the less, looking forward to the next season.
3) And most importantly ---- UPDATE YOUR GODDAMN TOURNAMENT WEBPAGE:
This is so true. The rules, the brackets, the start times, the winner, etc, should be posted on NASL.tv. Viewers should not have to go to TL to find out the latest on NASL.
Go to http://nasl.tv/ right now and what is shown? - "Live Match in Progress" (lol) - Finals bracket still incomplete (no winner show)
Where are the pics of the Finals? Where's Puma holding the over-sized check for $50,000? Right now the eSports spotlight is shining on NASL. And it is all going to waste.
3) And most importantly ---- UPDATE YOUR GODDAMN TOURNAMENT WEBPAGE:
This is so true. The rules, the brackets, the start times, the winner, etc, should be posted on NASL.tv. Viewers should not have to go to TL to find out the latest on NASL.
Go to http://nasl.tv/ right now and what is shown? - "Live Match in Progress" (lol) - Finals bracket still incomplete (no winner show)
Where are the pics of the Finals? Where's Puma holding the over-sized check for $50,000? Right now the eSports spotlight is shining on NASL. And it is all going to waste.
I'm not sure they know how to edit their website.
If you look at the bottom of the page it is made by "Web Advanced", a company that slaps skins on one-size-fits-all aspx websites. They probably have to put in a request to them to get anything changed.
I can't believe people hire companies that slap their own advertisement on your site these days. Much less one who uses aspx and Microsoft Windows server...
They really desperately need in house web development considering they are a web based business. Either that or just remove the site entirely and make nasl.tv a redirect to their actual base of operations on justin.tv.
Some points that have been probably mentioned, but this is how I felt.
Boring stage. Might as well put both casters in a dark closet (like they did with the players! Bazinga!).
Deaf audio engineer and observer who is having constant heart attacks.
Be professional when it comes to actual entertainment/casting. Don't fly 3 popular casters to the event if you're not going to use them when it really matters. This isn't kindergarten anymore, you don't get a gold star for trying. Same thing goes for interviews/music by Incontrols gf. Despite what he might think, the super majority rather not hear her sing and have someone else do the interviews. Her questions weren't particularly interesting.
Those player intros were really cool. Haha no, I'm just kidding.
Considering for how long first two days went on (being european, I didn't get to hear Tastosis a single time), they had content to fill maybe 1/5 of that time. Considering you have 5 casters on the location, there's no excuse to wait hours between each 2-0 series.
Fixed map pools and single elimination bo3 is a really, really bad idea.
Seeing what they did the entire season, I simply do not see where the money went. Not a single clue. + Show Spoiler +
I wish they would do away with the open tournament for a spot in the finals. It really disenfranchises the long regular season. Is there a precedent where this occurs in any sport in the history of the world? I can't imagine. Poor ret places first seed and should have the easiest first round but with the format he gets arguably the hardest. The winner of that open bracket tournament is always going to be some boss mode Korean who is likely a hell of a lot better than the #16 NASL seed. Sucks to be first.
edit: also
better sound guy better production staff double elim for top16 bracket more organization/schedule
I was planning on walking into the Victory Cafe just in time to grab a beer and sit down for the finals. But by then the whole god-damned thing was over.
I'd like to apologise for acting like a spoiled child when I found out Incontrol and Gretorp were casting the finals. I thought they both did a great job, Kudos to them both for making me eat humble pie.
What Hotbid said was right, there were a lot of problems with this tournament. But I will remember those finals forever, some fantastic entertainment.
The final match was the first time when I got my wife (she does play SC2) to watch SC2 live with me. We are really happy that they destroyed the schedule, because it turned out to be in a good time for us (midnight to 2 AM) and I think was so good that it may have convinced her to watch more SC2. And that, my friends, that is good for ESPORTS!
But it was quite interesting from other viewpoint: as she basically never watched esports live, she considered a lot of stuff funny - even things I did not realize, or have become blind to. So i would like to bring you what I have observed from her reaction, so you can get a viewpoint of someone basically new to esports.
The main thing for sure was the casting language - "there will be no sort of ghost academy" or "he has no kind of high templars", that is just syntactially wrong. There are no sorts nor kinds of these things, they are pretty unique And Inc+Gretorp do that a lot (together with other illogical sentences) and it distracted her from otherwise a quite good of a cast.
Nevertheles, I thnik she had a lot of fun looking at IncontroL in general - this is not bashing, it's just his looks and mainy hairstyle are ... different from what we usually see in TV (and we consider this basically a TV show), or around us in general. Overall I think she was quite surprised with the amateur looks of the production. I personally don't care too much as I just am a fan of the community and find it pretty cool that NASL even exists. But to and outside observer, who expects to see something like a sports event in TV, it is a little disappointing to see all sorts of little glitches, constantly inbalanced sound etc
On the other hand, I thnik she was quite caught in the story, when I explained her who MC is and how PuMa got into finals through the open tournament and all sorts of history around the whole NASL. I thnik that these things should have been repeated during the finals for new veiwers, so that they see the really thrilling backstory that is behind the current match. Because in this finals, there really was a lot to talk about.
I think we should all reflect on this and remember that things that we do not see may be much bigger to other people.
The only way I knew when the NASL was coming on was coming to TL or hearing an announcement at the very end of the broadcast on day 1/2 which most people don't watch all the way until the end.... That shouldn't happen. The NASL website literally had nothing on start times or anything besides maybe the first day I think.
I love nasl but I just have a few things to add to hopefully change for next season:
1. I purchased the vods but I could NEVER watch them. They are too high quality and the constant buffering made it impossible to watch. if I learn that lower quality vods are provided in season 2 I will purchase the ticket again.
... now that I think about it.. that is pretty much my only gripe.. though it is a big one.
Im actually so shocked by the poll results with people wanting a ro16 group stage. You already have a HUGE group stage that seperates the top players. The grand finals are not a one off event where you just "turn up" from Europe and then lose and go home in 1 bo3, they are the culmination of the 9-10 weeks of play you already had.
The huge group stage of NASL already provides players with enough chances to play games, make a few slip ups and importantly to make sure their team name gets enough exposure to keep the sponsors happy for paying the bills to make the trips possible.
Sometimes I dont want more games, I just want games that mean something, and a single elimination bracket sure as anything gives you that in a way that a group play cant quite capture. At the end of the day a player might not be happy that they went out in the first round of a single elimination event. But you know what, they arnt going to be that happy going out in a group play either.
I can see the merits of a bo5 if time constraints allow, given the quoted "randomness" of the game as this retains the drama of single elimination. Still.. I do kinda love the randomness. Does no one else enjoy the tension/hope/excitement of a match where the outcome can feel so uncertain at the beginning. It may sound dumb, but if the best player always won, competition could get really boring!
On July 12 2011 06:44 Schwang wrote: I love nasl but I just have a few things to add to hopefully change for next season:
1. I purchased the vods but I could NEVER watch them. They are too high quality and the constant buffering made it impossible to watch. if I learn that lower quality vods are provided in season 2 I will purchase the ticket again.
... now that I think about it.. that is pretty much my only gripe.. though it is a big one.
Pretty sure lower quality vods ARE available even now. Im certain ive been watching them in 480p
1. Hire a lighting designer. It looked like the stage was lit by brute force of a gazzilion lights. (both at the event and in the studio) More strategic placement of lights will vastly improve production value
2. Makeup. I'm not sure if the event had a dedicated makeup artist, but both the players and the casters would benefit from it. Because the stage lighting was so bright it made the lack of makeup/bad makeup even more obvious.
3. Write a script for the event. Plan in advance. There should be a stage manager that ushers both players and casters to and from the stage. There should be a director who decides which camera to follow and when to insert filler. Stuff like intro videos and historical reels should be prepared as filler, not slotted into the main event.
4. Rotate out the casters more frequently. It will keep the energy high and elevate the quality of casting. There were 5 casters there, at least 1 of them could be an obs at any given time.
On July 12 2011 06:44 Schwang wrote: I love nasl but I just have a few things to add to hopefully change for next season:
1. I purchased the vods but I could NEVER watch them. They are too high quality and the constant buffering made it impossible to watch. if I learn that lower quality vods are provided in season 2 I will purchase the ticket again.
... now that I think about it.. that is pretty much my only gripe.. though it is a big one.
Pretty sure lower quality vods ARE available even now. Im certain ive been watching them in 480p
Some DSL connections require 360 and under or it buffs.
If he is running a slower DSL in a secluded area, then he requires 360p or lower.
I enjoyed the weekend. i had no time to watch the regular season everyday but i enjoyed the finals. Still there are pretty big issues that i'm sure you have heard 100000x but here we go.
1. The format, too many games to get to the finals imo, i had no time/interest to watch any of them. The european restream is great but still i lacked the interest. Even moreso now that we have seen you don't need to play the first 9 weeks to win the all thing.
2. The sound, ya get a new sound guy it was REALLY bad.
3. The Website, still not updated ? unacceptable.
4. Female interviewers ? no, just no. Look it's great having cute chicks up there, but their lack of sc2 knowledge or overall geekiness made it awkward. And most of the questions sucked. Why not have casters do the interviews?
5. Player videos, cool but too long. I know you wanted to use the content of the 9 previous weeks but it was too much.
The games, and for the most part casting was great.
On the other hand production on all levels was horrible, NASL needs to hire professionals that know what they are doing, when the sound guy cant even keep the left and right channels balanced its time to replace them.
On July 11 2011 09:55 Whitewing wrote: Fix the open bracket issue, a lot of people don't like that a player can win the open bracket then get a fair shot at first place when all the league participants put in way more time and effort (even though it doesn't make it actually easier).
Maybe put the top 2 people in from each division and then the last spot, instead of going to an open bracket player goes to the person with the best record from the league play that didn't make the top 2 of his own division.
I like the open bracket idea. It gives relatively unknown or unpopular players a chance to show their skill. If Puma would have applied via applications, I don't think he would have had even been considered to be put in the regular pool.
And come on, it wasn't that bad for the regular players (except for the Koreans who had to wake up at absurd times). They didn't have to play every day, 8 hours a day, for 9 weeks as some people are making it sound. They played around once a week- in the comfort of their own home- in their underwear if they chose to.
It's a league. There should be a good reason to participate in league play. There is less of a reason if someone can conceivably (and did!) show up to one open bracket tournament, win that, then win the whole 50 grand. It makes the 9 weeks of games less meaningful and significant, and thus detracts from the value of the entire event.
But your chances at making the finals are much greater by playing in the 9 week season rather than the open tournament. You are able to drop games in the regular season, but if you do in the open tournament you are done. Darkforce and HasuObs both went 5-4 in the regular season, but still made the finals. Puma went like 8-0 in the open bracket and faced multiple Korean pro's on the way.
The good reason to participate in league play is that you have a better chance at making the finals.
What matters more is that it gives a good reason for the viewers to want to watch the games. The more meaningful the games are, the more people would be interested in watching. It devalues the league itself, and encourages tuning in just for the finals themselves.
Basically from what I've read the people who criticized the interviews also criticized that they were female. Not one or the other, but both. It's fine to criticize the questions they asked, but why also their gender?
I think the female interviewers were a good addition. Maybe they don't appeal to the hardcore/technical Starcraft fans, but they provided entertainment and appealed to a broader range of people who are casually into Starcraft/have not heard of it. It's also good for the people who attended the event live, as it added a little more hype and excitement among the crowd. (Everyone wanted interviews with Lindsey. I was one of the people interviewed.) Great games were the main reason the crowd was reactive, but she also put a lot of people in a good mood.
It might be a cultural thing in the US, but having attractive women in a show or form of media is an effective way of marketing anything in the country, and it's great that females are able to find a way to actively participate in a male dominant run tournament. All mainstream sports in America have some sort of sex appeal for both males and females. (Michael Phelps, Jeff Gordon, Labron, Tony Romo, Derek Jeter, Tastosis to name a few males) There are females who get into the sport because they see an attractive guy, and it works the same for males seeing attractive females.
So for the haters, hate the questions and personality or whatever, but there's no real reason on hating on their gender. I'm sure if the interviewer was male and asked the same questions there would be a lot less hater comments, because the questions were entertaining.
(The event was awesome live, I suggest anyone capable of going to the next season finals or MLG Anaheim later this month to attend. It is a totally different experience than watching it online. Obviously there were production issues, and hopefully they address and fix it all for next season.)
EPT
I think my biggest point of constructive feedback would be, to get professional staff
(and to be serious, the games I catched, were mostly amazing).
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he should beat MC
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)
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