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Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2.
What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence.
Same thing with teams, I can't practice against anyone or join a team JUST BECAUSE I'm not 13, the common response is, "We don't want to take the risk." What risk? I don't see any harm in trying me out, but just because I'm a certain age means that I cant even TRY? My voice isn't that high, the problem here is that teenagers or people under 16 HAVE PROVEN - Gosu.Pokebunny that they can compete. (Much respect to you) Everyone ravels at Pokebunny with words such as, a child prodigy, amazing, how can you do this at such a young age, and yet when ever another "child prodigy" tries to step in the scene hes immediately shot down.
I am sorry if this is generalizing people, but this is what I have seen in my days of SC2 so thanks for reading guys and I hope you have a g'day.
I'll leave you with the, Why do kids get the hate? question that I started it all off with.
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legal issues and parents can often be a problem as well, imagine if something in your real life happened right before a match that you agreed to play, like you got bad grades. some parents would not allow the player to play the games. some would, but the admins cant tell what kind of parents you have.
Avoiding people under 18 helps avoid problems.
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For one example there are often laws for children competing in these kinds of events across the world. Also knowingly letting children participate may increase legal liability if any thing bad happens, think sexual suggestions or the like.
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Hello Warrice,
There are plenty of people that no-show due to their jobs like a sudden-call up. I don't agree with the, anything could happen before a match statement, because there are LOTS of people have things happen before a match. 18 above and below are the same.
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Because if you run a team with 18+ people you can trust them to attend games/LANs while younger people are still ruled over by their parents. Also, people just love to hate on things, young age seems to be one of them. We got a 13 year old hanging out in our voice chat, he just got master so skill wise it should be alright.
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I think a lot of it has to do with immaturity, and the fact that teams can't really rely on a kid being there whenever they need him/her. People usually use 16 or 18 as a standard of independence and maturity level. When you're 13, you're much more dependent on your parents or guardians.
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Honestly from being a leader in a Counter Strike Source clan, we never allowed kids because most were annoying. It's nothing personal against them, but "most" don't have a lot of things relating to 18+ men and some women. We also didn't want "squeakers".
There is always an exception to everything, but the easier thing to do is just say "no one under 18". It saves time.
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Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone.
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Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
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Easier to just say 18+ and prevent any potential legal problems. That, and most kids are annoying even if they don't realize it.
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On June 26 2011 04:01 Nagisa. wrote:
Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone.
That's the point. So why would people take even more of a risk with someone who has to ask their parents permission for stuff?
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While you may feel that you are mature for your age, and your ladder rating shows you're capable of competing in tournaments and such, I feel society in general just has a hard time giving credibility to just anyone. It's hard to trust someone who's relatively young for some people, simply because they can't imagine viewing someone younger as a peer or equivalent.
But there are other young members in the esports community who are around your age a 2-3years older, so stay strong, keep doing what you're doing, and one day, it'll pay off
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It was the same for me in WC3. Get over it.
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On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
no its not
its 12+ in europe
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On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
In the states its 13+. Dunno what its rated in your country.
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Looking at your post, and the manner in which it was written, you are clearly more intelligent and eloquent than the average 13 year old. However, people like you and Pokebunny are few and far between in the 16 and under crowd, and most tournament organizers would rather make exceptions to the rule for people like you than just broadly allow immature people into their tournament. As for people bming you or excluding you, its probably a combination of factors. Some just blindly hate kids in the same way racists hate minorities, while some genuinely are concerned about RL issues of some kind.
I wish you the best, and if worst comes to worst just give it time because you won't be thirteen forever.
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come back when you're good enough to have a shot at winnning tournament/ joining a sponsored team
otherwise I can't understand why you would be bummed by it all.
1300 15 yo master T !!!
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On June 26 2011 04:03 luckylefty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:01 Nagisa. wrote:
Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone. That's the point. So why would people take even more of a risk with someone who has to ask their parents permission for stuff?
Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time.
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Before I say anything, you can act any age on the internet, with "sophisticated" writing. I know how you feel with being discriminated being so young. I used to deal with that on shooters back a couple of years. But all I got to say is have some patients. Don't rush growing up, it's not that great anyways. T.T
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On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:03 luckylefty wrote:On June 26 2011 04:01 Nagisa. wrote:
Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone. That's the point. So why would people take even more of a risk with someone who has to ask their parents permission for stuff? Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time.
You can't legally sign contracts. You can't legally drive. You can't legally hold a job, depending on where you live. You are dependent on your parents.
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Because even though you consider yourself to be an exception, you're like 1 in 100 people who act differently than they "should", according to their age. In my CA clan, we had this kid, I think he was 11, he had a voice so acute, I literally went deaf when he spoke. He got kicked because he was just a lame NXer. But after all, isn't that what combat arms is all about?
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On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:03 luckylefty wrote:On June 26 2011 04:01 Nagisa. wrote:
Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone. That's the point. So why would people take even more of a risk with someone who has to ask their parents permission for stuff? Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time.
Nobody is saying 100% every single kid has to do XYZ. You are obviously missing the point. The point is MOST do because they are under age and it's not like they can just do whatever they want because of certain factors. Its easier to exclude the one exception to a case than to let everyone in and try to filter.
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It comes down to maturity and responsibility. One might think their parents can drive them, but something comes up, and then they miss a match or two. People not showing up really plagues tourneys, and inviting people under 18 is inviting these kinds of issues, and I saw this first hand with a few players in the New England Starcraft 2 League.
Pokebunny got knocked out of MLG because he was late for his match. Perhaps if had double checked his schedule he wouldn't have been knocked out like that, and that is something you learn overtime in life. He won't make that mistake again I am sure, but it is too bad he wasn't 26 and didn't learn that earlier in life, when it may not have mattered as much.
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We tend to act with prejudice, because it's efficient 
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On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:03 luckylefty wrote:On June 26 2011 04:01 Nagisa. wrote:
Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone. That's the point. So why would people take even more of a risk with someone who has to ask their parents permission for stuff? Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time.
Er depends on how you define prime. I wouldn't define "prime" as being completely dependent on your parents while having little to no life experience in anything.
If I were admin of a tournament or I team I simply wouldn't want to deal with the troubles of organizing things for such a young kid when I have so many other problems and tasks to solve and finish.
About the kid hate, most little kids are terribly fucking annoying. So don't go around blabbing about your age and you're fine. I don't go around blabbing about my age do I? For all you know I could be 12, but it really doesn't matter since I don't tell anyone.
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As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For every one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Edit: If you are the second in a million, with top grandmaster talent, a stable attitude (unlikely since you've admitted you've bad mannered in the recent past), parents who are completely understanding and supporting of your hobby, and willing to discuss year-long legal contracts, which will bind their 13 year old son to what amounts essentially to a close-to-full-time job, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Domino
4Kings
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I would think the legal issues are the main thing, like others have said. It's probably a big hassle to sort out the legalities of guardian approval and such and just not worth it considering most teenagers are just not tournament material. Just wait a few years, SC2 isn't going anywhere.
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On June 26 2011 04:15 BronzeKnee wrote:
It comes down to maturity and responsibility. One might think their parents can drive them, but something comes up, and then they miss a match or two. People not showing up really plagues tourneys, and inviting people under 18 is inviting these kinds of issues, and I saw this first hand with a few players in the New England Starcraft 2 League.
Pokebunny got knocked out of MLG because he was late for his match. Perhaps if had double checked his schedule he wouldn't have been knocked out like that, and that is something you learn overtime in life. He won't make that mistake again I am sure, but it is too bad he wasn't 26 and didn't learn that earlier in life, when it may not have mattered as much.
Catz got kicked out of MLG too, if anything your post shows how age has very little to do with whether you're going to be an issue at tourneys.
I'm with you OP, I'm 16 now but I started gaming when I was young, I used to lie about my age in WoW until I was comfortable enough with a clan to go on vent, then they realized I was like 13 and were surprised. If people would give us half a chance they'd be surprised.
It's mostly a stereotype and it feels kind of discriminatory.
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On June 26 2011 04:11 luckylefty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:On June 26 2011 04:03 luckylefty wrote:On June 26 2011 04:01 Nagisa. wrote:
Again, the thing with people not attending games or lans, PainUser just completely no showed the NASL one of the biggest SC2 tournaments in the world because of his conflicting job at IGN. (No hate on Painuser I love him.) Anything can come up for anyone. That's the point. So why would people take even more of a risk with someone who has to ask their parents permission for stuff? Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time. Nobody is saying 100% every single kid has to do XYZ. You are obviously missing the point. The point is MOST do because they are under age and it's not like they can just do whatever they want because of certain factors. Its easier to exclude the one exception to a case than to let everyone in and try to filter.
I do not know any kids who would ask their parents permission to play in an sc2 tournament.
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Different countries have different ratings. The ESRB rated it teen, or 13+
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I think the fact that by you automatically denying other people's opinions kind of destroys your own point. There is a reason that there is a generalization over the 13 year olds. They aren't mature enough and can easily be taken advantage of, among many other issues. Dealing with 13 year olds isn't fun and more often than not becomes more of a hassle to deal with. It isn't like this is the end of the world. Video games will still be around when you get older. As stated before, you just have to be patient. We were all there once, we know what it is like to be generalized and also be the ones to generalize. There is a reason it exists this way.
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On June 26 2011 04:18 Juice! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:04 _Nano_ wrote:On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason?? no its not its 12+ in europe Then you should re-check your starcraft 2 box mate .. On mine it says +16 And if you don't believe me, check the link :-) http://www.pegi.info/en/index/global_id/505/?searchString=starcraft 2
It's 12+ in germany, PEGI is not the offical rater in every country
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I think one of the answers can be seen in the title of this post... Why do kids get the hate?
someone with older and wiser might have said something less inflammatory like
Why are younger players less accepted within the SC2 community.
Aside from that, for me accepting a 13 year old would be hard because of the life experiences you have. I am 25 years old, have a 4 year old son, i work full time pay rent all my bills and support my family. There is no possible way for you to understand what is going on in my life, no matter how "mature for your age" you are. I would have a very hard time treating someone who has never lived away from home with much respect, and not like just a kid.
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It's easier from a legal standpoint.
Not only that, most tournaments don't want to deal with kids. Honestly, even though you are an exception, most all adults automatically assume "kids are irresponsible and a hassle" for a very good reason. Because most are. They don't want to have to deal with their parents or have to make special accommodations because of school or whatnot because they have a thousand other issues to tackle.
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On June 26 2011 04:17 v1dom wrote:
As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For everyone one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Domino
4Kings
This pretty much sums it up.
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In America there are taxes on winning prizes from tournaments and it becomes a legal issue if your under 18. Also you would be expected to file it in your taxes etc. I'm sure most tournaments realize that there are plenty of talented players under the age of 18 but things like parents, school, jobs, being able to drive, accommodations (if you have to stay at a hotel or something), and if your under 18 then the tournament host will be responsible for you if your parents sign off on your participation (there may be a way around this one).
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in Terms of prizes, I can see why there is an issue for younger players. same when it comes to unordinary terms/rules.
but i do agree, most of the younger players don tget much respect. however, I just suggest you don't tell anyone until asked. the way you act should carry you further.
and 13 is not a prime age, the main reason being that your brain has alot of growing to do. the actual prime imo is gonna be 17-25. your brain actually peaks at around age 23 (so technically I think thats the prime prime age)
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Heck if i know. I just answered my door to see two little boys complaining that a baby bird fell from a tree. Of course I told them that it happens all the time, and luckily it didn't land on the dog's side of the fence to be eaten, but they insisted since I am taller I carry it back up to its nest. Full well knowing that it's mother would never accept a tainted scent bird, I cupped it in my hands and carried the bridling to safety. Sure enough it will be pecked to death or run form its old home later the boys walked off feeling better about themselves for "doing the right thing."
God I hate people.
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The majority of young kids are very immature and annoying. You are a rare exception. I think it is silly that some tournaments have age requirements, though. Day9 was like 15 when he started going to WCGs right?
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On June 26 2011 04:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
and 13 is not a prime age, the main reason being that your brain has alot of growing to do. the actual prime imo is gonna be 17-25. your brain actually peaks at around age 23 (so technically I think thats the prime prime age)
I can count the number of broodwar progamers who reached their prime at 23 with the number of fingers on my feet.
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And honestly, younger players are just aggravating as hell.
I hate it when I have to deal with immaturity online because I get enough of that in my day to day life.
Unfortunately, for every good guy like you there's 5000 babies who piss off the grown ups.
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WHY YALL GOTTA HATE FROM OUTSIDE DA CLUB? YOU CAINT EVEN GET EEN.......
HAHAHA
User was warned for this post
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I would say that the people who give you no respect simply for your age are the immature ones.. especially if you've displayed yourself as mature for your age.
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It's less about maturity and more about reliability. For example, it's hard to trust younger people if they can't legally drive to a LAN or cannot accept prizes or sign contracts.
To be honest, though, people claiming that they don't want to play with younger players because they're likely to be more immature are immature themselves, unless they've found a definitive link between maturity and age beyond what is artificially driven into our minds.
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It does suck, and it's quite obvious that young people can have lots of skill (see Leenock).
I think legal reasons may be a large one. You legally can't sign contracts yourself and have them legally binding a lot of the time.
In some countries you can't actually earn that much money that young (In Australia you must be 14 & 9 months) to have a job and if a competition wants to be legit, it probably requires you to claim your earnings as opposed to just cash in hand which other jobs do for people who work younger than the legal age
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On June 26 2011 04:04 _Nano_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason?? no its not its 12+ in europe
It's 12+ in Germany i guess i bought my copy in Sweeden and it says 16 +
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I totally feel you... Im 14 yrs old and am top 50 for masters in NA, but nobody cares since i am under 18. Ofc u can go on about contracts etc, but what it all boils down to is whether or not the kid has the passion and drive to succeed as a starcraft player. Young talent is what ushers in new generations of gamers, so why should people as a community reject them? I have competed in many local lans etc, and a good fraction of the people are under 18. It only makes sense that the community should work with us so that we can excel and actually join pro teams. Every time I apply for a team my heart sinks when i scroll down the requirements list and see 18+... Age is just a single indicator of maturity. Its sad to see how such a label defines peoples' views and impressions of younger players.
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We don't HATE kids,
because age is something that's always changing. saying that we HATE kids is just as silly as saying that we hate our past selves. Ageism is not the same as racism and sexism.
The reason why you are having so many difficulties is because of the way social and legal structures are built around this world. When authorities make laws and rules, they make generalizations (which is necessary). Kids overall are less mature and more unstable than adults, due to their dependency on their parents, therefore there are more elements that they cannot control, and therefore they carry more risk. Not only in Esports , but think any contract or paper that you have to sign
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The points about legality are understandable. The "[most] younger kids are annoying/immature" is just a bad generalization, though. People mistake two different conceptions of maturity which justify this incorrect mindset. Maturity refers to either biological maturity or maturity of character. The former is one people associate the term with, so they automatically assume that the latter is contingent upon that physical age. The problem is that maturity of character actually refers to things like responsibility and things like tact, which most teenagers should have developed. Psychological science, for instance, determines that the human brain develops proper judgment capacity at around 12-14 years of age. Another problem is that there is no clear line in the sand between "an immature kid" and a mature one, so the generalization of all "young kids" fails once again. It's arbitrary to claim that an 18 year old is suddenly more mannered than a 17 year old, and it's just as arbitrary to claim that divide between 2 years of age and so on. The only proper distinction is one of legality.
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Funny fact. I was definitely more mannered when I was 13-16 years old playing wc3, than I am now (22). But I was not more mature, and there was a lot of things I did not really understand back then. But maturity is not equal to mannerism.
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when i was 13 i went outside and had fun with my friends and socialize, instead of staying in my dark room during daylight and play some pc games.
maybe all these people want to protect you and give you the opportunity to do the same instead of spending your youth playing pc games.
i can garantee you, that you will have enough time for playing pc games when you are older unless you shoot yourself b/c of psychic disorders due to spending your youth in the basement [/exaggeration]
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Whatever you say, 13 year old kids are ALWAYS going to be less immature than 18+ adults simply because your brains are not as developed as them. Science says so.
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Well, i am 15 years old, and yes, it is kind of annoying when you want to play in a tournaments, or join a team, then you read the requirements and it says: "you need to be at least 16 years old in order to play/apply". While it is true that a lot of underage people are indeed very immature, not everyone is like that.
There are a lot of young players with great potential, but i understand why teams or tournaments won't allow people under certain ages, because some are immature or because of the law issues. Nevertheless, i think teams should make exceptions for some players if the team thinks they are worth it, because young players have a lot of potential, and giving them the environment they need to become better players, could really pay off when they get older and get to travel to live events and represent their teams.
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People who make sweeping generalizations about your character and skill based on your age are dumb. Everyone should make evaluations of individuals based off their actions. It is an unfortunate things that happens though, whether you are a girl, or too young, or too old, or whatever the hell it happens to be. In the long run though, people who decide you aren't worth talking to because of your age are not people worth being around anyway.
As for the tournament/team stuff-- I think people here have discussed some of the legal/commitment issues. Just like with child actors, or serious competitive child athletes, it requires a huge investments from the family and parents to make it work. At a younger age, many things are out of your control. If your parents don't have the commitment you do, it may be impossible to make it work. The sacrifices needed in terms of time, and travel, and reorganization of the rest of the family's lives around your commitments are a hard thing to sell-- especially considering that for every child prodigy (of chess/gymnastics/acting/singing/swimming) that makes it, there are thousands more than never quite achieve what they and their family has been pursuing for so many years.
If you are truly exceptional, and your parents are willing to back you in all of it, don't give up your pursuit to join a professional team and compete. Otherwise, use the next few years wisely to get even better, make friends with people who value you as an individual, and take the scene by storm when you reach that age. 
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Listen all of the younger kids here I'm only 16 and I can't join the 18+ stuff either but it makes sense. You can't do anything legally like accept prize money and for the clans that don't want under 18s because of past experiences with annoying little kids you should blame the kids not the clans. It just makes sense and I personally accept it even if im annoyed because of it.
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Every year I grow older, I look back and think about how stupid and foolish I acted during that time. It's extremely hard to be mature without life experience, for which being intellectually precocious will not compensate. Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong, but besides the logistical issues which other posters have discussed, it's just more reliable to trust players over 18 (which I assume is because that is when puberty ends, or high school ends, or something).
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On June 26 2011 04:44 Geordie wrote:
Whatever you say, 13 year old kids are ALWAYS going to be less immature than 18+ adults simply because your brains are not as developed as them. Science says so.
umm, less mature or less immature, thats a double negative. I am assuming ur saying that younger always equates to being more immature... in which case I can't say I agree. There are some infamous sc2 players which i won't name, but I am sure u can figure them out yourself. I am positive they are less mature than some players under 18...
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i don't see why it would make a difference in online tournaments though
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On June 26 2011 04:35 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
The points about legality are understandable. The "[most] younger kids are annoying/immature" is just a bad generalization, though. People mistake two different conceptions of maturity which justify this incorrect mindset. Maturity refers to either biological maturity or maturity of character. The former is one people associate the term with, so they automatically assume that the latter is contingent upon that physical age. The problem is that maturity of character actually refers to things like responsibility and things like tact, which most teenagers should have developed. Psychological science, for instance, determines that the human brain develops proper judgment capacity at around 12-14 years of age. Another problem is that there is no clear line in the sand between "an immature kid" and a mature one, so the generalization of all "young kids" fails once again. It's arbitrary to claim that an 18 year old is suddenly more mannered than a 17 year old, and it's just as arbitrary to claim that divide between 2 years of age and so on. The only proper distinction is one of legality.
You obviously haven't been around many teenagers, or at least don't have the perspective of an older person looking at them. Most people don't gain any true maturity until they've gotten real world experience, either after high school or college, when they have to support themeselves. I would say that there is a pretty hard line that defines mature or immature. it is; "if this kind had to fend for him/herself for a few months, would he or she have the necessary skills to find a job, keep up on basic responsibilities such as paying the bills, maintaining a healthy diet, being reliable at work and elsewhere, etc. If people are confident that you can do that, than you are mature. If not, you're immature. I would say that pretty much everyone under 16 couldn't do that, both because of character flaws, and because of the current laws and society. Those who can are the clear exception, not the rule.
Furthermore, I would say that about half of my peers (i'm 20, most of my friends are 19-25) would not fall under that definition of mature, and I don't think that is very uncommon. immature people are obviously a huge liability for many reasons that have already been stated, and I know that all managers would treat immature people the same, whether they are 13 or 30. The only difference is that if you are younger, you are expected to be immature, which is normal, but that means you just have to work harder to prove otherwise. A mature person would be able to see this, and would understand why this is the case and act accordingly.
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I can't really respond to all of the posts but I do know, eighteen8 I don't think this thread was made about what you should be doing with your life when your 13.
About the legality and stuff, this is probably the best point out there, and I have to say it's not exactly a hassle, if you were given a situation where you had a top 5 player but you wouldn't recruit him because he had to get his parents to sign his contracts. I don't think you'd deny it would you?
Again, I mentioned the generalization in the OP. Here's something for you, many people I talk to (any age) think that asians are just smarter than Americans. Asians are #1 in Math globally, but does that mean the generalization is correct? No. The reason for that is because you can't just say oh this group of people are better or worse than this group of people. Just like you can't say all kids are immature, sure if you did a study I bet you'd find the majority of kids are immature/annoying. But the exceptions outweight the majority, since the exceptions can turn into something truly great. I.e. pokebunny, flash started at 15? I think? People start from somewhere you shouldn't shut them down before they have a chance.
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On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks.
^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro
lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future  good luck and don't let it get to you
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On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you
The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross.
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Yea Nagisa pretty much summed it up, I guess the real question is when does age no longer become a big deal, and at what point of success should a player be accepted regardless of their age... Another thing to remember is that the player is making their way up the ladder on their own, sicne most teams dont even accept younger players. Like atm, I am hovering around rank 50 in NA masters, but i cant get that extra boost that i need from having a team to practice with to break the barrier into masters league.
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On June 26 2011 04:50 Nagisa. wrote:
I can't really respond to all of the posts but I do know, eighteen8 I don't think this thread was made about what you should be doing with your life when your 13.
About the legality and stuff, this is probably the best point out there, and I have to say it's not exactly a hassle, if you were given a situation where you had a top 5 player but you wouldn't recruit him because he had to get his parents to sign his contracts. I don't think you'd deny it would you?
Again, I mentioned the generalization in the OP. Here's something for you, many people I talk to (any age) think that asians are just smarter than Americans. Asians are #1 in Math globally, but does that mean the generalization is correct? No. The reason for that is because you can't just say oh this group of people are better or worse than this group of people. Just like you can't say all kids are immature, sure if you did a study I bet you'd find the majority of kids are immature/annoying. But the exceptions outweight the majority, since the exceptions can turn into something truly great. I.e. pokebunny, flash started at 15? I think? People start from somewhere you shouldn't shut them down before they have a chance.
Most people aren't terrorists, but we still have to take our shoes off at the airport. Life is unfair.
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Don't look at this as a handicap. Look at this as an opportunity to set yourself up for success in a few years. You have the skill and support system that most people had no shot at when they were 13.
Sure you can't be part of a team, but you can find people at your level and beyond who can help you grow as a player. In a few years time, you will be a well known player and if your skill has grown as well, then you should have no problems finding a team.
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Legality issues are one thing, but treating people like shit because you're making assumptions about them due to an immutable trait is another. Lots of the people here are just making this rampant assumptions because of their interactions with some people under 18.
Treating a whole group of people based on the actions of some of the people within that group (whether those people are a majority or minority) is stereotyping and stupid.
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Everybody gets hate do your thing anyway. The world is like 90% haters people who want but are to weak to get and talk about coulda, woulda & shouldas. Get tough now it'll help you immensly in the long run. Walk tall and forward. You'll get everything you've ever wanted and more I promise.
Just keep working when you're a top GM they'll give you respect no matter what, there will still be haters hating on you though ;-)
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On June 26 2011 04:52 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks. ^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross.
Jeopardy has its teen tournament and I believe they do pay out money to kids (where it goes specifically I don't know). But if something were to happen, there's going to be a lot of legal issues involved and I don't think your parents want to be tied up in that. Remember, it's their decision that matters and not yours.
If I were you, I'd just play independently for now, someone go to MLG and make a showing there. If you do win or show an impressive showing, every team is going to flock to you and try to recruit you but to prepare, just play and enjoy the game for now.
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Libo, with a 9 pm EST bedtime I don't know how you would be okay.
at least its not as bad as eric dong though with his 6 pm est curfew
GET AT ME BRO.
8D
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Ask the admins to compare you to CombatEX. I'm sure they'll let you participate in any tourney. ^^
On a serious note, it's just that younger people are not given legal privileges. Why? The general population of young teens are... have a good number of loose screws in the head. Not only that, if you go for an out of state LAN for example, if you got lost, the guys managing the LAN would get a shitstorm delivered to them by your parents since they're going to be burdened with the responsibility of taking care of an underage person.
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This thread raises some good arguements but like people have said, get over it OP. I think most people have had that moment when they were younger and thought they were more mature then much older people, truth is we're not and when I got older I realised what a retard I was for thinking it. You will aswell.
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On June 26 2011 04:52 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks. ^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross.
but thats the thing it wouldn't be your money to give your parents would get it til you were 18 also its just a LOT of hassle because of legal issues, if want to know more about it i would just pm poke and see if he responds because he is in the situation you would be in
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The short and easy answer is not having the players parents be a potential problem.
However I like many also can't stand high pitched young boy voices so for me that would be a factor as well. And though you act all mature and stuff now in this post. But you say you've gotten in to trouble for disrespecting. I've been banned as well.. don't think it was due to being disrespectful though but w/e still, there's a higher tendency for younger people to act immature even though some never grow out of it it's still more common among youngsters. As for teams it's a legal issue as well if you were to join EG for instance, I guess your parents would have to sign you on as well since they are the ones in charge etc. It's just a lot of stuff that factors in but still games should be for fun at that age, come back when you are 16 and own it up if you think you've got potential.
Also don't think going pro would be beneficial for you. Would leave less time for school and the e-sports business isn't exactly established fully yet so I'd recommend finishing school at least so you have something to fall back on if the whole pro thing doesn't work out for you.
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I was around 13 when sc came out... I'm 27 now and I entered quite a few tournaments when I was younger that had age restrictions. I think it's to cover their ass legally to make you say you're 18. I don't think they will make you prove it. Not sure if i'd worry about it.
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Sorry to say this.. but at that age I also thought I was very mature.
I was so wrong 
Although the things I do now are way more stupid then what I did back then, but that's mainly because my parents wouldn't let me ^^
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i am also 12 so i know what you mean, my rule is there are no fists on the internet, unless webcams are involved no-one can see you, you have to be ultra stupid to meat a pedophile in real life from meeting them on the internet. I have competed in 4 seinheiser cups a TLopen and a Go4SC2, none requires ages, or just lie about your age, cant harm you. As for the age limit the 16 is there for the cinematics. Blizzard themselves have an option for saying 'signing up for a son/daughter' (cant remember the exext words) so Blizz make it a 12+ at least. I am a member of the clan eXe and even cast for them, they are not aware of my exect age but have some idea that i am young. I am real ID friends with multiple adults on B.net who are aware of my age. No one ahs ever described me as annoying.
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As far as I know even if they let you play and you win, they can't legally pay you. So why allow someone to enter that can't really win?
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Not to be a party pooper, but is there any 13/14 y/o actually playing this game at a high level? I know there are some 16 y/o's in korea, but 13-14 years old? Would it really matter?
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The line has be drawn somewhere. If your making a tournament, with no lines at all, it will be way to much work, way to many risk, way to much waste of time. So basicly its just a filter, that filters out alot of dirt, but ofcourse it also filters a tiny bit of the good stuff, but the gain is just WAY bigger. So my advice is, chill, live with it, and in the end realise it doesnt matter.
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What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence.
the only way people are going to find out your age is if you wave it around like it matters
if you have any issue with that it's your own fault and you're one of those people that make young players look bad lol... (for example by starting this thread)
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On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
The game is 16+ to buy not to play to ensure children have permission from parents to play a violent game. It is perfectly legal for any age to play Sc2
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On June 26 2011 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:
the only way people are going to find out your age is if you wave it around like it matters
if you have any issue with that it's your own fault and you're one of those people that make young players look bad lol... (for example by starting this thread)
haha win<3
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As a kid you are still growing and a lot of times you will find you "outgrow" your interests. I've seen many players who could have been the next Flash, but none of them continued playing. It's always girls, graduation, moving to college, partying, other things that take their focus away. And I'm not going to force a kid to play sc2 if it means sacrificing these things.
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On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
in the US its T for Teen and 13 is thirTEEN sooooo he's fine please do a little research mate, ESRB ratings are letters based on rough age groups not specific ages like PEGI
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On June 26 2011 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence. the only way people are going to find out your age is if you wave it around like it matters if you have any issue with that it's your own fault and you're one of those people that make young players look bad lol... (for example by starting this thread)
It's wrong to stand up for my beliefs? I know this thread is worthless, it will do nothing to change how the system works. I'm just pointing out how I'd like things to be one day. It's just a thought stimulating topic. Nothing to do with waving around flags.
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I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win
Please stay in school. Also, make it your priority. StarCraft should come second.
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Also, for the team thing, it is important that gaming teams are not only about the game. You also hang out in chats and stuff, and there are just a lot of things that you should not say when children are around. So if you have children on your team, you have to watch out for what you say all the time, which is annoying and can easily be avoided by not having children on your team.
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On June 26 2011 05:32 rushz0rz wrote:Please stay in school. Also, make it your priority. StarCraft should come second.
But he could be the next Flash for SC2!
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On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
ESRB ratings aren't rules lol they're guidelines. Your 1 year old could play starcraft 2 if the parents allowed it.
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I agree with the OP.
If it's just for tournaments it's ok. no show = freewin anyways
Keep it up little guy
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As many have already said, regarding joining teams, it's just more reliable to have an 18+ team because they make their own choices. At 13 years, you are entirely dependent on your parents.
Also, competitive SC2 can be a heavy emotional burden at times, and generally 13 year olds are not as well equipped to handle the pressure as older people are. I'm not saying you're the stereotypical 13 year old or anything, but basically the teams you apply to have no reason to think you're not.
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I would think it's a mixture of maturity and legal issues.
It's certainly not to say that kids can't be as good as their older opponents.
Just wait until your older?
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On June 26 2011 04:03 Gheed wrote:
Easier to just say 18+ and prevent any potential legal problems. That, and most kids are annoying even if they don't realize it.
This. Kids are either dicks or too polite (and thus also annoying).
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On June 26 2011 05:32 rushz0rz wrote:Please stay in school. Also, make it your priority. StarCraft should come second.
Haha, thank you for worrying but I'm very dedicated to my studies, I took the SAT in 6th grade so I should be fine.
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On June 26 2011 04:50 Nagisa. wrote:
I can't really respond to all of the posts but I do know, eighteen8 I don't think this thread was made about what you should be doing with your life when your 13.
About the legality and stuff, this is probably the best point out there, and I have to say it's not exactly a hassle, if you were given a situation where you had a top 5 player but you wouldn't recruit him because he had to get his parents to sign his contracts. I don't think you'd deny it would you?
Again, I mentioned the generalization in the OP. Here's something for you, many people I talk to (any age) think that asians are just smarter than Americans. Asians are #1 in Math globally, but does that mean the generalization is correct? No. The reason for that is because you can't just say oh this group of people are better or worse than this group of people. Just like you can't say all kids are immature, sure if you did a study I bet you'd find the majority of kids are immature/annoying. But the exceptions outweight the majority, since the exceptions can turn into something truly great. I.e. pokebunny, flash started at 15? I think? People start from somewhere you shouldn't shut them down before they have a chance.
Hate is a sensationalist word first off. Second please truly read v1dom's post, it addresses every relevant point you need to have. Parents, legal issues, being in school (which draws away from the commitment you need to be even relevant in the pro scene at all) all contribute to the burden of a team to take you on.
If you're just stating that people troll you because you are thirteen on the internet...well that's the internet, don't wave around your age?
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On June 26 2011 05:19 EmilA wrote:
Not to be a party pooper, but is there any 13/14 y/o actually playing this game at a high level? I know there are some 16 y/o's in korea, but 13-14 years old? Would it really matter?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Baby
Getting signed on fox at 12 years old.
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Like I stated one of the main problems is the team, I can't practice macro games I get all'ined 95% of my ladder games, It'd be really great to play with a group of people who are on consistently.
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Hey OP and other underagers,
I thought I might pipe in and offer general guidelines that are used in the music industry to help give an additional legal sense to this discussion. I'm going to be either quoting (and mainly paraphrasing) from my legal guidebook (This Business of Music, 10th ed.). There are a number of things that can be an issue when trying to work with a minor:
1) Unless a contract involves the necessities of life--food, clothing, housing-- a minor can void an agreement within a reasonable period of time after reaching the age of maturity (accepting more duties or payment after reaching the age of maturity, or providing written notice, can ratify the agreement, now making it binding to the minor party after reaching the age of maturity). The other party cannot avoid its contractual obligations to the minor. No particular pattern or procedure is needed for the minor to disaffirm/void an agreement other than (usually) to provide written notice that they are voiding the agreement because of their status as a minor (infancy).
2) Financial risk, where the minor may repudiate their agreement. For example, a minor fraudulently misrepresents their age; there unfortunately won't be sufficient legal grounds to enforce a contract or collect damages from the minor for breaching the contract. The entire risk in dealing with the minor is placed on the other party.
I'm not sure how this works in other countries, but in the US
3) Court approval is required for contractual agreements with a minor. In NY, there are three requirements for approval: a) fairness to the minor; b) term may not extend beyond statutory limits (3 years maximum, under certain circumstances, 7 years); c) minor's parents or guardian must consent.
At the court hearing, which is mandatory, the minor must be present, where a legal guardian (usually a parent) is assigned to collect and save the earnings on behalf of the minor, in addition to usually assigning an attorney ad litem who will review the agreement and determine its fairness to the minor. Additionally, the contract must ensure the well-being of the minor, or it will not be approved.
4) States all have different laws regarding contracts with minors, further complicating contracts, including when the minor lives in a separate state or country. (Some states, such as NY, won't allow a minor to break a contract because of infancy, as described above).
5) Because the vast majority of minors will not honor an agreement, and because the party seeking a contract with the minor will have to pay expensive legal fees in addition to the other liabilities a minor presents in order to obtain a contract, it is actually suggested for most companies, and especially small companies (for example, an eSports team with little money) to NEVER pursue a contract with a minor.
6) In some states, it is possible to have parents or guardians be liable for contract breaches by the minor, likely costing the parent or guarding extremely large sums for damages.
Hope that helps.
edit: edited for grammar and spelling errors.
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Pretend you are 16+ or something, and just have a really young sounding voice for your age. It works for one of my friends who lives near Washington DC....
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"I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+"
When money is involved, you must be 16+ or at leaste that's the law in Belgium, i don't know what's the law in your counrty. Admins just take action to prevent lawsuits, end of the story.
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Yeah, it sucks. Just wait a few years and then shit on the 13 year olds. That's what growing into a man is all about.
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On June 26 2011 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence. the only way people are going to find out your age is if you wave it around like it matters if you have any issue with that it's your own fault and you're one of those people that make young players look bad lol... (for example by starting this thread)
That's not true. At all.
It is not always the OP's choice to disclose his age. Tournaments, as he stated, require that competitors disclose his age. To define 'waving one's age around' as disclosing a fact in a mandatory form seems... not foolish, per se, but meaningless. Being barred entry because he truthfully filled out a form - especially when in all other aspects he considers himself competent - reasonably raises concern. Tournaments asked what age he was and barred his entry. Most clans and teams won't consider him because of his age, which he discloses because they demand it, not because he demands all know about his age.
The 4Kings gent explained it quite eloquently, his reasoning was both sound and just, and his explanation was quite enlightening. Please do not mistake me for one criticizing the equity of the current policies of tournaments and clans. The policies do make sense on a large scale.
The OP may well be one of the exceptions that defies the otherwise sound reasoning for these tournaments. Now he knows why there is so much distrust toward youths and the reasoning behind them. Now he knows what he needs to be to prompt teams to break their policies for him.
'lol' indeed.
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If you really were a child prodigy, you would just lie about your age, win the tournament and then reveal your "secret".
Its the internet, no one knows the real age of the person sitting behind the computer screen.
How old do you think I am? 16? 26? 56? Guess what, you can't know for sure!
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On June 26 2011 05:38 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:32 rushz0rz wrote:I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win Please stay in school. Also, make it your priority. StarCraft should come second. Haha, thank you for worrying but I'm very dedicated to my studies, I took the SAT in 6th grade so I should be fine.
Haha, what? If you're smart enough to take the SAT in 6th grade, you'd be smart enough to realize that making this thread is a mistake, and won't go anywhere because it's very clear why age limits exist in these things.
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On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2.
What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence.
Same thing with teams, I can't practice against anyone or join a team JUST BECAUSE I'm not 13, the common response is, "We don't want to take the risk." What risk? I don't see any harm in trying me out, but just because I'm a certain age means that I cant even TRY? My voice isn't that high, the problem here is that teenagers or people under 16 HAVE PROVEN - Gosu.Pokebunny that they can compete. (Much respect to you) Everyone ravels at Pokebunny with words such as, a child prodigy, amazing, how can you do this at such a young age, and yet when ever another "child prodigy" tries to step in the scene hes immediately shot down.
I am sorry if this is generalizing people, but this is what I have seen in my days of SC2 so thanks for reading guys and I hope you have a g'day.
I'll leave you with the, Why do kids get the hate? question that I started it all off with.
I completely agree with the stigma that comes with players under 16, I know this as I've played games for over 8 years online (I'm 16 now) and yes it probably should change. On a side note though, being ranked 1400 Master League on NA is worlds apart from a GSL win.
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On June 26 2011 05:54 RHMVNovus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence. the only way people are going to find out your age is if you wave it around like it matters if you have any issue with that it's your own fault and you're one of those people that make young players look bad lol... (for example by starting this thread) That's not true. At all. It is not always the OP's choice to disclose his age. Tournaments, as he stated, require that competitors disclose his age. To define 'waving one's age around' as disclosing a fact in a mandatory form seems... not foolish, per se, but meaningless. Being barred entry because he truthfully filled out a form - especially when in all other aspects he considers himself competent - reasonably raises concern. Tournaments asked what age he was and barred his entry. Most clans and teams won't consider him because of his age, which he discloses because they demand it, not because he demands all know about his age. The 4Kings gent explained it quite eloquently, his reasoning was both sound and just, and his explanation was quite enlightening. Please do not mistake me for one criticizing the equity of the current policies of tournaments and clans. The policies do make sense on a large scale. The OP may well be one of the exceptions that defies the otherwise sound reasoning for these tournaments. Now he knows why there is so much distrust toward youths and the reasoning behind them. Now he knows what he needs to be to prompt teams to break their policies for him. 'lol' indeed.
I was not addressing the tournament part of his post at all because it's utter bs. Not only did I compete in said tournaments, I was also invited to them while under 18 lol. There are practically no tournaments that ask for your age and I've only had that problem one time.
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On June 26 2011 03:58 Nagisa. wrote:
Hello Warrice,
There are plenty of people that no-show due to their jobs like a sudden-call up. I don't agree with the, anything could happen before a match statement, because there are LOTS of people have things happen before a match. 18 above and below are the same.
I have to agree. I find it amusing that we're putting all these protocols in place now. We never had these silly rules in place back in BW. I used to help manage several teams and I always looking for young talent. I remember when Inc and the like were just toddlers.
-_-
Let the kids fucking play.
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If the foreign scene was serious about e-sports there would be "places" for you to train. Real sports have training infrastructure for the young.
I guess the problem is nobody with the time or skill has created a Junior team environment. It would actually be very easy to arrange online. You play online with other young people under the supervision of coaches who help you refine your play. You get show-match series against others of similar talent, etc Maybe even national jr. teams.
It would be cool if one of the major teams took this on and developed players, but its just not in their interest for reasons stated in this post, and the fact the player could move on once successful basically wasting all the time the team put into them.
As far as I'm concerned 13 is a perfect age to be developing talent. Its just not the perfect age to be on an adult team given all the reasons in the posts above.
Good luck to you. I suggest you get a mentor and work from there. Get good enough and they won't be able to ignore you.
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Yeah I think it really comes down to legal issues. Maturity isn't much of a factor because SC2 is mostly 1v1 and voice communication is optional.
However, depending upon which state/nation the tournament is hosted, there are child labor laws that make it a hassle to legally contract and award minors with monetary compensation. So it's not like the SC2 community is somehow discriminating against minors, instead its the western legal system in general. Korea has a completely different culture and legal system which is why you'll see 15 year olds like Leenock in the GSL.
Go watch day9daily 100, where Day9 describes what it was like participating in his first WCG when he was still in high school. The only reason it worked was because his mom went with him to the tournament. I'm sure team managers don't want to deal with the extra hassle of chaperoning minors at hectic events like MLG/Dreamhack.
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Why not just not tell people your age? The thing with Pokebunny is he proved to be amazing player and never worried about what people said about his age because he proved it with his gameplay.
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The OP seems to be constructed with maturity and direction; I also shared similar experiences at a younger age when I was a better CS 1.6 player. Age-based generalizations will always hinder reasonable young people, simply because so many young people are intolerable in a competitive atmosphere. I would suggest finding some older practice partners at master level and then allow them to introduce you to teams/tournaments under their word (representing you as a mature individual).
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Well, I'm not sure what to post here really. I guess it is just the stereotype that have been made over a few year. I've had several bad experiences with young people online and not as many good ones.
If I'm at a LAN where there are young kids, they all treat me with respect, and they do get cocky towards me, if I'm cocky towards them. They sort of sort people through who can take jokes in real life, and who can't. I am sure that none of them would ever be rude in real life unless they have been given a reason to.
Woah! This became quite a long post. The only advice i can give really is to suck it up. Get yourself a "friend group" that you get along good with. Try to see if some of the mods can help you search for a team/group through teamliquid.net somehow. I am not entirely sure.
If it does not work, wait 3 years
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Russian Federation89 Posts
Once you get older, you will look back on your life decisions and realize every year how much an idiot you once were. People that grow up and mature will have this experience. It doesn't go away for some time.
If you in fact have so much free time, you should be able to practice and gain respect through your ability to play the game. You don't need a team or practice partners to mass games and straighten out your basic game mechanics. Strategy and builds is a different story, but with pure mechanics and a few solid builds (that you don't need to create with the amount of resources at your disposal) you will be able to hit a level of play that will gain you the respect necessary from others to actually practice with you. This game, as all other games, is about how good you are as a player. Look at Naniwa, he massed a ridiculous amounts of games on ladder and got his mechanics in order. He gained respect of players and now primarily practices exclusively in custom games.
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"I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect..."
Do you really think you get all the hate just because you're young? If you are being well mannered and mature people will eventually stop bothering you because you're young, you're saying you're fixing the attitude problems, but with the history of even getting banned for dis-respect, you might be in for a tough race.
I've had a lot of experiences with kids, or I guess; young teenagers, around your age, in games. I don't have anything against different ages at all, but it's a fact that there are a lot of immature kids, obviously.
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On June 26 2011 05:43 Nagisa. wrote:
Like I stated one of the main problems is the team, I can't practice macro games I get all'ined 95% of my ladder games, It'd be really great to play with a group of people who are on consistently.
It's not exactly the same, but I ran a WoW guild for a couple of years. We had players who were 13 or 14 years old and generally the biggest problem we had with them was that they'd be in the middle of something and announce that their parents had demanded they leave the computer. Even if they personally wished to be reliable members of our group, it was impossible to account for what their family would demand of them.
In addition, while they were often very good players and quite reasonable in the moment, over the long run the people I encountered who were 13 or 14 had serious maturity issues that got in the way of doing what we were trying to do. They complained about negative feedback when things weren't going well, they didn't exercise self control with joking around when it was time to be serious, that kind of thing.
The one, single exception was a girl who was 14 when she was with us. Her dad was a leader in the guild. Her behavior was completely exemplary, but I have to imagine that it made a difference to have a parent who was participating alongside her.
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Well im 14 too and about top200 eu and as v1dom says its alot about maturity and legal issues it really sucks but if you proove you god a stable attitude and behave good youll get into a team even with age limits, just act your best =)
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Legal issues with minors is a big thing. Not only that, the vast majority of kids are extremely immature. The occasional exception doesn't usually warrant all of the bullshit people have to deal with by letting a bunch of pre-teens play.
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On June 26 2011 04:17 v1dom wrote:
As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For every one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Edit: If you are the second in a million, with top grandmaster talent, a stable attitude (unlikely since you've admitted you've bad mannered in the recent past), parents who are completely understanding and supporting of your hobby, and willing to discuss year-long legal contracts, which will bind their 13 year old son to what amounts essentially to a close-to-full-time job, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Domino
4Kings
Quoted because this should be /thread.
There are a ton of legal issues for team managers to consider, you'd have to really stand out from the crowd (like Pokebunny) to get considered at your age.
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this is like asking why is there a drinking and smoking age <.<
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Yes op every tournament is 13+ or 16+ because the tournament organizers hate you because of your age. =/
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You aren't good enough to win any major tournaments, so why not just enter minor ones (craftcup, etc) and lie about your age? Who would possibly know?
Assuming you are as mature as you claim, you are unlikely to cause harm to anyone, as you will attend your matches and provide good games, given your skill.
Just keep practicing and keep getting better. If you become freakishly good by 15+, I'm sure you will find your way into a team/sponsorship irregardless of legal issues. But, you would have to become FREAKISHLY good. But who knows how much more developed the e-sports scene will be a few years from now?
There is a tone of urgency in your posts. What is the rush? You're 13! That's so young! You have all the time in the world. You can improve plenty quickly outside of tournaments.
Make friends, meet people, and get dedicated and serious practice partners. Prove to them that you are stable, can take losses, and offer insight. If you want to be a pro some day, you are already on the right track, but there is really no real reason to rush tournament entry, at your age.
Just keep getting better.
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Young teens forget that we were all once their age at one point. Do they not realize that we went through the same problems? We used to also all think that we were mature. In ten years you'll look back and realize you were just some little kid and move on.
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On June 26 2011 06:08 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:54 RHMVNovus wrote:On June 26 2011 05:20 KawaiiRice wrote:What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence. the only way people are going to find out your age is if you wave it around like it matters if you have any issue with that it's your own fault and you're one of those people that make young players look bad lol... (for example by starting this thread) That's not true. At all. It is not always the OP's choice to disclose his age. Tournaments, as he stated, require that competitors disclose his age. To define 'waving one's age around' as disclosing a fact in a mandatory form seems... not foolish, per se, but meaningless. Being barred entry because he truthfully filled out a form - especially when in all other aspects he considers himself competent - reasonably raises concern. Tournaments asked what age he was and barred his entry. Most clans and teams won't consider him because of his age, which he discloses because they demand it, not because he demands all know about his age. The 4Kings gent explained it quite eloquently, his reasoning was both sound and just, and his explanation was quite enlightening. Please do not mistake me for one criticizing the equity of the current policies of tournaments and clans. The policies do make sense on a large scale. The OP may well be one of the exceptions that defies the otherwise sound reasoning for these tournaments. Now he knows why there is so much distrust toward youths and the reasoning behind them. Now he knows what he needs to be to prompt teams to break their policies for him. 'lol' indeed. I was not addressing the tournament part of his post at all because it's utter bs. Not only did I compete in said tournaments, I was also invited to them while under 18 lol. There are practically no tournaments that ask for your age and I've only had that problem one time.
I dunno I've had the problem quite a few times.
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On June 26 2011 06:21 Crystal368 wrote:Show nested quote +"I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect..." Do you really think you get all the hate just because you're young? If you are being well mannered and mature people will eventually stop bothering you because you're young, you're saying you're fixing the attitude problems, but with the history of even getting banned for dis-respect, you might be in for a tough race. I've had a lot of experiences with kids, or I guess; young teenagers, around your age, in games. I don't have anything against different ages at all, but it's a fact that there are a lot of immature kids, obviously.
Excuse me, I said I have made a lot of mistakes, you have probably made thousands of more mistakes seeing as how you are much older than me. We all make mistakes, I didn't say, I flame on a regular basis and I'm always immature. I said I have made mistakes. Thank you.
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On June 26 2011 06:43 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:21 Crystal368 wrote:"I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect..." Do you really think you get all the hate just because you're young? If you are being well mannered and mature people will eventually stop bothering you because you're young, you're saying you're fixing the attitude problems, but with the history of even getting banned for dis-respect, you might be in for a tough race. I've had a lot of experiences with kids, or I guess; young teenagers, around your age, in games. I don't have anything against different ages at all, but it's a fact that there are a lot of immature kids, obviously. Excuse me, I said I have made a lot of mistakes, you have probably made thousands of more mistakes seeing as how you are much older than me. We all make mistakes, I didn't say, I flame on a regular basis and I'm always immature. I said I have made mistakes. Thank you.
It only takes one time to confirm a stereotype. Once that happens, good luck getting away from it.
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the only thing the OP has said about his parents is that they are rich.
that's great, but do they support your passion for gaming? i'm pretty sure there was a really young player at MLG Columbus. PokeBunny did really well there also. i'd suggest you try to get to an MLG and experience it for yourself, and show your parents what you're into and how good you are at it.
basically, instead of soapbox ranting about society or gaming organizations on an online video game forum, you should talk to your parents.
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The way you speak about maturity probably shows how immature you really are. The fact you were banned for disrespect at such a young age, an age where the older people amongst us didn't even dare to open their mouths, sort to speak, not even on the internet, also says a lot.
I'm not saying anything regarding your skills, but you just have to accept the fact that someone with as limited life experience as you just isn't mature. I can understand that a lot of clans want people who are on the same level of communication as the rest of the team.
For older people young gamers more look like this http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6543764/black-ops-freak-out than anything else (i'm not saying you are like that).
It's ok to have dreams but there are so much blind kids with too much time on their hands just banging their heads against a wall, taking things to serious for their age.
I guess you'll understand when you get older
+ Show Spoiler +jkjk
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Oh, well... first of all, this problem wouldn't have happened in Broodwar, simply because that game wasn't played by youngsters due to its tremendous complexity (I'm not saying there weren't immature idiots though).
Second of all, although it seems harsh, there's nothing you can do but nurture your skill and just hit the world hard when you're 13. And PLEASE, do not forget there's also a real world beyond the video game you excel in.
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On June 26 2011 04:15 BronzeKnee wrote:
It comes down to maturity and responsibility. One might think their parents can drive them, but something comes up, and then they miss a match or two. People not showing up really plagues tourneys, and inviting people under 18 is inviting these kinds of issues, and I saw this first hand with a few players in the New England Starcraft 2 League.
Pokebunny got knocked out of MLG because he was late for his match. Perhaps if had double checked his schedule he wouldn't have been knocked out like that, and that is something you learn overtime in life. He won't make that mistake again I am sure, but it is too bad he wasn't 26 and didn't learn that earlier in life, when it may not have mattered as much.
So did Catz. people keep acting like one bad kid means every underage kid is going to cause problems. the fact is that people of all ages are going to miss matches, have things come up, be irresponsible, etc. age is just something easy to point to and be like "Aha! That's the reason!"
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I understand citing legal issues as the reason for this kid's situation. Financial problems/team management/legality and liability/parental authority/availability are all valid reasons (basically everything v1dom said).
I don't see why this has turned into a matter of maturity. He's right in saying that people who are older aren't necessarily more mature. And I don't really understand why some people are talking about life experience, holding a job, interacting with others, having a great personality, paying rent, etc. considering we're talking about a kid who is asking for a little more respect due to his skills in a computer game. Also, what's with the people saying that people under 16 are more annoying or have irritating voices? Do people stop being annoying later? And is a person's voice that big of a deal? And are either of those matters relevant? lol
But for the OP, don't look at this as a problem. I'm a few years older than you and I wish that I was as highly ranked, and expect you'll be much higher in a couple of years (damn you and your talent lol). You have a bright future with this game. Be optimistic and practice and you'll find success in a couple of years.
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On June 26 2011 06:43 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:21 Crystal368 wrote:"I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect..." Do you really think you get all the hate just because you're young? If you are being well mannered and mature people will eventually stop bothering you because you're young, you're saying you're fixing the attitude problems, but with the history of even getting banned for dis-respect, you might be in for a tough race. I've had a lot of experiences with kids, or I guess; young teenagers, around your age, in games. I don't have anything against different ages at all, but it's a fact that there are a lot of immature kids, obviously. Excuse me, I said I have made a lot of mistakes, you have probably made thousands of more mistakes seeing as how you are much older than me. We all make mistakes, I didn't say, I flame on a regular basis and I'm always immature. I said I have made mistakes. Thank you.
Crystal does have a genuine point. It's great that you changed your attitude on manner, but your reply shows immaturity (at least to me):
"you have probably made thousands of more mistakes seeing as how you are much older than me"
No need to be so defensive... it wasn't a malicious comment imo.
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When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't.
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imo, there is no reason kids shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments.
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If you think you can do well and play for a team, you should go play in MLGs. Good performance can overcome most barriers, including age. Thats how a lot of pro get on their teams
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I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that.
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On June 26 2011 06:54 Strike_ wrote:
When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't.
QFT
I was mad that I wasn't allowed to vote (election) at that age, thought I was very mature, and got frustrated at age requirements. When you actually get older, you'll realize you weren't at all mature, I sure wasn't qualified to make an informed decision on a federal election. We were all your age, don't forget that.
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Others have covered the legal/financial issues, so I'll look at another aspect: Physical/Mental Capability.
Kids are still growing and when it comes to high-level sports, they simply lack the physical prowess to perform at the highest levels. The only sports I can immediately think of that people under 18 could actually compete at the highest levels on a consistent basis are:
-Women's Gymnastics
-Women's Figure Skating
-Women's Tennis (kinda)
-Women's Golf (?)
EVERY OTHER SPORT sees its best performances from people of adult age. Youngsters don't stand a chance in hell because sports generally require a high degree of physical prowess. Kids and young teens are still growing, and if they went up against full adults they would get destroyed.
Now SC2 isn't quite like something like Football or Basketball, but there is still a very high physical component to competing at the highest levels. I doubt any 13 year old could push out constant 400 APM (without spamming) for a BoX. Not to mention that at that age, your brain is still developing and hasn't reached its full potential. Basically youngsters would be physically and mentally outmatched in every game they play. This handicap is large enough that its extremely unlikely someone that's underage could make it to the top. Now, hypothetically there could be some freak of nature that has the physical and mental capabilities at that young age to compete with the best of the best. But it's probably more likely to be from women's SC2.
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Was likely the same for me in BW. As far as tours with prices are concerned (even like 10€) the tour hosts have to make sure that you're able to do online banking.
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When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't.
On June 26 2011 06:59 daemir wrote:
I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that.
Why is that relevant? Whether or not he is mature, and whether or not he thinks he's mature, the only thing that should bar him from a tournament are legal issues. Who cares what he's like in real life if he can get good results? Do we need to have each participant in a tournament take a personality test to evaluate their maturity?
Didn't Idra say something like "This isn't a dating show, it's a computer game. Personality shouldn't matter."
Everybody in this thread does realize we're just talking about a computer game right? Not sure how much life experience he needs to drop some marauders in his opponent's main...
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IDK if this has been mentioned before but if I remeber correctly, SC2 is 16+. Technically it would be illegal to let you compete.
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At 13 your brain is far from fully developed. You can't know how mature you are, because if you could, then you'd be mature. The greatest majority are immature, which means their decision making tends to err on the faulty side (not saying whether it's with intent or not), not knowing how to behave in public, not being able to control their impulses, etc. That would change in the teens, and at around 18-20 you should be a fully formed adult both mentally and physically, so that's when you're allowed to take responsability for yourself.
However, i believe you can have earlier emancipation (16 ?) if you ask for an audition in court with that intent and prove your psychological mind is capable or equal to one of older age.
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On June 26 2011 07:04 Angry_Fetus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:54 Strike_ wrote:
When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't.
QFT I was mad that I wasn't allowed to vote (election) at that age, thought I was very mature, and got frustrated at age requirements. When you actually get older, you'll realize you weren't at all mature, I sure wasn't qualified to make an informed decision on a federal election. We were all your age, don't forget that.
yup, but now I'm old enough to know that my vote doesn't even matter because of where I live, so I only vote on local measures and hope the high schoolers and college kids don't show up to vote on all the crap that raises my local taxes.
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On June 26 2011 07:08 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't. Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:59 daemir wrote:
I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that. Why is that relevant? Whether or not he is mature, and whether or not he thinks he's mature, the only thing that should bar him from a tournament are legal issues. Who cares what he's like in real life if he can get good results? Do we need to have each participant in a tournament take a personality test to evaluate their maturity? Didn't Idra say something like "This isn't a dating show, it's a computer game. Personality shouldn't matter." Everybody in this thread does realize we're just talking about a computer game right? Not sure how much life experience he needs to drop some marauders in his opponent's main...
It's relevant to them because they happened to read the OP. He's also complaining about being on teams at his age. Something you seem to have missed.
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On June 26 2011 07:05 Sevenofnines wrote:
Others have covered the legal/financial issues, so I'll look at another aspect: Physical/Mental Capability.
Kids are still growing and when it comes to high-level sports, they simply lack the physical prowess to perform at the highest levels. The only sports I can immediately think of that people under 18 could actually compete at the highest levels on a consistent basis are:
-Women's Gymnastics
-Women's Figure Skating
-Women's Tennis (kinda)
-Women's Golf (?)
EVERY OTHER SPORT sees its best performances from people of adult age. Youngsters don't stand a chance in hell because sports generally require a high degree of physical prowess. Kids and young teens are still growing, and if they went up against full adults they would get destroyed.
Now SC2 isn't quite like something like Football or Basketball, but there is still a very high physical component to competing at the highest levels. I doubt any 13 year old could push out constant 400 APM (without spamming) for a BoX. Not to mention that at that age, your brain is still developing and hasn't reached its full potential. Basically youngsters would be physically and mentally outmatched in every game they play. This handicap is large enough that its extremely unlikely someone that's underage could make it to the top. Now, hypothetically there could be some freak of nature that has the physical and mental capabilities at that young age to compete with the best of the best. But it's probably more likely to be from women's SC2.
why bother bringing up athletic sports when we're talking about SC2? Flash was 15 when he won his first OSL, and was already a top player at 14.
if you want to talk athletic sports, Ryan Sheckler (pro skater) went pro at 13.
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Agism sucks, doesn't it, OP? People like to think that their years give them wisdom, maturity, and intelligence (and they do, relative to how wise, mature, and intelligent they were to begin with of course) and that all children were as capable and intelligent as they were at X age. And governments love to arbitrarily set legal age limits, so this practice is all too expectable. All you can do is try to contact those running the tournament and demonstrate why you should be an exception to the (bad) rule.
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Unfortunately life is not fair. Sure there are plenty of people who are over 20 and are much less mature than people under 16 but the overwhelming trend is that as a per person gets older they are more mature and thus from any sample of people the older ones will likely be more mature, as such that is the imperfect measure society goes by.
If you want to become a professional gamer it doesn't have to all happen right now. Get your mmr up so that you start hitting pros on the ladder. If they think you're good they might not object to you joining them for practice sessions if you conduct yourself maturely and you don't need a contract to do that. If you're not that good yet there are plenty of non professional teams that you could join for good practice partners to work your way up.
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IDK if this has been mentioned before but if I remeber correctly, SC2 is 16+. Technically it would be illegal to let you compete.
The age rating on games does not mean that it is illigal to play them if you are not of the required age.
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On June 26 2011 07:16 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:08 Darclite wrote:When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't. On June 26 2011 06:59 daemir wrote:
I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that. Why is that relevant? Whether or not he is mature, and whether or not he thinks he's mature, the only thing that should bar him from a tournament are legal issues. Who cares what he's like in real life if he can get good results? Do we need to have each participant in a tournament take a personality test to evaluate their maturity? Didn't Idra say something like "This isn't a dating show, it's a computer game. Personality shouldn't matter." Everybody in this thread does realize we're just talking about a computer game right? Not sure how much life experience he needs to drop some marauders in his opponent's main... It's relevant to them because they happened to read the OP. He's also complaining about being on teams at his age. Something you seem to have missed.
Okay..don't really know what you're saying, I read the OP twice.
Why is his maturity that big of a deal for his team other than for legal reasons? If he is a good practice partner, then I don't care how mature he is. If I ran a team and found a promising younger player (barring legal issues) I wouldn't say to myself "He'll probably be great in a couple of years, but he's probably childish because some 13 year olds are, so forget it." He said in the OP that his problems stem from people that assume that he is very immature, which he doesn't appear to be (maybe to some extent, but he's better than many 18 year olds I know).
If I didn't address what you meant, sorry, I don't really know what you meant. I said that his personality shouldn't matter considering it is just a computer game, why it would be relevant to a tournament organizer or a team leader is a mystery to me.
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On June 26 2011 07:29 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:16 holynorth wrote:On June 26 2011 07:08 Darclite wrote:When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't. On June 26 2011 06:59 daemir wrote:
I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that. Why is that relevant? Whether or not he is mature, and whether or not he thinks he's mature, the only thing that should bar him from a tournament are legal issues. Who cares what he's like in real life if he can get good results? Do we need to have each participant in a tournament take a personality test to evaluate their maturity? Didn't Idra say something like "This isn't a dating show, it's a computer game. Personality shouldn't matter." Everybody in this thread does realize we're just talking about a computer game right? Not sure how much life experience he needs to drop some marauders in his opponent's main... It's relevant to them because they happened to read the OP. He's also complaining about being on teams at his age. Something you seem to have missed. Okay..don't really know what you're saying, I read the OP twice. Why is his maturity that big of a deal for his team other than for legal reasons? If he is a good practice partner, then I don't care how mature he is. If I ran a team and found a promising younger player (barring legal issues) I wouldn't say to myself "He'll probably be great in a couple of years, but he's probably childish because some 13 year olds are, so forget it." He said in the OP that his problems stem from people that assume that he is very immature, which he doesn't appear to be (maybe to some extent, but he's better than many 18 year olds I know). If I didn't address what you meant, sorry, I don't really know what you meant. I said that his personality shouldn't matter considering it is just a computer game, why it would be relevant to a tournament organizer or a team leader is a mystery to me.
Teams are often more than just practice partners. You spend time together, you play together nonstop, you work together, you become friends. Ever worked at a job with a person that you just can't stand? It makes the job less enjoyable. Now I am not saying that this is true for every young player, but it is the problem that people are referring to.
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At least it's not impossible. It's not like its as difficult as it was for women to vote in the 1800's. As many posters above have stated... show your maturity through patience. I know its frustrating to have to go through extra barriers JUST because of your age.. but in reality the reasons that you have to go through them make sense. As SilverJohnny said... most organizers would rather make an exception than allow all 13 year olds in as a general rule. It makes sense and I am sure most the community would agree that the typical 13 year old can not handle the responsibilities of an adult in this ever evolving esports world.
Note: I didn't have a chance to see what your "disclaimer" was referencing.... but maybe your previous actions were less than exemplary and this is something to consider in seeing how most general rules are made.
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Don't take it personally, the internet is a wasteland of hate and trolls. It doesn't matter who you are, someones gonna talk shit. As far as joining teams, I'm on a team that I love. We started out as a loose group of friends who did some of our own tournaments against one another. We formed a team and everyone gets along. We all talk shit to each other and just have fun. We've all improved greatly since forming a team. Mostly everyone is masters now, when we started only 1 of us was. But we don't discriminate, I'd let a 10 year old join if he was pretty good, had a good attitude and just hung out with us a lot. Don't let it get you down bro, just get good and if you can't find a team, find some good friends and form one. The best way to start a team is to keep it as simple as possible. We have no structure within the team, we are all just good friends who play each other every day and discuss strategy. We just have 1 guy who is the leader. He got the vent and just got us a site, and we don't actually have a single written rule for our team. None are needed. We don't recruit, if someone starts playing with us every day for a while and everything is smooth, someone will just be like "tag up bro"
If you are wanting to be a pro, don't think you have to get on EG tomorrow to make that happen. It is understood on our team that if anyone ever jumps ship to join a better team, we will just wish them well and continue to support them. So just get on a team and with other people who's goal is to get as good as possible and enter a bunch of tourneys. If you or some people on your team start showing results, you will probably start rubbing shoulders with better and better people. Maybe even get on a high level team. It takes time and dedication.
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On June 26 2011 07:32 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:29 Darclite wrote:On June 26 2011 07:16 holynorth wrote:On June 26 2011 07:08 Darclite wrote:When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't. On June 26 2011 06:59 daemir wrote:
I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that. Why is that relevant? Whether or not he is mature, and whether or not he thinks he's mature, the only thing that should bar him from a tournament are legal issues. Who cares what he's like in real life if he can get good results? Do we need to have each participant in a tournament take a personality test to evaluate their maturity? Didn't Idra say something like "This isn't a dating show, it's a computer game. Personality shouldn't matter." Everybody in this thread does realize we're just talking about a computer game right? Not sure how much life experience he needs to drop some marauders in his opponent's main... It's relevant to them because they happened to read the OP. He's also complaining about being on teams at his age. Something you seem to have missed. Okay..don't really know what you're saying, I read the OP twice. Why is his maturity that big of a deal for his team other than for legal reasons? If he is a good practice partner, then I don't care how mature he is. If I ran a team and found a promising younger player (barring legal issues) I wouldn't say to myself "He'll probably be great in a couple of years, but he's probably childish because some 13 year olds are, so forget it." He said in the OP that his problems stem from people that assume that he is very immature, which he doesn't appear to be (maybe to some extent, but he's better than many 18 year olds I know). If I didn't address what you meant, sorry, I don't really know what you meant. I said that his personality shouldn't matter considering it is just a computer game, why it would be relevant to a tournament organizer or a team leader is a mystery to me. Teams are often more than just practice partners. You spend time together, you play together nonstop, you work together, you become friends. Ever worked at a job with a person that you just can't stand? It makes the job less enjoyable. Now I am not saying that this is true for every young player, but it is the problem that people are referring to.
But shouldn't this be determined by his actual personality than some vague stereotype about 13 year olds? And perhaps that is a bonus about being on a team, but I think that the focus should be on practicing. Perhaps he won't become anyone's new best friend, but as long as he doesn't do anything unforgivably annoying, then I don't see why they'd have a problem with him. And they certainly can get rid of him relatively easily if they don't want him on the team.
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Hi there,
I've been in that situation when I was younger. I was playing Counter Strike Source at that time and was 14 years old. So I understand what you feel.
But I persevered. Stayed on the server, showed my skill, my maturity and my dedication. The first time I explicitly asked to join the reaction of the clan was very negative. As time went by they got to know me beter over time and eventually, I got in. Not everybody was 100% happy about it, but they agreed to give it a shot. We had a great time, I learned alot from the older guys and I can say it was very learnfull experience. Practicing, playing matches, learning the true power of teamwork. It also gave my English level a great boost as it's not my mother tongue. The main thing is, I never complained, I kept my mouth shut and watched my steps very closely.
You should do the same. Don't complain, watch your steps and don't make posts over it.
If you don't get accepted in a team, try another one. Don't get frustrated or disapointed because people turned you down. Keep playing and enjoying the game, if you are really as good as you think you are (not saying you aren't), there will be doors opening for you at some point.
Big succes!
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On June 26 2011 07:45 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:32 holynorth wrote:On June 26 2011 07:29 Darclite wrote:On June 26 2011 07:16 holynorth wrote:On June 26 2011 07:08 Darclite wrote:When I was 13 I also thought that I was extremely smart and mature for my age.
I wasn't. On June 26 2011 06:59 daemir wrote:
I know it's pretty tough at that age to put yourself in other's shoes, but we were that age at one point too, we were all very mature and bright people and all that.
10-15 years roll by and you look back and you'll notice things perhaps weren't quite like that. Why is that relevant? Whether or not he is mature, and whether or not he thinks he's mature, the only thing that should bar him from a tournament are legal issues. Who cares what he's like in real life if he can get good results? Do we need to have each participant in a tournament take a personality test to evaluate their maturity? Didn't Idra say something like "This isn't a dating show, it's a computer game. Personality shouldn't matter." Everybody in this thread does realize we're just talking about a computer game right? Not sure how much life experience he needs to drop some marauders in his opponent's main... It's relevant to them because they happened to read the OP. He's also complaining about being on teams at his age. Something you seem to have missed. Okay..don't really know what you're saying, I read the OP twice. Why is his maturity that big of a deal for his team other than for legal reasons? If he is a good practice partner, then I don't care how mature he is. If I ran a team and found a promising younger player (barring legal issues) I wouldn't say to myself "He'll probably be great in a couple of years, but he's probably childish because some 13 year olds are, so forget it." He said in the OP that his problems stem from people that assume that he is very immature, which he doesn't appear to be (maybe to some extent, but he's better than many 18 year olds I know). If I didn't address what you meant, sorry, I don't really know what you meant. I said that his personality shouldn't matter considering it is just a computer game, why it would be relevant to a tournament organizer or a team leader is a mystery to me. Teams are often more than just practice partners. You spend time together, you play together nonstop, you work together, you become friends. Ever worked at a job with a person that you just can't stand? It makes the job less enjoyable. Now I am not saying that this is true for every young player, but it is the problem that people are referring to. But shouldn't this be determined by his actual personality than some vague stereotype about 13 year olds? And perhaps that is a bonus about being on a team, but I think that the focus should be on practicing. Perhaps he won't become anyone's new best friend, but as long as he doesn't do anything unforgivably annoying, then I don't see why they'd have a problem with him. And they certainly can get rid of him relatively easily if they don't want him on the team.
It's a bonus that will go a long ways. A team that likes each other will do better.
And stereotypes exist for a reason.
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If you didn't capitalize so much people wouldn't treat you like a small child...
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The fact is that it's easier for everyone involved (except you) to not have to deal with younger kids on their teams, in their tournaments etc. Nobody really cares whether or not it's fair, because it's not like they're missing out on anything by denying underage kids from participating in their events.
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On June 26 2011 07:45 Darclite wrote:
But shouldn't this be determined by his actual personality than some vague stereotype about 13 year olds?
I dunno, should I have had to pay more for my insurance when I was younger because I was male and single? Why didn't they care about my personality and responsibility?
Best thing the OP can do is just take the time and prove that he's not the typical 13 yo. Will that take longer than the avg 18 yo? Yes. Is that fair? Life isn't fair, that's probably the best thing the OP can learn from this. Don't expect people to hand you anything in life, because they won't.
(coming from someone 3x the age of the OP)
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I personally find little kids annoying and hate training with them but tournament wise its in use for different reasons such as many others have said.
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As an adult and father of two I fully support you in your aspirations, OP. I'm sure part of what you're running into is not "hate"' but well-meaning adults who are concerned about the legal responsibility for your activities & well being. However if 13-year-olds can compete professionally in tennis & gymnastics, no reason they shouldn't be able to compete in Starcraft. It's a heck of a lot more healthy than some of the other things teenagers do. Just keep your grades up! ;-).
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United States527 Posts
I definitely support for it to be equal, but it does not matter too much if you are only playing online tournaments and such. I mean, I am young and I play Counter Strike 1.6 competitively on ESEA and the other people on my teams usually don't care about my age because I am good enough for them to not care. So my advice for you, is to just get good enough so it doesn't really matter what your age is. Make them want you to play for them just for exposure and such.
This would take a while to do (for you to get good enough for this to happen), but if you really want it to be fair and such, just do what Jordan "n0thing" Gilbert did and Pokebunny did so it just does not matter your age at all.
Edit: And by "not matter your age at all," I mean generally. It could matter for some things, but you can be an exception and such.
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On June 26 2011 07:58 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:45 Darclite wrote:
But shouldn't this be determined by his actual personality than some vague stereotype about 13 year olds? I dunno, should I have had to pay more for my insurance when I was younger because I was male and single? Why didn't they care about my personality and responsibility?
So playing a computer game = paying for insurance. Got it.
If you read my posts I said that I realize why legal and financial issues matter, I just didn't see why everyone felt he was too immature and wanted to attack his personality (I don't see how maturity affects your Starcraft skill level).
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I'm noticing a trend with the younger players that are in masters or above... they seem to be mostly Terran. hmmmmmm
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The issue with having a 13-year old is that parents decide what you can and can't do, not you. They demand you shut down and stop playing? You have to do it. They demand you stop playing for two weeks due to school? You have to do it.
After running some fairly decent WoW guilds i can say that anyone still in school living at home can't really be trusted with keeping to times or staying online for set amounts of time.
Also no 13-year old boy is mature, however well written you are on forums.
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On June 26 2011 08:14 Prevolved wrote:
I'm noticing a trend with the younger players that are in masters or above... they seem to be mostly Terran. hmmmmmm
Only ones with enough free time to master it, just like the Koreans and their sick practice schedules?
Also, karpo sums it up pretty well, just because you're in masters league doesnt mean I'd see you any way different, you're still a kid along with the immaturity that comes with it (along with not thinking that you're immature at all!!1one)
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On June 26 2011 08:20 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:18 OutlaW- wrote:hai guis im 9 years old n i wanna join mouz wat i do? i no enter tournaments because my mother no allow pls help i want fix my problem im grandmaster so.. yeah ^_^ really? you're so good with only 9? im so jealous, you should definitely keep on playing, good luck in the future! im so jealous, if i were your age id just play nonstop
edit: ok, i admit it. I'm a jelaous fuck whose life is drifting apart after entering early adulthood with no idea what to do, and not enough motivation to keep playing. My point is, if you just keep on playing, you will eventually be good. Ignore the troll above, and learn from my mistakes, I didn't find enough motivation after I was stuck at high masters, now I rarely play. Good luck, kids!
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On June 26 2011 04:49 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:35 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
The points about legality are understandable. The "[most] younger kids are annoying/immature" is just a bad generalization, though. People mistake two different conceptions of maturity which justify this incorrect mindset. Maturity refers to either biological maturity or maturity of character. The former is one people associate the term with, so they automatically assume that the latter is contingent upon that physical age. The problem is that maturity of character actually refers to things like responsibility and things like tact, which most teenagers should have developed. Psychological science, for instance, determines that the human brain develops proper judgment capacity at around 12-14 years of age. Another problem is that there is no clear line in the sand between "an immature kid" and a mature one, so the generalization of all "young kids" fails once again. It's arbitrary to claim that an 18 year old is suddenly more mannered than a 17 year old, and it's just as arbitrary to claim that divide between 2 years of age and so on. The only proper distinction is one of legality. You obviously haven't been around many teenagers, or at least don't have the perspective of an older person looking at them. Most people don't gain any true maturity until they've gotten real world experience, either after high school or college, when they have to support themeselves. I would say that there is a pretty hard line that defines mature or immature. it is; "if this kind had to fend for him/herself for a few months, would he or she have the necessary skills to find a job, keep up on basic responsibilities such as paying the bills, maintaining a healthy diet, being reliable at work and elsewhere, etc. If people are confident that you can do that, than you are mature. If not, you're immature. I would say that pretty much everyone under 16 couldn't do that, both because of character flaws, and because of the current laws and society. Those who can are the clear exception, not the rule. Furthermore, I would say that about half of my peers (i'm 20, most of my friends are 19-25) would not fall under that definition of mature, and I don't think that is very uncommon. immature people are obviously a huge liability for many reasons that have already been stated, and I know that all managers would treat immature people the same, whether they are 13 or 30. The only difference is that if you are younger, you are expected to be immature, which is normal, but that means you just have to work harder to prove otherwise. A mature person would be able to see this, and would understand why this is the case and act accordingly.
You haven't read my post closely enough. Most of the issues about "real world experience" equate to legal boundaries, "basic responsibilities such as paying bills." More importantly though, my second point already directly addresses this: when you say "I would say that about half of my peers (i'm 20, most of my friends are 19-25) would not fall under that definition of mature" that is the exact issue, since people are blaming this immaturity arbitrarily on people under 18 when that identification of this specific age range as "immature" doesn't make any sense when it's just as applicable to 18, 19, and 20 year-olds - it's arbitrary to make that categorical claim on age, so an individualistic basis is the only reasonable one.
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On June 26 2011 08:21 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:20 OutlaW- wrote:On June 26 2011 08:18 OutlaW- wrote:hai guis im 9 years old n i wanna join mouz wat i do? i no enter tournaments because my mother no allow pls help i want fix my problem im grandmaster so.. yeah ^_^ really? you're so good with only 9? im so jealous, you should definitely keep on playing, good luck in the future! im so jealous, if i were your age id just play nonstop edit: ok, i admit it. I'm a jelaous fuck whose life is drifting apart after entering early adulthood with no idea what to do, and not enough motivation to keep playing. My point is, if you just keep on playing, you will eventually be good. Ignore the troll above, and learn from my mistakes, I didn't find enough motivation after I was stuck at high masters, now I rarely play. Good luck, kids!
Did you mean to log on to a different account or something? I think I missed what you were trying to do there.
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On June 26 2011 08:28 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:21 OutlaW- wrote:On June 26 2011 08:20 OutlaW- wrote:On June 26 2011 08:18 OutlaW- wrote:hai guis im 9 years old n i wanna join mouz wat i do? i no enter tournaments because my mother no allow pls help i want fix my problem im grandmaster so.. yeah ^_^ really? you're so good with only 9? im so jealous, you should definitely keep on playing, good luck in the future! im so jealous, if i were your age id just play nonstop edit: ok, i admit it. I'm a jelaous fuck whose life is drifting apart after entering early adulthood with no idea what to do, and not enough motivation to keep playing. My point is, if you just keep on playing, you will eventually be good. Ignore the troll above, and learn from my mistakes, I didn't find enough motivation after I was stuck at high masters, now I rarely play. Good luck, kids! Did you mean to log on to a different account or something? I think I missed what you were trying to do there.
all those posts were written by me, 3 in a row, trying to hate on kids, but i saw through my hatred and apologized, kept the quote for reference
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how do admins know if youre 13 or not? I'm assuming the SC account is in your parents name right? (can't see how u could have a debit card at 13...but i guess you could)
Is it like when you go the movies when you're 14 and try and get a U12 ticket. "how old are you kid?", "12!", "ok".
Was Pokebunny broadcasting his youth before he was a proven talent??
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I'm pretty sure the restrictions of age are for legal issues rather than maturity issues. Tournaments with prize money involved have to have themselves covered legally, and it's probably easier to restrict the age to legal adults.
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You can't legally contract, so you can't actually join a team unless the team decides to legally fulfill obligations one-way and run the risk of not being able to reap the benefits.
I don't know why people are unwilling to practise with you. It's probably a mix of prejudice and jealousy and a bit of humiliation sprinkled in.
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On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell?
Everyone ravels at Pokebunny with words such as, a child prodigy, amazing, how can you do this at such a young age, and yet when ever another "child prodigy" tries to step in the scene hes immediately shot down.
I'll leave you with the, Why do kids get the hate? question that I started it all off with.
We don't treat other ethnicity's or women with respect, and the answer to why that is, is the answer to why we don't treat kids with respect.
No one calls Pokebunny amazing and a child prodigy.
As for why most teams or tournaments don't accept you, no one wants to talk about how middle school or even highschool is going (if they're 18+). If they don't want you in the group, don't think you're different and more mature, because you're not. I used to think I was, but I really wasn't. And when you are 18+ and look for a group, you won't want people < 16 or 18 or whatever either.
Just deal with it and don't mention your age. If you become part of a group and no one wants you out anyways, they won't care how old you are.
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after reading the post i get the impression of someone who is "trying to hard to appear mature",
What i hate the most is when a 13 year old tries to say they are mature because its simply not true its literally impossible for a 13 year old to be mature as a person especially in this modern sheltered society typing well doesn't make you mature etc.. Just avoid it stating that you are 13 will just annoy people further, when i was -14 etc i was never keen to use a mic or share my age and i believe thats the best thing to do
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I don't think its really hate, I just think that there are a lot of restrictions with non-adults signing contracts or winning prizes.
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Edit - I didn't really read the OP (just the title) so this post is useless. Sorry guys >.>.
Edit 2 - Point I was making is that young age doesn't really matter in terms of Starcraft since at least they're in good physical shape (i.e. it's more impressive for a 40 year to be playing Starcraft professionally than a 14 year old for example).
I was replying and disagreeing to the jealous thing since most pro gamers (well Koreans) are around that age and it's more impressive for older people to obtain good results (30-40 for example) than younger due to younger players being in better physical shape usually.
On June 26 2011 08:35 tyCe wrote:
You can't legally contract, so you can't actually join a team unless the team decides to legally fulfill obligations one-way and run the risk of not being able to reap the benefits.
I don't know why people are unwilling to practise with you. It's probably a mix of prejudice and jealousy and a bit of humiliation sprinkled in.
Fun Fact - Flash was around 14 years old when he started Starcraft (or at least was invited to a team).
Fun Fact #2 - Flash is only 18 years old and is making around half a million dollars a year.
Basically age in the younger years do not matter too much in regards to Starcraft (it's when people get old and/or people who may risk getting injuries from just playing).
Though to be fair I do not think people should put their age in anyone's face [or well just reveal since I don't mean to sound like the OP did this or anything] (if they're young or old).
Just avoid it stating that you are 13 will just annoy people further, when i was -14 etc i was never keen to use a mic or share my age and i believe thats the best thing to do
Yeah agreed. Whether people intend to or not, it may be off putting sometimes.
I agree that it's not nice and people shouldn't be that way but best way is just to not reveal your age.
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On June 26 2011 08:11 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:58 vesicular wrote:On June 26 2011 07:45 Darclite wrote:
But shouldn't this be determined by his actual personality than some vague stereotype about 13 year olds? I dunno, should I have had to pay more for my insurance when I was younger because I was male and single? Why didn't they care about my personality and responsibility? So playing a computer game = paying for insurance. Got it. If you read my posts I said that I realize why legal and financial issues matter, I just didn't see why everyone felt he was too immature and wanted to attack his personality (I don't see how maturity affects your Starcraft skill level).
I was not attacking his immaturity, he brought up in the OP that he feels as he is very mature to his age, I simply said that our perceived maturity at young teenage doesn't usually look like that when we grow up and look back. I don't challenge his skill based off his age, but there are plenty practical reasons for teams to not want children in the team.
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On June 26 2011 08:41 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:35 tyCe wrote:
You can't legally contract, so you can't actually join a team unless the team decides to legally fulfill obligations one-way and run the risk of not being able to reap the benefits.
I don't know why people are unwilling to practise with you. It's probably a mix of prejudice and jealousy and a bit of humiliation sprinkled in. Fun Fact - Flash was around 14 years old when he started Starcraft (or at least was invited to a team). Fun Fact #2 - Flash is only 18 years old and is making around half a million dollars a year.Though to be fair I do not think people should put their age in anyone's face [or well just reveal since I don't mean to sound like the OP did this or anything] (if they're young or old).
Fun fact #3, original poster is from the United States
Fun Fact #4, the United States has laws
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On June 26 2011 04:50 Nagisa. wrote:
About the legality and stuff, this is probably the best point out there, and I have to say it's not exactly a hassle, if you were given a situation where you had a top 5 player but you wouldn't recruit him because he had to get his parents to sign his contracts. I don't think you'd deny it would you?
Are you a "top 5 player"? No, you're a "1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win".
Sorry you're not that top5 player where teams could make an exception to deal with parents / legal issues .
So I dont really see why you try to form your argument about a "top 5 player". You're probably not the next Flash, you're probably not the next Baby, you're probably not the next Pokebunny.
If you are - show it on ladder and contact the teams you want to join with results which can back up your claim (show replays of you beating top players).
For tournaments & top teams it's about legal issues. And you're not good enough that people care about you. They dont see the need to research what exactly would be neccessary from a legal standpoint to have you participate in a tournament / play in a team (with tournaments).
Why should they pick you and not one of the many 1401 Master Terrans which are 18+?
Concerning other "fun" clans. They play for fun and dont think a 13yo fits into their ranks. Partly, because they respect the parents. Would your parents be ok with a team where people swear, make "inappropiate" jokes, and talk about 18+ movies/games all the time? Maybe your parents are, but since the people play for fun so it would mean work for them to check with your parents. Which means too much work for such a "fun" team.
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On June 26 2011 08:41 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:35 tyCe wrote:
You can't legally contract, so you can't actually join a team unless the team decides to legally fulfill obligations one-way and run the risk of not being able to reap the benefits.
I don't know why people are unwilling to practise with you. It's probably a mix of prejudice and jealousy and a bit of humiliation sprinkled in. Fun Fact - Flash was around 14 years old when he started Starcraft (or at least was invited to a team). Fun Fact #2 - Flash is only 18 years old and is making around half a million dollars a year.Though to be fair I do not think people should put their age in anyone's face [or well just reveal since I don't mean to sound like the OP did this or anything] (if they're young or old).
And if OP is as skilled as Flash, I'm pretty sure a team will take him on and risk not having a two-way contract.
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clearly not understanding rules is 1 reason ( hense the rage thread)
18+ understands common knowledge such as things like this, you cant sign a contract
you'll need babysitters at every event
personally i cant stand playing w/ or against children, its rather frustrating. xbox live ruined that for me.
just wait til ur 18, if ur even still into sc2 by then
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On June 26 2011 08:43 holynorth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:41 Goldfish wrote:On June 26 2011 08:35 tyCe wrote:
You can't legally contract, so you can't actually join a team unless the team decides to legally fulfill obligations one-way and run the risk of not being able to reap the benefits.
I don't know why people are unwilling to practise with you. It's probably a mix of prejudice and jealousy and a bit of humiliation sprinkled in. Fun Fact - Flash was around 14 years old when he started Starcraft (or at least was invited to a team). Fun Fact #2 - Flash is only 18 years old and is making around half a million dollars a year.Though to be fair I do not think people should put their age in anyone's face [or well just reveal since I don't mean to sound like the OP did this or anything] (if they're young or old). And if OP is as skilled as Flash, I'm pretty sure a team will take him on and risk not having a two-way contract.
Actually I admit I didn't really bother reading the entire OP >.>, sorry about that to those who posted in response.
Edit - Also I wasn't using Flash's age as a "in your face" thing, I was responding to the reply where it said people would be jealous of age.
I was disagreeing to the jealous thing since most pro gamers (well Koreans) are around that age and it's more impressive for older people to obtain good results (30-40 for example) than younger due to younger players being in better physical shape usually.
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Quick tangent. I think it applies quite well though .
There is a bureaucrat (higher than administrator) on Wikipedia who was only 13 years of age when he was accepted.
There are a few things that need to be taken into account though.
1) He's got a lot of shit for it, even though he's a really good 'crat.
2) He has no contractual obligations
3) It was only found out when he was 15, people would have had a cow if they didn't know.
4) He's not receiving any money for editing. So there is no contractual obligation. And no time obligations.
5) he's still regularly confronted about decisions based on age. In some cases it has founding, in others it doesn't. But I think the biggest thing to be taken from this is the fact that he acknowledges that in a way he deserves the extra scrutiny. That he is less stable, and that he's not being discriminated against. That's why he succeeds. Making age an issue always hurts the person whose age is used.
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On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL
If you get seriously good enough to be in this league, or good enough to be a pro at any rate, then just *do it.* If your parents support you in this endeavor from step one, I think you should be able to do pretty much everything you want to in this game.
As as has already been mentioned in this threat many times, the legal issues are just too vast and troublesome for most tournament organizers to deal with your age, thats just the reality of it. If you're that good and have full family support, you shouldn't have a problem.
Let me put it another way: How many times have you run into this so far - legitimately? How many times have you gone out of your way and done the leg work to try and overcome legal problems? Without real situations in which this has been a problem for you, you are just another 1400 Masters player who isn't relevant to the pro scene. No offense, hell, I'm a diamond player that'll likely never be as good as you, but when were talking about being a professional, well, its about the profession.
Its not about you being pretty good or even really good at the game, its about doing what you need to do to make it a profession, and at your age ANY profession you tried to enter would require an insane amount of paperwork and red tape to be worked around. This isn't a Starcraft related problem at the very core of it, its runs far deeper. The good news is: You can over come the red tape if you are serious about it. But making a thread on Team Liquid isn't your path to success.
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On June 26 2011 08:42 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 08:11 Darclite wrote:On June 26 2011 07:58 vesicular wrote:On June 26 2011 07:45 Darclite wrote:
But shouldn't this be determined by his actual personality than some vague stereotype about 13 year olds? I dunno, should I have had to pay more for my insurance when I was younger because I was male and single? Why didn't they care about my personality and responsibility? So playing a computer game = paying for insurance. Got it. If you read my posts I said that I realize why legal and financial issues matter, I just didn't see why everyone felt he was too immature and wanted to attack his personality (I don't see how maturity affects your Starcraft skill level). I was not attacking his immaturity, he brought up in the OP that he feels as he is very mature to his age, I simply said that our perceived maturity at young teenage doesn't usually look like that when we grow up and look back. I don't challenge his skill based off his age, but there are plenty practical reasons for teams to not want children in the team.
Sorry, I was talking more about others attacking him than you. I only responded that way because it seemed like you oversimplified what I said.
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On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2.
What I'm trying to say here is that, kids should be treated the same in the SC2 community, just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better. Based on this post, if I didn't tell you that I was 13, would you be able to tell? I think a lot of people portray anyone under the age of 16 as someone who doesn't understand grammar, or puts A LOT of ^.^ ;D =) in every sentence.
Same thing with teams, I can't practice against anyone or join a team JUST BECAUSE I'm not 13, the common response is, "We don't want to take the risk." What risk? I don't see any harm in trying me out, but just because I'm a certain age means that I cant even TRY? My voice isn't that high, the problem here is that teenagers or people under 16 HAVE PROVEN - Gosu.Pokebunny that they can compete. (Much respect to you) Everyone ravels at Pokebunny with words such as, a child prodigy, amazing, how can you do this at such a young age, and yet when ever another "child prodigy" tries to step in the scene hes immediately shot down.
I am sorry if this is generalizing people, but this is what I have seen in my days of SC2 so thanks for reading guys and I hope you have a g'day.
I'll leave you with the, Why do kids get the hate? question that I started it all off with.
man you're missing out on the praise
"that 1400 masters kid is 13"
"what a baller"
hang in there. kids get hate because they're kids, it's called life . no one will care about your age if you get really freakin good and if they ignore you for being 13(i think you're exagerating) then they're not good friends anyways. if you want to join a team they'll probably let you in if you prove that you're not a retard and you're really good. i
no one actually cares about your age that much lol. honestly it's not that big of a deal. in fact you shouldn't care either. honestly as long as your voice is somewhat low you can go as a 15-16 year old and you're fine. also YOU shouldn't care about your age. when you talk to a guy you really don't need to mention your age.
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keep on practice, your time will come. anyway its just most teams understandably not want to go through the children-realted issues (theres many starting from legal stuff to dealing with parents and so on).
its either youd have need a parent being with you all the time or get a person who take legal responsibilitys and look out for you. up to your maturity i guess but its just noone want to deal with angry parents and the law if you fuck up, and also getting your old man traveling with you on the teams expenses just financially stupid until youre really a heavy top3 contender.
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On June 26 2011 04:19 Oreo7 wrote:It's mostly a stereotype and it feels kind of discriminatory.
Let me put it this way:
When I was twenty and playing World of Warcraft, I made every single raid. I actually specifically arranged to have my shifts work around my raiding schedule, because I had that power. When I was seventeen, I was, if anything, more dedicated to playing the game. It drove me *insane* when I missed raids, but...I couldn't help it. If my parents decided we were going on a trip, it was trip time. If they had decided to disconnect my Internet, it would have been their choice. When I had supper out of the house, or a school club, or anything else, I didn't have a choice about what I dropped. It was the video games.
That may not be the case for you, but it is the case for the majority of people under eighteen. When I was leading raids in WoW, I basically looked for three things: Reliability, talent, and attitude, in that order. I could take someone who mouthed off and did a good job, as long as he was always there and he didn't go too far out of line. On the other hand, it didn't matter if they were the greatest person in the world and amazing at playing their class: If they couldn't make raids, they were useless to me.
I think that carries over to Starcraft quite nicely. It doesn't matter if you're amazing and you have a great attitude if they can't rely on you as a player in major tournaments. Unfortunately, your age definitely is enough to keep them from being able to rely on you.
As mentioned, you're not a legal adult. At thirteen, you have no transportation. There are huge issues involved with taking you to events. Any organizer who invites you is responsible for you, unless your parents are willing to go on these trips for you. (And if you want to be big in the pro scene, that means probably at least a weekend trip a month, some international.)
It doesn't matter how mature you are, and, believe me, it's never as mature as you think that you are. The problem is that the structure of our societies doesn't adapt itself well to having children playing in tournaments. It's not because of persecution, either. It's because the overwhelming majority could not handle it. Sorry.
I do not know any kids who would ask their parents permission to play in an sc2 tournament.
On June 26 2011 04:19 Oreo7 wrote:I do not know any kids who would ask their parents permission to play in an sc2 tournament.
Then they legally cannot agree to play in the tournament. Children are not able to enter into legal contracts without the consent of their guardians. Period. That's how it works.
On June 26 2011 04:23 SkySpy wrote:
Full well knowing that it's mother would never accept a tainted scent bird,
That's actually a myth. Most birds have a pretty crappy sense of smell, and research suggests that they do not reject chicks that have been touched by humans.
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its strange that people are rude to you once they find out you're 13, what assholes yells at kids lol.. -_-
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On June 26 2011 05:38 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:32 rushz0rz wrote:I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win Please stay in school. Also, make it your priority. StarCraft should come second. Haha, thank you for worrying but I'm very dedicated to my studies, I took the SAT in 6th grade so I should be fine.
Sorry no offense, but that already comes off as very snobbish to me - its all about the image others perceive you with. If I told a kid to make sure he focuses on academics and he brushes me off with that sort of response? My immediate perception of him is that he's a kid who's full of himself. Is it justified or not? It doesn't matter - you need 'their' (ie organizers/clan leaders) help/support to getting into clans & tournaments, not the other way around. Sure there are tons of 18+ who act like 12yo's also, but as mentioned already they don't come with half the trouble with legal issue matters and such.
In the end, people just flat out don't like dealing with additional hassle especially when its something that comes with no certainty of a worthwhile payoff. Yes, you may or may not be an exception, but unless you have some incredibly unique skills and talent, its just not going to catch their attention - there are tons of kids who think they are special (not saying you aren't or anything), but isn't the case.
There's a reason why exceptions are called exceptions, because they are rare - they are indeed often overlooked because of generalization/stigma, but that's just the way life is, you can't expect people to be bothered to use their time to find out if you are different from your average peer group or not. So the risk, as you put it, is the higher probability of them that they feel they would be wasting their time; time is valuable after all. Its not fair, but life has never been fair, reality is harsh, the sooner you come to grips with that, the happier you'll be and you'll save yourself unnecessary frustration and time too (such as having to make this thread lol).
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Its also because when tournaments hand out the prize money, they can't just hand it to a kid. Just enjoy being young cause you are gonna wish when your older and have to work for a living ur gonna miss it.
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It has nothing to do with maturity and what not, and it's not just gaming. If you have to go on a school trip, your parents would have to sign a form if you're under 18. So, 18+ is just a general rule.
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On June 26 2011 05:38 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:32 rushz0rz wrote:I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win Please stay in school. Also, make it your priority. StarCraft should come second. Haha, thank you for worrying but I'm very dedicated to my studies, I took the SAT in 6th grade so I should be fine.
Sorry, but this makes me laugh and is a step towards proving that you are immature.
It does not matter at what age you took the SAT. Anybody cant take it anytime. And even then, nobody cares when you took it, only what score you got. I will take a gamble and say that you are not a child genius. You did not fall fifty points short. In fact, you probably did quite bad.
Your need to prove yourself to other people is a sign of immaturity. You just need to relax and step back. You're thirteen. You have plenty of time. Just keep playing and doing what you're doing. Within time the teams will come to you if you have the potential. Start off with ladder, z33k, and MLG.
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Baby played his first televised game at the age of 13 (14 Korean)...
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Its much more work to have kids in tournaments. They're not independent and so you have to worry about do they have someone looking after them and can they take care of themselves. There's the legal issue of can they consent to be in a tournament, barely any kids want to be in tournaments and as a massive generalization kids tend to be of a lower skill level in general.
If you're a tournament organizer its not worth the time to ensure that your tournament is open to everyone 12 and up compared to the rewards you would gain.
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I hate "smart" kids bragging about stuff like this. Stop looking for attention and focus on becoming better, you'll get scouted if you are good enough.
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You can literally just lie about your age. Similar to back right after 9/11 some people who were being targeted for their race claimed to be Indian and just avoided the flames.
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On June 26 2011 04:17 v1dom wrote:
As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For every one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Edit: If you are the second in a million, with top grandmaster talent, a stable attitude (unlikely since you've admitted you've bad mannered in the recent past), parents who are completely understanding and supporting of your hobby, and willing to discuss year-long legal contracts, which will bind their 13 year old son to what amounts essentially to a close-to-full-time job, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Domino
4Kings
Quoting this because it's probably getting passed up more than not. You may say that you don't think it will be an issue, but Domino has gone through that experience and would be a bit more qualified to speak about it.
About the age issue, yes, it shouldn't be something for which people mock you. At the same time, it matters for other reasons (such as what is quoted above). You said that you can't play normal macro games on the ladder because you keep getting cheesed/all-inned. This makes me think of two things. First, your MMR isn't high enough to put you against the higher skilled players where you will get those games you want. Second, when you do finish a good macro game, go ahead and contact the guy you just beat/lost to and see if they would be up to do practice games. You don't need to be on a team to be able to have good practice partners. Enter in some of the open tournaments that go on throughout the week and build up your name and reputation. You may have to search for tournaments that won't ask age, but it's better than trying for the few you can't get in and never hearing back. If your parents truly do understand and support you in going into semi-competitive SC2, you can ask to use their PayPal account or whatever to receive the prize money if you win anything.
The moral of the story is that you need to do a bit of work on your end. Let people know how good/responsible you are through your accomplishments and actions rather than starting a thread to talk about it.
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On June 26 2011 08:30 stokes17 wrote:
how do admins know if youre 13 or not? I'm assuming the SC account is in your parents name right? (can't see how u could have a debit card at 13...but i guess you could)
Is it like when you go the movies when you're 14 and try and get a U12 ticket. "how old are you kid?", "12!", "ok".
Was Pokebunny broadcasting his youth before he was a proven talent??
Actually, yes. Most people that I knew from TL had knowledge that I was 12-13 in my BW days.
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Awesome man, 13 years old and rocking the ladders ^^
I guess times have changed to a more conservative stance. Back in BW I knew a 14 year old korean girl living in America who used to go to tournaments.
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On June 26 2011 03:57 Warrice wrote:
legal issues and parents can often be a problem as well, imagine if something in your real life happened right before a match that you agreed to play, like you got bad grades. some parents would not allow the player to play the games. some would, but the admins cant tell what kind of parents you have.
Avoiding people under 18 helps avoid problems.
I look at one thread on team liquid and it's the people's champ: Warrice
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On June 26 2011 03:57 Warrice wrote:
legal issues and parents can often be a problem as well, imagine if something in your real life happened right before a match that you agreed to play, like you got bad grades. some parents would not allow the player to play the games. some would, but the admins cant tell what kind of parents you have.
Avoiding people under 18 helps avoid problems.
No, it's not. It's clear all these tournaments are just racist against children playing SC2.
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On June 26 2011 10:31 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 03:57 Warrice wrote:
legal issues and parents can often be a problem as well, imagine if something in your real life happened right before a match that you agreed to play, like you got bad grades. some parents would not allow the player to play the games. some would, but the admins cant tell what kind of parents you have.
Avoiding people under 18 helps avoid problems. No, it's not. It's clear all these tournaments are just racist against children playing SC2.
racist =/= prejudiced
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On June 26 2011 10:32 DueSs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 10:31 Ownos wrote:On June 26 2011 03:57 Warrice wrote:
legal issues and parents can often be a problem as well, imagine if something in your real life happened right before a match that you agreed to play, like you got bad grades. some parents would not allow the player to play the games. some would, but the admins cant tell what kind of parents you have.
Avoiding people under 18 helps avoid problems. No, it's not. It's clear all these tournaments are just racist against children playing SC2. racist =/= prejudiced
I was being sarcastic.
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On June 26 2011 10:34 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 10:32 DueSs wrote:On June 26 2011 10:31 Ownos wrote:On June 26 2011 03:57 Warrice wrote:
legal issues and parents can often be a problem as well, imagine if something in your real life happened right before a match that you agreed to play, like you got bad grades. some parents would not allow the player to play the games. some would, but the admins cant tell what kind of parents you have.
Avoiding people under 18 helps avoid problems. No, it's not. It's clear all these tournaments are just racist against children playing SC2. racist =/= prejudiced I was being sarcastic.
I know you were. Just trying to help you use the correct word in your sentence.
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see this is why kids never go pro, because they are fucking dumb about it. Enter online tournaments and when they wanna pay you, ask your parents to take the money into their bank... or ask them to open an account for u or some shit... If u were good enough you wouldn't let your age get in your way, why would you have to go to a lan tournament... most of sc2 tourneys can manage over chat, just tell them u have no mic or something.. if u werent so dumb maybe u would of figured all this out by yourself
Edit: I think some people already mentioned this so im sorry for the brutality
Also
Just because ur a kid dont expect special treatment, show ur damn skill by winning online tournaments which are fairly easy to enter regardless of age... all people do these days is talk
If mommy and daddy say no, QQ till they say yes
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It's for leagal prize winnings in some countries.
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Please stop making examples of Koreans being 12 or 13 and playing bw on a team.....
1. its in korea whitch its much more norm
2. much easier to play on a team in korea
3. the players were extremely good
4. if the players werent good they wouldnt be on a team
sorry if this already mentioned i read most of the thread except like page 5 and 6.
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The condescension in this thread is painful. I respect some of the arguments presented, notably the legal issues, but the whole "I'm older therefore smarter" argument is painful. Stupid people can be 22. Smart people can be 13. All I see in this thread are a bunch of mid 20 year old guys talking so condescendingly to their past selves and talking about how "mature" they are now. Different people mature at different times. Some people never mature. It's time we stop judging people based on their age and find out whether they're mature or not on a case by case basis esp. when they have some level of skill or talent, as OP does.
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On June 26 2011 04:17 v1dom wrote:
As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For every one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Edit: If you are the second in a million, with top grandmaster talent, a stable attitude (unlikely since you've admitted you've bad mannered in the recent past), parents who are completely understanding and supporting of your hobby, and willing to discuss year-long legal contracts, which will bind their 13 year old son to what amounts essentially to a close-to-full-time job, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Domino
4Kings
Perfection.
i.e. What if you were invited to FXO to complete in the GSTL? Would your parents let you skip out on a month or two of school in 8th grade to compete?
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On June 26 2011 11:02 Oreo7 wrote:
The condescension in this thread is painful. I respect some of the arguments presented, notably the legal issues, but the whole "I'm older therefore smarter" argument is painful. Stupid people can be 22. Smart people can be 13. All I see in this thread are a bunch of mid 20 year old guys talking so condescendingly to their past selves and talking about how "mature" they are now. Different people mature at different times. Some people never mature. It's time we stop judging people based on their age and find out whether they're mature or not on a case by case basis esp. when they have some level of skill or talent, as OP does.
Where did smart and stupid come in to play?
And sorry, but there are too many thirteen year old kids to go off a "case by case basis." I'll stick with stereotypes and generalizations. As many have said before, they exist for a reason.
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I think it's dumb that there are good players out there unable to bring their talent full circle because they can't participate in tournaments and cups to get the experience needed. If Flash couldn't play a tournament before he was 18, would he had still won a Starleague? No, he probably wouldn't of bothered with the damn game.
Tournaments and team organizers need to realize that video games are for kids too. I mean sheesh, does anyone remember the Nintendo World Championship of 1990? Video games, particularly ESPORTS, are a talent for people of all ages.
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On June 26 2011 11:12 Tump wrote:
I think it's dumb that there are good players out there unable to bring their talent full circle because they can't participate in tournaments and cups to get the experience needed. If Flash couldn't play a tournament before he was 18, would he had still won a Starleague? No, he probably wouldn't of bothered with the damn game.
Tournaments and team organizers need to realize that video games are for kids too. I mean sheesh, does anyone remember the Nintendo World Championship of 1990? Video games, particularly ESPORTS, are a talent for people of all ages.
well, anyone can participate in an mlg. if he can't make it to an mlg that's his problem. also, if he has so much free time, why isn't he in gm?
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Russian Federation89 Posts
On June 26 2011 11:02 Oreo7 wrote:
The condescension in this thread is painful. I respect some of the arguments presented, notably the legal issues, but the whole "I'm older therefore smarter" argument is painful. Stupid people can be 22. Smart people can be 13. All I see in this thread are a bunch of mid 20 year old guys talking so condescendingly to their past selves and talking about how "mature" they are now. Different people mature at different times. Some people never mature. It's time we stop judging people based on their age and find out whether they're mature or not on a case by case basis esp. when they have some level of skill or talent, as OP does.
Maturity != Intelligence
A thing I forgot to mention earlier. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to join a team. You are not good enough to be signing any contracts for a pro team anyway, there shouldn't be any random legal issues. The only reason for you to be on a team is for practice partners. Develop your social skills (on the Internets!) and find people that want the same as you: improving as a player.
The responses that you posted in this thread also greatly contradict the OP in terms of your maturity. The OP was actually not badly written and thought out. Your responses to other people in this thread have been spontaneous and defensive, indicative of your age. The type of image you created can be summed up by this sentence: "I am awesome in SC2, my parents are rich, and I took he SAT in 6th grade."
Needless to say, that is not how you want to come off.
You don't need to play in many tournaments to develop as a player. Day9 was a recluse that barely played any tournaments in BW, but when he did, he came prepared from countless of practice hours.
You need to realize your options and continue playing to become a better player.
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you remind me of myself at 13
4 years later and now I realize there are many aspects to maturity that you simply can't have at 13
being smart and talking in perfect grammar does not mean you are mature - intelligence and maturity are on two opposite sides of the spectrum
if you're living on your own and supporting yourself at age 13 that's a different story, but i highly doubt that
anyways, keep on keepin on, i'm sure there are some tournaments that will accept you
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I'm sure there are mature and respectable children lost in the sea of annoying in voice and manner 13 year olds
don't drown in it, just swim out of it as you age its no big deal
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Why exactly should a team pick you over any of the hundreds (if not thousands) of 1400+ masters players who are legal adults? Why should a team take on the legal hassle of having a minor on the roster when there is no shortage of overage players who are just as good, if not better? Why should a tournament take the risk of your parents deciding it's your night to wash the dishes and no it can't wait til you're done with your SC2 match? Sure, your opponent won't mind the walkover but the tournament admins would much rather not have to deal with you being AFK when it's time for your match to start, especially when they don't have trouble filling the brackets with people 16/18+.
I had a 15 yr old in my WoW guild. He was a good player and a good kid with the best intentions of being reliable. However, he would regularly hold the raid up for 20 minutes or more because his father would demand he go walk the dog or whatever. However much you claim otherwise, at 13 your time is most definitely not your own.
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Its not so much that people think "all kids are annoying and we don't want them on the team"
Everyone knows that there are kids like yourself who are mature beyond their age.
However, its not worth dealing with the vast majority who aren't mature, just on the off chance of picking up a mature and responsible one.
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On June 26 2011 11:17 opaque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 11:02 Oreo7 wrote:
The condescension in this thread is painful. I respect some of the arguments presented, notably the legal issues, but the whole "I'm older therefore smarter" argument is painful. Stupid people can be 22. Smart people can be 13. All I see in this thread are a bunch of mid 20 year old guys talking so condescendingly to their past selves and talking about how "mature" they are now. Different people mature at different times. Some people never mature. It's time we stop judging people based on their age and find out whether they're mature or not on a case by case basis esp. when they have some level of skill or talent, as OP does. Maturity != Intelligence A thing I forgot to mention earlier. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to join a team. You are not good enough to be signing any contracts for a pro team anyway, there shouldn't be any random legal issues. The only reason for you to be on a team is for practice partners. Develop your social skills (on the Internets!) and find people that want the same as you: improving as a player. The responses that you posted in this thread also greatly contradict the OP in terms of your maturity. The OP was actually not badly written and thought out. Your responses to other people in this thread have been spontaneous and defensive, indicative of your age. The type of image you created can be summed up by this sentence: "I am awesome in SC2, my parents are rich, and I took he SAT in 6th grade."Needless to say, that is not how you want to come off. You don't need to play in many tournaments to develop as a player. Day9 was a recluse that barely played any tournaments in BW, but when he did, he came prepared from countless of practice hours. You need to realize your options and continue playing to become a better player.
And nobody wants to be friends with that kid.
Hopefully you learn this sooner rather than later.
Best of luck.
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Umm.... no offense, but 1400 masters doesn't seem to warrant what you are asking for. There are thousands of people that are better than you out there that aren't binded to such things as school, parents, puberty... and therefore are much less of a risk.
Do you realize what kind of commitment you're making in joining a team? Countries outside of Korea are starting to realize just how much practice and dedication it takes to get to top levels at this game, can you come home from school and play till 2-3 am just about every day? It'd be different if you were high in GM or something, in which case people could say, "Okay, he's obviously extremely talented, we can take the risk here". But you're not.
And as a last bit of advice, I know that being a 1400 masters Terran at 13 may seem cool to you, but life hits you hard, fast. All this time you must be spending on SC2 at your age is really limiting the sheer amount of other things you could be exploring and having fun with. I wish I could go back to being 13 and NOT spend as much time gaming as I did, but good luck to you in your endeavors.
You may think you're mature, but you aren't. Nobody is mature at 13. As for tournaments, just compete in online ones. You don't have to speak at all... lol. If you can get to GM, high GM, and place good in online tournaments, your opportunities will come when they come.
Don't be in a hurry. It takes years upon years to become a pro.
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OP, I advise you to bookmark this thread and come back five years later and read the responses, especially the ones that talk about legal implications and "what-if" scenarios. You'll have a much more better and serious understanding why they make sense. And that is also a very important part of being mature. It's not all about having good manners all the time, oh no. In a discussion like this, that barely scratches the surface.
On June 26 2011 11:12 Tump wrote:
I think it's dumb that there are good players out there unable to bring their talent full circle because they can't participate in tournaments and cups to get the experience needed. If Flash couldn't play a tournament before he was 18, would he had still won a Starleague? No, he probably wouldn't of bothered with the damn game.
Tournaments and team organizers need to realize that video games are for kids too. I mean sheesh, does anyone remember the Nintendo World Championship of 1990? Video games, particularly ESPORTS, are a talent for people of all ages.
You, who lives in the USA, should already know this: Anyone can get sued for anything without a justifiable reason. That is why every event, organization, job signing, etc. has over nine thousand legal stuffs that you have to agree to before going onboard.
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I think it's because kids that are serious are the minority. Look at Pokebunny, 15 years old, top player that can't participate in many events. Unfortunately I don't think anything's going to change.
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Has anyone mentioned or heard of Lil Poison? Sure he plays Halo, but he just goes to show you age doesn't have to limit you if your parents support you and you are determined enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lil_Poison
http://lilpoison.com/biography.html
He was literally playing in national tournaments at the age of 5 and was 4 when he started local tournaments.
Edit: Oh and the game he plays is rated M, those are guidelines or he still wouldn't be able to play it for 4 years...
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My sister is 15... and you're younger than her... enough said...
Rules are rules. Are you going to go to the DMV and say "Why can't I drive before 16!?"
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On June 26 2011 11:47 Flonomenalz wrote:
Umm.... no offense, but 1400 masters doesn't seem to warrant what you are asking for. There are thousands of people that are better than you out there that aren't binded to such things as school, parents, puberty... and therefore are much less of a risk.
Do you realize what kind of commitment you're making in joining a team? Countries outside of Korea are starting to realize just how much practice and dedication it takes to get to top levels at this game, can you come home from school and play till 2-3 am just about every day? It'd be different if you were high in GM or something, in which case people could say, "Okay, he's obviously extremely talented, we can take the risk here". But you're not.
And as a last bit of advice, I know that being a 1400 masters Terran at 13 may seem cool to you, but life hits you hard, fast. All this time you must be spending on SC2 at your age is really limiting the sheer amount of other things you could be exploring and having fun with. I wish I could go back to being 13 and NOT spend as much time gaming as I did, but good luck to you in your endeavors.
You may think you're mature, but you aren't. Nobody is mature at 13. As for tournaments, just compete in online ones. You don't have to speak at all... lol. If you can get to GM, high GM, and place good in online tournaments, your opportunities will come when they come.
Don't be in a hurry. It takes years upon years to become a pro.
I wish i had brought an umbrella, because it's raining cold, hard facts up in here.
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On June 26 2011 06:53 ThePurist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:43 Nagisa. wrote:On June 26 2011 06:21 Crystal368 wrote:"I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect..." Do you really think you get all the hate just because you're young? If you are being well mannered and mature people will eventually stop bothering you because you're young, you're saying you're fixing the attitude problems, but with the history of even getting banned for dis-respect, you might be in for a tough race. I've had a lot of experiences with kids, or I guess; young teenagers, around your age, in games. I don't have anything against different ages at all, but it's a fact that there are a lot of immature kids, obviously. Excuse me, I said I have made a lot of mistakes, you have probably made thousands of more mistakes seeing as how you are much older than me. We all make mistakes, I didn't say, I flame on a regular basis and I'm always immature. I said I have made mistakes. Thank you. Crystal does have a genuine point. It's great that you changed your attitude on manner, but your reply shows immaturity (at least to me): "you have probably made thousands of more mistakes seeing as how you are much older than me" No need to be so defensive... it wasn't a malicious comment imo.
Um, honestly I don't think that was an immature reply. That's how things work. People makes lots of mistakes. Every single person. As age increases, the number of mistakes increase.
I don't think he was intending disrespect by that.
However, I know how it feels for you at 13 - the adult world is in control of everything and "kids" are not allowed to do much of the same activities (for legal or other reasons). There are real reasons for this though. When I was 13, I was quite a few grade levels ahead in math/science/etc. However, compared to what I know now, I was stupid. I'm still stupid but I have a better understanding of life, emotions, and socialization.
While intellectual maturity can happen before it does in most people, emotional and social maturity is EXTREMELY rare in any teenager. I know that if somebody told me this when I was a teenager I would have claimed they were false and went off on some huge logical argument, but I now know it to be true.
I would give anything in the world to know what I know right now and turn back to the clock to do my life from 13 up over again. But that isn't the way things work. Everyone has to learn for themselves and other people telling them what not to do rarely helps.
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One person in the SC2 community that is a prime example of why children are shunned is sixjax.Major. He's 14 or sommet, he's a complete douche and struggles to show respect to anyone.
On the other hand, he's got a contract. More then one, actually, considering he was in ROOT before sixjax. Idk why other 14 y/o haven't been picked up seeing as that little idiot did.
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Chuigo might want to check some of your information. I'm pretty sure Major is 17 or 18. He's certainly not 14. Please check your statements before you present them as facts.
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On June 26 2011 13:55 chuigo wrote:
One person in the SC2 community that is a prime example of why children are shunned is sixjax.Major. He's 14 or sommet, he's a complete douche and struggles to show respect to anyone.
On the other hand, he's got a contract. More then one, actually, considering he was in ROOT before sixjax. Idk why other 14 y/o haven't been picked up seeing as that little idiot did.
sixjax.MajOr is also ridiculously talented. Teams have deemed him worth the risk and liability. His abilities outweighed his BM.
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Russian Federation43 Posts
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On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
I'll leave you with the, Why do kids get the hate? question that I started it all off with.
13 year olds have a reputation for being flakey. Which is fine. You're 13. You're supposed to be flakey and get away with shit.
I'm 32 and I'm having trouble getting the 50+ crowd to take me seriously. Never changes ...
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On June 26 2011 05:38 Nagisa. wrote:
Haha, thank you for worrying but I'm very dedicated to my studies, I took the SAT in 6th grade so I should be fine.
True story, I was 10 points (out of 1600 at the time) shy of a perfect score on the SAT when I was 14 years old (which was now 26 years ago).
From my perspective right now, this fact indicates nothing about my maturity level at the time, my dedication to school, or anything else except that I was ahead of my peers at the time in math and English.
In fact, after that, I got bad grades for much of high school, and bad enough grades in college to fail out. In each case, my maturity was lagging what it had to be to do the work I was doing, and once I got a couple of years older, I found it much easier to put in the time and effort.
Now, back to the basic question. No, at 13 there's simply no conceivable way you could participate in a top level team like Liquid or EG or (name your favorite Korean team.) The time investment and travel requirements just aren't compatible with your life.
However, I can't imagine why you couldn't find a more casual team that would offer you good practice opportunities appropriate to your skill level.
Tournaments, as people have pointed out, are almost entirely about the legalities. In the U.S., at least, there's a law that restricts collecting personal information on the Internet for kids under age 13, so that is one reason you might have been disallowed at a younger age. Age requirements (usually 16+) for in-person tournaments like MLG often come down to requirements that are imposed by the hosting venue, meaning the convention center where the event is held. That's the same reason that Blizzcon requires attendees under 16 to be accompanied by their parents.
For now, you probably have access to a pretty good range of online tournaments, which are probably where you should be anyway given your current ladder ranking. By the time you get to be 16, you'll probably be much, much better at the game, so maybe being excluded for the time being from live tournaments isn't a bad thing.
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On June 26 2011 13:55 chuigo wrote:
One person in the SC2 community that is a prime example of why children are shunned is sixjax.Major. He's 14 or sommet, he's a complete douche and struggles to show respect to anyone.
On the other hand, he's got a contract. More then one, actually, considering he was in ROOT before sixjax. Idk why other 14 y/o haven't been picked up seeing as that little idiot did.
what the hell
im pretty sure the guy you have in mind and major are two different people
major is older than 18, and from what i've seen, he's never come off as a douche in any way
sure he's a little immature, but he's pretty friendly and very dedicated to the game
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On June 26 2011 14:13 fineshed wrote:
major is older than 18, and from what i've seen, he's never come off as a douche in any way
sure he's a little immature, but he's pretty friendly and very dedicated to the game
He's either 17 or freshly 18.
With all due respect to sixjaxMajor, who's a very talented player, there's really quite a story there.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209881
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The thing is that every kid thinks their mature and self-reliant. Then you get older and realize "holy crap I was so stupid back then." The thing about maturity is that you can't identify someone as mature until you yourself are mature. In fact, adults often seem immature to kids, because they aren't mentally equipped to understand the adult perspective.
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You tell em kid!
When I was 11-13 I used to travel sometimes interstate playing MtG tournaments and 40 year olds would rage at me when they lost tehe.
If someone back then told me I couldn't play I would have been pretty devastated.
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I think this posting has less to do with the SC2 community and more to do with legalities. It's great you are a master's player and commited to playing, but you must realize that at 13 you can't possibly sign anything yourself or be depended on since parents would have to be present all of the time. If you were a little bit older you may have realized that it's not the SC2 community, because I'm sure we would all want you to join a team and compete.
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Don't let age fool you. Stupidity, arrogance , and ignorance are traits that can manifest in any age group. You're still young so go out and enjoy your freedom before responsibilities pile up left and right. You'll also be much better in the game at 16+
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13 is pretty young... but you have a ways to go before you are recruited to a serious team. As a long time gamer I suggest you just join a slightly less serious Masters level team on your server. Train hard with them and try to get into GM. If you do you'll get noticed sooner or later and someone will approach you.
It is hard as a young person to try and get credit and get noticed. You strive very hard to be as good and mature as someone older, unfortunately many young folk just lack in maturity to prove themselves against the stigma. I'm sure that your talent and your determination is all you'll need to either do very well in the SC2 community or like many young adults, you'll find other aspirations to follow after this one sours.
Best of luck buddy. I wish you the best!
(I'd practice with you but I'm just a lowly Diamond player. Hehe.)
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On June 26 2011 04:17 v1dom wrote:
As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For every one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Edit: If you are the second in a million, with top grandmaster talent, a stable attitude (unlikely since you've admitted you've bad mannered in the recent past), parents who are completely understanding and supporting of your hobby, and willing to discuss year-long legal contracts, which will bind their 13 year old son to what amounts essentially to a close-to-full-time job, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Domino
4Kings
I don't think this post can be stressed enough. Especially for all the kiddies still saying 'But I'm mature for my age and not like everyone else, it's not fair'.
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Like others have said 16/18/21 are all ages of consent in one form or another(such as licenses,legal adult, drinking age) and most organizations protect themselves from any problems by having age restrictions.
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ESports in Korea is much more accepted in the US. The odds of your parents fully supporting this, which includes missing school and other family time, is rather slim, even if they at first seem to support the idea. Not to mention that entering a contract is something taken very seriously (You have to go through all sorts of red tape to have a job while you are underage or when you get your first job, It's both time consuming and sometimes costs a bit of money as well, depending on your job.) Does that mean you cannot help out or participate, of course not! Serving as a practice partner to some pros and making connections right now would be much more beneficial at this stage in your life, allowing you to mature as a player and learning how the "business" side of eSports works.
Don't worry, this scene will still be around when you are 18.
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Yeah, there are legal and practical issues that limit a minor's participation, but the biggest factor that kids need to understand is this:
You don't know anything.
No, stop. You don't know anything. Sure, you're good at StarCraft and you are advanced in school. That's great. You still don't know anything.
I still haven't graduated from college. I've never bought a house. I've never had a real "career" rather than just a job. I've never been fired from that career. I am barely over 1/5 of the way through my life and a good portion of my time being alive has been spent as a booger eating little kid. Shoot, my brain isn't even fully done developing yet and you know what? I am nearly twice your age. I was playing video games before you were even born. Virtually everything you have experienced, I experienced before you were even born and I still have only experienced a tiny fraction of my life.
You just, you need to understand this, man. At 13, you don't know anything. At 16, you still don't know anything. At 18, you are approaching a point in your life where you can begin to learn things, but it is very likely that you will still not know anything for many more years. You may be bright, for a 13 year old. You may be mature, for a 13 year old. Compared to actual adults, you are still uneducated, ignorant, and underdeveloped and most adults are still all of those things.
Honestly, when I was 13, I could see myself making this same thread. Now, I realize how absolutely ridiculous this entire idea is. This sentence right here:
On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:
If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time.
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. At 13, you are not going to be hitting your prime in anything whatsoever, just based off of time, alone. If you live to be 80 years old, at 13 you still are less than 1/6 of the way through you life. All the time you have spent doing anything, you still have 6 times that to be alive. Now, Boxer is, what, 31 years old? So, let's just use 30. If your "gaming career" can only last until you are thirty (gross assumption), that means you still have 17 years of playing left. You are not even half way there. Moreover, how many years have you even been able seriously play and practice? Two? Three? So, you are on maybe year 3 of a 20 year career and you think this your prime? Come on, man. The fact that you would suggest that is itself evidence that you are wrong, ignorant and immature. Sorry, but you're only 13. Everyone is that way at 13. It isn't your fault, that is just the way it is.
Seriously, at 13 years old, you have hardly been alive long enough to discover all the things of which your own dong is capable and you aren't even old enough to know why that is important. You don't know anything and the sooner you realize that, the better it is for everyone, including yourself. Especially yourself. Well, maybe especially your parents but you are definitely second in line of who gets to benefit because once you recognize that, you can begin to address it.
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On June 26 2011 14:38 barneycast wrote:
Like others have said 16/18/21 are all ages of consent in one form or another(such as licenses,legal adult, drinking age) and most organizations protect themselves from any problems by having age restrictions.
The problem is that they are very arbitrary. Why sixteen? I'm 14 and I'm probably twice as mature as some of the dumbass 18 year olds who play flash games in their free time and call other kids gay at school. Those guys are the immature ones, not me, and I can't drive, but they can. I can't vote, but they can. I don't know what would be better system but it's annoying. Stop age discrimination damnit. I started lurking TL when I was 12. Why? I loved the game, TL was awesome, and I didn't care what people thought of me. Nevertheless, weakminded idiots continued to hound me online when they learned I was twelve. I'm 14 now, but people still say: "Damn, you're pretty young, I don't think you should be on the internet." What?
Let's put it this way: Let's say that I'm hypothetically a child prodigy who's better at everything and smarter than most adults, but because of the arbitrary age limits, I can't do jack shit since I've already passed college. The second I turn sixteen, I can suddenly start doing things though. How stupid is that?
BTW I'm not a child prodigy.
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You can pretty much tell whether a person is going to be a moron by the time he/she's around 13 or 14. If by that age they aren't able to show any sign of maturity or intelligence, you can be pretty sure that's how that person will act for the rest of his/her life.
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Every 13 year old says "i know people older than me (in this case 20) who are much more immature then me" lol so what? like what does that even mean. Your 13 years old hate to break it to you but you ARE immature still youve barely hit puberty. Just because you know some stupid immature 20 year olds doesnt say anything about your maturity level, and the fact that they probably try and stoop down to your level when they are hanging around you just to be "fun" im sure they arent like that when hanging out with their own friends.
Its part of growing up man, you are able to do more things and have more opportunities as you get older.
Just the fact that you say your aspiring for a GSL win when you havent even entered in any tournaments (because you cant) shows alot about your maturity level. Sure its nice to have dreams but you havent even entered an online tournament yet its pretty unrealisitc at this point...
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You guys call yourselves smart and you try to argue this injustice towards you? If you guys were truly smart, you guys would have the logic to justify the age limit.
Hey guess what, shit runs like this for a reason. Age limits are set for the populous and not just you. Yeah it sucks but deal with it.
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Hating on the youth is basically a sport. Ignore trolls, even when they claim to be wiser than you.
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On June 26 2011 13:55 chuigo wrote:
One person in the SC2 community that is a prime example of why children are shunned is sixjax.Major. He's 14 or sommet, he's a complete douche and struggles to show respect to anyone.
On the other hand, he's got a contract. More then one, actually, considering he was in ROOT before sixjax. Idk why other 14 y/o haven't been picked up seeing as that little idiot did.
Hes definitely not 14 either he is between 16 and 18 i know that i just can remember if it was 16 or 18
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[GosI]Terran was 16 during TSL2. hes probably 17
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On June 26 2011 06:23 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 05:43 Nagisa. wrote:
Like I stated one of the main problems is the team, I can't practice macro games I get all'ined 95% of my ladder games, It'd be really great to play with a group of people who are on consistently. It's not exactly the same, but I ran a WoW guild for a couple of years. We had players who were 13 or 14 years old and generally the biggest problem we had with them was that they'd be in the middle of something and announce that their parents had demanded they leave the computer. Even if they personally wished to be reliable members of our group, it was impossible to account for what their family would demand of them. In addition, while they were often very good players and quite reasonable in the moment, over the long run the people I encountered who were 13 or 14 had serious maturity issues that got in the way of doing what we were trying to do. They complained about negative feedback when things weren't going well, they didn't exercise self control with joking around when it was time to be serious, that kind of thing. The one, single exception was a girl who was 14 when she was with us. Her dad was a leader in the guild. Her behavior was completely exemplary, but I have to imagine that it made a difference to have a parent who was participating alongside her.
LOL i used to run Icecrown raids and i remember this one kids mom came on vent and was like "Jason has to leave now he has to brush his teeth and go to bed , sorry" that was probably the funniest one but there are many occasions where something like this happened with young kids, and we had to start having ventrilo be manditory and only accept people who sounded old.
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On June 26 2011 15:46 cheesemaster wrote:
Every 13 year old says "i know people older than me (in this case 20) who are much more immature then me" lol so what? 1 like what does that even mean. Your 13 years old hate to break it to you but you ARE immature still youve barely hit puberty. 2 Just because you know some stupid immature 20 year olds doesnt say anything about your maturity level, and the fact that they probably try and stoop down to your level when they are hanging around you just to be "fun" im sure they arent like that when hanging out with their own friends. 3
Its part of growing up man, you are able to do more things and have more opportunities as you get older.
Just the fact that you say your aspiring for a GSL win when you havent even entered in any tournaments (because you cant) shows alot about your maturity level. Sure its nice to have dreams but you havent even entered an online tournament yet its pretty unrealisitc at this point... 4
1 It proves the point that while mature kids (and yes, there are mature kids, you may not have met one but that doesn't change anything) can't have the responsibility of an older person even though there are PLENTY of 21 year olds who understand nothing about politics and sociology and yet they can vote, drive, and drink.
2 How does hitting puberty change anything? Obviously having a big dick matters when you're talking politics. Right. Yeah. By the way that is a GIGANTIC generalization when you say that anyone who is pubescent is immature.
3 There are plenty of assholes and immature pricks who act like that even when they are around adults and people of their own age.
4 I am not aspiring for a GSL win. I know I suck relative to most people. I don't want to enter tournaments until I'm good. What does that say about my maturity?
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It's just experience. People have had bad experiences with younger people. I can't tell you how many 14-year olds I've met who tug around you wanting to be your best friend: do everything you are thinking or want, try to be the nicest guy around and it's just over-bearing.
For me, sometimes, the younger people need to be independent, not play what others play, but want to play because they like the game and others do too (thus they play together).
Off-topic, but that's my anecdote, I suffer the same issue sometimes, even at the age of 21 (soon 22).
Nonetheless, don't let it keep you down. Even if you have trouble finding teams or groups, you'll have the experience or the interest at a young age, something worth noting when you hit an acceptable age to the majority.
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1) Cool there are irresponsible 21 year olds. So now you can drink and drive and vote. So irresponsible adults mean age requirements need to be thrown away...?
2) It is very rare to find a kid who is mature and is prepubescent. I'm sure there is the rare one but every single one I have played with/against are annoying squeaky voiced pricks. This is on console games, RTS games and RPG games so yeah it's guilt by association. Sorry but I've been burned too many times trying to give kids breaks.
3) See 1
4) Nothing that is just common sense. Really your not as good as a person who practices what they do all day long while you are at school? That is extreme intelligence and maturity.
I was the exact same as you don't get me wrong. 5 years ago I couldn't find a competitive guild mostly because a) voice was high :D b) couldn't commit as much as I needed due to parents.
People would have 18+ as a requirement to join a guild in the game Guild Wars. I would always pm and say I'm 13 but really mature. No one would take me and I was pissed even though I had a good number of pvp titles and wins. Skip forward to 2 years ago 16 years old and recruiting for my guild and someone guy pms me the infamous "I'm 13 but I'm really mature" and I remember my struggle to find a decent guild so I let him in. Long story short we play a high end pvp game with him and he throws a temper tantrum mid game and leaves us. So we pretty much got embarrassed on the in game TV system. I never gave 13 year olds any more chances no one underneath 16 was allowed in and if we heard a squeaky voice in vent we would not let that person play PvP no matter how old they said they were all because some little shit ruined our innocence in that regard.
It's like leaving a wild bear in your kids room. Sure you have a friend who has a cool bear and MAYBE you will find a cool bear too but the last 10 times you tried it the bear ate your kid.
If you really want a clan look for a casual clan and don't tell them your age. If you don't go to tournaments it won't matter and if you play well they will more than likely be happy to practice with you and don't go on vent if they haven't seen you play so they can know you as a decent playing kid rather than just a squeaky noise.
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On June 26 2011 16:09 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 15:46 cheesemaster wrote:
Every 13 year old says "i know people older than me (in this case 20) who are much more immature then me" lol so what? 1 like what does that even mean. Your 13 years old hate to break it to you but you ARE immature still youve barely hit puberty. 2 Just because you know some stupid immature 20 year olds doesnt say anything about your maturity level, and the fact that they probably try and stoop down to your level when they are hanging around you just to be "fun" im sure they arent like that when hanging out with their own friends. 3
Its part of growing up man, you are able to do more things and have more opportunities as you get older.
Just the fact that you say your aspiring for a GSL win when you havent even entered in any tournaments (because you cant) shows alot about your maturity level. Sure its nice to have dreams but you havent even entered an online tournament yet its pretty unrealisitc at this point... 4 1 It proves the point that while mature kids (and yes, there are mature kids, you may not have met one but that doesn't change anything) can't have the responsibility of an older person even though there are PLENTY of 21 year olds who understand nothing about politics and sociology and yet they can vote, drive, and drink. 2 How does hitting puberty change anything? Obviously having a big dick matters when you're talking politics. Right. Yeah. By the way that is a GIGANTIC generalization when you say that anyone who is pubescent is immature. 3 There are plenty of assholes and immature pricks who act like that even when they are around adults and people of their own age. 4 I am not aspiring for a GSL win. I know I suck relative to most people. I don't want to enter tournaments until I'm good. What does that say about my maturity?
Im not saying their arent mature kids, when i was 12-14 all my friends parents used to praise my parents on how well mannered and mature i was for my age. Im sure its a similair case for you. It made me think exactly along the line of thought you are trying to portray that i was mature beyond my years and that because I have some older friends / people praise me for my maturity i should be treated equally and have the same freedoms as a 16 or 18 year old.
Im 23 now and looking back on that i realise how foolish i was though, i was most certainly not mature (maturity is much much more than being well mannered or speaking properly or being intellectual) its a state of mind that you just dont have at that age. Sure there are 13 year olds who are mature for their age, but that doesnt make them actually mature like an adult they dont have the life experiences to be mature yet. Maturity is just something that comes with age its not something you can force it happens slowly but surely over time it happens faster for some then others but there is a difference between being mature for your age and being mature.
Im sure you are mature for your age, I dont think anyone is arguing that but your still only 13 and you have alot to learn about life. its not something you can learn by being intellectual or reading books. As you become a teenager you start to have alot more options and freedoms and you will make mistakes and learn from them(hopefully) to me that is part of maturity its what ive learnt from living my life and making mistakes and from the outcomes of the good or bad decisions you make.When you are 13 there isnt really many important decisions you have made for yourself up to this point a majority of what you do is dictated by your parents assuming you have a normal family life and arent a 13 year old fending for yourself with no parents. Its hard to explain but i guarantee when you look back on yourself at 13 5-8 years from now you will not consider yourself mature regardless of how subjective the term may be.
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On June 26 2011 04:52 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks. ^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross.
Hi.
I suggest that you set a notification and remind yourself to go back and look at this thread and what you wrote 3 years from now, or even maybe 3 months from now. Looking back on ones previous rants online always makes me cringe. I am almost 30 years old, I grew up being a little shitkid, but I knew how to portray myself as a mature young adult even though I was anything but a mature person. The fact of the matter is you are a kid and shouldn't expect that a grown up person should treat you otherwise just because you are online. Actually, why do you expect grown ups to treat you specially?
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On June 26 2011 16:42 NicoLoco wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:52 Nagisa. wrote:On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks. ^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross. Hi. I suggest that you set a notification and remind yourself to go back and look at this thread and what you wrote 3 years from now, or even maybe 3 months from now. Looking back on ones previous rants online always makes me cringe. I am almost 30 years old, I grew up being a little shitkid, but I knew how to portray myself as a mature young adult even though I was anything but a mature person. The fact of the matter is you are a kid and shouldn't expect that a grown up person should treat you otherwise just because you are online. Actually, why do you expect grown ups to treat you specially?
Because hes "mature" and that means he should be treated differently fromm other 13 year olds.
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I played Halo from age 11-14 (I'm 14 now but I've quit) and I found a team with 3 16-18 year olds after about 2-3 years. There will be a team that will accept you eventually :/
EDIT: Sorry for putting a face at the end of my sentence; I guess that means I'm not as mature as you.
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On June 26 2011 11:02 Oreo7 wrote:
The condescension in this thread is painful. I respect some of the arguments presented, notably the legal issues, but the whole "I'm older therefore smarter" argument is painful. Stupid people can be 22. Smart people can be 13. All I see in this thread are a bunch of mid 20 year old guys talking so condescendingly to their past selves and talking about how "mature" they are now. Different people mature at different times. Some people never mature. It's time we stop judging people based on their age and find out whether they're mature or not on a case by case basis esp. when they have some level of skill or talent, as OP does.
This God people, he didn't ask advice from the older more "mature" poster in this thread so stop being condescending. The real answer to why many teams and tourneys don't accept minors have been answered(legal issues/not worth the risk unless you are super good).I am 23 BTW before anybody tries to pass me off as another hurt 13 year old.
And yeah, while maturity often comes with age it doesn't mean its a general rule, some of our current Pros act in a very childish and immature way and a lot are quite unreliable and they are still allowed to play.
As for you OP, well if you are really commited and your parents support you then go for it and focus on getting to the next level, participate in small tourneys and stuff like that and make a name for yourself. As you are younger you will have to prove yourself more to the community, but its not certainly impossible. And also understand that you will have to sacrifice a lot of stuff and maybe you will regret it later(but meh to that, most of us regret a lot of stuff anyways, just be sure to be aware of the downside).
I mean you talk about having being banned and stuff like that, so that may indicate that you are not as mature as you think(none of us are) but as I said if you really want to be a pro then you just simply need to work your ass off and prove yourself, its not like it has been the first time an underage kid has proven himself to be good enough to be a pro gamer.
BTW I am kinda sad that you are so high and I am so low in ladder >_> I need to play more.
Edit: BTW no one is hating on underage people. As far as the reasons presented I agree in the legal ones, its just much harder for a team or organization to have underaged people participating and while popular belief may say different kids are more restricted to what they can do(you have to attend to school,not stay up too late , blah blah )
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Well you've been answered with 14 pages so I think you get the point but I agree with the rest. People don't want to play with anyone under 16 because of these mainly:
- You can easily get grounded from SC2 or have it taken away.
- Unreliable in just about any way you would think about it.
- Due to stereotypes the majority of people your age are VERY immature, most people don't want to take the risk of letting you on the team or into a tournament just to see you start raging and spamming everyone with "LULZ UR JUS MAD BRO, FKIN SCRUB L2P, L0L!XD"
- Most people your age have a squeaky voice which drives older people insane.
- Getting around to said tournaments assuming they are LAN (even though SC2 doesn't have LAN) is very difficult for you since you cannot drive.
- Staying up late and gaming or being on during certain hours is almost a guaranteed issue.
- etc, I could list more but they would honestly just be more in-depth reasons of what I've already said.
Good luck, I suppose you can always lie and say you're 16+ assuming you aren't trying to go to an IRL tourney or use voice chat.
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I know an 11 year old around 1.7k, he's really, really good.
Get to GM, and nobody will dare f around with your high rank, regardless of your age, trust me. Anything lower rank and you really don't have much of a chance of winning anything anyways.
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On June 26 2011 16:46 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I played Halo from age 11-14 (I'm 14 now but I've quit) and I found a team with 3 16-18 year olds after about 2-3 years.
It was something playing Halo on XBox Live and having prepubescent kids running around yelling things like "Come back here, faggot, I'll rape you till you bleed!" in their squeaky voices.
That and some dude who was a heavy breather. He'd sneak up on people, frag them, breath heavily and start grunting.
I'm guessing he was a little older, though, lol.
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I think it's been said a million times before, but it's just true.
Being 18 myself, I recently had to go through these troubles, but younger kids acting mature is a true rarity nowadays, and people put those kind of guidelines out to protect themselves from the vast majorities.
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It's all about the legal issues man. If you are a youngyon correct my spelling cause I messed it up. you need to learn that people need to do alot more than just screw around with these kids trying to sign up for tournaments. Way to Red Tape really sorry that you weren't born in a good era, such as 1980s cause if you were born in a good era and played BW like all the other good kids. I am pretty drunk right now but I really wanted to post here. Cause you are really just in need of some patience. Yeah you are masters and prob a good player but USA, and other countries don't want to deal with all the parental bull shit that goes in accepting players that are older.
The best example of this is VTpokebunney he is a young dude, he is really good would beat me for sure, though because of his age he still can't sign up for a lot of tournaments that he would win. I am sorry again that you couldn't have convinced your parents to push you out a couple years ahead of scheeldue.
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While i know what you mean to some extent having myself been an aspiring cs player when i was younger. Generally speaking it is just safer for teams to blindly say no. You must also understand that older generations dont like when 'kids' are better than them in terms of skill. I had that problem all the time back in the day, even though i wasnt a fucking squeaker lol. Good luck!
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At any rate, don't rush it, mate.
Starcraft 2 will be around when you're 18, and you'll be a beast.
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To the OP,
I think you need to understand it's mainly because (as stated multiple times in this thread) of the legal aspect of joining a team. In order to join a competitive professional gaming team, you often times must sign a contract that has many terms and conditions that I'm not going to list. If you're not 18, then you must have your parents/legal guardians to do it for you. Rules are rules. Plain and simple. Managers who run teams would not want to take the risk of you violating the contract, causing many problems not only for them, but for your parents who signed the contract. Not to mention the liability they must bear if something were to happen if you parents are not around.
Another issue is reliability. Being 13 years old, you're still dependent on your parents for mostly everything. The transportation, money, food, housing, is probably all provided by your parents. What if you can't make a tournament because they aren't willing to drive? What if you can't practice with the team because you parents want you to focus on school? Or what if this little thing called life happens, where unexpected events come up that basically get in the way of your obligations to the team? What if your interests change as you age and no longer consider Starcraft a big part of your life?
Also, it's not about being mature, hitting puberty, intelligence, etc. It doesn't matter that you claim to be mature for your age or that you took the SAT when you were in 6th grade. Like people said, there's a lot of immature people out there but can play in tournaments because they meet the minimum age requirement. But just because you can't play in 16+/18+ tournaments now doesn't mean you can't find practice partners or continue climbing that ladder. Keep playing and try to get to grandmasters to get more exposure because trust me, there are many people at your skill level.
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The answer is in the disclaimer....
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So now we don't accept 13 year olds? But we accepted Flash...
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"don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do"
The solution lies in the proportions, children under 16 mostly act immature and many are addicted to the game in a harmful way. While being older absolutely does not guarantee not being a dick, it kinda reduces the chance significantly because most of those are at college or work or both, so they experienced multiple level of socializing. Also have more sense of responsability since they drive, vote and mostly live in campus / their own apartment. That being said, on the internet every social category acts like assholes to some degree.
Also kids can be cruel in school (fights, bullying, w/e), which make the "victims" prone to overcompensate online, acting taugh, callin out people.
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Ummm, haven't we answered the OP's question already?
Feels like we're beating a dead horse here.
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Am I the only person in this thread who can look back and say-- I've grown a lot since then, but I was hella mature as a kid? Paying my insurances, gas, school, housing, food, clothing, phone; working and school full time to support myself on my own before I was even old enough to buy Sharpies in the 'wonderful' state of Texas.
Yeah, experience (which often correlates to age) gives you better insights into different life issues. But experience and maturity is not something that develops in all areas equally. The only maturity that really counts for OP is-- his ability to interact with others in a mature manner, his ability to treat his sc2 commitments with maturity (be it a team/tournament/stream), and his ability to take constructive criticism maturely (in order to improve). His ability to related to your divorce, or having a 3 year old, or rising interest rates on your house, or whatever other bullshit makes you older and wiser, has nothing to do with what he is asking.
For tournaments/contractual-teams, the legal issues are legit good reasons not to include a minor. The annoying/immature stereotypes are answers for why he is not accepted on a team, but certainly not good reasons. You don't know the OP, don't make dumb statements about him as a person based off your stereotypes.
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On June 26 2011 17:38 RedJustice wrote:
Am I the only person in this thread who can look back and say-- I've grown a lot since then, but I was hella mature as a kid? Paying my insurances, gas, school, housing, food, clothing, phone; working and school full time to support myself on my own before I was even old enough to buy Sharpies in the 'wonderful' state of Texas.
Yeah, experience (which often correlates to age) gives you better insights into different life issues. But experience and maturity is not something that develops in all areas equally. The only maturity that really counts for OP is-- his ability to interact with others in a mature manner, his ability to treat his sc2 commitments with maturity (be it a team/tournament/stream), and his ability to take constructive criticism maturely (in order to improve). His ability to related to your divorce, or having a 3 year old, or rising interest rates on your house, or whatever other bullshit makes you older and wiser, has nothing to do with what he is asking.
For tournaments/contractual-teams, the legal issues are legit good reasons not to include a minor. The annoying/immature stereotypes are answers for why he is not accepted on a team, but certainly not good reasons. You don't know the OP, don't make dumb statements about him as a person based off your stereotypes.
You're right, it all depends on the kid, but it's hard to find a 19 year old that isn't a cocky pain in the ass.
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On June 26 2011 17:44 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 17:38 RedJustice wrote:
Am I the only person in this thread who can look back and say-- I've grown a lot since then, but I was hella mature as a kid? Paying my insurances, gas, school, housing, food, clothing, phone; working and school full time to support myself on my own before I was even old enough to buy Sharpies in the 'wonderful' state of Texas.
Yeah, experience (which often correlates to age) gives you better insights into different life issues. But experience and maturity is not something that develops in all areas equally. The only maturity that really counts for OP is-- his ability to interact with others in a mature manner, his ability to treat his sc2 commitments with maturity (be it a team/tournament/stream), and his ability to take constructive criticism maturely (in order to improve). His ability to related to your divorce, or having a 3 year old, or rising interest rates on your house, or whatever other bullshit makes you older and wiser, has nothing to do with what he is asking.
For tournaments/contractual-teams, the legal issues are legit good reasons not to include a minor. The annoying/immature stereotypes are answers for why he is not accepted on a team, but certainly not good reasons. You don't know the OP, don't make dumb statements about him as a person based off your stereotypes. You're right, it all depends on the kid, but it's hard to find a 19 year old that isn't a cocky pain in the ass.
what about combatex...............
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On June 26 2011 17:38 RedJustice wrote:
Am I the only person in this thread who can look back and say-- I've grown a lot since then, but I was hella mature as a kid? Paying my insurances, gas, school, housing, food, clothing, phone; working and school full time to support myself on my own before I was even old enough to buy Sharpies in the 'wonderful' state of Texas.
Yeah, experience (which often correlates to age) gives you better insights into different life issues. But experience and maturity is not something that develops in all areas equally. The only maturity that really counts for OP is-- his ability to interact with others in a mature manner, his ability to treat his sc2 commitments with maturity (be it a team/tournament/stream), and his ability to take constructive criticism maturely (in order to improve). His ability to related to your divorce, or having a 3 year old, or rising interest rates on your house, or whatever other bullshit makes you older and wiser, has nothing to do with what he is asking.
For tournaments/contractual-teams, the legal issues are legit good reasons not to include a minor. The annoying/immature stereotypes are answers for why he is not accepted on a team, but certainly not good reasons. You don't know the OP, don't make dumb statements about him as a person based off your stereotypes.
there is a difference between being mature at 16-18 and being mature when you have barely hit puberty at 13 years old (in the case of the OP) im sure you werent paying insurance gas school housing food clothing phone when you were 13 years old at that age you are still very much dependant on your parents, in most places you can not even have a job at this point.
Im 23 now and i moved out of my parents house when i was 17 and have lived on my own and gotten a job as an IT consultant and payed my own rent and pretty much have had no financial aid from my parents since then (my mom still goes grocery shopping for me but i dont ask her to lol)
Being mature at a young age when you are actually old enough to support yourself and move out on your own is a whole lot different then thinking you are mature at 13 because you have good grades.
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A rotten apple spoils the bunch. And unfortunately for kids around the age of 13, there are a LOT of rotten apples. Although in regards to tournaments requiring a minimum age of 16 or 18, if I had to guess, it would most likely involve all the legal issues that pertain to awarding minors large amounts of prize money.
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On June 26 2011 04:52 Nagisa. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks. ^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross.
This reminds of Mr Bill Gates. Why? Despite the rags to riches stories that the media would have you believe, Bill Gates was born into a very wealthy, affluent family. Besides him having an enormous, freakish level of intellect(had a computer back in the day where computers took up...how much space in the entire room, and was as common as a family helicopter) - rich parents with connections grant you a level of access to the world that the common person simply would not.
I'm only about halfway through reading the entire thread, but you're raging for the wrong reasons. You seem to recognize that there are legal issues around why you can't compete - if you're really interested and have drive, OK - time to hit the books, kid. Read up everything you can on laws governing age restrictions. Become a mini-lawyer(because you as said yourself, you have access to unlimited time).
Absolute key points:
1) You insist you're the exception to the rule, with regards to 13 year old behavior and conduct. Fair enough. But do you also understand why those of us twice/thrice your age, are hesitant? Can you think and understand from our perspective? Seriously - can you?
2) Laws. Can't change them(unless you can). Hence my points above on studying everything you can with regards to law.
3) Parents. The whole privileged rich mommy/daddy thing. Are you the next Bill Gates? But in this case, the future Bill Gates of Starcraft 2? Where you have access to the world with the snap of your parent's fingers?
Let's think hypothetically and imagine for a moment that suddenly you're qualified to hit the next MLG. Your matches are set to take place during school hours. Ask yourself honestly - mom and dad would be perfectly cool with throwing you on a plane, jetting you to MLG(along with all your assigned homework, oh no no you're not exempt from schoolwork), trusting that you'd find your way around on your own, meeting every single time commitment, AND doing all your school homework/projects in-between tourney matches?
You said GSL. In Korea(but of course). Can you speak Korean, for starters? Can your parents? Oh wait you said they're rich - OK, so they'll just hire a translator to follow you around and escort you to everywhere in Korea(essentially your entourage), correct? What about health concerns? You do know that, when you start eating food in a different country, your body needs time to adjust - won't go into detail, but you know what that entails, right?
The hurdles facing you are immense. If I were you, I'd just enjoy my time at 13 years old and not even think about becoming tournament material. What happens, 1-2 years down the line, you simply get bored of this game? And you make new friends, who aren't video gamers, and you feel the pull to hang out with them, day and night? Life happens.
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On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason??
false, recommended age is 16+, i even think its 12+ i dunno, but that is not required age it says on the box, its recommended.
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On June 26 2011 18:02 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:52 Nagisa. wrote:On June 26 2011 04:51 Sega92 wrote:On June 26 2011 04:47 Pokebunny wrote:
Legal issues. It sucks. ^ Listen to Pokebunny he knows first hand being a young pro lets put it this way, you win GSL at 14 years old, who does the money go to? mom and dad not you...the same things that say kids can't gamble can apply here to winning vast sums of money (i suppose), use the next few years to improve vastly and who knows maybe a gsl win is in your future good luck and don't let it get to you The money doesn't even matter to me, my parents are rich, I was actually planning, if I ever did win GSL I would give all the money back to the community via tournaments or maybe donating to the red cross. This reminds of Mr Bill Gates. Why? Despite the rags to riches stories that the media would have you believe, Bill Gates was born into a very wealthy, affluent family. Besides him having an enormous, freakish level of intellect(had a computer back in the day where computers took up...how much space in the entire room, and was as common as a family helicopter) - rich parents with connections grant you a level of access to the world that the common person simply would not. I'm only about halfway through reading the entire thread, but you're raging for the wrong reasons. You seem to recognize that there are legal issues around why you can't compete - if you're really interested and have drive, OK - time to hit the books, kid. Read up everything you can on laws governing age restrictions. Become a mini-lawyer(because you as said yourself, you have access to unlimited time). Absolute key points: 1) You insist you're the exception to the rule, with regards to 13 year old behavior and conduct. Fair enough. But do you also understand why those of us twice/thrice your age, are hesitant? Can you think and understand from our perspective? Seriously - can you? 2) Laws. Can't change them(unless you can). Hence my points above on studying everything you can with regards to law. 3) Parents. The whole privileged rich mommy/daddy thing. Are you the next Bill Gates? But in this case, the future Bill Gates of Starcraft 2? Where you have access to the world with the snap of your parent's fingers? Let's think hypothetically and imagine for a moment that suddenly you're qualified to hit the next MLG. Your matches are set to take place during school hours. Ask yourself honestly - mom and dad would be perfectly cool with throwing you on a plane, jetting you to MLG(along with all your assigned homework, oh no no you're not exempt from schoolwork), trusting that you'd find your way around on your own, meeting every single time commitment, AND doing all your school homework/projects in-between tourney matches? You said GSL. In Korea(but of course). Can you speak Korean, for starters? Can your parents? Oh wait you said they're rich - OK, so they'll just hire a translator to follow you around and escort you to everywhere in Korea(essentially your entourage), correct? What about health concerns? You do know that, when you start eating food in a different country, your body needs time to adjust - won't go into detail, but you know what that entails, right? The hurdles facing you are immense. If I were you, I'd just enjoy my time at 13 years old and not even think about becoming tournament material. What happens, 1-2 years down the line, you simply get bored of this game? And you make new friends, who aren't video gamers, and you feel the pull to hang out with them, day and night? Life happens.
lol people that come out and just say "my parents are rich" at that age, i find more often then not they are lying. So many people at that age wanted you to beleive they come from a rich family, especially on the internet i wouldnt beleive it lol. Ive never actually heard someone from an actual wealthy family come out and say "my parents are rich" anyone else ever notice that? Alot of times they will say "my father or mother does this" and yoou can assume wealth but they dont usually just say it. Its usually people that are more insecure about it that will come out and say something like that. In highschool the wealthiest kids i knew i couldnt even tell at all , until i got invited over to their mansions..... lol
It could easily be true, but what is a 13 year olds perception of rich anyways? I mean that is a very subjective term, a 13 year old could easily think because his parents each make 40-60k a year that they are rich. I mean he said he went to a public school, any extremely wealthy family's that i know they all sent their kids to private schools thats just the way it works usually not to say i didnt know rich kids in public school ( i went to both private and public) but the kids i knew in private school who were wealthy were much much wealthier (dads president of lions gate studio's/ Owner of a very large international travel agency)
Im just saying just because some kid says his parents are wealthy on the internet does not mean its true, I knew alot of people who said their parents were rich IRL(and they werent) and its sure a hell of alot easier to do online
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On June 26 2011 14:32 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:17 v1dom wrote:
As a leader of an eSports team, I can give you a few reasons we don't accept or consider players under 18.
1. Contracts for persons under 18 have to be signed by a parent/guardian, and it's up to the parent/guardian to be responsible for the child. Imagine an underage player breaks their contract, and I literally have to call their mom to discuss legal ramifications of their actions. In my WC3 days, I had to do this once, and it was completely embarrassing for everyone involved, including me.
2. Due to the fact that most persons under 18 are in school, this presents issues with availability and reliability. MLG events, for example, always start at 10am on a Friday morning, when you're sitting in class (outside the summer months). Are your parents going to let you skip school to compete? Can you stay up til 1am for a match against a European team?
3. Children are erratic. Most kids (even ones taking the game seriously) have issues with a wide range of erratic behavoir and unreliability. Adults are (for the most part, but not always) stable, with stable schedules and the time and money to invest in their game without being reliant on anyone but themselves. You can't drive to LAN events (or anywhere). How will you get to the LAN event 3 hours from your house? Is your guardian's dedication to the game as strong as your own?
4. Travel to major events (interstate): Are your parents going to let you fly to MLG and other events alone? Most hotels require a person over 21 to be present in the room. Do you realize that I, your manager, would be legally responsible for you as your "guardian" if not accompanied by a parent? If you got hit by a bus, or lost in the city, or were just a pint sized hellion and went out on the town drinking, I would be legally liable for anything and everything you did. The players on my team are all grown adults - the definition of professionals - and I still reiterate to them that when they room with each other at major events, that I am not responsible for what happens in their room(s).
5. Many major tournaments require that you be 18+ to compete or accept prizes.
These are just a few reasons. I certainly don't "hate on" underage players, but in order for me personally to consider a player under 18, their skill level would have to vastly outweigh the RISKS (and they are), I've outlined above.
You mentioned Pokebunny in your OP. This is an example of a young man who is the "one in a million," with both the talent, professionalism and history to warrant being on a professional team. For every one Pokebunny (and he may be one of a kind outside Korea), there are probably thousands or hundreds of thousands who aren't.
Edit: If you are the second in a million, with top grandmaster talent, a stable attitude (unlikely since you've admitted you've bad mannered in the recent past), parents who are completely understanding and supporting of your hobby, and willing to discuss year-long legal contracts, which will bind their 13 year old son to what amounts essentially to a close-to-full-time job, don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Domino
4Kings
I don't think this post can be stressed enough. Especially for all the kiddies still saying 'But I'm mature for my age and not like everyone else, it's not fair'.
This is why OP! It's mainly a liability issue, which for the most part you cannot change. If you want to enter a tournament like MLG, bring your parents/guardian.
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On June 26 2011 17:38 RedJustice wrote:
The annoying/immature stereotypes are answers for why he is not accepted on a team, but certainly not good reasons. You don't know the OP, don't make dumb statements about him as a person based off your stereotypes.
Try running a team and welcoming the 13-year-old players sometime. While you're right that there is tremendous variation in maturity at that age, there are also patterns of flaky behavior that are so common across many different kids that eventually the people I know who have tried to accommodate it, in their WoW guilds or whatever, just get sick of feeling like they're running video game day care.
Do some truly exceptional 13-year-olds miss out on an opportunity to participate fully because of this? Probably. The good news is that in a few years most 13-year-olds will have all those options open to them.
All that said, I can't see any reason the OP can't find a team appropriate to his skill level if he looks for it, because at his ranking there shouldn't be any question about whether a team would want to send him to offline tournaments or sign a contract.
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It hard to depend on younger kids to join tournaments, because when I was 9, I was one of the top players in my clan for CS but my parents wouldn't let me fly out to tournaments even if the clan leader offered to pay for my tickets, and the same applies to most other kids. Even if there is a chance in winning a couple thousand dollars, even if you want to you are not allowed to make the decision yourself.
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On June 26 2011 18:02 D_K_night wrote:
Let's think hypothetically and imagine for a moment that suddenly you're qualified to hit the next MLG. Your matches are set to take place during school hours. Ask yourself honestly - mom and dad would be perfectly cool with throwing you on a plane, jetting you to MLG(along with all your assigned homework, oh no no you're not exempt from schoolwork), trusting that you'd find your way around on your own, meeting every single time commitment, AND doing all your school homework/projects in-between tourney matches?
Ever heard of college? That's kind of the same thing, except for people over 18.
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On June 27 2011 00:05 NintendoStar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:02 D_K_night wrote:
Let's think hypothetically and imagine for a moment that suddenly you're qualified to hit the next MLG. Your matches are set to take place during school hours. Ask yourself honestly - mom and dad would be perfectly cool with throwing you on a plane, jetting you to MLG(along with all your assigned homework, oh no no you're not exempt from schoolwork), trusting that you'd find your way around on your own, meeting every single time commitment, AND doing all your school homework/projects in-between tourney matches?
Ever heard of college? That's kind of the same thing, except for people over 18.
Yes, but when you're 18 you have a responsibility towards yourself. You are also considered an adult and free to do whatever you want.
Plus/minus for parent restrictions and death-threats that you're still living under their roof.
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On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:
Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time.
I'm afraid it's comments like this that prove your naivety. I don't mean to be a dick, but until you start to understand why what you've said is unbelievably ignorant, you won't be considered 'mature'.
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when you're 18 and the coin is flipped you will understand. how is there such a long discussion on this subject.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2011 00:16 Sahand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:
Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time. I'm afraid it's comments like this that prove your naivety. I don't mean to be a dick, but until you start to understand why what you've said is unbelievably ignorant, you won't be considered 'mature'.
I don't understand why this is ignorant. OP is correct that a job or higher education is more demanding than public school. The 18-25 demographic has a higher proportion of successful competitive SC2 players because they have, in many cases, decided not to have traditional jobs and instead devote that time to practice. School at 13 is not a consuming thing like college or a full-time job can be. Add average parents into the mix and they're just grateful that their child has chosen to do something that is mentally stimulating, social, and competitive with the extra time. See Day9 Daily #100! Especially given that SC is a 1v1 game, as long as the 13 year old can explain how they beat you later there is nothing inherently worse about a player in that age group.
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Because you said girls. You should have said women, or else I wouldn't have been able to tell
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There's a 9 year old street fighter player. He's attending a lot of tournaments in the last weeks. His parents support his hobby and always visit the tournaments with him together. I guess thats the only way for you at the moment.
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Also, if you're not qualified for tourneys, train harder until you are :D
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1st of all you shouldn't compare racism to people not giving you enough credit just because you are young. If you have sex with a black/asian woman with her consent is okay, but having sex with a minor is a felony. Some decisions are not your to make until you reach a certain age, so age is a factor in this, while age is not.
2nd thing, I don't think people look down on you because you are young. I like VT.Pokebunny a lot and he is only nine. As I said earlier at some age you are not allowed to compete, mostly because of legal issues and parental consent.
You can't say: "I am a minor, but I am way smarter than many people who own a driver's license. Why should I not be allowed to own a driver's license then ? Or take my fair exam."
I know things look unfair when you are young, but trust me, it's way better to not allow individuals under a certain age to participate in tournaments than not to have specific policies about age and get lawsuits, criticism and more....
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they hate you bro 'bus you are 13 and you are masters already :D
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On June 27 2011 01:09 AGsc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2011 00:16 Sahand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:06 Nagisa. wrote:
Again.. Not EVERY single child has to "ask their parent's permission" for everything. It's just another generalization, infact the majority of my friends 95% don't have to do that at all. I think a Job is more demanding than parents + public school. If anything 13 is where everyone should be hitting their prime, you have almost unlimited time. I'm afraid it's comments like this that prove your naivety. I don't mean to be a dick, but until you start to understand why what you've said is unbelievably ignorant, you won't be considered 'mature'. I'm 22, graduating with an MA, and I don't understand why this is "unbelievably ignorant." OP is correct that a job or higher education is more demanding than public school.. If not.. what kind of job are you working? The 18-25 demographic has a higher proportion of successful competitive SC2 players because they have, in many cases, decided not to have traditional jobs and instead devote that time to practice. 13 is grade 8, maybe grade 9. I seem to remember school at that point, and until about my 4th year of college, requiring little to no effort. Add average parents into the mix and they're just grateful that their child has chosen to do something that is mentally stimulating, social, and competitive with the extra time. See Day9 Daily #100! Especially given that SC2 is a 1v1 game, as long as the 13 year old can explain how they beat you later there is nothing inherently worse about a player in that age group.
It isn't about the ability, it is about the legal issue of people being allowed to compete, yeah you can have a high level of game-play, but you are still under your parent's custody.
@ both the OP and the guy I'm responding to
He says that 95% of his friends doesn't have to ask for their parent's permission, he is probably thinking about doing some minor things, I would like to see how far he could get before the age where he can become legally dependant.
Think about it right now if he did something stupid like rob a store with a gun, would the law hold him or his parents responsible? In certain cases if he shot and killed he can be trailed as an "Adult", but at that age they are still considered a juvenile.
@OP
Consider this, if you were just to get up right now and walk out of your house with everything you own, (you probably never had a job yet) so with absolutely nothing not even clothing. Would people think you are a lost kid or some random hobo?
If you have a dream, you can still wait a few years for it, and while you are doing it you can join random local tournaments and start to get known, before you know it you will be playing on the big stage. Many to all BW progamers, even though SC is big in Korea, their parents were fully opposed to them doing so, because many people drop out of school to practice due to the competitiveness of the game. If they don't make it like the other thousand people that are just as skilled as they are, what are they going to do? Some have already dropped out of school or are behind, and who funds them as they fly out to tournaments, for their everyday needs, computer,electric, etc? It is their parents.
At your age, where would you get the money to do all of that? You would have to ask your parents right? That is permission outside of your house, and inside it they are granting your access to it, it is a privilege that you are taking for granted. Your parents can just take everything in your room right now away from you since they paid for it.
You don't have to ask your parent's permission for everything, but there are a lot of things you have to ask for, the rest is granted, and they can take it away from you if they wanted to.
^^That's why the other guy said it was unbelievably ignorant, because the kid doesn't realize the power that his parents hold over him right now, and the amount of stuff he has right now he is taking for granted. He could say that he doesn't have to ask his parents permission, but those forms requiring parent's signature if they aren't over a certain age aren't going to sign themselves.
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On June 26 2011 04:04 _Nano_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 04:02 Mike-965 wrote:
Starcraft 2 is 16+, isn't it?
So you are actually not allowed to play it. Maybe that's also part of the reason?? no its not its 12+ in europe
Really?
My gamebox says PEGI 16???
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lmfao winning a gsl. Keep on dreaming in your little world. 1400 masters?? lol!!
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Unfortunately every group is represented by the loudest ones within it, and I hate to say it, but most loud kids are idiots. By loud I obviously mean the ones who stir up the most attention.
For large groups in general this isn't much of an issue, but for minority groups, that's how they get generalized.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 27 2011 01:53 Fuoeh wrote:
lmfao winning a gsl. Keep on dreaming in your little world. 1400 masters?? lol!!
man your being pretty mean. He said one GSL game not series or match Also, he wonders about the age thing. And to be honest you really are immature whether you want to accept it or not physiologically you are no where near fully mature (brain and body) and you will react as a result. Hormones and the lack of a fully formed frontal cortex will result in you acting certain ways whether you want to or not without the option of changing your behaviour in the future unless you get older. Tournament organizers just dont want to deal with off the cuff lack of maturity issues that may crop up thats all. Bide your time keep practicing and play some customs or join online small tourneys without an age restriction and you will be fine.
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When I played Starcraft 1 and Myth 2 back in the day, I pretended to be older than I was. I was 16 and told everyone I was 18-21. It allowed me to bypass many of those issues
Not saying you should lie, but I understand where you're coming from
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On June 27 2011 01:20 MindRush wrote:
2nd thing, I don't think people look down on you because you are young. I like VT.Pokebunny a lot and he is only nine.
I laughed hard at that. Pokebunny is 15.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
13 year olds are annoying whether or not they say they are mature or think that they aren't annoying, you could call it ageism but the thing is most people are young adults/teenagers and don't really want to hang out with a kid.
As far as the professional side goes, kids can't be relied on to attend events or do community stuff and they cannot legally sign contracts. They are also pretty unreliable in general, you have no way of knowing if they are actually serious about becoming a serious competitor and are actually going to train hard or if they are gonna get bored of the game after a while and if real life obligations will take precedent, since children generally don't have any commitments and don't have the experience to properly manage their life.
1.4k masters isn't very good though considering your goals, you are far from joining a salaried team as it is so I wouldn't really worry about it
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everyone here is going to bullshit you and say it's because you need parental permission and there can be legal issues and stuff, but if you pay attention to gaming and the internet at all, it's fact that people just hate kids for whatever reason. many of them are annoying, yes, but they'll just blindly hate everyone.
if you've played a lot of shooters, you'll understand why kids get a bad rap. many of them are annoying. but people tend to stereotype and hate all kids, even if there was nothing annoying or obnoxious about them. there was a kid who i used to play Left 4 Dead with all the time. The team consisted of me, my best RL friend, a random player we'd pick up in the lobby, and this 11 year old kid we met through random teams. This kid was incredibly well-spoken, and was GODLY at the game. just by sound, he'd know where every single threat was, he'd call them out perfectly, and often take them out before we could even look at them. yet often we'd have to kick our random 4th teammate because they wouldn't stop bitching about the fact that this kid was, well, a kid.
well written as this post may be, you can't really sway anyone with a post. if you think you're a top player, prove that you're a top player. rank higher, take out notable names, and share a lot of replays. if you can really establish yourself as a name that isn't to be fucked with, you'll gain a lot of respect. you'll never win over everyone, but that can be said for absolutely anyone.
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Bcuz ur bragging about ur rank in the op.
I am 1600 master random and am 8 years old.
Problem?
Ps: 13 year olds have really annoying voices.
User was warned for this post
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On June 27 2011 02:06 universalwill wrote:
if you've played a lot of shooters, you'll understand why kids get a bad rap. many of them are annoying. but people tend to stereotype and hate all kids, even if there was nothing annoying or obnoxious about them. there was a kid who i used to play Left 4 Dead with all the time. The team consisted of me, my best RL friend, a random player we'd pick up in the lobby, and this 11 year old kid we met through random teams. This kid was incredibly well-spoken, and was GODLY at the game. just by sound, he'd know where every single threat was, he'd call them out perfectly, and often take them out before we could even look at them. yet often we'd have to kick our random 4th teammate because they wouldn't stop bitching about the fact that this kid was, well, a kid.
I used to direct youth community theatre with I was in my late teen, and there are always some cool kids there that were respectful, talented and fun to hang out with.
But they where a small handful compared the busload of screaming 13 year olds that wanted to just horse around and gossip about other 13 year olds.
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On June 27 2011 02:10 Depetrify wrote:
Bcuz ur bragging about ur rank in the op.
I am 1600 master random and am 8 years old.
Problem?
Ps: 13 year olds have really annoying voices.
What's next?
Is a 6 year old going to hop on start pimping his Kerrigan portrait?
This thread is like Russian dolls; you pull off one swaggering kid, and there's a smaller one is inside.
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Good luck Nagisa. I think the world in general discriminates against "children," and that will carry over into starcraft. You are clearly intelligent and capable, so I suggest pursuing every opportunity you get and working hard, and it will pay off as you get older.
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On June 27 2011 02:06 universalwill wrote:
everyone here is going to bullshit you and say it's because you need parental permission and there can be legal issues and stuff, but if you pay attention to gaming and the internet at all, it's fact that people just hate kids for whatever reason. many of them are annoying, yes, but they'll just blindly hate everyone.
if you've played a lot of shooters, you'll understand why kids get a bad rap. many of them are annoying. but people tend to stereotype and hate all kids, even if there was nothing annoying or obnoxious about them. there was a kid who i used to play Left 4 Dead with all the time. The team consisted of me, my best RL friend, a random player we'd pick up in the lobby, and this 11 year old kid we met through random teams. This kid was incredibly well-spoken, and was GODLY at the game. just by sound, he'd know where every single threat was, he'd call them out perfectly, and often take them out before we could even look at them. yet often we'd have to kick our random 4th teammate because they wouldn't stop bitching about the fact that this kid was, well, a kid.
well written as this post may be, you can't really sway anyone with a post. if you think you're a top player, prove that you're a top player. rank higher, take out notable names, and share a lot of replays. if you can really establish yourself as a name that isn't to be fucked with, you'll gain a lot of respect. you'll never win over everyone, but that can be said for absolutely anyone.
You are making a generalization that everyone blindly hates kids. Your teammate can be the best person, but if tournaments don't allow it or there are legal issues with it, it doesn't matter.
It is all about risk vs reward
If a tournament allows kids the OP's age then join them and place first, if you start the build up a reputation like Universal said, then they might allow you as an exception into tournaments, there have been in the past, but you have to become good enough that your parents will allow you to compete with no regret. They most likely want the OP to be successful in life, but if he is going to risk everything and fail, it is better to not do it at all if he is going to fail for the rest of his life or within the next few years.
There was a period where KT.Flash (was about your age) wanted to go into progaming, but his parents disapproved, so what he did was he made a deal with his parents that if he cannot make the team within 1 month or so, he will give up his dream and come back home.
At the tryouts for the team, there were hundreds of players of all the same age and about the same skill, do you know how many of them made it?
Progaming - getting there is extremely hard, and some of the money you make is based off of tournament winnings, thousands try, few make it.
School -> Job - more stable, you may or may not like it, but it should pay off in the long run.
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This is one of those "you'll understand when you're older" sort of things. You won't want to have a 13 year old on your gaming team when you are in your 20s either.
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On June 26 2011 13:34 hatt wrote:Has anyone mentioned or heard of Lil Poison? Sure he plays Halo, but he just goes to show you age doesn't have to limit you if your parents support you and you are determined enough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lil_Poisonhttp://lilpoison.com/biography.htmlHe was literally playing in national tournaments at the age of 5 and was 4 when he started local tournaments. Edit: Oh and the game he plays is rated M, those are guidelines or he still wouldn't be able to play it for 4 years...
In His case he always attended with his Uncle Poison, a Halo Pro Gamer. He didn't have any issues getting into the scene because his uncle was already in it. The fact he grew up watching his Uncle and idolising him and then copied (hence lil poison) is probably why he was so readily accepted where most younger players on xbox live are considered a scourge.
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Because 90% of kids/young teenagers are idiotic and unreasonable. On the other hand, any competitive player who's that age probably wouldn't fit into that.
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Think of it as this way. The US government made it so you have to be 21 or older to drink.
They assume 20 year old 19, 18 etc arent responsible enough to have this privilege, or else consequences will occur like accidents and even death.
In your case. Annoying, immature behavior, which admins don't want to waste their time on.
So just wait another couple years, mean time try to get into grand masters if you even want to be in GSL.
On June 27 2011 02:10 Depetrify wrote:
I am 1600 master random and am 8 years old.
Problem?
Ps: 13 year olds have really annoying voices.
User was warned for this post
and 8 year olds have even more annoying voices
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You think posting on TL matters? ANYONE can act mature on the internet, thats the reason why people go on it. You might have a really well written post, but how do i know you won't rage and cry when i beat you? And plus, young people aren't as psychologically developed/mature as 18+. This plus legal reasons is really why.
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maybe you should call leenock_fou up and ask why no one hates on him?
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On June 27 2011 02:02 prOpSaiton wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 01:20 MindRush wrote:
2nd thing, I don't think people look down on you because you are young. I like VT.Pokebunny a lot and he is only nine. I laughed hard at that. Pokebunny is 15.
I saw that too and did a double take. And then I laughed.
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Wow, we're really busting a 13 year-old's chops today. LOL.
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Listen, I'd love to give input, but I can't even find a tournament in any of these threads that host silvers and allow us to stay home. But maybe most people under eighteen (especially under sixteen) don't have a lot of maturity. They usually are highly immature.
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Lol you cant join a team because ur not pro skill mostly, you shouldnt compare yourself to pokebunny until you make it to top level gm. There are 1000's of people better then you just in NA at this point. Keep practicing and if u get good enough a team will want you.
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I envy you guys so much. 13 and playing sc2......wish I was at your age now.
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I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do
Fucking classic.
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Yeah, "I'm mature for my age and should be treated special" is the motto of the spoiled and immature.
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im a 13 year old low masters terran with same problem.
oh this looks like a fun tourney to play in, 100 people, wait its 16+
wtf
stop discrminiating
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On June 27 2011 05:34 Sympathy wrote:
im a 13 year old low masters terran with same problem.
oh this looks like a fun tourney to play in, 100 people, wait its 16+
wtf
stop discrminiating
This is ignorant... Come on "discriminating." That holds as much logic as; I am in the military and shouldn't have to go through security checks at the air port, that is idiotic.
I have read through almost all of the posts in this thread and most of them are pretty valid reasons, but I think one is missing. Its a rule plain and simple. I joined the military at 17 and could not drink till I was 21 was it fair?? No it was not because I could die for my country but not legally drink a beer. So I decided to suck it up and wait to "legally" drink at the age of 21. The fact that Original Poster says how mature he is shows his immaturity. Look at this optimistically; you are 13? you have 3 years to practice and hone your skills before a real tournament. At 13 I had all the time in the world to invest in games so I personally was better than older players. Do not get me wrong I love challenging the rules and testing the limits but I know as an adult that rules are rules. They can be changed and their are exceptions but I do not go around complaining about them.
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Us kids dont have much power. Learn to deal with it and show them your better
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On June 27 2011 03:45 BushidoSnipr wrote:
You think posting on TL matters? ANYONE can act mature on the internet, thats the reason why people go on it. You might have a really well written post, but how do i know you won't rage and cry when i beat you? And plus, young people aren't as psychologically developed/mature as 18+. This plus legal reasons is really why.
Idra still gets invited to stuff though.
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It´s kind of like being in a physical state to be able to go to war and not being allowed to drink,
18 to go to war and have to be 21 to drink.
Able to get to Master but not allowed to be in tournaments.
Im 14 take it from me its annoying when people judge you by your age.
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On June 27 2011 05:26 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Yeah, "I'm mature for my age and should be treated special" is the motto of the spoiled and immature.
I was thinking the same thing..
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On June 27 2011 04:26 Bleak wrote:
I envy you guys so much. 13 and playing sc2......wish I was at your age now.
I dont know what time you are from, but when i was 13 i was playing much better games than sc2 Or at least so it seemed, maybe today they'd suck.
It really pains me when 13 year olds think they are mature. I did too when i was 13. Actually every 13 year old in the world thinks they are mature, smart and should be treated like an adult. Every single one. I think it's one of the most cliche things you can say as a 13 year old, lol :D
In 5+ years, go back to this thread and i promise you that you'll have a different view on things.
Just accept it and move on. And accept the simple fact that age matters, and that you arent so different to the average 13 year old.
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imo just lie about your age, when entering tournies.
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You can still get rank 1 grandmasters at 13. Sounds like a good step towards that GSL medal, champ
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On June 27 2011 07:22 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 04:26 Bleak wrote:
I envy you guys so much. 13 and playing sc2......wish I was at your age now.
I dont know what time you are from, but when i was 13 i was playing much better games than sc2 Or at least so it seemed, maybe today they'd suck. It really pains me when 13 year olds think they are mature. I did too when i was 13. Actually every 13 year old in the world thinks they are mature, smart and should be treated like an adult. Every single one. I think it's one of the most cliche things you can say as a 13 year old, lol :D In 5+ years, go back to this thread and i promise you that you'll have a different view on things. Just accept it and move on. And accept the simple fact that age matters, and that you arent so different to the average 13 year old.
There is so much truth in your post sir. I am going to wait 5 years for the OP to bump this thread up with his new thoughts :D
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On June 27 2011 06:16 Brunaland wrote:
It´s kind of like being in a physical state to be able to go to war and not being allowed to drink,
18 to go to war and have to be 21 to drink.
What? I have no idea what you are saying. My argument was its a slap in the face to be able to sacrifice the lives of 18 year old men and women then not allow them to drink when they come home. But its a law and rule so as an adult I understand. Even men and women of 21 years of age and older cant drink moderately.
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On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2.
The two bolded parts are contradictory to each other.
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On June 27 2011 09:59 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2. The two bolded parts are contradictory to each other.
He is obviously being sarcastic there, he is trying to say he would like to take the game seriously going forward and possibly get involved in the tournament scene as he gets better, 1400 Masters at age 13 is not bad at all, he has lots of time to develop and get better, stop taking everything so literally.
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With age comes independence, at 13 you're not in control of a number of aspects of your life which can largely affect your ability to be a pro-gamer.
In terms of risks when hosting a tournament, yes there are risks by having people 16+ not attending due to work commitments and the like, but the risks are much higher the younger you go. Yes, there are a few <16 year olds who show maturity and are capable of competing on a decent level but the facts are that the large majority of younger players are less mature and less responsible than the average 16+ player. If you're hosting a tournament, specifying 16+ or 18+ age requirement is simply a measure taken to avoid a higher risk demographic.
Everyone thinks they are mature but it is a fact that when you're older you will perpetually say "I'm glad I wasn't the immature and clueless person I was 5 years ago".
When you're 25 you will look back at yourself at the age of 20 and think that you were clueless and immature then, when you are 40 you will look back at the age of 35 and think you were clueless and immature.
My point is that although you may think you're mature because you don't do a bunch of stupid smilies xD ;D ^.^ the fact remains that everyone always thinks they are currently more mature than they really are.
Stop trying to grow up so fast and enjoy your childhood, or move to Korea if you've got the dedication. Although, would your parents let you?
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On June 27 2011 10:15 Tektos wrote:
When you're 25 you will look back at yourself at the age of 20 and think that you were clueless and immature then, when you are 40 you will look back at the age of 35 and think you were clueless and immature.
Eh, I don't know, speaking as a 40 year old, I think one's maturity stabilizes a little bit in your early 30s.
We can check back in 20 years to see how OP is doing.
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On June 27 2011 10:08 Rasun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:59 Holcan wrote:On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2. The two bolded parts are contradictory to each other. He is obviously being sarcastic there, he is trying to say he would like to take the game seriously going forward and possibly get involved in the tournament scene as he gets better, 1400 Masters at age 13 is not bad at all, he has lots of time to develop and get better, stop taking everything so literally.
I highly doubt you use sarcasm in a serious post, the OP clearly has an incorrect image of professional gamers in his mind, where a 20 year old tends to have had a job, graduate highschool, have his own apartment. Its not universally true, but to be so ignorant to what esports is, a hobby for most people, and degrade it by saying that he is aspiring to become a GSL winner, as if anyone and everyone is able to do it, without you know, talent, and an incredible amount of sacrifice. Young people always think they are more mature than they are, its just a universal truth.
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The Admins shouldn't be ignoring you if your questions are asked in a polite way, there's no excuses for that regardless of your age.
Also 13 yr old is too young to go around traveling around the world to tournaments alone. I doubt your parents would consent to it too. Do you really want to show up in a MLG with your mom and/or dad?
Just wait until you finish high school, keep playing SC2 still of course, by the time the final expansion comes out you'll be at your peak potentially and kick us dinosaurs around. Right now playing online is good enough while you focus on school and enjoying other aspects of life. In the end most kids, especially boys from 13 to 21 are immature and these rules are in place so the tournaments don't have some sort of liability or break some labor laws or whatever. You'll be 16 soon enough.
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On June 27 2011 10:31 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 10:08 Rasun wrote:On June 27 2011 09:59 Holcan wrote:On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2. The two bolded parts are contradictory to each other. He is obviously being sarcastic there, he is trying to say he would like to take the game seriously going forward and possibly get involved in the tournament scene as he gets better, 1400 Masters at age 13 is not bad at all, he has lots of time to develop and get better, stop taking everything so literally. I highly doubt you use sarcasm in a serious post, the OP clearly has an incorrect image of professional gamers in his mind, where a 20 year old tends to have had a job, graduate highschool, have his own apartment. Its not universally true, but to be so ignorant to what esports is, a hobby for most people, and degrade it by saying that he is aspiring to become a GSL winner, as if anyone and everyone is able to do it, without you know, talent, and an incredible amount of sacrifice. Young people always think they are more mature than they are, its just a universal truth.
Having ambition to achieve something with professional gaming is degrading it? Are you actually serious? People aspire to be all sorts of things IRL... professional athletes, head of their field, etc.
I think you should stop posting complete bullshit.
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American Heritage Medical Dictionary:
mature ma·ture
adj.
1. Having reached full natural growth or development.
2. Of, relating to, or characteristic of full mental or physical development.
You, no matter how hard you try, are not mature.
Don't go around parading your age, let your skill speak for itself. Good Luck.
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Omg this thread is truly inspiring thread to me because I am also 13 years old and I practice about 4-5 hours a day. I'm 1500 masters and I want to see if I can be a programer :p
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Having looked up all the kid's ranks on sc2ranks and seeing none appear to be a prodigy and simply hover around 50% win-rate I'd say worry about school
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On June 27 2011 09:59 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
Disclaimer: I have made lots of mistakes in my past regarding my attitude, I've even gotten banned on TL for dis-respect, which I am currently trying to change.
Hi guys, my names Nagisa and I'm a 13 year old 1400 Masters Terran player aspiring for a GSL win, but I find it extremely interesting that most tournaments are 16+ or 18+, why? I have to go out of my way, talk to admins for 30 minutes to hours, wait for responses that don't come. I don't understand just because some of us are immature means that the rest of us have to suffer? I know plenty of 20 year old's that act MUCH more immature than I do. Oh and the best part being if anyone ever catches wind of me being 13, I get hounded on, my ignore list is becoming my best friend on SC2. The two bolded parts are contradictory to each other.
Uhhh, what? Those statements are completely unrelated to each other. I wanna know what this kid is doing hanging out with 20 year olds though...
On June 27 2011 11:38 Tenks wrote:
Having looked up all the kid's ranks on sc2ranks and seeing none appear to be a prodigy and simply hover around 50% win-rate I'd say worry about school
You do realize that the Bnet ladder TRIES to get everyone to have a 50% win rate right? Though he is right about keeping up with school. (Least through High School, the notion that you should go right into college is BS in my mind. It is much better to wait to do College when you actually care about the classes and are not just trying to "get it over with")
@OP
That sucks man, I didn't realize there were such age restrictions for tourneys and teams. I suppose it's just protecting themselves legally though, usually such sweeping generalizations like that are just to protect their own backsides. Actually now that I think about it it might be in relation to awarding the prize money? (no idea, but that would definitely qualify as a legal issue)
Hopefully you can find at least some events that will be willing to work with you, or at the very least wait out the 3-5 years without loosing your motivation. If you can keep getting better from where you are now you'll be able to rock out later on when your able to compete, sucks to be forced to wait to get your toes wet though.
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I remember there was a 12 year old kid in GSL quite a few months ago
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Hi 13 years old, after reading your post I feel the need to insult you. It's typical of a kid thinking that adults are less immature then them, but the fact is you are still leeching your parents money. It doesn't matter if you are master or bronze, 13 years old deserve nothing. You fucking kids cry all day about the world is imba, not treating you with respect. You must be thinking now that my words are "immature" and disrespectful, the problem is why should anyone talk to a 13 years old seriously and with respect?
User was warned for this post
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2 of my players are 13 or under the rest are of us 18 or over, but they have been fine
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I remember there was a 12 year old kid in GSL quite a few months ago
Maru(?)Prime was in the first GSL if I recall correctly. Bastard took out Cella. D:<
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"Being to young for XY" is and always was a statement that is horrible because it's too generalizing.
Yes, most people at a certain age tend to be a certain way.
Also, yes, most women/men/blacks/whites/gays/asexuals/gothics/hiphoppers TEND to be a certain way.
I did a LOT of things which I was "too young for" and it didn't always turn out well.
However, that approach also lead to me making a living off poker while I wasn't even legal to play it, having seen half the world and getting hundreds of experiences I wouldn't want to miss from todays perspective.
Am I lucky? Yes, maybe.
Is it worth trying? I don't know, it's your life.
Will anyone (including you) know whether something is right or not? No, definitly.
fighting~!!
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I have seen a lot of people saying that "College is way more difficult than middle school/high school - it wouldn't be a problem." The difficulty isn't the issue, it is the time commitment. Public schools demand 7 hours of every weekday, whereas in college you may only be in class for a couple of hours a day with a much more flexible schedule more conducive to competing.
Also, I don't care how "mature" you are for your age. For every extremely mature 14 year old, there is an equally mature for his age 21 year old. If I was managing a team, I would sign the 21 year old every time because all things being equal, the 21 year old will have more experience and be more reliable.
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There are several reasons why teams and tournaments specify participants being over a certain age, and many of those reasons have already been stated by many people. Here are just my own thoughts on it.
Getting away from things regarding parents and legal issues, because those things seem fairly black and white (at least in my eyes), I tend to think a lot of organizations don't want to take "risks" with regard to younger players because of the overall mentality of younger people. Not necessarily their overall maturity, but actually the way they think. Generally speaking many kids do not always grasp the big picture of a lot of circumstances. I lot of teams and especially organizations like to put out an image of professionalism to the public, and merely having a young teen on the team, even if they were exceptional, takes away a little bit from that image. Players represent their sponsors, and it is a contractual obligation to do so. Many organizations would not trust a child to uphold their image.
On June 26 2011 03:55 Nagisa. wrote:
… just as we don't treat girls or other ethnicities with disrespect we shouldn't go out of our way to flame kids who don't know better.
I'm glad you think this community doesn't do that, but that sure tells me you don't follow a whole lot of drama that arises in the SC community. It doesn't happen all that often at TL because, thankfully, these forums are pretty well mod'd. However, the world can be a cruel place sometimes, and I guarantee that you have only witnessed a very, very, very small portion that you could possibly be receiving.
But really, why not be a kid for a little?
If you like to play, keep playing. If you want to prove yourself get to GM 1. If you want to be a GSL champion that's cool, but don't you wanna be a kid… at least for a little bit? You've got the rest of your life to work, enjoy your time where you're not burdened by contracts and bills and taxes and legal documents and whatever else there is out there (ugh). Just play, have fun, and enjoy life for the simplicities that it has.
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Just deal with it. If you're mature enough to be around adults, they'll eventually treat you with respect. Approach these experiences as if age wasn't a factor, and most of the community with simply overlook it.
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On June 27 2011 12:19 Hammertime wrote:Maru(?)Prime was in the first GSL if I recall correctly. Bastard took out Cella. D:<
Now it's serious. Ban all under 13's from GSL. Go go Cella <3
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If you were a 1400 masters zerg, that'd be a whole notha story
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I'm from a few games like Crossfire, Soldier Front, where I would say I played professionally (As in got to the round of 4 of some national leagues), and the real problems that occur with kids I find is that most of the time they don't show up to practices or they randomly leave during tournament games, due to their parents calling them or w/e. The time is just too restricted when you depend on your parents.
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One thing this thread has proven is that indeed many adults are very prejudiced against younger folk. Many of the posts say things like "13 year olds cannot understand what it means to be mature" and pick on lines or posts by the OP and say "look how immature this seems".
The fact is young people are systematically marginalized in western culture by our laws and by sociological judgement in a way that if applied to any other group of people would be pure prejudice. Is it not clear that there is at least some person younger than 18 that might be smart enough to vote? It is not clear that there is at least one person younger than 16 (or whatever age) that is capable of driving safely? Is it not clear that the age that one can maturely decide when and how much to drink is different for each person? But the laws and lawmakers are lazy. Instead of judging a person on their personality we apply the worst criteria... we pick an arbitrary line and use that to judge people. Our justification? It is too hard to judge a person on their qualities... so we MUST pre-judge them.
To the OP: Unfortunately you are in a group that is marginalized. If you are lucky when you reach 16 or 18 you will pass out of that group and people will start taking you more seriously. The fact that tourneys and teams are less likely to deal with you now is because the marginalization that is written into our laws makes it hard for them to deal with you and makes it easy for them to ignore you. Alas a major lesson one must learn to gain maturity is that you will constantly be misjudged based on silly factors and at best we can count ourselves lucky that the list of factors you will be judged on is at least shrinking (or so it appears) so we are no longer subjected to racial, religious, sexual discrimination to the same degree as in the past.
Best of luck man. Practice hard and force people to recognize you. That is how every person, young or old, gains respect.
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Nagisa, you sound like a very responsible and mature person for your age. There is no appropriate reason why anyone should be hounding you in tournaments and such so long as you don't provoke them.
Regarding teams or certain tourneys who have age limit requirements, however, the truth of the matter is, allowing minors (<18) does indeed present a series of risks to the managers. Although this may not be your case, many minors will still have protective and/or over-protective parents. This causes too many potential problems for the team/tourney management as parents can sometimes be very tricky and potentially damaging for the management to deal with. Furthermore, if and when teams travel, if the majority of the team is of age, they may participate in activities (aka drinking and partying lol) that minors cannot join in. Chaperoning a minor is an additional annoyance and issue that they probably would rather not deal with.
That being said, don't be discouraged. Play hard and improve. If you do well, people will recognize and give you respect. GSL Code A currently has some minors playing. If your skill is there, age becomes secondary. You just have to give people to overlook your age first.
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well it's really difficult. I'm not saying that a person < 16 shouln't play sc2, hell most of us probably played for hours at the age of 13. But joining a team and going professional is a big commitment. In my opinion everybody should focus on finishing the school and then if there's still interest in it try go to tournaments etc. I also dislike the GSL age restriction of 13 (or 12, something like that), because now there are kids in the GSL _maybe_ beeing the next flash or also possible end school, be a pro for a few years and end with no education and no job at the age of 18. It's a high risc in my eyes and I wouln't recommend anyone doing it
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i feel like taking the time to honestly and straightforwardly ask questions like the ones raised in your OP are wasted on The Internet. online forums are just an exercise in frustration and futility but, for what it's worth, i hope your petition bears positive results.
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On June 27 2011 15:11 algorithm0r wrote:
One thing this thread has proven is that indeed many adults are very prejudiced against younger folk. Many of the posts say things like "13 year olds cannot understand what it means to be mature" and pick on lines or posts by the OP and say "look how immature this seems".
The fact is young people are systematically marginalized in western culture by our laws and by sociological judgement in a way that if applied to any other group of people would be pure prejudice. Is it not clear that there is at least some person younger than 18 that might be smart enough to vote? It is not clear that there is at least one person younger than 16 (or whatever age) that is capable of driving safely? Is it not clear that the age that one can maturely decide when and how much to drink is different for each person? But the laws and lawmakers are lazy. Instead of judging a person on their personality we apply the worst criteria... we pick an arbitrary line and use that to judge people. Our justification? It is too hard to judge a person on their qualities... so we MUST pre-judge them.
To the OP: Unfortunately you are in a group that is marginalized. If you are lucky when you reach 16 or 18 you will pass out of that group and people will start taking you more seriously. The fact that tourneys and teams are less likely to deal with you now is because the marginalization that is written into our laws makes it hard for them to deal with you and makes it easy for them to ignore you. Alas a major lesson one must learn to gain maturity is that you will constantly be misjudged based on silly factors and at best we can count ourselves lucky that the list of factors you will be judged on is at least shrinking (or so it appears) so we are no longer subjected to racial, religious, sexual discrimination to the same degree as in the past.
Best of luck man. Practice hard and force people to recognize you. That is how every person, young or old, gains respect.
Come on, man. Prejudice generally implies that the treatment is preconceived without a factual basis. The restrictions put on kids all have perfectly reasonable explanations behind them. Honestly, most people over eighteen aren't even smart enough to vote, which why they don't even do it. Are there exceptions? Sure, but this is one generalization that is almost always true and perfectly justified. Kids are dumb. Even dumber than adults, and that is saying something.
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Most of us know how we acted when we were 13y old. It is probably easier to work with a +20y old teammate.
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On June 27 2011 15:11 algorithm0r wrote:
One thing this thread has proven is that indeed many adults are very prejudiced against younger folk. Many of the posts say things like "13 year olds cannot understand what it means to be mature" and pick on lines or posts by the OP and say "look how immature this seems".
The fact is young people are systematically marginalized in western culture by our laws and by sociological judgement in a way that if applied to any other group of people would be pure prejudice. Is it not clear that there is at least some person younger than 18 that might be smart enough to vote? It is not clear that there is at least one person younger than 16 (or whatever age) that is capable of driving safely? Is it not clear that the age that one can maturely decide when and how much to drink is different for each person? But the laws and lawmakers are lazy. Instead of judging a person on their personality we apply the worst criteria... we pick an arbitrary line and use that to judge people. Our justification? It is too hard to judge a person on their qualities... so we MUST pre-judge them.
To the OP: Unfortunately you are in a group that is marginalized. If you are lucky when you reach 16 or 18 you will pass out of that group and people will start taking you more seriously. The fact that tourneys and teams are less likely to deal with you now is because the marginalization that is written into our laws makes it hard for them to deal with you and makes it easy for them to ignore you. Alas a major lesson one must learn to gain maturity is that you will constantly be misjudged based on silly factors and at best we can count ourselves lucky that the list of factors you will be judged on is at least shrinking (or so it appears) so we are no longer subjected to racial, religious, sexual discrimination to the same degree as in the past.
Best of luck man. Practice hard and force people to recognize you. That is how every person, young or old, gains respect.
It's easy to say that the lawmakers are lazy with age restrictions, but how would YOU solve it?
What's a good alternative way to measure maturity that doesn't discriminate anyone and doesn't cost a fortune?
Children are being marginalized because they don't have the rights of adults? Isn't most of those laws in place to protect minors from making mistakes or losing money? Like the fact that they can't sign contracts or need adults permission.
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I'm 27 and I'm "marginalized" by those older than me. I try to not to the same to those younger than me. Every year I realize how true the things were that people said, about my lack of experience and maturity, but I haven't forgotten that I have also been able to verify that many of my opinions and abilities were sufficient to participate or engage in "older" activities.
I agree to some extent about laziness among those making decisions, but one question that must be answered before we judge people as lazy is this: At what point has a person done enough that they are no longer lazy? The responsibilities and stresses of life increase. Part of being an adult is understanding what things are necessary and what things are not. Everyone has to set a limit on their activities and responsibilities. The general limits in society are usually beneficial for society, and rarely ultimately destructive to those who have not yet gained access to the benefits they have been kept from. Before you become convinced of something being an injustice carefully consider the issues. The questions in the OP are good ones, but a decision about being wronged is pre-eminent to the discussion.
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so from a public relations point of view, this is called going from a "why?" argument to a "why me?" argument. it's an eloquent, non-partisan call for facts which shifts to promotion of something else (ie. OP).
the facts were stated early on why teams are hesitant to take on someone so young and why players are reluctant to play with someone so young. v1dom (manager for 4Kings), Pokebunny, and KawaiiRice offered their experiences and expertise on this (v1dom actually shedding a ton of light on the matter) and players from all age groups and skill levels also chimed in. still, the OP glazed over or ignored most of the actual reasons to pointing out why he is the exception (his education above average, his parents are rich, he's mature, ect.). next time, maybe provide a little more transparency about your intentions so people aren't wasting their time trying to convince you of something you either already know or are refusing to acknowledge.
sorry if i'm coming off like a dick, i just hate when teenagers think they're just so much more clever than everyone else.
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Didn't Sir Scoots, on Live on Three, say that there was a 11-year old at MLG?
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On June 27 2011 15:11 algorithm0r wrote:
One thing this thread has proven is that indeed many adults are very prejudiced against younger folk. Many of the posts say things like "13 year olds cannot understand what it means to be mature" and pick on lines or posts by the OP and say "look how immature this seems".
The fact is young people are systematically marginalized in western culture by our laws and by sociological judgement in a way that if applied to any other group of people would be pure prejudice. Is it not clear that there is at least some person younger than 18 that might be smart enough to vote? It is not clear that there is at least one person younger than 16 (or whatever age) that is capable of driving safely? Is it not clear that the age that one can maturely decide when and how much to drink is different for each person? But the laws and lawmakers are lazy. Instead of judging a person on their personality we apply the worst criteria... we pick an arbitrary line and use that to judge people. Our justification? It is too hard to judge a person on their qualities... so we MUST pre-judge them.
To the OP: Unfortunately you are in a group that is marginalized. If you are lucky when you reach 16 or 18 you will pass out of that group and people will start taking you more seriously. The fact that tourneys and teams are less likely to deal with you now is because the marginalization that is written into our laws makes it hard for them to deal with you and makes it easy for them to ignore you. Alas a major lesson one must learn to gain maturity is that you will constantly be misjudged based on silly factors and at best we can count ourselves lucky that the list of factors you will be judged on is at least shrinking (or so it appears) so we are no longer subjected to racial, religious, sexual discrimination to the same degree as in the past.
Best of luck man. Practice hard and force people to recognize you. That is how every person, young or old, gains respect.
You speak as though children are oppressed, they aren't. You claim that driving age, voting age, and drinking age should be based on a person by person basis. How would you judge it? How many resources would you devote to determining when a person could do what? How would you enforce it? It would take many more resources to manage a system on a case-by-case basis. Do you really think we should spend these resources on increasing the kids' rights as opposed to improving the dreadful economy? It seems that a strict age limit system is the most tenable way to proceed for a government.
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EPT
