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mrjpark
United States276 Posts
On May 16 2011 16:22 lololol wrote: As you can easily see in the OP, the snapshot used for the team ranking has fOu with 4 code A players and 1 in code S. The problem is that those four Code A players are no longer in Code A. They all lost in the first round, and now a team with one player in the GSL is in the GSTL over IM. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
Seed and Yongwha are undoubtedly good players but until they start shifting their weight in Code A and S, they'll simply be another Leenock. Underachievers. If you look at the people they beat in the last two Team Leagues, it was mainly the mid level players from oGs and ZeNex who are hardly that great of a team before. Of course it's not fair for me to not give them a chance before they even got into Code A but doing well simply in Team leagues doesn't matter in the long run. Ace and Squirtle faded out in the GSL after doing well in the TL, at least Alicia, MMA and Ryung are doing well for Slayers. oGs has MC, Nada and a bunch of their many other strong terran players to pick from. In hindsight, I guess ST are in a similar position to IM though Bomber's current form makes him look invincible against anyone, maybe MC or Nestea could beat him. TSL has FD, Sangho, Tester, Cliiiiiiiiiiide and now aLive who are all extremely good. Sure some of them have been overrated but they're all worthy code S players. Prime is pretty overrated though, relying almost purely on HongUn and MKP entirely and maybe Check and Maka who both are Code A at best. I just checked the roster and I believe IM also has the smallest player roster of all the teams. I guess saying they're team is shallow isn't fair to IM however having my point still remains, having 3 players in A/S isn't enough to make your overall team extremely strong. Being reliant on few players isn't something a team wants to do | ||
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mrjpark
United States276 Posts
Also, how many of you guys actually watch the whole GSTL season? IM never relies on their heavyweights. YongHwa is a bit more popular because of his influence on Protoss builds, but a lot of these guys were pure unknowns when they showed up owning faces. You actually rarely see Mvp or NesTea unless the other team sniped their player with someone especially strong. They like to throw out their kids to give them experience, and they're all generally pretty good, albeit they're usually not Code S quality. | ||
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On May 16 2011 18:17 Dakkas wrote: I need to rephrase what I said because everyone has taken it wrong, I'm not saying IM is a bad team. This is wrong because I still believe them to be the best team overall and I'll still take them over any other team, even Slayers. That said however they have 3 excellent players but they don't have an assortment of players to back those guys up. Seed and Yongwha are undoubtedly good players but until they start shifting their weight in Code A and S, they'll simply be another Leenock. Underachievers. If you look at the people they beat in the last two Team Leagues, it was mainly the mid level players from oGs and ZeNex who are hardly that great of a team before. Of course it's not fair for me to not give them a chance before they even got into Code A but doing well simply in Team leagues doesn't matter in the long run. Ace and Squirtle faded out in the GSL after doing well in the TL, at least Alicia, MMA and Ryung are doing well for Slayers. oGs has MC, Nada and a bunch of their many other strong terran players to pick from. In hindsight, I guess ST are in a similar position to IM though Bomber's current form makes him look invincible against anyone, maybe MC or Nestea could beat him. TSL has FD, Sangho, Tester, Cliiiiiiiiiiide and now aLive who are all extremely good. Sure some of them have been overrated but they're all worthy code S players. Prime is pretty overrated though, relying almost purely on HongUn and MKP entirely and maybe Check and Maka who both are Code A at best. I just checked the roster and I believe IM also has the smallest player roster of all the teams. I guess saying they're team is shallow isn't fair to IM however having my point still remains, having 3 players in A/S isn't enough to make your overall team extremely strong. Being reliant on few players isn't something a team wants to do Your talking out of your ass. IM deserve to be there. Look at what just happened to Zenex. IM would never get all killed | ||
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On May 16 2011 15:02 Quarz wrote: lol, to have 3 very good players is a shallow line-up... I dont know what to say. Me either. A lot of stupid people keep saying the best SC2 team have a shallow line up...... | ||
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zaii
Guam2611 Posts
On May 16 2011 19:52 Za7oX wrote: Me either. A lot of stupid people keep saying the best SC2 team have a shallow line up...... SlayerS has a shallow line up? | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
My other point still stands, IM has one of the smallest rosters with all of their seeded players in Code S and . The rest of them are still have a long way to go before they're even in Code A. Ace and Squirtle amazed us in the first GSTL but they haven't been able to translate that into individual success in the GSL and thus, underachievers. Seed rolled the average - solid oGs players while Yongwha rolled ZeNex in GTSL 1. Neither is that great of a feat, it's good nonetheless but nothing that shouts out top-tier. In GSTL 2, Seed didn't even play, Yongawha did play but his game against Alicia was Alicia losing and Golden who is a solid player at best. EDIT: Now looking at all the extra posts, I'm not sure if people are being butt-hurt fanboys or logical. I NEVER SAID IM DON'T DESERVE TO BE IN THE GSTL. I initially said that I respect Gom for sticking to their decisions. I even clarified and changed my wording when I said shallow | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if you can't even make an empirical, local judgment like "this rule is wrong in this particular case," how the fuck do you live with rules? | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On May 16 2011 20:10 Dakkas wrote: A few things here, first part in regards to the system Gom uses. Stating the system they use is 'wrong' is flat out, well, wrong itself. It's only a partial solution for team selection (seeding is also needed for finalists). I do agree that waiting until the end of GSL was better but hindsight is always 20/20 vision. No, the implementation of their system is, quite plainly, wrong. The team league happens after individual league finals, is announced after individual league finals, and uses information from before the individual league. None, absolutely none, of this outrage happens if teams are ranked with the most current information. | ||
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thepuppyassassin
900 Posts
semi/joking and semi/serious... | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Look at KTrolster in BroodWar, Their team has no depth at all compared to the other teams, but they have Flash and Stats carrying them through with the KOTH format. Shallow line-up means little in a KOTH format. I get it that they didn't get in, but having a shallow line-up is no excuse for not letting them in, the rules are. | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:35 Wren wrote: No, the implementation of their system is, quite plainly, wrong. The team league happens after individual league finals, is announced after individual league finals, and uses information from before the individual league. None, absolutely none, of this outrage happens if teams are ranked with the most current information. Only after the qualifiers do we know who the 32 Code A players are. So then there's the question which season do you count the points of those Code A players for? 1) The previous GSTL (March). This option is impossible without time travel, you don't know the results of the May qualifiers back in March. 2) The current GSTL (May). This option has the 32 Code A players decided by the May qualifiers count towards the May GSL and the May GSTL? That makes too much sense. 3) The next GSTL (July). This option has the Code A players who have lost in May, who may not re-qualify in the future July GSL, with a June GSL Super Tournament in between, count towards the July GSTL two months later. Tournaments are not finalized weeks or months in advance because of scheduling and possible conflicting events (like MLG Columbus). The fact of the matter is the teams are exactly who they should be, but people are upset a) one of the favorite teams is not in it and b) this was not announced until later, even though later was the appropriate time to announce it. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On May 17 2011 10:01 Dimagus wrote: Only after the qualifiers do we know who the 32 Code A players are. So then there's the question which season do you count the points of those Code A players for? My preferred solution is to use cumulative GSL point totals of all players on a team, but that's not the question you asked. I'd much rather only have 16 players give their teams the points from code A. In your system, it'd be option 2.5 - The current GSL (32 code S, 16 code A). It's ridiculous that fOu has credit for 4 of their code B players, IM has credit for none of theirs. On May 17 2011 10:01 Dimagus wrote: Tournaments are not finalized weeks or months in advance because of scheduling and possible conflicting events (like MLG Columbus). This isn't really correct (team leagues have always been the week after the code S finals, they're held during the week and don't interfere with anything, until this week GSL didn't schedule around anybody), and just helps my point anyway, so, thanks. | ||
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tenkka
United States89 Posts
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On May 10 2011 14:16 ReachTheSky wrote: Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility? Yup. To be a top team, you need be a top team. The other issue is the cutoff time for setting the teams. Needs to be done as late as possible. | ||
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thepuppyassassin
900 Posts
On May 17 2011 10:22 tenkka wrote: Well, fOu stepped it up today. Taking out TSL is pretty huge for them. GAH!.. weren't u supposed to put spoiler tags on that?! | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
On May 17 2011 10:13 Wren wrote: My preferred solution is to use cumulative GSL point totals of all players on a team, but that's not the question you asked. I'd much rather only have 16 players give their teams the points from code A. In your system, it'd be option 2.5 - The current GSL (32 code S, 16 code A). It's ridiculous that fOu has credit for 4 of their code B players, IM has credit for none of theirs. "In [my] system"? There is no "my system" that's simply the way the GSTL is currently setup. I was pointing out how crazy it would be if they changed when the points were calculated (past/future versus present). People are acting like there's some kind of flaw or ambiguity with the setup but the math is simple and the structure makes perfect sense. It's nice that people love the IM team and want to see them compete, but let's not kid ourselves there wouldn't have been so many complaints if it was MVP or ZeNEX in IM's situation. Everyone that is generating this alleged controversy for IM and trying to get the GSL to bend over backwards and do a system change would be telling their proponents to "Do better and qualify for Code A/S" (That's the nice version of Learn 2 Play). Say they do make a system change and end up doing cumulative points. Months down the road a new great team that forms will spark another generated controversy about how the system favors the older teams over recent performance. But really the only adaption the team league should need to make down the road is increasing the number of GSTL participants as more teams are formed. On May 17 2011 10:13 Wren wrote: This isn't really correct (team leagues have always been the week after the code S finals, they're held during the week and don't interfere with anything, until this week GSL didn't schedule around anybody), and just helps my point anyway, so, thanks. Why are you assuming I was talking only about the team league as far as scheduling? Potential conflicts and schedule changes have already occurred multiple times. Examples include planning around MLG, the Up & Down matches before the 1.3.3 patch, the World Championship season, start time adjustments for airing on Korean Cable TV, rescheduling during Blizzcon, and removing the breaks between Code A/S matches (they further changed this by having A and S on separate days). | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
It is unfortunate team IM will not be participating in GSTL. What do you feel about your team’s exclusion in the third GSTL? This question requires a delicate answer. I am very sad that IM won’t be able to participate in the GSTL. However we don’t have any complaint about it. The rules are stated clearly and as players and coaches, we must abide by the rules. I personally feel responsible for the exclusion of IM in the GSTL as I could have raised my team’s points by qualifying for a Code A, a goal that I failed this season. Most of my teammates including my coach firmly believed that I would qualify for Code A, but I repeatedly failed them. I am genuinely sorry. I will try my very best to qualify for the next season. This is the third GSTL. I personally pray that Startale will win this one. However, I hope that IM wins the rest of the future GSTLs. Please watch us win all the upcoming GSTLs and cheer for us continuously! Only one to blame for IM missing out on the GSTL is IM. IM have the elite players to win the whole thing, but Yonghwa, Junwi, Seed, and all the others failed to qualify for code A even though they are clearly good enough to. It's like a championship caliber team that fails to make the playoffs because they choked in the regular season. You wouldn't expect MLB to change the rules just to let the Yankees into the playoffs if they didn't earn it right? No reason to hate on GOM for following the rules and holding all teams to the same standard. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:30 Dimagus wrote: "In [my] system"? There is no "my system" that's simply the way the GSTL is currently setup. I was pointing out how crazy it would be if they changed when the points were calculated (past/future versus present). People are acting like there's some kind of flaw or ambiguity with the setup but the math is simple and the structure makes perfect sense. It's nice that people love the IM team and want to see them compete, but let's not kid ourselves there wouldn't have been so many complaints if it was MVP or ZeNEX in IM's situation. Everyone that is generating this alleged controversy for IM and trying to get the GSL to bend over backwards and do a system change would be telling their proponents to "Do better and qualify for Code A/S" (That's the nice version of Learn 2 Play). Say they do make a system change and end up doing cumulative points. Months down the road a new great team that forms will spark another generated controversy about how the system favors the older teams over recent performance. But really the only adaption the team league should need to make down the road is increasing the number of GSTL participants as more teams are formed. Why are you assuming I was talking only about the team league as far as scheduling? Potential conflicts and schedule changes have already occurred multiple times. Examples include planning around MLG, the Up & Down matches before the 1.3.3 patch, the World Championship season, start time adjustments for airing on Korean Cable TV, rescheduling during Blizzcon, and removing the breaks between Code A/S matches (they further changed this by having A and S on separate days). ~Your number system, yes. ~You left out the most sensible point of calculation in your representation of options, so I provided it. ~A points system favors accomplishments, so as soon as a team can be called great, it would have something to prove it. ~This whole thread is about the team league, bringing up points that don't apply is silly. There's no question that the reaction has been more intense because it's IM that's left out. They're the most accomplished GSTL team and many people's favorite Korean team. However, examination of the system has exposed glaring faults in how the teams are ranked. The system currently employed was fine for very early starcraft, when players hadn't distinguished themselves, but this month, IMMvp and TopClassfOu are considered exactly the same. In any setting, team or individual, that's silly. There is neither ambiguity nor confusion, just ignorance of the last month's results. @ red4ce: If GSTL were formed the way MLB playoffs were, there'd be no complaint, and IM would be no lower than 2nd seed. | ||
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Brewed Tea
United States124 Posts
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