EPT[SC2 E-Sports] Bubble or Wave? - Page 3
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supdubdup
United States916 Posts
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SaYyId
Portugal277 Posts
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
On June 20 2011 10:53 lbmaian wrote: Not gonna happen. If SC2 fails, what makes you believe that most SC2 talent will move (back) to BW? In terms of saturation, plenty of B-class and handful of A-class BW players have moved to SC2 primarily because BW is too saturated to support them. Over saturation referring to the viewers. If you shove SC2 down peoples throats all fucking day, they are going to get bored of it. TSL is hype because it happens so rarely. But when the supposed biggest tournament in the scene takes place every damn month, wheres the hype? Its all boring crap to me, but then again, I am quite the BW zealot. And yes, I believe the talent would go back to BW, if SC2 had generated enough new interest in RTS e-sports to create a market for it. Don't kid yourself, there are basically 2 reasons BW players switched to SC2. 1: It's easier. 2: There's more money in it. You can't make a living playing BW in the West. Keep in mind that all this is in context to foreign StarCraft. | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:05 erin[go]bragh wrote: Over saturation referring to the viewers. If you shove SC2 down peoples throats all fucking day, they are going to get bored of it. TSL is hype because it happens so rarely. But when the supposed biggest tournament in the scene takes place every damn month, wheres the hype? Its all boring crap to me, but then again, I am quite the BW zealot. And yes, I believe the talent would go back to BW, if SC2 had generated enough new interest in RTS e-sports to create a market for it. Don't kid yourself, there are basically 2 reasons BW players switched to SC2. 1: It's easier. 2: There's more money in it. You can't make a living playing BW in the West. Keep in mind that all this is in context to foreign StarCraft. And what makes you think the viewers will go to BW? If SC2 fails, then there was a reason for its failure. I highly doubt that that reason will have anything to do with MBS or control groups or anything along those lines. More than anything it may just be people going back to playing CoD or whatever. | ||
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Benga
Korea (South)471 Posts
The problem is that foreigner pro players are really struggling to win a bo3 against koreans. koreans currently never lost against foreigners in dreamhack or MLG theyre taking all the prices.But foreinger pro gamers are totally inflated however cant expect a foreigner winning internatinal events even if they do they're income isnt consistent.Only korea seems the place where you could live out of tourney prizes.All foreign players gain income just coaching and streaming never trying to lessen the gap,which is far from the term pro gamer compared to korea.Im trying to say is that the skill gap might hurt the pros and the spectators whic is really bad for growth of esports | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:05 erin[go]bragh wrote: Over saturation referring to the viewers. If you shove SC2 down peoples throats all fucking day, they are going to get bored of it. TSL is hype because it happens so rarely. But when the supposed biggest tournament in the scene takes place every damn month, wheres the hype? Its all boring crap to me, but then again, I am quite the BW zealot. And yes, I believe the talent would go back to BW, if SC2 had generated enough new interest in RTS e-sports to create a market for it. Don't kid yourself, there are basically 2 reasons BW players switched to SC2. 1: It's easier. 2: There's more money in it. You can't make a living playing BW in the West. Keep in mind that all this is in context to foreign StarCraft. The problem with your theory is that you expect (foreign) BW to last till SC2 dies. You also assume that given time SC2 will never compete with BW. Possible but I see no reason to believe that. Not sure what makes you think this will come true. Besides, this is kind of  | ||
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Zedders
Canada450 Posts
....and it's also particles.... | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
The steep learning curve of Starcraft is not the main problem, however. The real problem is the cannibalistic nature of getting better. In other games, like WoW, if you are bad at the game you can relegate yourself to a support role and play with those who are more competent. In SC2 this is just not possible – you have to lose a ton of games before you start winning. There is just no other way to learn. This “grind” has victimized most of my friends who initially bought the game with high hopes. I am sure that this experience has been shared by many – the in game indicator has shown the number of ladder games taking place slowly decaying over time as players get frustrated with losing. The tiered league system has helped this immensely – but the game is still not where it needs to be to sustain its growth. This was true in Brood War, though. In fact, I'd say it was even more true in BW than it was in SC2, because BW can be pretty frustrating to someone playing it for the first time. But BW, after a while, was all about the custom games for low-level players. BGH 2v2v2v2 and primitive proto-DOTA "RPG" games. There was some weird custom World War 2 based team game that I remember as being popular, too. There's a lot that can be done in the custom map department to address the "it's to haaaarrrddd" issue, and more gently lead the nooblets into "real" play. | ||
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Sovetsky Soyuz
Russian Federation905 Posts
Then I clicked (hesitantly) and read and think! "WOW! This is something! Thanks OP! On June 20 2011 09:49 Sprouter wrote: the only way to keep the river of esports flowing is to get more people interested in it. tell your friends, tweet, facebook, etc. Not really. That's only part of it! First you must have a good game to draw people in. | ||
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:09 Redmark wrote: And what makes you think the viewers will go to BW? If SC2 fails, then there was a reason for its failure. I highly doubt that that reason will have anything to do with MBS or control groups or anything along those lines. More than anything it may just be people going back to playing CoD or whatever. You want my honest answer? Okay, one moment. /flame retardant suit. Because Brood War is a better game. SC2 is fucking boring. MBS, auto-mine, smart cast, these are all things that IMO water down the competitive nature of StarCraft. But in the end, SC2 could be 2x more demanding mechanically than BW, but it wouldn't matter because it's fucking boring to watch. SC2 will fail because after seeing blob vs. blob battles for a year, you'll get sick of it. The dynamic and chaotic combat of BW, however, has already withstood the test of time and remained exciting to it's viewers for a decade. SC2 is the flavor of the week, month, year, or whatever. Just like the new installment of CoD, people are crazy about it because they remember playing SC1 on their N64 and thinking it was a cool game. They never heard of Korea or Boxer or pro-Brood War before SC2, and this whole idea of e-sports is new and exciting. Eventually they are going to get tired of it, and move on to whatever shiny new game is out and demanding their time. However, some of these viewers might stumble into a BW live report thread one night, watch a couple games, and say to themselves "wow..." And thus, SC2 will dwindle, and BW will thrive! Again... All wishful thinking.  + Show Spoiler + Honestly though, I apologize. I never like to be that "hate filled zealot" who preaches that his way of life is somehow better than yours, but it's hard not to be passionate about BW. Edit: This is quite a bit off topic! I don't want to detract any further from such a well written OP. I'll take my leave, if anyone feels like writing a rebuttal, please keep it to PMs. | ||
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godemperor
Belgium2043 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:19 erin[go]bragh wrote: You want my honest answer? Okay, one moment. /flame retardant suit. Because Brood War is a better game. SC2 is fucking boring. MBS, auto-mine, smart cast, these are all things that IMO water down the competitive nature of StarCraft. But in the end, SC2 could be 2x more demanding mechanically than BW, but it wouldn't matter because it's fucking boring to watch. SC2 will fail because after seeing blob vs. blob battles for a year, you'll get sick of it. The dynamic and chaotic combat of BW, however, has already withstood the test of time and remained exciting to it's viewers for a decade. SC2 is the flavor of the week, month, year, or whatever. Just like the new installment of CoD, people are crazy about it because they remember playing SC1 on their N64 and thinking it was a cool game. They never heard of Korea or Boxer or pro-Brood War before SC2, and this whole idea of e-sports is new and exciting. Eventually they are going to get tired of it, and move on to whatever shiny new game is out and demanding their time. However, some of these viewers might stumble into a BW live report thread one night, watch a couple games, and say to themselves "wow..." And thus, SC2 will dwindle, and BW will thrive! Again... All wishful thinking. + Show Spoiler + Honestly though, I apologize. I never like to be that "hate filled zealot" who preaches that his way of life is somehow better than yours, but it's hard not to be passionate about BW. I understand, I only recently started watching BW (shame on me), its soo good! | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
Edit: Fuck, meant to hit edit, must have hit quote. Apologies.  | ||
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DeepBlu2
United States975 Posts
It would save so much trouble, both for the players and Blizzard. People should be less worried about whether "Starcraft 2 being as big as Sports" and be more worried about who is going to win the next GSL. You talking about "E-Sports" growing in the west is as beneficial as me talking about who is going to win the next Stanley Cup, as most of you would not care. E-Sports will grow by itself and it only needs a large player base (which it already has). Making the Game easier make more money, but would not necessarily increase the growth of E-Sports, in fact, it would most likely piss people off. E-Sports will be big. There is no point in predicting how big seeing as there are tournament with 100,000+ being poured into it. Don't worry about Korea. Brood War will be alive there for more than a decade(s). This is something you can not change, and SHOULD NOT change. Starcraft 2 is significantly less difficult then Brood War and was very, very successful. Things like Auto-mine and SmartCast made Starcraft 2 much, much less appealing to me yet got them many more purchases and helped with the playerbase. This still, in turn hurts the entertainment value and skill ceiling. So keep in mind that "Playerbase does not relate necessarily to the Growth of E-Sports/Entertainment Value" Think of it this way. All Companies want a larger market for their game. They Start off Small and Grow. Call of Duty 2: Appeals to a smaller crowd than Black Ops. = To make More money they combine Call of Duty 2 with other games that would create a larger market and playerbase. Brood War: a very difficult game that was turned off by many casual players who thought it was too difficult. (Appealed to Small crowd.) To fix this: Make the game easier. = More people Battlefield 2: A game that contained some realism but was only for the PC and did not appeal to players who sought for a Run and Gun Game.. Battlefield = Appeals to Cod Fanbase by making it less realistic. | ||
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godemperor
Belgium2043 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:22 Ruscour wrote: What on earth is 'brood wars'? its this game that korean noobs who are not good enough for Sc2 play, all the foreigners are too awesome for it. Some really good BW players like  MC and  NesTea were soo good that they got promoted to SC2.Also its obviously a wave, its flawless and full of 100% awesomeness. | ||
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Adaptation
Canada427 Posts
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FragRaptor
United States184 Posts
I challenge some high school level people that live in the same district a future MLG this: After the MLG get some numbers and approach the school board of your district with a good presentation to open a league like that. A key to the success of e-sports is sustainability, and if the youngest are playing this now, we just need to make sure that it is interesting to continue playing later. One problem of the gaming community is that the audiences are very quick to jump from game to game to keep playing. It is the job of e-sports fanatics to continue to make amazing stories that make gamers come back because they "have to see how it ends!" | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:22 Ruscour wrote: What on earth is 'brood wars'? oooh, not sure what to say here? I guess the best thing to do is tell you that it is the most successful competitive game ever, and happens to be what SC2 was based on. Basically BW was SC1 and its expansion. Now, if you asking why everyone is passionate about BW, take a look here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100673 + Show Spoiler + I know he has moved to SC2, but he will always be a sexy BW vet to me | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
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leo23
United States3075 Posts
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