GomTV announced the GSTL May teams and Ro8 brackets. Source
In the long block of text that follows the bracket GomTV addresses the complaints people have been having regarding IM's exclusion. They state that to choose the teams that will participate, they used the same method they have been using since the beginning of this year, and that the brackets and teams included for GSTL May will not change. However, they do also state that they understand the general dissatisfaction in the community and are currently discussing potential solutions to the problem.
The method they use to choose teams is as follows: Total Points = (1.6x + 1y) where x = number of players in Code S y = number of players in Code A
wow thats interesting (IM has made it too the finals both times won once, lost once right?). Yeah GOM needs too fix that somehow xD. But glad too see another team league. I really hope there's a "proleague" like system like bw where its 4 1v1's and an ace 1v1 and switches with winners league every x amount of months.
Also, totally ignoring the IM thing because it's pretty obviously retarded; what the heck is up with the brackets? oGs (1st) plays ST (4th) in the first round. Seriously, guys, seeds. Seeds are good. At least SlayerS is on the other side of the bracket.
Don't bash it if you don't have a solution. What should GOM do, change the rules so MVP, an upcoming team, doesn't have a chance? If memory serves me right SlayerS were an upcoming team, look what the GSTL did for them.
Only things I could think of to make it work could be: 1) Ro16 - issue being, there aren't this many teams unless they expand to "Code B". 2) Provide variety to the points given based on results - That is: the grand finalists might earn a team 1.9 points, whilst a 4th place Code S group-er might only get 1.1 points for example. 3) A "points" limit which potentially gives lower point teams an extra round. Allows for a "Ro9/10/11/12" for example.
Either way, a solution should be engineered. They can't just hope on the promise that a few teams will control most of the points so its easy to make a Ro8 forever. Heck, if they want to get international players, they are guaranteeing more teams will take points here and there.
EDIT: 4) they could use the same points rankings used for the Super Tournament: pooling the points earned for each player as potential qualifying points for the team. The Super Tournament is not shy on players from different teams...
I was actually waiting for this to happen. They have always been at the bottom in terms of points as a team... and all of a sudden MVP exploded in Code A. I'm actually very interested to see how they do.
I am very surprised that their team (MVP) did so well... I thought they would take a long time before we started seeing some decent players from them, but they really picked it up.
Edit: Woo! And if they don't make a good showing then at least Prime finally gets to move up for once!
Edit 2:
On May 10 2011 14:06 blade55555 wrote: wow thats interesting (IM has made it too the finals both times won once, lost once right?). Yeah GOM needs too fix that somehow xD. But glad too see another team league. I really hope there's a "proleague" like system like bw where its 4 1v1's and an ace 1v1 and switches with winners league every x amount of months.
You know... I kind of agree and I kind of disagree about Gom needing to "fix" it. I think IM is definitely deserving and it sucks that they are not in it, but at the same time it is a team league. They should have many players in the GSL, not just a few who are used to take down large chunks of teams. But then again at the same time, they still have good Code B players who are simply having trouble getting in, but are still really contributing.
I think the best solution would simply be to have 2 groups of 5 where the 5 teams play round robin. The top 2 of each group of 5 go against the 3rd and 4th teams... but then again that means they would need to cast WAY more games... and I don't think that's something they want to do... at least not at this point.
honastly if they tallied up the totals AFTER the up and down matches this would not have been a problem as MVP would most likely been in code S but excluding IM is not goms fault but MVPs fault for losing three series inna row and falling to code A he was the difference maker in the last GSTL that gave them their spot and in this one in losing their spot
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
Uhh...how about using individual player statistical points rather than just QUANTITY of players in each team. Seriously...IM team should just bribe one of those players from the other team to join them just to get 1 additional player to compete.
On May 10 2011 14:14 BuffaloSoljah wrote: honastly if they tallied up the totals AFTER the up and down matches this would not have been a problem as MVP would most likely been in code S but excluding IM is not goms fault but MVPs fault for losing three series inna row and falling to code A he was the difference maker in the last GSTL that gave them their spot and in this one in losing their spot
If thats the case then WAIT!. And didn't Keen get counted as a code S player in the points?
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
Nestea is about to win this finals. MVP took second place in code a. Losira got ro8 code s. They made the finals of both team leagues and won one of them.
The writing on the wall for this has been around for the past couple months, but it's still a bit surprising to see it happen. If there were 12 full-size teams there would be an easy solution, but for now I don't think I would have made a different choice than Gom did. Maybe they should institute automatic qualifying positions for the finalists next time though.
Naming yourself MVP doesn't guarantee your team a GSTL seed, you have to win, and he's been choking lately. I for one am excited to see more undiscovered talent.
Bleh... No IM. Go SlayerS, then! I honestly think that finalists of last season should be automatically seeded in to the tournament, regardless of the points. Also if they counted the points at the end of the season fOu wouldn't have made it in as they only have one player in the GSL remaining, which is sC, everyone else fell in the first round, I think.
Some of you say IM doesn't have the results to compete but you do remember that they won the first GSTL and placed 2nd in second GSTL. They should give some rank points for placing 1st or 2nd in GSTL and that would solve this problem.
Wow that's pretty big IM isn't in there, but I guess it was in a fair way.
SlayerS Fighting!
Edit: And yeah whatever happened to SEED? Wasn't he invited to the Gretech SC2 All-Stars event thing back in I think November 2010? Did he not qualify for GSL 2011?
It's pretty silly that the rules weigh all players equally, seeing as the team of two champions (one two-time champion, and another potential two-timer), IM, isn't included this time. Keeping in mind that IM made the finals twice in the team league, it's foolish that they aren't competing this time around.
On May 10 2011 14:24 Truefire wrote: Some of you say IM doesn't have the results to compete but you do remember that they won the first GSTL and placed 2nd in second GSTL. They should give some rank points for placing 1st or 2nd in GSTL and that would solve this problem.
Yes, it's true that they did well in the tournament itself. However, what I think Gom is trying to do is counterbalance some of the issues the Winner's League Format has with their system.
There are 2 major formats for team competition - all kill, and standard. All kill is obviously favored towards the teams that have that 1 (or 2) stars, and maybe snipers, where the standard system is more beneficial to balanced teams with well-rounded players. You can't really do a mixture of the two systems within a tournament. But with GOM's format, they take care of the "needing a balanced team" requirement via their qualification procedure, then give the really strong players a chance to show their stuff in the actual tournament. It seems pretty fair to me, although I'lll agree it hurts to not see the stars in this tournament.
On May 10 2011 14:30 MechKing wrote: Will the team leagues be played the week after the finals?
Yep, I'm glad that GOM stuck to their guns and didn't bend the rules just because a popular team missed out. Qualifications and objective rules are the best thing to maintain the integrity of the competition.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
Would you really consider teams like Zenex and fou to be better than IM? Both have 5 players in the GSL, while IM has 4, just 1 less. Yet IM players have consistently performed better.
I'm perfectly fine with GOM following their established system to select teams, and I don't see why anyone could complain about it. The only thing I don't like is that previous GSTL seasons have been a great showcase for some up-and-coming players that hadn't yet made it in the GSL, and we may end up seeing less of that.
What's up with the brackets? According to the picture we have 4v7 (slayers-zenex), 2v8(TSL-fOu), and 1v4 (oGs-Startale). Wouldn't it make sense to seed 1vs 8, 2vs7, etc.? Even though I like the players on IM, I'm glad GOM didn't change the rules just to make sure they get in. It would be very discouraging for up and coming new teams if they had to face the prospect of not making the GSTL on the basis of popularity. Anyone hating on GOM should blame IM for not having a deeper lineup. Based on what we've seen in the GSTL players like Seed, Yonghwa, and Junwi should be at least code A worthy, but none of them have even made it past the qualifiers. That being said, perhaps next year GOM could change the formula to give teams more points for players who make it deep into code S.
Yes, it's true that they did well in the tournament itself. However, what I think Gom is trying to do is counterbalance some of the issues the Winner's League Format has with their system.
There are 2 major formats for team competition - all kill, and standard. All kill is obviously favored towards the teams that have that 1 (or 2) stars, and maybe snipers, where the standard system is more beneficial to balanced teams with well-rounded players. You can't really do a mixture of the two systems within a tournament. But with GOM's format, they take care of the "needing a balanced team" requirement via their qualification procedure, then give the really strong players a chance to show their stuff in the actual tournament. It seems pretty fair to me, although I'lll agree it hurts to not see the stars in this tournament.
Also. IM has the previous Coda A winner, current code A runner up. current GSL WC champ. at least a Code S runner up coming. The system awards quantity instead of quality.
While it's a bid sad that IM isn't in it, that's the way it is. People suggesting that previously defined tournament rules should be ignored to let a more popular team in need to get a grip on reality.
These are professional players, and playing this game is their livelihood. The rules may not be perfect, and by all means consider changing them for future tournaments, but not this one. You can't arbitrarily change the scoring system after the game is over.
p.s. prediction: MVP wins the tournament. A brand new team with some strong players and a hell of a lot to prove.
On May 10 2011 14:28 probablywrong wrote: couldn't they have counted it after all the up and downs were finished? wouldn't that have mathematically allowed IM in?
Well, I guess there's a disadvantage of being too top heavy. Should add more motivation for players to qualify
They counted at the start of the regular GSL season for both other, wouldn't be fair to switch it up this time just to allow IM in.
IM isn't even really that top heavy. Yongwa and Seed are both amazing. Yongwa basically invented (or at least was the first major one to use it) the turtley protoss style that was so dominant for like 2 months straight.
It's good to see GOM isn't bending the rules to get one team in. IM would've known for a long time that they need to get a greater presence in code A at least to be able to qualify so it's not like they didn't know this would happen. As a result we get to see an up and comming team in MVP, just like SlayerS were a couple of seasons ago.
With that said though, I would've thought getting 1st or 2nd place would at least give that team some extra points, if not garauntee them a place in the next GTSL.
Alternatively, I hope we can maybe see the bracket get expanded to 10 or 12 teams because I'm sure most of us would like to see IM playing.
On May 10 2011 14:14 BuffaloSoljah wrote: honastly if they tallied up the totals AFTER the up and down matches this would not have been a problem as MVP would most likely been in code S but excluding IM is not goms fault but MVPs fault for losing three series inna row and falling to code A he was the difference maker in the last GSTL that gave them their spot and in this one in losing their spot
If thats the case then WAIT!. And didn't Keen get counted as a code S player in the points?
lol best team isn't even in the tournament = joke. This will be the first GSL event ever that I don't purchase Obviously the thing is a sham and they will have to review their methodology for future team leagues.
I'm sad that IM isn't in, but it's a good move by GOM. Either way they would do it, people would dislike them. If they kicked fOu out some would be mad and obviously others are mad that IM isn't in. That would be so unfair to poor fOu to get kicked out of the team league - that's like all they have left.
Weird. I thought for the previous GSTL they gave bonus points to the two finalists for qualification and calculated points after the up and down matches.
If they really wanted to have 10 teams they could have just added an additional day where the lower ranked teams have to have a match to get spots in the 8 man bracket.
Sad that I'm won't be in on this team league considering they have three of my most favorite players, but what can you do, the other players on the team didn't deliver and slayers / mvp players beat them in the code a quals.
Wow the best SC2 team is not playing -___- unbelievable.
It is not a good move by GOM: - IM is widely accepted as the best team. - IM has heaps of star power which is good for viewership (IMNestea, IMMVP, IMLosira). - IM players have the most achievements (2 GSL code S championships (possibly 3), 1 GSL WC winner, 2 code A finalists). - IM has made the grand final of all previous GSTL seasons.
On May 10 2011 14:44 Metaphysic wrote: I don't understand why they don't seed the bracket by points or past team results.
If MVP or Prime had swapped places with Zenex it would have been by past team results. The only teams currently in the league that have made it past RO8 are SlayerS, TSL, Zenex and StarTale.
Man GOM, you really need to make a rule that previous winner and finalist are guarantee a spot for next team league. This is ridiculous that IM is not a participant. Or just make it out of 16 teams instead of 8. I think there would be international team that will be willing to participate if given a chance to. No MVP, no Nestea, no Losira...seriously.
I think it is a good move by GOM, it incentivizes the teams to be developing as much talent as possible, not just focusing on a couple stars. Much better for the growth of the league's player base over the long term and gives upstart teams a chance.
Well they're not in because they didn't deserve to be.
It's a team league, not a "lets hope Nestea/Losira/MVP can all-kill for us league". They're not amongst the top-performing teams in the GSL, so they were excluded.
Rules are rules, man. IM is my favourite team, but I totally understand.
What I don't understand is, if you're going to choose which teams participate based on point ranking (which is in turn dependent on # of Code S and # of Code A players) then why not seed based on your ranking?
You're basically saying that IM is not "good" or "deep" enough to join because they are 9th in points - which is a conclusion I am perfectly fine in accepting despite their 1st and 2nd place finishes in the last two GSTLs, but on the same footing that means oGs (rank 1) should be playing fOu (rank 8) instead of playing vs StarTale (rank 4).
So, what we have is, SlayerS (#5) vs ZENEX (#7) TSL (#2) vs fOu (#8) Prime (#3) vs MVP (#6) oGs(#1) vs StarTale (#4)
Imo only the Prime vs MVP matchup makes sense, since they are #3 and #6. I would rather that the matchups be like so instead:
Top half of bracket: oGs (#1) vs fOu (#8) StarTale (#4) vs SlayerS (#5)
Bottom half of bracket: TSL (#2) vs ZENEX (#7) Prime (#3) vs MVP (#6)
On May 10 2011 14:57 Subversion wrote: Well they're not in because they didn't deserve to be.
It's a team league, not a "lets hope Nestea/Losira/MVP can all-kill for us league". They're not amongst the top-performing teams in the GSL, so they were excluded.
Rules are rules, man. IM is my favourite team, but I totally understand.
Bah, that's unfortunate that IM did not make the top 8 teams. Don't get to see Mvp, Losira, or NesTea. Oh well, I'm still excited for the GSTL and hopefully we get to see some new up and rising players shine in the tournament.
lolol gomtv is so full of win. kicking out a nooby team like IM. good choice guys, IM only won the first GSTL and came second in the 2nd GSTL, not to mention having a 2-time gsl champion and a 1-time GSL champion. this points system is retarded
On May 10 2011 14:53 Highways wrote: Wow the best SC2 team is not playing -___- unbelievable.
It is not a good move by GOM: - IM is widely accepted as the best team. - IM has heaps of star power which is good for viewership (IMNestea, IMMVP, IMLosira). - IM players have the most achievements (2 GSL code S championships (possibly 3), 1 GSL WC winner, 2 code A finalists). - IM has made the grand final of all previous GSTL seasons.
Really really dumb move.
So tell me what should they have done?
Kick out fOu because the public believes IM is a better team even though fOu legitimately qualified?
dont know how there can be any problem now. I personally dont like the system they use at all (main reason is that things like that can happen), but now it's too late to change it for this season.
I hope they find another solution next GSTL to get the real best team. So this GSTL wont be as exciting for me, just because simply the best team is missing
Quite unfortunate for IM, indeed. The way I see it, while the team with the most points is not necessarily the best team in Korea, the team with not enough players in the GSL is certainly not the best "team." It's on IM players other than MVP, NesTea, and Losira to step up for their team.
EDIT: Basically, the GSTL qualification requirement rewards the amount of players the teams have in the GSL rather than how deep they go in the tournaments.
On May 10 2011 14:57 Subversion wrote: Well they're not in because they didn't deserve to be.
It's a team league, not a "lets hope Nestea/Losira/MVP can all-kill for us league". They're not amongst the top-performing teams in the GSL, so they were excluded.
Rules are rules, man. IM is my favourite team, but I totally understand.
It seems bizarre to say that a team that won the first team league and got to the finals of the second team league doesn't "deserve" to be in. I think GOMTV knows their own rules for deciding how each team qualifies for the team league are a little off when they say they're looking into solutions to what happened (although not changing anything for May, which is understandable)
I'm curious as to why they set Code S players to be worth 1.6 Code A players. Seems very arbitrary, especially when there is a big difference between RO32 and champion.
GSL already has a point system that they're using the super tournament. And its does a very good job at power ranking, nobody has argued against it. They should just add up each individual's points in order to determine their team's points.
The current system favors teams that have a large quantity of players. I'm worried that it will be tough for new teams to be able to afford to "break in", MVP's case notwithstanding.
Well you can't fault Gom's decision making here, it's just unfortunate that using the same system as previous seasons led them to an undesirable result in this case. But adding IM in arbitrarily would be a worse decision in terms of legitimacy.
Perhaps a better system would be to base the seedings on player performance, rather than just number of players in each league. Like if you added up the points that players have earned so far (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League/Rankings) then took the top eight teams. This system would reward teams who have 1 or 2 good players over those with lots of average players, but I dunno if it would end up being any fairer in practice.
On May 10 2011 14:59 fuzzy_panda wrote: lolol gomtv is so full of win. kicking out a nooby team like IM. good choice guys, IM only won the first GSTL and came second in the 2nd GSTL, not to mention having a 2-time gsl champion and a 1-time GSL champion. this points system is retarded
No its IM bench that is retarded. The stars are so full of themselves that they left no place for other players to sit on.
Ok joking aside. Blame the IM code B players... They are just like 4 class below the top of IM. We can only blame the coaches of IM that they didnt put their attention to code B players so they could improve and get into code A/S
IMO, taking the top 7 teams and the previous champions would be smarter than simply taking the top 8.
Slayers the last winner, IM would still be excluded. Just up the # of teams to 16. I think there would be plenty of international teams willing to participate.
On May 10 2011 15:01 DigitalisDestructi wrote: Quite unfortunate for IM, indeed. The way I see it, while the team with the most points is not necessarily the best team in Korea, the team with not enough players in the GSL is certainly not the best "team." It's on IM players other than MVP, NesTea, and Losira to step up for their team.
EDIT: Basically, the GSTL qualification requirement rewards the amount of players the teams have in the GSL rather than how deep they go in the tournaments.
IM saw this coming, and tried to avoid it happening by recruiting a teamless guy that qualified.
no IM that seems like a bad choice even though there is a point system for the teams to get in, IM would be a contender for first and not having them in the tournament just seems stupid...
I don't have a problem at all with this. The GSL is about the most open system possible and this is just yet another upset, albeit slightly different. I love that a top team like IM isn't 'protected' in any way if they aren't putting up results in the 1v1 league.
It'll be a shame because they'll invariably change it for next teamleague after the backlash.
On May 10 2011 15:18 Jacuzzi wrote: I'm surprised GOM doesn't just automatically qualify the last two season's finalists. o.O
Also, if Nestea wins code S would that give them enough points to top MVP? (No pressure on Nestea if it does XD)
No, the points are given at the start of the season, meaning if a team has 16 people in Code A that all get knocked out first round, they'll have 16 points for the teamleague.
Fou lost all their code A players they only have SC left in code S. So there is little chance they'll make it into the next one and IM can come back then.
I understand that they wanted to use an objective metric when they were inviting teams but excluding IM, the team that Tastosis has constantly referenced as the best and the team that has one two time champion and very likely another soon to be two time champion is a little ridiculous particularly when they've gotten 1st and 2nd in the last two team leagues. From a fan perspective too, the fans want to see MVP, Nestea, and Losira play a helluva lot more than anyone on fou or MVP for that matter.
I need to understand more about how their metric worked, does it only factor current code s and a players? I think having a formula where you take the summation of each team's individual players gom points makes more sense. MVP and Nestea are both very close to the top of that. The team league in the past has also been a lot of showcasing all of these unknown players and giving them a platform to begin to prove themselves. How awesome was it to see Min (a player that no one really knew at that point) absolutely demolish Inca. Or see a player like Bomber debut. Now it seems like it's stacked in favor of players that we already know from the gsl and I find that boring honestly.
Aww..sucks that IM isnt in, but those are the rules I guess. I didnt know that TL was looked at as a separate team, thought they were included with ogs or were simply did not participate.
rules are rules. we all know what happened at nasl recently and the backlash they faced. it is unfortunate that im didnt make it. but it is a team league after all. blame the other players other than the likes of mvp, nestea and losira for not stepping up.
On the positive side of things. MVP is in and we can expect some crazy ceremonies if they win. Bothe MVPKeen and MVPGenius have had some hilarious ceremonies.
Gonna say this now... If GOMTV would make like a bigger summer team league and have some foreign teams, I'm sure there will be some that would go!
I would love to see Fnatic compete against the Korean teams in a GSTL. It'd be awesome if Fnatic, Dignitas, Liquid, and Mouz/EG would send 4-5 players and have a big team thing against Koreans!
They should just invite 6 foreign teams and have all 10 full korean teams participate. Might have to up the prize money a bit though too make it worth it for the foreign teams.
On May 10 2011 15:22 proxY_ wrote: I understand that they wanted to use an objective metric when they were inviting teams but excluding IM, the team that Tastosis has constantly referenced as the best and the team that has one two time champion and very likely another soon to be two time champion is a little ridiculous particularly when they've gotten 1st and 2nd in the last two team leagues. From a fan perspective too, the fans want to see MVP, Nestea, and Losira play a helluva lot more than anyone on fou.
Can't deny that, good sir. Perhaps GOM will factor in tournament results for the next GSTL.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
Would you really consider teams like Zenex and fou to be better than IM? Both have 5 players in the GSL, while IM has 4, just 1 less. Yet IM players have consistently performed better.
I definitely consider IM one of the top teams. But when it comes to qualifying for the format, they fall short. These other teams have put up the results so they've earn/qualified their stay. Its just that IM hasn't earned enough for this format. Its not like i disagree with you. I do think IM is probably a top 3 team. But again, its the format. Who has the most points.
Sucks that IM will not be participating even though they are arguably much stronger then teams like fOu and Zenex. But rules are rules, hopefully IM will get more players in GSL so they can qualify next time.
Yeah not really understanding the hate for GOMtv for this. They made their qualification process extremely clear. The pressure was on IM to either perform with the players they have (Yonghwa? Seed? Yoda?) or recruit some new players that are Code A/Code S material.
You can blame the team itself for their absence, not GOM. 2-3 players can't completely carry a team, they need more of a presence.
they should have rotated the teams in a similar fashion as code A/Code S, the lower placing teams from the previous team league get their overall points tallied in this fashion with other teams( in this case MVP) and if the new up and coming team has more points then substitute the team with the least points out.
As it is the system kinda sucks, you don't neccesarily need to have your whole team in code S to be an outstanding team in the team league, obviously.
On May 10 2011 15:22 proxY_ wrote: I understand that they wanted to use an objective metric when they were inviting teams but excluding IM, the team that Tastosis has constantly referenced as the best and the team that has one two time champion and very likely another soon to be two time champion is a little ridiculous particularly when they've gotten 1st and 2nd in the last two team leagues. From a fan perspective too, the fans want to see MVP, Nestea, and Losira play a helluva lot more than anyone on fou.
That's true. But what if MVP has lost his first round in Code A against Lure. Should GOM do something special to keep MVP in the tournament, because he's clearly the better player and more popular than Lure?
No, that would be completely unfair. GSL isn't a popularity contest. I can see them changing the qualification a bit though, so that it's not calculated until normal GSL is done. You could start with 1,0 points for Code A RO32, and increasing it by 0,1 points for each extra round (not counting up/down, that would be for next season's points). Then you'd get a scale that went from 1,0 to 2,1 points depending on where you placed.
keep the rules as it is this season but they need to change it next team league with a better point system i mean mvp and nestea are former champions and arguably the best terran and zerg atm
I'm a bit sad that IM were excluded from the league since they are on of my favorite teams and I'd rather have seen Zenex or fOu get excluded. MVP is an interesting up and coming team though with some great players, and ceremonies!
While it's shocking and disappointing to not be able to see the most successful GSTL team to date, remember that the team leagues give the opportunity for lesser known players to showcase their talent. I'm expecting more Cinderella stories out of this GSTL and I can see the established stars on the GSL anyway.
it puzzles me when people do stupid stuff just because someone tells them to or because they want to follow a rule to the letter, even when the correct answer and method lies right before their eyes. do we really have to tell these folks that they will fail if IM is not included? Do they really not understand? IM has two champions, they won the first GSTL, and get 2nd in the 2nd GSTL...but they excluded the team? im sorry but in this case you gotta screw the points and allow the team in. period.
Very dismayed to see that IM is not in the tourny... Won't be buying a season ticket in protest. I don't care that they don't have enough Code whatever players, they are quite obviously one of the best Starcraft 2 teams out there and excluding them is just plain silly.
On May 10 2011 15:34 Lobo2me wrote: You could start with 1,0 points for Code A RO32, and increasing it by 0,1 points for each extra round (not counting up/down, that would be for next season's points). Then you'd get a scale that went from 1,0 to 2,1 points depending on where you placed.
Using this scale, this would be the standings: oGs 14.9 points TSL 10.6 points Startale/SlayerS 9.5 points Prime 9.4 points MvP 8.3 points Zenex/IM 6.4 points fOu 5.9 points NSHoseo 3.7 points Liquid 3.2 points FOX 1.6 points
Why exactly is past GSTL performance not considered? Just seems incredibly foolish to have a formula for inclusion which excludes IM but includes ZeNex and fOu.....
Really hope Gom comes to their senses with this, from a business perspective AND a spectator perspective this severely weakens the league.
(that being said I will probably watch no matter what....)
I understand the system they use to determine team rankings, however I think it's really dumb for them to not wait until after the up and down matches to calculate the rankings. IM is probably going to pass fOu because of IMMVP getting back into Code S.
IM is by far my favorite team, and really the only team that I root for completely in the GSTL. When you look back and see that IM WON the first GSTL, and got SECOND in the GSTL, its pretty clear that IM is the best team at the moment. (Artosis also seems to think this). It seems absurd that IM is not included, especially since IMVP is basically a lock to get back into code S. It would have been far better since we are in the middle of the up and downs to let them finish before deciding the teams. Very very disappointing.
Also, TEAMS like mvp, have many players in code A but only 1 player in code S. (Genius If I remember), however a team like IM has 2 players who have won championships, and possibly soon to be multiple championships. The quanitity of players in the GSL is far less important to me than the quality of the players, ESPECIALLY concerning the quality of the games shown in the GSTL. Games like the MVP vs MMA game come to mind.
the rules should be flexible enough that all the best teams get in, and if the best team isn't getting in, then there's something wrong with the rules, not the other way around
I could care less if IM is in it or not, besides nestea none of their players really entertain me, yes they are good but the play is so bland. Plus losira's infestor use up till now has been painful to watch at best >.>. People need to realize that there was a predetermined method of choosing the top 8 teams and no matter what, gstl will still be entertaining.
Also, why do they use a random drawing to determine matchups. They've already come up with a way of ranking the teams, why not use the standard tournament format of
IM has achieved 1st and 2nd place in the ONLY TWO teamleagues so far, yet they aren't allowed to compete. One of their players is now in the Code S grand finals, and they have had multiple champions, including winning the World Championship.
I am extremely disappointed in GOM. I just find it hilarious we get to watch Zenex, but not IM. Perfect example of retarded non-nonsensical rules
Clearly the only fair solution would be to include IM and then like Jinro, Haypro and Huk beast their way to the top as a 3 man team + Mercenary players.
On May 10 2011 16:08 worldchrisis wrote: I understand the system they use to determine team rankings, however I think it's really dumb for them to not wait until after the up and down matches to calculate the rankings. IM is probably going to pass fOu because of IMMVP getting back into Code S.
If they waited for up and downs then they'd have to wait for Code A qualifiers as well which isn't happening for another month at least. So then there would be no team league until after the super tourney. They've always done calculations before up and downs. They're not gonna change it just for 1 team. It'd be stupid.
GOM shouldn't be getting hate here. Rules are rules and it's IM's fault they're not in it. If they want to change the rules in the future(and in my opinion they should), then that's something they have to decide for the future. Not for right now.
Hate on the point system if you want, but its been there since GSTL started.
On May 10 2011 16:08 worldchrisis wrote: I understand the system they use to determine team rankings, however I think it's really dumb for them to not wait until after the up and down matches to calculate the rankings. IM is probably going to pass fOu because of IMMVP getting back into Code S.
If they waited for up and downs then they'd have to wait for Code A qualifiers as well which isn't happening for another month at least. So then there would be no team league until after the super tourney. They've always done calculations before up and downs. They're not gonna change it just for 1 team. It'd be stupid.
GOM shouldn't be getting hate here. Rules are rules and it's IM's fault they're not in it. If they want to change the rules in the future(and in my opinion they should), then that's something they have to decide for the future. Not for right now.
But the rules are DUMB. Just because a rule is a rule, doesn't mean it's right.
IM has nearly won both Team leagues. Performance-wise (the only thing that should matter in a tournament) they are the best. They have proven it. No reason to not allow them to compete. None at all.
No IM is really a tragedy...NesTea is the #1 player in the world as far as I'm concerned, that's like having either Hwaseung or KT not in the running for a proleague finals...
lol they should remove fou. Like all of their players dropped out of Code A. =[ sigh...hopefully MVP can put on a good show. They have loads of talent on their team. Another good storyline is ogs vs startale in ro8. hope ogs can finally have a deep run aka end up in the finals. ;] slayers fighting!!!
On May 10 2011 16:08 worldchrisis wrote: I understand the system they use to determine team rankings, however I think it's really dumb for them to not wait until after the up and down matches to calculate the rankings. IM is probably going to pass fOu because of IMMVP getting back into Code S.
If they waited for up and downs then they'd have to wait for Code A qualifiers as well which isn't happening for another month at least. So then there would be no team league until after the super tourney. They've always done calculations before up and downs. They're not gonna change it just for 1 team. It'd be stupid.
GOM shouldn't be getting hate here. Rules are rules and it's IM's fault they're not in it. If they want to change the rules in the future(and in my opinion they should), then that's something they have to decide for the future. Not for right now.
But the rules are DUMB. Just because a rule is a rule, doesn't mean it's right.
IM has nearly won both Team leagues. Performance-wise (the only thing that should matter in a tournament) they are the best. They have proven it. No reason to not allow them to compete. None at all.
No reason? What about the rules. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you get to decide whats right and wrong. Discuss changes to the point system for the future if you want, but this has already been decided. It was decided a while ago and theres no point bitching about it now. The point system has been available for ages now. We figured out that IM wouldn't be in the team league a month ago when the qualifiers happened. Now because the brackets are released people are finally realizing and qq'ing.
They should just add 2 more teams, so there will be 10 teams in total. The next two teams should be Liquid and IM. Then we can see a team of ret/huk/haypro/jinro in the gstl :DD
they need a rule, but it is clear, from a spectator point of view, that a rule that excludes IM, which may have fewer, but VERY good players in code A and S is not very smart -.-
maybe they should look at the topX players of every team to decide, i hope they find a good solution for the GTSL after this =(
I'm utterly baffled that they can exclude IM. Sure they may not have the stupid points requirement, but surely going to the FINALS of both previous GSTL's has to account for something no?
The fact that the team that's been in both finals is somehow not good enough to be in the league is pretty stupid. I don't care about GOM's system. They should have modified it somehow to make sure one of the best, if not the best, teams in the world got into the tournament.
Just because they don't have 8 players in Code A doesn't mean they aren't a good team.
On May 10 2011 16:31 genius_man16 wrote: I'm utterly baffled that they can exclude IM. Sure they may not have the stupid points requirement, but surely going to the FINALS of both previous GSTL's has to account for something no?
The fact that the team that's been in both finals is somehow not good enough to be in the league is pretty stupid. I don't care about GOM's system. They should have modified it somehow to make sure one of the best, if not the best, teams in the world got into the tournament.
Just because they don't have 8 players in Code A doesn't mean they aren't a good team.
See... but then the question comes up. Are they really the best team, or are they just very top heavy... and ride that advantage to the finals.
Of course they still have other solid players... every team does, but overall it seems they rely on a few of their top players for a team league.
Also, there honestly haven't been that many matches, and while getting to the finals both times is a great accomplishment, it also isn't unheard of. You need to win 2 matches to get to the finals and that's it.
That all being said, I do think it sucks that they are not in because despite what I have said, I still feel they are deserving... but my argument is that the point system may still hold validity. It is to have a clear cut way of marking which team should qualify based on overall (as a team) performance.
Wow, this is kind of sad . Team league is always fun to watch and everything, but IM is such an amazing team. Aside from SC, it really seemed like fOu had faded away, I'm really surprised they beat out IM with this point system.
I'd honestly rather have some bias invovled to get IM in the league than have them excluded completely. All I know is this makes everything a lot less exciting, even though I'm sure we'll see some great games. Oh well.
Thanks for showing the brackets. Actually following the qualifying rules I'm not surprised IM didn't qualify, since I hardly ever see any of their players in the GSL.
They should probably weight Code S spots higher, just as a general point. (2 vs 1 maybe)
Also, this is really a problem because there's just *now* enough teams to expand the format. Remember, Liquid was 9th overall back during the first one, with only 3 ppl out in Korea. With 2 more Korean teams, they should probably consider extending the tournament out another round with some Byes for previous placing teams. Yeah, it'd add another 2 days to the Tournament, but it also gives them more Content.
While odd, realistically, this is more of a problem of having more teams capable of fielding a competitive roster, so they really should look to expand for the next GSTL.
quality over quantity - it shouldnt matter that MvP have 6 players that fall out of ro32 in code A
IM players win both Code S and Code A and dont get to play in GSTL ? That just silly. Whatever the solution they will choose they HAVE to get IM in there.
I don't recall anyone complaining about the system before. If Liquid had gotten 8th, but IM had gotten 9th, and then GOM changed the rules to exclude Liquid because it was "ridiculous that IM wasn't in", would that be fair? Except here everyone seems OK with it because we aren't familiar with MVP (the team).
The method they use to choose teams for the GSTL has been well known, publicized, and completely transparent. To change it simply because people aren't happy with the results of that method - on the THIRD iteration of the team league - would be incredibly unfair to MVP. And to honestly expect GOM to change their method of team picking - a transparent method based on actual preformance metrics, goes against everything the community has claimed to want, as a whole, in earlier tournaments (See: NASL qualification, any invitational tournaments)
On May 10 2011 16:52 Sarmis wrote: I don't recall anyone complaining about the system before. If Liquid had gotten 8th, but IM had gotten 9th, and then GOM changed the rules to exclude Liquid because it was "ridiculous that IM wasn't in", would that be fair? Except here everyone seems OK with it because we aren't familiar with MVP (the team).
The method they use to choose teams for the GSTL has been well known, publicized, and completely transparent. To change it simply because people aren't happy with the results of that method - on the THIRD iteration of the team league - would be incredibly unfair to MVP. And to honestly expect GOM to change their method of team picking - a transparent method based on actual preformance metrics, goes against everything the community has claimed to want, as a whole, in earlier tournaments (See: NASL qualification, any invitational tournaments)
Just because it's transparent doesn't mean it's good. I think no one really cared before because previously the system was almost a formality - the top teams were included along with some underdogs. However, when the point system says Prime, Zenex, and fOu are more qualified to perform in a team league over IM, then the system itself is flawed and should be changed.
Ugh, that's so stupid. Teams like fOu and Zenex over IM? Ridiculous.
Hey guys, one guy on my team can all-kill your team. Oh, look, you're in and we're not. Ridiculous. Fuck the rules, that's just a ridiculously flawed system. Two time finalists and one-time champions of a tournament that don't get to be in the tournament... just.... wow.
They don't have to change anything to get IM back after this tournament. Fou will be out unless they get a lot of people through the next qualifiers they lost to many people this season.
Having the two (arguably) best SC2 players (Nestea and Mvp) does not automatically make your team the best, and its time for IM to face the consequences of having relied on those two players for so long without having their other players post any significant 1v1 results.
I understand the qualifying rules made by GOM, but honestly excluding possibly the best SC2 pro team is not doing anything to help SC2 popularity. With that said the team league always seems to produce some of the best games of the GSL, cant wait!
On May 10 2011 17:06 Dhalphir wrote: if IM was the best team, they'd be in.
Having the two (arguably) best SC2 players (Nestea and Mvp) does not automatically make your team the best, and its time for IM to face the consequences of having relied on those two players for so long without having their other players post any significant 1v1 results.
The problem with this argument is that IM is already proven to be the best team, because they won the first GSTL, and placed 2nd in the last GSTL we have had. No other team has come even close to these accomplishments, which were a team effort.
So ridiculous. Stupid bureaucratic type thinking. They should have seeds for a finalist team from last season or something to stop this junk from happening again.
Having the two (arguably) best SC2 players (Nestea and Mvp) does not automatically make your team the best, and its time for IM to face the consequences of having relied on those two players for so long without having their other players post any significant 1v1 results.
"if IM was the best team, they'd be in". This is indicative of an untrained or stupid-but-educated brain. Why do you simply assume that MAX(1.6y + 1x) maximises our skill/performance expectation for a given team? This is an arbitrary model plucked out of thin air and no body has demonstrated that those teams that score higher are better or will perform better in GSTL. In fact past performance of IM serves to debunk this model quite thoroughly (unless they're an outlier). Not that I blame them they need something like this to prevent subjective and unfair selection but your assertion was plain ridonculous.
So many weak teams are able to qualify by flooding code A with very weak players. GOM should really think about fans before coming up with ridiculous non sensical formulas. People don't wanna pay to watch code A no namer dropouts.
I wouldn't say it's a good thing for IM to not be in it, but I think it means they have to concentrate a little more on getting everyone up to a top level rather than relying on their 2/3 good players.
On May 10 2011 17:06 Dhalphir wrote: if IM was the best team, they'd be in.
Having the two (arguably) best SC2 players (Nestea and Mvp) does not automatically make your team the best, and its time for IM to face the consequences of having relied on those two players for so long without having their other players post any significant 1v1 results.
I actually like the format of the GTSL, even though it is a bit contradicting itself:
- to qualify, you need a team with many good players, since it's counting the number of players - to win, you need a few powerhouses, since it's the all-kill format.
a team with only a few powerhouses, how beastly they might be, has not a high chance of qualifying, a team with only "good" players has not a high chance of winning, no matter how many there are.
On May 10 2011 17:19 r3SpaVVn wrote: regarding the new map: are you able to spread creep underwater? i hope so, because otherwise all the zerg players will have a big problem ^^
LOL! Wow, talk about a random problem that I never thought about.
I'm assuming that you can spread creep underwater, otherwise the map would never have been chosen. From what I understand the maps go through a test process before being implemented and if you for some reason couldn't spread creep underwater I imagine that would have been discovered like the first game that was played.
On May 10 2011 17:12 omisa wrote: I understand the qualifying rules made by GOM, but honestly excluding possibly the best SC2 pro team is not doing anything to help SC2 popularity. With that said the team league always seems to produce some of the best games of the GSL, cant wait!
Not having appropriate rules (and follow them) wouldn't help either - special rules for some teams/players always suck!
So yes, it sucks that IM isn't in it... But the rules were done months ago + they make sense... (But yeah, GOM should have a look into the qualifying rules... maybe e.g. just the Top6 are directly invited and the teams above... will... i dont know^^)
I think it's somewhat of a mistake to look at MVP and Nestea's accomplishments individually, they got where they are because they spent hundreds if not thousands of hours practicing WITH THEIR TEAM. I don't think it's a bad argument at all to say that one player's success reflects on their entire time because the team collectively helps each other. Fou, zenex, and mvp don't come close to that.
I'm not saying that GOM should announce tomorrow that they're changing their rules and kicking fou out of the league or something but after this debacle they have to re-evaluate their selection process for the next team league, this just defies common sense too much.
On May 10 2011 17:17 Highways wrote: There is too much weight on code A ro32 dropouts.
So many weak teams are able to qualify by flooding code A with very weak players. GOM should really think about fans before coming up with ridiculous non sensical formulas. People don't wanna pay to watch code A no namer dropouts.
If the weak teams can flood code A, why don't the "good" teams try the same thing?
And why didn't fans complain earlier if the system was so bad? The exact same system was used in the first two GSTL, but there were no complaints about the teams that didn't make the cut then.
Yes, the system should be fixed because IM should be in the league, but doing anything other than just increasing the amount of teams for this season would be a stupid fix.
how the fuck does it make sense to have a team excluded if they won 1 of the 2 team leagues AND got to the finals of the second team league? like wtf is gom afraid theyre gonna do well in this new one or something? i know about the points but its bs that theyre excluded after they did so well.
well, rules are rules, and glad that GOM stuck by it. Perhaps they should allow automatic qualification for the winning team but thats about it in my opinion. If nothing else, hope the other IM players pick up the slack in GSL qualifications.
On May 10 2011 17:06 Dhalphir wrote: if IM was the best team, they'd be in.
Having the two (arguably) best SC2 players (Nestea and Mvp) does not automatically make your team the best, and its time for IM to face the consequences of having relied on those two players for so long without having their other players post any significant 1v1 results.
This is sad not only because IM has such a strong team that took 1st and 2nd place in the last 2 GSTLs but also because IM is still sponsorless and their GSTL winnings probably greatly helped support the team.
I understand GOM's system for choosing the teams but this is pretty bad for all parties involved. (Except ZeNEX/Prime/fOU)
On May 10 2011 17:40 Horse...falcon wrote: This is sad not only because IM has such a strong team that took 1st and 2nd place in the last 2 GSTLs but also because IM is still sponsorless and their GSTL winnings probably greatly helped support the team.
I understand GOM's system for choosing the teams but this is pretty bad for all parties involved. (Except ZeNEX/Prime/fOU)
That's insane to me as well, TSL, Startale, and even Slayers before they were able to show any results have several sponsors and IM can't get any? Poor management apparently.
This is going to be so damn hwoarwesome. I wonder if Liquid would've flown in the US and EU contingent if they had managed to score enough points to qualify. Anyway can't wait for all the ingame and out of game entertainment. SlayerS fighting!
Quite like the inclusion of an old school type island map aswell
On May 10 2011 17:40 Horse...falcon wrote: This is sad not only because IM has such a strong team that took 1st and 2nd place in the last 2 GSTLs but also because IM is still sponsorless and their GSTL winnings probably greatly helped support the team.
I understand GOM's system for choosing the teams but this is pretty bad for all parties involved. (Except ZeNEX/Prime/fOU)
Actually IM is sponsored by Coca Cola now! I'm sure the GSTL winnings helped though...
From what they wrote in their statement it seemed like they were truly concerned about the situation and really actively seeking out some kind of a solution for the coming seasons, so at least there's that.
FOR ALL those people saying the model makes sense, WHY does it make sense? It makes no sense. You're not weighting for a SUPER-GOOD Code S player vs an extremely marginal Code S player. You're not accounting for one of the best players in the world who had an off day and got into Code A vs some not good player who scraped into Code A via relatively lucky brackets who is in actual fact a marginal Code B player.
Further, this specification purports to estimate who the best teams are. IM's previous performance in GSTL1 and 2 make me extremely doubtful with respect to external validity of this model.
On May 10 2011 17:50 arbitrageur wrote: FOR ALL those people saying the model makes sense, WHY does it make sense? It makes no sense. You're not weighting for a SUPER-GOOD Code S player vs an extremely marginal Code S player. You're not accounting for one of the best players in the world who had an off day and got into Code A vs some not good player who scraped into Code A via relatively lucky brackets who is in actual fact a marginal Code B player.
Further, this specification purports to estimate who the best teams are. IM's previous performance in GSTL1 and 2 make me extremely doubtful with respect to external validity of this model.
Hopefully the korean fans make a big enough fuss about this situation, GOM doesnt listen to us
to be honest I think IM is a bit overrated, although they did well in both GSTL, their players are not as good as they seem. In general I feel SC2 matches require quite a lot of luck and mind games as opposed to SC1, that is why all these champions of past seasons are so inconsistent dropping to up & down and also losing in NASL or TSLs etc etc. Everything is so centered on builds, it is like 1 build hard counters another (same as units), and once you go the wrong tech route or prepared the unfortunate one, it is hard to win. In SC1, it is more like "any tech path if played well can still prevail", more so than SC2 at least.
With that said, it is not surprising at all that IM did not qualify.
*This is not to say I do not like watching or anything, I happen to watch all vods of GSL/GSTL with the premium ticket (so I know what I am talking about) And it is quite exciting with the luck involved, but also heartbreaking when people I like lose to some underdogs.
shame no IM. two time finalist and have provided great games. gom might give to many points for code A or something or too little for code S. maybe expand the league, or wait until up and downs are over to calculate points.
I'm afraid all the evidence sorely disagrees with you. I wonder what the p-value is that their incredible performance in both GSTLs is a fluke. Probably unimaginably low.
On May 10 2011 17:55 kvn4444 wrote: shame no IM. two time finalist and have provided great games.
pretty much everyone has stated my only thoughts on this. only posting myself to repeat this sentiment because i know GOM communicates through TL.net a lot and they can see just how many "foreign" fans love seeing IM members play and are disappointed by them not qualifying for this.
Ignoring IM is fine, they have to have rules for how you qualify for a team league and no matter what rules they decide on, someone will be left out and people will complain. And the greatest thing about team leagues is that you get to see previously unknown non-GSL players kick ass, and MVP have never shown off any of their unknowns before so I'm looking forward to seeing them there.
Oh, and new map looks pretty cool, looks like a siege-tank map but that's fine and maybe it's bigger than it looks.
IM had a lot of people going up to Code A this season, but they got a bit unlucky with the brackets unlike these MVP players who had quite an easy run into Code A. People like Seed and Yonghwa got eliminated by Min and Ryung. So really tough luck for IM this season :/
Startale will win this one. Why? Cause OGs always looses the first round. And those who win against them go on and win the whole tournament. Im sorry oGs. And sure its sad that IM wont be participating
Gogo slayers!! Hope they kick ass, though I can not see them lose with their awesome coach lol!
Rofl at IM not being there, but the yeh its the system that's used since beginning so fair enough. Guess they need to have some more kick ass players (next season they should be there again though)
IM didn't have enough players qualify, so they're out -- seems perfectly reasonable to me. They'd be totally fucked if this wasn't WL format, anyway.
Ideally though, they'd add another day to the league and let 7, 8, 9, and 10 play eachother in the first round, giving byes to the first 6 teams, in order to include IM and NSH. If Liquid and WEM had more than 3 guys on their teams then they could play too. :p
This new map looks beautiful, can't wait to see games on it.
On May 10 2011 17:54 thesums wrote: to be honest I think IM is a bit overrated
So Tasteless And Artosis say IM are the best SC2 team and you say they are overrated? 3 players in their team are probly in the top 5 players in the GSL....
On May 10 2011 17:54 thesums wrote: to be honest I think IM is a bit overrated
So Tasteless And Artosis say IM are the best SC2 team and you say they are overrated? 3 players in their team are probly in the top 5 players in the GSL....
Not agreeing with thesums because I also believe IM is the best team in the world.. but I can kind of see what he means. They have 2 world class players + 1 impressive up and comer but beyond that no one else has really made any noise.
On May 10 2011 18:11 Mithriel wrote: Gogo slayers!! Hope they kick ass, though I can not see them lose with their awesome coach lol!
Rofl at IM not being there, but the yeh its the system that's used since beginning so fair enough. Guess they need to have some more kick ass players (next season they should be there again though)
Concella said he isn't the coach anymore, he got promoted right?
Rules should've been different to not allow this to happen. But indeed it'd be unfair towards MVP or other new clans to change it now. There are many reasons why IM definately should be in - as a zerg lover missing both nestea and losira is very unfortunate. There really aren't very many truly interesting zergs out there so missing the pretty much top2 really hurts the league. GSL was way too pvt/tvt dominant this season already imo.
It's a shame that IM can't participate... I believe GOM should change the rules regarding acceptance so that the best performing teams (the final 2, for instance) of the previous GSTL are seeded into the following tournament. I understand how the current system works, but it seems very silly that a team that has reached the finals in all previous (albeit two) GSTL tournaments is excluded. Oh well, hoping for a SlayerS/oGs finals this time around new map looks awesome as well! Nice change of scenery!
The math for this system is incredibly flawed if there are not bonus points for higher finishes. the #1 player is worth 2-3 people eliminated in the Ro32
On May 10 2011 14:06 blade55555 wrote: wow thats interesting (IM has made it too the finals both times won once, lost once right?). Yeah GOM needs too fix that somehow xD. But glad too see another team league. I really hope there's a "proleague" like system like bw where its 4 1v1's and an ace 1v1 and switches with winners league every x amount of months.
I so agree with that proleague system! Would make things more interesting in my opinion. In addition it would last longer which is always a cool thing. Now we see like 1-3 matches from our favorite teams... against 1-3 teams
Sorry but this is just incredibly stupid and makes me about 75% less excited for GSTL than I was before.
A somewhat related problem is how someone who was champion just the previous tournament can have 2 bad days or draw tough matchups on 2 days and fall out of the money league for a whole next season (on top of not getting to see him in the tournament he was eliminated from), and then because of that, his team which is a former champion and defending runner up doesn't get to compete in the next team season. (yes if just MVP was code S, no other changes, IM makes the points).
It's all a travesty.
Oh and the group choosing system for up/down, it also promotes keeping some of the very weakest code S players in code S as long as the code A champion/runner up are self-interested.
With all these flaws, making admittance to the team league also just a factor of code S/code A placement is a terrible idea.
Not being able to participate in the GSTL I imagine is going to further elevate the IM sponsor/funding problems (and thus their player recruitment).
I will not be purchasing a season ticket unless a game turns out to be particularly good enough to warrant it as I am an Incredible Miracle fanatic and a Korean Team League without their participation seems to be something I won't mind missing.
Hopefully GOMTV revise their team selection to be done post GSL rather than during and hopefully IM will get some of their other players into Code A this season to prevent such a travesty occurring again come the next GSTL.
I'm not digging to position of the golds on the new map, if a planetary fortress is placed there it looks tricky to bypass, but we'll see.
No IM is a bit of a kick in the pants for the viewer ship but the biggest losers will be the eventual winners. Winning a team league minus the team considered the strongest. As a ST supporter i really wanted to see ST v IM rematch from season 1.
On May 10 2011 19:44 Joseph123 wrote: so basically there is no need to invite the best team out there well its gom's problem they are gonna lose a lot of viewers cause of that
If IM was the best team out there, they would have had more players in code A to compensate for MVP's fall to code A. Look at OGS, they have plenty of players in both code A and code S. As far as I can tell, MVP only has 2 players in code A, and 2 players in code S. While seeing MVP/loisira/nestea in a tournament is cool, three members do not make the whole team, and perhaps if IM wants to go to more GSTL's, they should start helping their up and coming members in their quest to qualify for the GSL.
Besides, they'd have to eject a team that earned their place already, according to the rules. They can't just shit on that team's achievement. Who knows, maybe the team MVP will be one of the better teams in the teamleague, or perhaps SC is going to do better this time around. If esports is to be taken seriously, they have to have some semblance of competitive integrity. Inviting a team because they'll give you more viewers in lieu of another team who won't give you that luxury is pretty stupid in a competitive environment.
That said, they'll probably change the rules next month or something. Like adding a z variable for "You have an M in your team name, take 5 points".
On May 10 2011 19:44 Pekkz wrote: Rules are rules. I dont like it, and they will prob change them for next season, but you cant change it midway cus you dont like how it turned out.
Absolutely. When they started the team leagues I thought the rules were fine, but this is a pretty big weakness.
I think we should let MVP clan a chance to prove they diserve that spot. Maybe they'll be the new slayers this season. I'm a bit disappointed but I'm still curious to see MVP's line up.
I think the team format should change based on the points earned in previous GTSL's, rather than individual performances, it is a team league after all.
Either way.. beautiful map. Can't believe it's taken so long for something like this to appear from the editor. Stop using the Xel-naga tile set.. more maps like this. Visually appealing is something SC2 has over every RTS, why bog it down with ugly as shit maps.
I would preffer some more stable like spanish football league,like 12 teams, and able to increase the number as wella s the team number increase. I want PROLEAGUE!!
It's unfortunate, but you cant just change the rules because one of the favorite teams didnt make it. For future GSTL's they might wanna change their point system though to include how deep in the tournaments the players are and seeding based on previous GSTL's. But that's for the next GSTL to change, for now we gotta stick to the rules, and besides this could be a break through for team MVP and I think it would be fun to see more teams fighting for the 8 GSTL spots rather then 8 auto invite teams.
On May 10 2011 20:42 DreamOen wrote: I would preffer some more stable like spanish football league,like 12 teams, and able to increase the number as wella s the team number increase. I want PROLEAGUE!!
GOM is just teasing us with these, please give us proleague . At least GSTL season means new maps which rules.
Also rofl at IM not being in after reaching the finals twice. Slayers must be a huge favorite this time right?
I'm really disappointed that IM won't be in the GSTL... It won't be the same without MVP/Nestea/Losira. IM should seriously try to improve the level of its players to get some in Code A at least.
Also, the map looks pretty good, quite a different style compared to the others.
The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
On May 10 2011 14:57 EtherealDeath wrote: What I don't understand is, if you're going to choose which teams participate based on point ranking (which is in turn dependent on # of Code S and # of Code A players) then why not seed based on your ranking?
You're basically saying that IM is not "good" or "deep" enough to join because they are 9th in points - which is a conclusion I am perfectly fine in accepting despite their 1st and 2nd place finishes in the last two GSTLs, but on the same footing that means oGs (rank 1) should be playing fOu (rank 8) instead of playing vs StarTale (rank 4).
So, what we have is, SlayerS (#5) vs ZENEX (#7) TSL (#2) vs fOu (#8) Prime (#3) vs MVP (#6) oGs(#1) vs StarTale (#4)
Imo only the Prime vs MVP matchup makes sense, since they are #3 and #6. I would rather that the matchups be like so instead:
Top half of bracket: oGs (#1) vs fOu (#8) StarTale (#4) vs SlayerS (#5)
Bottom half of bracket: TSL (#2) vs ZENEX (#7) Prime (#3) vs MVP (#6)
Ya this is the most annoying part honestly. I don't understand GOM's thought process behind this one, it's just plain silly.
Also, hoping this time around the oGs coach gets his head out of his ass and puts in some good players/matchups lol
At the end of the day IM shouldn't be relying on 2 or 3 players to get them into the league, they all need to perform as a team. You can't just kick MVP out because they're new, they've earnt the points to be there.
On May 10 2011 21:03 Jukebox Joe wrote: At the end of the day IM shouldn't be relying on 2 or 3 players to get them into the league, they all need to perform as a team. You can't just kick MVP out because they're new, they've earnt the points to be there.
They might rely on them to get in, but in the two GSTLs we had they have let their non star players get a lot of playing time, including LosirA before he owned in Code A
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
I completely agree. While it's disappointing that IM didn't make it in, the rule is still completely solid. This is a Team League, and entrance should be based on overall team performance, as opposed to the performance of a select few team members.
This rule promotes up and coming teams, as well as forces teams to focus on getting more players in the tournament, rather than relying on a couple heavy hitters.
On May 10 2011 20:42 DreamOen wrote: I would preffer some more stable like spanish football league,like 12 teams, and able to increase the number as wella s the team number increase. I want PROLEAGUE!!
Also rofl at IM not being in after reaching the finals twice. Slayers must be a huge favorite this time right?
OGS and Startales are a lot better than Slayers, team leagues are fairly random but they have a lot stronger line ups in theory.
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
I agree that it is a fair and objective rule and fulfills its role to encourage less prominent players teams to perform well in the individual league to gain recognition, but I don't think the rule is flawless. Surely there would have to come a time where a result within the actual tournament has a bearing on whether or not you have a guaranteed spot in the next event. I still think that the two finalists from the previous GSTL should be seeded in the next one.
That's just how I see the fairest solution, we'll see if GOM does changes anything for the next GSTL. ^^
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
I completely agree. While it's disappointing that IM didn't make it in, the rule is still completely solid. This is a Team League, and entrance should be based on overall team performance, as opposed to the performance of a select few team members.
This rule promotes up and coming teams, as well as forces teams to focus on getting more players in the tournament, rather than relying on a couple heavy hitters.
You say look at TEAM performance but then ignore TEAM league results (they have the best team performance so far of anyone) and only look at INDIVIDUAL league results. If MVP (just MVP by himself) didn't have a bad day on his up/down day over a month ago, IM would be in. Says nothing about the team.
Also hasn't part of the tradition of GSTL been seeing the players who are not in code S/A but up and coming in the spotlight. So hey lets restrict it to the teams with the most established players who we already see the most in individual leagues .
the rules need a revamp, some team's players suck in individual leagues but are good in team league (canata/really anyone?). its pretty dumb that your team league performance isn't even considered at all, nevermind the fact that you won one
looooooooooooooooool its ridiculous that IM isnt in there lol
my bet for this season actually goes to prime dunno if anyone agrees but i think they can beat MVP easily and same goes with ST/oGs if they have to face oGs they will just send out BitByBit to kill mvp and thats it lol
the finals should be vs TSL/Slayers then and i dont think they can beat them either
On May 10 2011 21:40 sVnteen wrote: looooooooooooooooool its ridiculous that IM isnt in there lol
my bet for this season actually goes to prime dunno if anyone agrees but i think they can beat MVP easily and same goes with ST/oGs if they have to face oGs they will just send out BitByBit to kill mvp and thats it lol
the finals should be vs TSL/Slayers then and i dont think they can beat them either
On May 10 2011 21:37 Noocta wrote: That map look so good. I want a map like that in ladder.
Dunno about the shape of it tho.. seems weird.. can you walk on the water like terrain or just by that little thing in the center ?
Water on normal terrain is just a graphical effect. The height map also is just a graphical effect. The layout (buildable and walkable space) is determined by the plateau levels and borders.
Its disappointing that IM had to be excluded due to insufficient qualification points but rules are rules.
I honestly believe that in future GSTL's that the team cutoff is increased to 10. From there the 4 teams with the lowest GSTL qualification points would play in a wild-card round to determine the eight teams that move on to the next round. The previous GSTL finalists would be exempted from playing in the wild-card round if they had the lowest points, case in point IM.
From there we can continue on just like it would be with more games and matches which excites the fans.
Hi, Comet from wfbrood.com (China) I have translated this article into Chinese and posted on www.wfbrood.com. I have clearly stated that this was taken from here and I will bring the feedback from China back to here. Here is the link:http://bbs.wfbrood.com/thread-27028-1-1.html THX!
I think their rules are fine, it's sad IM can't compete this team, but it happens, just like it happens that Mvp had to play Code A for a season. What they should do is count oGs and Liquid' as one team so we can the occasional Jinro/HuK action in there
You can't only blame GOM for this, IM knew that they were on the razor's edge last time and they failed to get sufficent players into code A. Additionally the format has been availible since forever and people don't start complaining until now when their favourite team can't participate? Look at when MLG announced their tournament system, there was A LOT of discussion around it immediatly after it got announced.
I do find it weird that the teams don't get additional points for performance in the team league itself however.
On May 10 2011 22:05 hi_0 wrote: Which team is MVP? Who are their players?
MVP actually have a pretty big roster. Currently their most notable player is Genius.
They had a whole slew of Protoss players qualifying for this seasons Code A (but all got knocked out in the first round - Lure, Avenge, Finale).
Keen is a player who just advanced to Code S and looks like a pretty good Terran. Noblesse finished Ro16 for Code A twice. Both of them have been on top of the KR ladder for awhile now (Noblesse = CutefOu). viOlet reached the Ro8 for Code A and is scheduled to play in the Up/Down matches tomorrow.
Another player who has yet to qualify for Code A, but has been making waves is DongRaeGu, a Zerg who many have watched stream (Xeph's stream). He might be interesting to watch out for in the GSTL.
So they do actually have a pretty good roster.
If anything ZeNEX or fOu should have been removed, but unfortunately the rules were already in place since the GSL 2011 Tour was announced and IM just should have done better to qualify for the individual GSL.
Hopefully now GOM will make a change to the system.
On May 10 2011 22:05 hi_0 wrote: Which team is MVP? Who are their players?
MVP actually have a pretty big roster. Currently their most notable player is Genius.
They had a whole slew of Protoss players qualifying for this seasons Code A (but all got knocked out in the first round - Lure, Avenge, Finale).
Keen is a player who just advanced to Code S and looks like a pretty good Terran. Noblesse finished Ro16 for Code A twice. Both of them have been on top of the KR ladder for awhile now (Noblesse = CutefOu).
Another player who has yet to qualify for Code A, but has been making waves is DongRaeGu, a Zerg who many have watched stream (Xeph's stream). He might be interesting to watch out for in the GSTL.
Violet deserves to be mentioned. His ZvZ looked pretty good against Coca, and he's in an all Zerg group in the up/downs which means he'll most likely make it into code S as well.
He also had an epic ZvT vs MVP on Terminus where he had a good shot at winning.
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
But the rules aren't good. A major Code S player is not worth only 60% more than a Ro32 Code Aer.
What they should do is base it off total team gsl points.
On May 10 2011 22:12 RickOrShay wrote: this makes me unbelievably sad, dunno if I'll watch it.
Really? Just because of that?!
I'm cheering for Prime, ST or slayers, a bit more for prime. Also, i hope DongRaeGy get a chance to play, i don't watch his play since xeph stopped streaming.
On May 10 2011 22:05 hi_0 wrote: Which team is MVP? Who are their players?
MVP actually have a pretty big roster. Currently their most notable player is Genius.
They had a whole slew of Protoss players qualifying for this seasons Code A (but all got knocked out in the first round - Lure, Avenge, Finale).
Keen is a player who just advanced to Code S and looks like a pretty good Terran. Noblesse finished Ro16 for Code A twice. Both of them have been on top of the KR ladder for awhile now (Noblesse = CutefOu).
Another player who has yet to qualify for Code A, but has been making waves is DongRaeGu, a Zerg who many have watched stream (Xeph's stream). He might be interesting to watch out for in the GSTL.
Violet deserves to be mentioned. His ZvZ looked pretty good against Coca, and he's in an all Zerg group in the up/downs which means he'll most likely make it into code S as well.
Yeap, I forgot about him and only realized after I made the post. Edited already.
On May 10 2011 22:17 Jyvblamo wrote: Hehe, if BW were using GOM's system, Jaedong would never get to play in the proleague.
GOM's team league =/= proleague. Perhaps as SC2 hopefully grows, they could accommodate the 2 other teams (NSHoSeo and IM) into a full scale Proleague, but for now they only have 1 week for the tournament. You can't do a knockout style tournament with 10 teams, unless two team gets 2 rounds worth of byes.
Seriousl GomTV dropped the ball, they can't change the rules for no reason for just one team... but then again I'd think 100% of fans would want IM in that tournament since but IMvp and IMNesTea are both huge crowd gatherers AND fantastisc players. If not the best.
Whatever the results of this tournament are, I don't think anyone is gonna be completely satisfied about it =\ It doesn't feel right to try to crown a #1 team without having to play against IM.
On May 10 2011 22:05 hi_0 wrote: Which team is MVP? Who are their players?
MVP actually have a pretty big roster. Currently their most notable player is Genius.
They had a whole slew of Protoss players qualifying for this seasons Code A (but all got knocked out in the first round - Lure, Avenge, Finale).
Keen is a player who just advanced to Code S and looks like a pretty good Terran. Noblesse finished Ro16 for Code A twice. Both of them have been on top of the KR ladder for awhile now (Noblesse = CutefOu).
Another player who has yet to qualify for Code A, but has been making waves is DongRaeGu, a Zerg who many have watched stream (Xeph's stream). He might be interesting to watch out for in the GSTL.
Violet deserves to be mentioned. His ZvZ looked pretty good against Coca, and he's in an all Zerg group in the up/downs which means he'll most likely make it into code S as well.
Yeap, I forgot about him and only realized after I made the post. Edited already.
On May 10 2011 22:17 Jyvblamo wrote: Hehe, if BW were using GOM's system, Jaedong would never get to play in the proleague.
GOM's team league =/= proleague. Perhaps as SC2 hopefully grows, they could accommodate the 2 other teams (NSHoSeo and IM) into a full scale Proleague, but for now they only have 1 week for the tournament. You can't do a knockout style tournament with 10 teams, unless two team gets 2 rounds worth of byes.
Simple, just give the previous 2 finalists byes. =P The way Proleague ran its playoffs includes byes, why not include byes in GSTL for the winning team of last season, and the runner up? I don't think anyone would have objected to such a change, to accommodate the expanding teams.
IM not there? That is pretty sad. They have MvP who won the code A finals and Nestea who will win the Code S finals. Bad Bad decision. So it is better to have 10 scrubs in code A in your team than the winners of Code A and Code S...
On May 10 2011 22:05 hi_0 wrote: Which team is MVP? Who are their players?
MVP actually have a pretty big roster. Currently their most notable player is Genius.
They had a whole slew of Protoss players qualifying for this seasons Code A (but all got knocked out in the first round - Lure, Avenge, Finale).
Keen is a player who just advanced to Code S and looks like a pretty good Terran. Noblesse finished Ro16 for Code A twice. Both of them have been on top of the KR ladder for awhile now (Noblesse = CutefOu).
Another player who has yet to qualify for Code A, but has been making waves is DongRaeGu, a Zerg who many have watched stream (Xeph's stream). He might be interesting to watch out for in the GSTL.
Violet deserves to be mentioned. His ZvZ looked pretty good against Coca, and he's in an all Zerg group in the up/downs which means he'll most likely make it into code S as well.
Yeap, I forgot about him and only realized after I made the post. Edited already.
On May 10 2011 22:17 Jyvblamo wrote: Hehe, if BW were using GOM's system, Jaedong would never get to play in the proleague.
GOM's team league =/= proleague. Perhaps as SC2 hopefully grows, they could accommodate the 2 other teams (NSHoSeo and IM) into a full scale Proleague, but for now they only have 1 week for the tournament. You can't do a knockout style tournament with 10 teams, unless two team gets 2 rounds worth of byes.
Simple, just give the previous 2 finalists byes. =P The way Proleague ran its playoffs includes byes, why not include byes in GSTL for the winning team of last season, and the runner up? I don't think anyone would have objected to such a change, to accommodate the expanding teams.
I guess that could work. But it would be a little harsh on the players. Particularly those who win the "quarterfinals" (or semifinals if there weren't byes) and end up reaching the finals. They would probably end up having to play 3 days in a row.
(Usually in the current 8 team format semifinals are played on Wednesday. The match with the "seeded" team would then be on Thursday, and they can go on Friday for the finals.)
I guess it works, but again, we're not making the decisions and we don't really know what the logistics are like.
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
But the rules aren't good. A major Code S player is not worth only 60% more than a Ro32 Code Aer.
What they should do is base it off total team gsl points.
MPV has 10504 Nestea has 4749 LosirA has 1030.
That's 16,283 for IM.
Team MVP has 2,211 from 10 different players.
This is the best suggestion I have seen so far. They should probably only use the points from the previous 3-5 GSL's.
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
But the rules aren't good. A major Code S player is not worth only 60% more than a Ro32 Code Aer.
What they should do is base it off total team gsl points.
MPV has 10504 Nestea has 4749 LosirA has 1030.
That's 16,283 for IM.
Team MVP has 2,211 from 10 different players.
New teams would never be able to break into GSTL then, especially if they counted more than just the previous GSL
On May 10 2011 22:28 Koshi wrote: IM not there? That is pretty sad. They have MvP who won the code A finals and Nestea who will win the Code S finals. Bad Bad decision. So it is better to have 10 scrubs in code A in your team than the winners of Code A and Code S...
Yes. Because it's a team league.
We have an individual league to determine who's the best player. MVP and NesTea are good players and thus preform well in the individual league.
And we have a team league, to determine the best team. Everyone not named MVP and NesTea aren't doing so well at the moment.
Edit:
On May 10 2011 22:17 Jyvblamo wrote: Hehe, if BW were using GOM's system, Jaedong would never get to play in the proleague.
For giggles, here's what this season's MSL would give you. 1.6 points for making it into the MSL, 1 point for losing in the MST. + Show Spoiler +
On May 10 2011 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The rules are good. IM failed to deliver and were excluded based on good rules. Things are not always consistent so every now and then something like this just happens. The 99% other times you would replay the previous GSL IM would get enough points to make it in. That's why it's a good system.
I hate it when a good rule is seen as a bad rule simply because it did not serve its purpose one time. I think anyone with some common sense can see the qualification system for GSTL is fair and objective. Good rules must serve their purpose the majority of the time. No rule allows for 100% good results.
It would be a good rule if it accounted for how far into code s/a the players on the team made it, maby on their point based system. Now it doesnt matter if the team only has players in the round of 32, or they make it far into the brackets.
I thought you above all would understand that this is not a good rule.
I hate how nobody's discussing the sexyness of Belshir Beach's layout, the map looks like it's perfect for macro-oriented playstyle (ramp in your own base to get rid of pressure on your nat? How cool is that?!) while delivering a new graphical style for maps with a nice nice layout. :3
On May 10 2011 22:28 Koshi wrote: IM not there? That is pretty sad. They have MvP who won the code A finals and Nestea who will win the Code S finals. Bad Bad decision. So it is better to have 10 scrubs in code A in your team than the winners of Code A and Code S...
MVP didnt win the Code finals. But I still have to agree: IM deserves a spot. Sticking to the rules is fine, if the rules are right - but they aren't. They don't seem to have rules for the bracket based on their ranking system or previous results which is another major flaw. I'd like to add that they should have waited for the up/down matches to be finished before they make their ranking. Otherwise their system let them invite teams based on results form last season and not their current strength.
These are rules. Just like TL Mods have to follow rules when dealing with offenses no matter what, GomTV has to follow them as well. IM did not qualify, and that will motivate them to recruit better players.
Team leagues are way different from solo leagues.
Go Slayers :D
Basing it off total GSL team league points is really bad because it means the ones that were in the league before have a far better advantage. Basing it off the # of members in the GSL is good because if your teams' players are good they (not one or two) will make it into the GSL.
I feel despite the fact that IM isn't there, people should try to look at it with a more positive light.
1. MVP are actually a pretty decent team.
2. While ZeNEX and fOu are on HUGE declines, there're always chances for upsets. And if anything it's a chance for them to prove themselves. (now that all their players are out of Code A... just left with sC). It could be potentially their last chance.
3. GSTL provides players who haven't been in the GSL before a chance to prove and show themselves (most of the time it goes terribly bad... Frozen, Icecream) but a lot of times you'll get to see some of them actually play extremely well (Puma, Ryung, Seed, Yonghwa, Min). So well in fact that they never seem to be able to show that same amount of hype in individual tournaments.
4. I was actually pretty disappointed last year that IM fielded MVP and Losira first especially in the early rounds.
On May 10 2011 14:13 JJH777 wrote: Wow definitely not buying a ticket. That's ridiculous. IM is the reason the first two team league were so amazing.
woah this is a bit of an overreaction isnt it? gom are trying their best to make it fair. i hope you do get a ticket, otherwise you are missing out on basically the best sc2 tournament that gom hosts - team league rocks dude!
Everyone here saying that its sad that IM is not there mostly is sad about nestea and MVP not participating...wich i think is kinda stupid. IM is not just those two. Wich makes GOMs desicion even more depressing considering all the talent that IM has to offer besides MVP an Nestea (Losira, Yonghwa, Seed, Junwi)
On May 10 2011 22:16 tooPrime wrote: But the rules aren't good. A major Code S player is not worth only 60% more than a Ro32 Code Aer.
What they should do is base it off total team gsl points.
MPV has 10504 Nestea has 4749 LosirA has 1030.
That's 16,283 for IM.
Team MVP has 2,211 from 10 different players.
This is just a horrible suggestion. It would mean any previously great team not being currently relevant anymore stays in GSTL forever. It also means that 1 code S player can be worth more points than 5 code S players. So a team with 1 good player would make it into GSTL opposed to a team with 5 good players.
I saw the suggestion that as a minor adjustment to the rule they can invite the two finalists as a default and then pick the 6 next highest teams. I think that's the best way to go about it in the future.
On May 10 2011 22:28 Koshi wrote: IM not there? That is pretty sad. They have MvP who won the code A finals and Nestea who will win the Code S finals. Bad Bad decision. So it is better to have 10 scrubs in code A in your team than the winners of Code A and Code S...
I don't know what Code A finals you watched, but the one I did had Bomber beating MVP 4-2.
And they can't go back and change rules to get IM in now instead of some other team. The only thing they might have done to fix it this season was expand the teamleague to 10 teams. They had since Code A qualifiers were done to think about it, so I reckon their decision is done for this season.
On May 10 2011 22:28 Koshi wrote: IM not there? That is pretty sad. They have MvP who won the code A finals and Nestea who will win the Code S finals. Bad Bad decision. So it is better to have 10 scrubs in code A in your team than the winners of Code A and Code S...
MVP didnt win the Code finals. But I still have to agree: IM deserves a spot. Sticking to the rules is fine, if the rules are right - but they aren't. They don't seem to have rules for the bracket based on their ranking system or previous results which is another major flaw. I'd like to add that they should have waited for the up/down matches to be finished before they make their ranking. Otherwise their system let them invite teams based on results form last season and not their current strength.
How would that work? Would you still count the players that fell out of Code A that season and just swap the ranking of the people that went up or down?
If that would be the case, IM might not have made it into GSTL season 2, since they were tied for last place with Liquid and either fOu or Zenex, don't remember exactly.
Yes, IM should be in the GSTL. But we should also have a Nada/Nestea finals in Code S. Where do you draw the line between having the people you want, and the people that actually got there? IM didn't get the points, and they knew that it could happen since they were at 7-8th place in points in both previous GSTL.
On May 10 2011 23:06 zarepath wrote: I think the real story here is that if Haypro were Code S, Liquid would have the eighth spot. How cool would that be?
Except you can't qualify for the GSTL if you don't have enough players (I think it was 4 or 7 minimum)
Just a simple question are there enough teams (including code B) to do a round of 16?
I really like the teamleague but it feels a little bit to short. It would be nice to have more foreign team to join as well.(when possible) Now in the first round some matches could be a final match. It would be nice to see some 'unknown' teams/players rise as well and have some more games
On May 10 2011 23:15 laonda wrote: Just a simple question are there enough teams (including code B) to do a round of 16?
I really like the teamleague but it feels a little bit to short. It would be nice to have more foreign team to join as well.(when possible) Now in the first round some matches could be a final match. It would be nice to see some 'unknown' teams/players rise as well and have some more games
Nope. There are only 10 (those 8 teams qualified + IM and NSHoseo). Most of the "Code B" players who are not on teams eventually end up getting picked up by one of the 10 teams if they qualify for Code A (eg Creator, Nuts and Brown). And then there's also WeMadeFox, which basically has 3 players.
And I do agree with you that the team league is way too short and doesn't do enough to promote non-GSL qualified players, which should be the point of the GSTL.
A team league similar to BW's Proleague would definitely be ideal, but I'm not too sure about the feasibility of it at this moment (from a GOM and sponsor perspective).
There was a ZOTAC Invitational Teamleague, (which was a real league where every team played every team) but that was mostly un-broadcasted IIRC. But I think more attempts at that should be made. Even if it remains unbroadcasted, most people who follow the SC2 competitive scene would actually follow it anyway.
EDIT: The main problem in KR though is that there are very few tournaments. Aside from the GSL there's nothing much else for players who don't qualify but to wait for the GSTL or next GSL.
New rules: - Last GSL champion's team automatically invited - Last GSL runner up's team automatically invited - Last GSTL both finalist's automatically invited - One foreigner team automatically invited - If there are not enough foreign players from one team in SK the "Foreigners" team is formed, where every foreigner in Korea is part of. It is, of course, automatically invited. (Yes, that means the "Casting Archon" would participate in a 2vs1 since you never split up archons). - A poll is added to GOM's website, where fans can vote for their favourite team. Top2 get automatically invited. - A poll is added to GOM's website, where fans can vote for their most hated team. Top2 get removed.
With those rules GOM never has to fear that an underserving team is in the GSTL and every fan is happy with it.
Btw - "they should wait for Up&Down" - they did. They considered the Up & Downmatches and the Code A qualifiers for GSL March. The next GSTL will consider this ones Up & Down matches & the next one Code A qualifiers.
Concerning the new map, is the whitey area in the middle of the map walkeable water War3-style? If so, that means no building there, and very limited building at the expansions. No turrets and bunkers until you're across. Limited forward pylon placement. Interesting ideas, wonder how that would play out.
Now after every GSL season we have 3 days of GSTL before next season of individual tournament. So what if they do both of this at same time? I mean GSL form monday to friday, and then one GSTL match at saturday? They could add more teams and do something like Chicane suggested:
On May 10 2011 14:14 Chicane wrote: I think the best solution would simply be to have 2 groups of 5 where the 5 teams play round robin. The top 2 of each group of 5 go against the 3rd and 4th teams
Wow this is a terrible system considering that IM has 3 of the best players in SC2. It should also count for the player's rank in the tournaments so that a player like Nestea would earn his team more points.
On May 10 2011 23:21 Zocat wrote: New rules: - Last GSL champion's team automatically invited - Last GSL runner up's team automatically invited
Individual results are pointless. Squirtle all killed a team and has never made Code S. Teams shouldn't be decided by 1 good player.
edit: The Squirtle example is to say that if an entire team is weak except for 1 player (Feb. fOu) a good player (Squirtle) who beats that 1 player (sC) can take out the entire team.
- One foreigner team automatically invited
I don't know how I can put this without "trolling". But that's a terrible idea. Affirmative Action Esports. If foreigners could compete, they'd be competing.
- A poll is added to GOM's website, where fans can vote for their favourite team. Top2 get automatically invited. - A poll is added to GOM's website, where fans can vote for their most hated team. Top2 get removed.
Popular =/= Deserving. You don't see ROOTDestiny getting seeded in North American tournaments. As cool as he is, you have to win to win. More people watch SeleCT vs IdrA than Destiny vs Combatex, because you want to see good games. Streaming is another story. Don't mistake popularity for audience.
With those rules GOM never has to fear that an underserving team is in the GSTL and every fan is happy with it.
Wrong. Maybe a lot of people get mad at MC for playing in foreign tournaments and they "hate" vote oGs out of the competition. Again, tournaments are not popularity contests.
Btw - "they should wait for Up&Down" - they did. They considered the Up & Downmatches and the Code A qualifiers for GSL March. The next GSTL will consider this ones Up & Down matches & the next one Code A qualifiers.
They definitely should have waited for up and downs. I agree there.
On May 10 2011 23:33 kirbynator wrote: nothing about it looks like turtle rock... cept there's some water
and the ranks do matter for points, its MVP's fault for dropping to code A and massively losing points for his team
I meant that it should matter within their own tournament as well. For example, Nestea should be worth more than MC because he is going to finish ranked 1st or 2nd in May and MVP should be worth more than every other Code A player other than Bomber.
On May 10 2011 23:21 Zocat wrote: New rules: - Last GSL champion's team automatically invited - Last GSL runner up's team automatically invited - Last GSTL both finalist's automatically invited - One foreigner team automatically invited - If there are not enough foreign players from one team in SK the "Foreigners" team is formed, where every foreigner in Korea is part of. It is, of course, automatically invited. (Yes, that means the "Casting Archon" would participate in a 2vs1 since you never split up archons). - A poll is added to GOM's website, where fans can vote for their favourite team. Top2 get automatically invited. - A poll is added to GOM's website, where fans can vote for their most hated team. Top2 get removed.
With those rules GOM never has to fear that an underserving team is in the GSTL and every fan is happy with it.
Btw - "they should wait for Up&Down" - they did. They considered the Up & Downmatches and the Code A qualifiers for GSL March. The next GSTL will consider this ones Up & Down matches & the next one Code A qualifiers.
Edit for derp, I really need to catch some sleep. I can't even detect sarcasm ;_;
On May 10 2011 23:32 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Wow this is a terrible system considering that IM has 3 of the best players in SC2. It should also count for the player's rank in the tournaments so that a player like Nestea would earn his team more points.
Also, is that supposed to be Turtle Rock?
This is a team league, you know what a "TEAM" is right? IM doesn't consist of only Nestea and MVP. The reason they won and 2nd place finish because of the KOTH format.
i don't mind the current system. they should not have to kick out one of the other teams to make room for a team that could not field more than three GSL quality players, regardless of how good they are.
On May 10 2011 23:38 act.hero wrote: They definitely should have waited for up and downs. I agree there.
And what if IM didn't get into GSTL previous season because they had waited for up/down, and MVP went down?
The results in the up/down DO count, they count 100% for the next season. Even if MVP/Nestea/Losira fall down to code A next season, they'll still all count as code S players when it comes to seeding for GSTL 4.
On May 10 2011 23:24 Nidoa wrote: Concerning the new map, is the whitey area in the middle of the map walkeable water War3-style? If so, that means no building there, and very limited building at the expansions. No turrets and bunkers until you're across. Limited forward pylon placement. Interesting ideas, wonder how that would play out.
I don't understand why people can clamor for IM to be included when they failed to gather enough points. MVP having a poor run of form and falling to code A is tenuously analogous to a star player getting injured in any another sport. Can we just say that Arsenal deserve the Premier League title because when Cesc and RVP were injury free they were the best team? No. A similar analogy can be made in the NFL. Last year, Tony Romo got injured and the Cowboys missed the playoffs. The team got unlucky/MVP had a poor run of form at the wrong time. It is too bad for them but there is no reason that another team should be penalized because IM fucked up.
Even though this wouldn't affect the current tournament, GOM does need to add a "previous winners automatically qualify" clause to the tournament.
Quality > Quantity. The qualifying teams for this shouldn't be decided just based off of how many random mediocre players they can gather. Not inviting the team that currently has the best team results so far is wrong, no ifs/ands/buts about it.
You know, come to think about it, after this GSTL and since we're coming to the mid year mark for 2011, it could be time for GOM to make a new announcement about their upcoming plans and change whatever rules which might be obsolete. Could be a time for them to start experimenting in anticipation for future tournament formats.
Who knows, maybe a month long Team League in place of one of its regular GSLs? This team league will have a bigger prize pool and consist of all 10 teams and will have a single league format rather than the single elimination format they have now.
Can't say I disagree with gom, the rules were out and obvious to all since the first GSTL, maybe IM should have been looking to recruit or gotten more of their current roaster into Code A / S. However, at the same time I would like to see the GSTL expand beyond Top 8 just because I want more games! Maybe Top 7 on Points then 8-11 have a play off for the 8th spot, since we really don't have enough teams to do a full Top 16.
On May 11 2011 00:00 Tachion wrote: Quality > Quantity. The qualifying teams for this shouldn't be decided just based off of how many random mediocre players they can gather. Not inviting the team that currently has the best team results so far is wrong, no ifs/ands/buts about it.
oGs does have better results, they just happen to spread it amongst their players moreso than IM does
On May 11 2011 00:00 Tachion wrote: Quality > Quantity. The qualifying teams for this shouldn't be decided just based off of how many random mediocre players they can gather. Not inviting the team that currently has the best team results so far is wrong, no ifs/ands/buts about it.
oGs does have better results, they just happen to spread it amongst their players moreso than IM does
By team results I was referring to their performance in the previous team leagues.
Aw, I was really looking forward to seeing Losira break some nerd necks again. Anyways, I'm sure this GSTL is going to be awesome --- even without IM. Can't wait to see some action on Bel'shir Beach.
Wow. Bunch of people in here that think the team IM is entitled to something. They're not. If they deserved to be in this month's GSTL they would have qualified plain and simple. While Nestea, MVP, and LosirA are straight boss mode, 2 Code S players and a Code A player is not good enough to qualify anymore. For those complaining that Up/Down Matches should count...they do for next season. If they counted for the upcoming season IM would have been excluded in the last GSTL.
You have no one to blame but the IM team for them being excluded. They obviously should have done a better job recruiting quality players or helping their current, underperforming players (Seed, Yongwha, Yoda, etc.) get into Code A.
This is a Starcraft 2 League not a daycare. People don't get handouts.
And lol @ the guy who said a foreign team should get an automatic seed.
Popular =/= Deserving. You don't see ROOTDestiny getting seeded in North American tournaments. As cool as he is, you have to win to win. More people watch SeleCT vs IdrA than Destiny vs Combatex, because you want to see good games. Streaming is another story. Don't mistake popularity for audience.
After watching a 2v2 game, destiny + combatex with their skype on. i would love to see them 1v1 (with their skype on lol)
On May 10 2011 14:06 blade55555 wrote: wow thats interesting (IM has made it too the finals both times won once, lost once right?). Yeah GOM needs too fix that somehow xD. But glad too see another team league. I really hope there's a "proleague" like system like bw where its 4 1v1's and an ace 1v1 and switches with winners league every x amount of months.
A bit sad, that a IM is not in this but fOu is. I think IM is the much better team. Next time than.
At the second part I agree with you, it qould be awesome to have such a switching team league. Also a real LEAGUE.
On May 11 2011 00:31 shell wrote: They don't have the points they are out.. it's fair and square!
The system is silly though. The games played (in both GSL and GSTL) are 1v1s. Therefore the number of players you have on your team that are in GSL is basically irrelevant. More important is the total skill level of all of your individual players... I realize this is hard to quantify, but a pure count of your players in GSL is almost meaningless.
I'd rather see a scoring system based upon the accomplishments of the players for all of the teams, added up.
On May 11 2011 00:31 shell wrote: They don't have the points they are out.. it's fair and square!
The system is silly though. The games played (in both GSL and GSTL) are 1v1s. Therefore the number of players you have on your team that are in GSL is basically irrelevant. More important is the total skill level of all of your individual players... I realize this is hard to quantify, but a pure count of your players in GSL is almost meaningless.
I'd rather see a scoring system based upon the accomplishments of the players for all of the teams, added up.
i would say that a stronger team should have more people in code S/A? if u have 10 players and only 2 are in S/A, u could suggest that "the total skill level of your individual players" isnt high.
Sure, the qualification process might not be optimal, but given the current state there is no way they can exclude another team in order to let IM qualify.
I would like to see some variation in awarding points though. The winner of Code S should earn more points than a Ro32 finisher. Previous team leagues should also be taken into account.
In fact, I'd like the whole team league thing to expand a little. There must be some up and coming teams out there who'd like a chance?
Hmm. What if MVP made it back into Code S? That will ensure IM's participation in the GSTL. Hopefully that works out. Much rather see MVP/Losira/Nestea owning noobs then choya/twilight/leenock etc.
On May 11 2011 00:48 labbe wrote: Bleh, This will be the first Team League that i don't by Premium for. Has like 80% of all the players that I want to see.
The new map looks really cool although I don't see it being an ideal map for Zerg.
Unless I am looking at the image wrong it appears that the natural and 3rd bases have ramps leading directly to them.
This could be really useful for Terran and Protoss as Terran can just planetary at both without any worries of it being taken over while the Protoss can just place 3+ cannons and have the same peace of mind.
Zerg can place spine crawlers sure but by the time the Zerg are on 3 base the enemy should have sufficient units to laugh at the spine crawlers. Tank pushes or Colossi ranged attacks pretty much make spine crawlers useless not to mention spines are just terrible in the first place and can be avoided easily.
On May 11 2011 00:46 spaZzNx-` wrote: Hmm. What if MVP made it back into Code S? That will ensure IM's participation in the GSTL. Hopefully that works out. Much rather see MVP/Losira/Nestea owning noobs then choya/twilight/leenock etc.
If MVP gets back to Code S, it will most likely mean they'll get into GSTL next season, since they'll have guaranteed 5.8 points from Losira/Nestea/MVP/Nuts, and might get someone else through code A qualifiers. It won't change the upcoming GSTL though, those standings are from the beginning of GSL May and have been known for about a month now.
On May 11 2011 00:42 Geo.Rion wrote: well that s a major bummer, since IM was pretty much the only team which used Zergs in the last GSTL
Yeah, it will be a shame that there will be a lack of top Zerg players. Hopefully July and Fruitdealer will play this season, and maybe Zenio who showed impressive play vs Jinro a few days ago (that's if they advance past the first round!)
oh god lol this is going to induce some QQ. Also, lol oGs got the hardest team first round again (IM won, SlayerS won, and without IM ST has a very good chance this season)
To put it in perspective though, TSL has just as little players as IM (both small teams) but TSL has almost all their players in Code S.
Man, people sure love to complain about invites until their favourite player/team doesn't make it through the qualifiers. So predictable. :lol
GOM, you did no wrong, IM didn't perform well enough in the individual GSL, that's all that needs to be said. Inviting IM over a team that has performed better than them and has more points would be undermining the credibility of the league. So would changing the qualification process right before this event.
I didn't hear anyone complaining about the process before, prime example of hypocrisy at work here. They can change the qualification process after this event if they want, but not now.
Already loved Belshir Beach when it was posted by LSPrime here on TL, happy that they've chosen to incorporate it into the pool, it looks really cool. Reminds me of a WC3 map.
On May 11 2011 00:38 VGhost wrote: I'm confused by a team league that
1) is decided based on individual league standings
and
2) has no regular season, only a playoff.
I mean, that's fine for a show league (cf. the STX Masters) but if you want to establish an actual team league... this is not how you do it.
1) Since these are one-off events of the regular seasonal GSL play, it's only normal that they decide it this way. Especially since their criteria emphasises the strength of the lineup (# of players) over the strength of individual players.
2) Despite the name, these are only spin-off tournaments, not leagues. Also see: IPL.
It's a TEAM league! SlayerS won last time, not because the individual players were better than IM, because they were a better team than IM. In the same vein I think GOM needs to sort out the system so good teams get to play in the Ro8, not just teams that have good individual players in them.
It's really disappointing that IM won't be in the GSTL May, but I don't think that GOM should change the format just to accommodate them. Hopefully IM's players will perform during the next qualifiers so their place in the GSTL will be secure...
Very nice map. I like how the middle has a very small choke with the trees and anyone who is simply attack moving their army to the other base will be forced to siphon their troops through the choke and essentially leave themselves open for a devastation counterattack.
The small elevated portion in each main is rather interesting. It seems ideal for a place to hide hidden tech or even proxies. Can't wait to see BoxeR try to drop marines/scvs there and start a lategame bunker rush xD
Because the choke for the natural is so huge I don't think this map will encourage as big of a macro game as a map such as Tal'darim does but that in of itself isn't a terrible thing considering GSTL already has plenty large maps.
That map looks really nice. I like the beach theme. It looks like it might be easier to take a gold third than what i can only assume would be your natural third.
On May 11 2011 01:09 Lord_J wrote: It's really disappointing that IM won't be in the GSTL May, but I don't think that GOM should change the format just to accommodate them. Hopefully IM's players will perform during the next qualifiers so their place in the GSTL will be secure...
Of course they can't change it for this season, that would be ridiculous. But they definitely need to change it for the next season, it's kind of stupid that fOu is rated higher even though all their Code A players lost in the first round.
I totally support Gom´s decision there, it wouldn´t be fair to change the rule just to get one team who didn´t ACHIEVE it by the performance of ALL their players.
The only change i could agree on, and definitely not for this season for obvious reason of fairness, would be to limit the number of players giving points to a team to a number like 6. 6 good players for a team league seems better than 10 barely code A. This would be useless at the moment though, and would only be really justified if the players taking part in the league were the players giving points to their team in the qualification process. They should nevertheless think about it before a really bad team gets in over a good one only because they had 12 players in code A against 4 code S and 4 code A (this is definitely not the situation at the moment, IM has just enough qualifying players to make a full line-up, their bad).
P.S. : once again, i know such a situation is very unliekly, but that would be really stupid.
EDIT : also for next year changing the moment when the points are counted to make it after up/down matches would make more sense, that is true.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
I think TOP is fine but leaving this adjective aside from the important part TEAM is an error. 3-4 players does not make a team better than one who places 5-9 players in the same code A and S.
On May 10 2011 22:16 tooPrime wrote: But the rules aren't good. A major Code S player is not worth only 60% more than a Ro32 Code Aer.
What they should do is base it off total team gsl points.
MPV has 10504 Nestea has 4749 LosirA has 1030.
That's 16,283 for IM.
Team MVP has 2,211 from 10 different players.
This is just a horrible suggestion. It would mean any previously great team not being currently relevant anymore stays in GSTL forever. It also means that 1 code S player can be worth more points than 5 code S players. So a team with 1 good player would make it into GSTL opposed to a team with 5 good players.
I saw the suggestion that as a minor adjustment to the rule they can invite the two finalists as a default and then pick the 6 next highest teams. I think that's the best way to go about it in the future.
That would be easy enough to fix. You would just use the points from the last 2 or 3 tournaments, or have points deteriorate over time. There are a lot of better systems, I was just disputing your claim that the system was good enough and would be viable 99% of the time.
Regardless, Team MVP's 3 Ro32 Code A players should not be worth 3 points, while Nestea and MVP are worth 2.6.
dont see the problem with IM not being in it... the formulae is their, it was used previously, nobody complained then. IM needs to have more players peform in the gsl.
On May 11 2011 01:09 Lord_J wrote: It's really disappointing that IM won't be in the GSTL May, but I don't think that GOM should change the format just to accommodate them. Hopefully IM's players will perform during the next qualifiers so their place in the GSTL will be secure...
Of course they can't change it for this season, that would be ridiculous. But they definitely need to change it for the next season, it's kind of stupid that fOu is rated higher even though all their Code A players lost in the first round.
Well, unless the fOu players requalify for Code A en masse they will be out anyway for the next GSTL either way.
I do agree that they might want to look at tweaking the formula for future GSTLs anyway, though. It just seems intuitively wrong that two Code A players who lose in the Ro32 count for more than the Code S champion...
The problem is that quantity("depth") plays a big role in getting teams into this league while the league it self emphasizes "quality" more.
In winners league having 1-2 top ace players is better than having 3-5 very good but slightly worse players since on a good day the former can clear a whole team of the latter.
Having a top heavy team is better in the league but to get into it you need qunatity or at least a certain form of depth.
It's also really not that discriminatory between players getting 0-2 in groups/ro32 or making finals, winning, or has a high chance of upgrading his status pretty much immediately.
On May 11 2011 01:35 Zaffy wrote: dont see the problem with IM not being in it... the formulae is their, it was used previously, nobody complained then. IM needs to have more players peform in the gsl.
Actually people did complain because it meant Liquid couldn't participate.
As some of the others I have to agree that IM not being there is kinda' crappy, but understandable. They should devise a new formula, or, better yet, hope we get more than 8 teams for the future. What bothers me more, also like some people, is how the seeding is done. OgS is #1 but still takes on the #4 seed in an 8 slot tourny. wot
It's all about that map! I love it, I remember a post a while ago about "dark maps" and it is too depressing to watch StarCraft with the current map pool. There is no argument against that now!
On May 11 2011 01:35 Zaffy wrote: dont see the problem with IM not being in it... the formulae is their, it was used previously, nobody complained then. IM needs to have more players peform in the gsl.
Actually people did complain because it meant Liquid couldn't participate.
I would really struggle to even come up with a qualifier process that would have Team Liquid in the Top 8. :lol
Aside from the fact that they don't have enough players in Korea to even be eligible to participate. :p
Instead of blaming GOM for putting together a reasonable tournament structure, why not give some hate to IM for not having more than 3 players in the GSL? All they needed was someone to make it into Code A last season and they'd have qualified. IM didn't make it in because IM doesn't have a deep enough roster. I have no problem with the placement.
All that said, I'm really looking forward to the team league. I'll be done with finals, so I'll have plenty of time to watch! :-D
I'd just like to point out that TSL and IM have around the same number of players (both small teams), but TSL has almost all of there players in GSL, and most of those in Code S. IM's lesser players need to stop being carried by the trifecta : /
In a Proleague format (as opposed to Winner's League) I don't think IM would do nearly as well.
On May 11 2011 01:59 GeorgeForeman wrote: Instead of blaming GOM for putting together a reasonable tournament structure, why not give some hate to IM for not having more than 3 players in the GSL? All they needed was someone to make it into Code A last season and they'd have qualified. IM didn't make it in because IM doesn't have a deep enough roster. I have no problem with the placement.
All that said, I'm really looking forward to the team league. I'll be done with finals, so I'll have plenty of time to watch! :-D
It seems that the players they have now are enough for winning 1 GSTL and being in the other GSTL finals. They also have 2 GSL champions, 1 World Champion, 1 Code A winner, 1 Code A Runner-up and very likely another Code S win. Why would they need more players?
On May 11 2011 02:01 mikyaJ wrote: I'd just like to point out that TSL and IM have around the same number of players (both small teams), but TSL has almost all of there players in GSL, and most of those in Code S. IM's lesser players need to stop being carried by the trifecta : /
In a Proleague format (as opposed to Winner's League) I don't think IM would do nearly as well.
Why? They have the equivalent of FBB (Fantasy / Bisu / Best) with LMN (Losira / MVP / Nestea). And SKT does fairly well in Pro League lol
The first thing that jumps out is obviously the lack of IM. I have to say that I'm disapointed, because MVP and Nestea are two of the main reasons I watch GSL. HOWEVER - I do have to say it's justified. This is a team league, and so far the IM team just aren't performing well enough besides their top two players.
The second thing that jumps out is the ST vs oGs match in the first round. It seems a little bizarre that if you're going to use a point system to determine qualifying teams that you would then put the 1st and 4th highest teams in terms of points against eachother in round 1.
Those issues aside, I'm looking forward to it. GSTL has proved to be an entertaining league and format and will definately be worth watching.
On May 11 2011 01:59 GeorgeForeman wrote: Instead of blaming GOM for putting together a reasonable tournament structure, why not give some hate to IM for not having more than 3 players in the GSL? All they needed was someone to make it into Code A last season and they'd have qualified. IM didn't make it in because IM doesn't have a deep enough roster. I have no problem with the placement.
All that said, I'm really looking forward to the team league. I'll be done with finals, so I'll have plenty of time to watch! :-D
It seems that the players they have now are enough for winning 1 GSTL and being in the other GSTL finals. They also have 2 GSL champions, 1 World Champion, 1 Code A winner, 1 Code A Runner-up and very likely another Code S win. Why would they more players?
It seems pretty straightforward the reasons why they were not included in the GSTL. Last GSTL, they got spanked by `SlayerS`, and it's a shame they were even allowed to play because all they ended up doing was knocking out other teams that actually had a chance at beating SlayerS.
On May 10 2011 14:10 Belisarius wrote: Also, totally ignoring the IM thing because it's pretty obviously retarded; what the heck is up with the brackets? oGs (1st) plays ST (4th) in the first round. Seriously, guys, seeds. Seeds are good. At least SlayerS is on the other side of the bracket.
They randomize them because you could end up having the same bracket over and over.
The formula they use doesn't account that only 4 people get to play, the previous season, and that there is a difference between the code S group. Having 9 code A players is certainly worse than 4 code S players in a bo7.
The formula should take the top 5 players and add their GSL points together.
On May 10 2011 14:10 Belisarius wrote: Also, totally ignoring the IM thing because it's pretty obviously retarded; what the heck is up with the brackets? oGs (1st) plays ST (4th) in the first round. Seriously, guys, seeds. Seeds are good. At least SlayerS is on the other side of the bracket.
They randomize them because you could end up having the same bracket over and over.
Its based of the point system which is flawed. The first seed is the previous championship team and the the rest of the seeds is based on quantity of players in the GSL. That's why Ogs is always the second seed yet have never won a series in the GSTL.
On May 10 2011 14:21 0neder wrote: Naming yourself MVP doesn't guarantee your team a GSTL seed, you have to win, and he's been choking lately. I for one am excited to see more undiscovered talent.
Choking? Are you in the same universe as the rest of us?
I really like IM but I think it's ok. There has to be a system that decides who gets to play. Since you need 7 competent players for the Team League, having the seeding be based on the number of players in the GSL where Code S weighs heavier seems fine.
When you look at IM they have 4 players in the GSL and thus at least 3 who could get to play in the Team League who aren't. Does that mean those 3 players are bad? No ofcourse not.
But what if we sent my fictional team in and I'd have 3 player who are, that would be like a forfeit. So taking the ability of the players on a team from the GSL seems like one of the most fair. Also because now we get to see a different team! Maybe they are gonna stomp, who knows. And to note, the GSL doesn't use ranking which I think is good, it only counts the amount and the Code.
Maybe a carry over could be used where the placing in previous Team Leagues grants a few points for the next but I wouldn't even know how that would be fair, that could make it much harder for teams to rotate. So I don't think it's really possible to have a system where you remember the results of the past.
In the end for a best case scenario solution I can only agree with many before me. A proleague, winners league thing where there doesn't have to be a cap on the number of teams. To help advance that we just need to enjoy the GSTL and show our support and interest. Tasteless has already hinted at to be revealed GOM plans. Who knows what the future will hold.
That new maps looks ice cool, I've been waiting for a snowy map since forever and this seems to come close. I'm really excited.
It would be cool if Liquid picked up some more top foreigners and sent them to Korea. Naniwa, Thorzain, Nerchio, Hasu, Sen, Strelock. I know they all have teams just wish full thinking.
I'll buy the ticket, teamleague is great. Too bad about IM but if the rules are set in advance you can't just change them. Also IM need to beef up their force, i think this experience will do just that for them. Might be good, right?
On May 11 2011 02:04 Grezzz wrote: The first thing that jumps out is obviously the lack of IM. I have to say that I'm disapointed, because MVP and Nestea are two of the main reasons I watch GSL. HOWEVER - I do have to say it's justified. This is a team league, and so far the IM team just aren't performing well enough besides their top two players.
The second thing that jumps out is the ST vs oGs match in the first round. It seems a little bizarre that if you're going to use a point system to determine qualifying teams that you would then put the 1st and 4th highest teams in terms of points against eachother in round 1.
Those issues aside, I'm looking forward to it. GSTL has proved to be an entertaining league and format and will definately be worth watching.
It seems that brackets are based on previous GSTLs because Slayers and Startale are on different sides of the bracket and OGS had rather poor performances.
IM failed the qualification, brutal but fair. don't blame the system now and say it's stupid... hindsight is 20:20. Hopefully this will motivate IM to up their game even more. I want Seed in code A!
i really wish that new map was on EU, it's beautiful.
Real quickly, does anyone know the prize pool for the GSTL? I am intimately familiar with the prize pools that were published about the GSL Code-S and Code-A, but I haven't seen any numbers regarding the teamleague. Thanks in advance
On May 11 2011 01:57 ReaperX wrote: I feel so bad about IM not being able to play... Although I respect GOM, they should do something like total the player's GSL points in total
so one gsl champion player can carry a whole team?
On May 11 2011 02:23 OPL3SA2 wrote: Real quickly, does anyone know the prize pool for the GSTL? I am intimately familiar with the prize pools that were published about the GSL Code-S and Code-A, but I haven't seen any numbers regarding the teamleague. Thanks in advance
Although this is disappointing to not have the team with 2 GSL champions and a top 5 in the world zerg (Losira) I think that this is only fair that the groups with the better team performance get in. You could definatly make an argument for MVP or fOU to not be in, given there recent poor performances but all told I think that this is fair.
Additionallly I am excited to see this new map get integrated, I looks like a macro map but its only a 2 player map making it smaller. We may see some interesting engagements when people figure this new map out.
On May 11 2011 02:01 mikyaJ wrote: I'd just like to point out that TSL and IM have around the same number of players (both small teams), but TSL has almost all of there players in GSL, and most of those in Code S. IM's lesser players need to stop being carried by the trifecta : /
In a Proleague format (as opposed to Winner's League) I don't think IM would do nearly as well.
Actually, IM players outside the trifecta have 10-5 stats in GSTL, and the trifecta has 15-7. The trifecta outsiders are being carried by Yonghwa(7-2) and Seed(3-1) though. They have overall good players in the teamleague, they just need more players to get into code A.
On May 11 2011 01:57 ReaperX wrote: I feel so bad about IM not being able to play... Although I respect GOM, they should do something like total the player's GSL points in total
so one gsl champion player can carry a whole team?
I really dislike the new map for pvz early game. The nat is too wide open to fe and there is no ramp into the main so the wall in can easily be taken out by a bust.
On May 11 2011 01:57 ReaperX wrote: I feel so bad about IM not being able to play... Although I respect GOM, they should do something like total the player's GSL points in total
so one gsl champion player can carry a whole team?
Fun fact: A team could have 16 people qualify for code A and get knocked out in RO32, along with 12 people in Code S going to up/down matches, and they would still not have as many points as the one player that won code S (4960 points vs 5000). 16 people in code S RO32 would be worth 200 points less than code S winner.
On May 11 2011 02:31 Steel wrote: Won't the points change after up and down matches...
They probably should of waited
Points won't change for this GSTL, but the results of the up/down matches will affect GSTL 4. That's because you have the standings at the beginning of the season instead of the end, you get the up/down of previous GSL along with the code A qualifiers.
It looks amazing and the middle will be really interesting playground. Oh god. I NEED to play that on the ladder. I wish blizzard would swap ladder maps every month or something.
I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
I'm kind of surprised that the two best teams of the previous team league don't get +2 or +1 to their score in addition to the Code S + Code A points. That way IM would be in, and it would assure that the most deserving team competes in the league.
To sum the things up: 1) IM is top heavy with low level of the bench. 2) They fail at training their code B players 3) They arent very active at headhunting. I know they got Nuts but why didnt they "buy" a code A/S player from other team. Team changes happen all the time in western SC2 (FX and mous for example ). Why cant koreans do it? GOM made it even easy for them. All players playing are required to omit the Team tag from their player account so players transfers are easy.
So in conclusion: IM coaches didnt focus on helping their code B players to improve. Their managers failed the aggressive headhunting. Dont see any fail on GOM part.
I feel like the best system would have been to take the sum of the GSL2011 points of all the players in a given team, and use that to compare each team. Players that go far in the tournament would actually weight more, like I feel it should be...
On May 11 2011 03:10 Frankon wrote: To sum the things up: 1) IM is top heavy with low level of the bench. 2) They fail at training their code B players 3) They arent very active at headhunting. I know they got Nuts but why didnt they "buy" a code A/S player from other team. Team changes happen all the time in western SC2 (FX and mous for example ). Why cant koreans do it? GOM made it even easy for them. All players playing are required to omit the Team tag from their player account so players transfers are easy.
So in conclusion: IM coaches didnt focus on helping their code B players to improve. Their managers failed the aggressive headhunting. Dont see any fail on GOM part.
Hate to agree, partially, but of course it's not always the coaches fault.
But to be quite honest, I do agree with others also who state that the "Champion, and second place" should get extra points so they are automatically in the GSTL, all the good games last season weren't just played with the stars of IM.
It's either top 2 should get extra points, or points shouldn't even be considered.
On May 11 2011 03:10 Frankon wrote: To sum the things up: 1) IM is top heavy with low level of the bench. 2) They fail at training their code B players 3) They arent very active at headhunting. I know they got Nuts but why didnt they "buy" a code A/S player from other team. Team changes happen all the time in western SC2 (FX and mous for example ). Why cant koreans do it? GOM made it even easy for them. All players playing are required to omit the Team tag from their player account so players transfers are easy.
So in conclusion: IM coaches didnt focus on helping their code B players to improve. Their managers failed the aggressive headhunting. Dont see any fail on GOM part.
Last season when IM came in as the 7th or 8th seeded team in the GSTL I was worried something like this would happen :/ Apparently, it did. I think teams should get more points for Code S semi-finals or finals appearances. Just a couple players like that should be enough to make for an exciting team battle. With Nestea and MVP picking up more points for their results, IM would make it in easily.
On May 11 2011 03:10 Frankon wrote: To sum the things up: 1) IM is top heavy with low level of the bench. 2) They fail at training their code B players 3) They arent very active at headhunting. I know they got Nuts but why didnt they "buy" a code A/S player from other team. Team changes happen all the time in western SC2 (FX and mous for example ). Why cant koreans do it? GOM made it even easy for them. All players playing are required to omit the Team tag from their player account so players transfers are easy.
So in conclusion: IM coaches didnt focus on helping their code B players to improve. Their managers failed the aggressive headhunting. Dont see any fail on GOM part.
and the GSTL is worse as a result
Nope... I watch the GSTL for the new players. Not the ones i can see in code A or S. Over 120 baneling rolling, zergling and marine dancing can only happen in GSTL....
Shrug, fOu instead of IM, not sure how I feel about that as only sC has shows results, and everyone else on their team got knocked out in ro32 code A. On the other hand, rules are rules and everyone deserves a shot, fOu did beat out IM with the formula GOM uses.
But hey, I don't make the rules, maybe this situation and peoples unhappiness will make GOM review them for the next team league. Maybe put weighted points based on how far players of the team go in the tourneys. Or maybe not, its nice to see some lesser known players get a chance.
As much as I like to see the top players play, it is also exciting to see new faces. Especially this early in the scene where there is a good potential for someone to come out of nowhere.
I can't help to feel bad for IM though, silver in last GSTL to not even able to participate.
Its good that IM doesnt get to play in this, makes people realize that you actually have to produce good results to get to compete in the team leagues. If we are to call it an e-sport, we must keep in competetive.
From the source page on gomtv, Google Translate translated one of the comments to "And Moses left without a watch to hear". That is one of the most beautiful phrases I've ever read.
If this were proleague format, I might understand GOM's reasoning more behind their team selections/requirements. In this All-kill format though, IM has an incredibly strong team which they've proven multiple times. Being top heavy in this league is waaaayyy more important than having a bunch of random middle level players.
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
On May 11 2011 03:10 Frankon wrote: To sum the things up: 1) IM is top heavy with low level of the bench. 2) They fail at training their code B players 3) They arent very active at headhunting. I know they got Nuts but why didnt they "buy" a code A/S player from other team. Team changes happen all the time in western SC2 (FX and mous for example ). Why cant koreans do it? GOM made it even easy for them. All players playing are required to omit the Team tag from their player account so players transfers are easy.
So in conclusion: IM coaches didnt focus on helping their code B players to improve. Their managers failed the aggressive headhunting. Dont see any fail on GOM part.
and the GSTL is worse as a result
It's not, and it's sad to see that ppl still can't understand the validity of this process.
It's an absurd thing to say that BOTH finalists should get automatic qualification for the next tournament. Totally L-O-L, such thing does not exist.
You'd really want a somewhat corrupt qualification system (don't want to mention any north american league *cough*), or something that's straightforward, and if a TEAM (yep, not 1 or 2 members of it) is good, it'll sure qualify?
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
2 TIME?
I think he is reffereing to Code S January and GSL World Championship. How much people actually value GSL WC is debatable.
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
After the amount of adversity IM went through (being a nobody, having no sponsors, working their asses off to get where they are, trying to get a hold of the foreign scene), I'm disappointed with this. I can understand their method in choosing the teams but it seems like they're just trying to find ways to screw them over.
Think about it like this, they've already worked so hard to get their team where they are now, but now they're not even allowed to join a tournament that's basically showed us some of the best games we've EVER seen. GSTL games were better than those from the actual GSL. Now they have to work even harder than they already had before - I feel like it's not fair.
Why not put in a system where GSTL performances have a little to do with who plays in the next season? Maybe have the top 4 teams be in the next season for sure or something?
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
2 TIME?
Yes 2 time, GSL season 5 and the world championship
No IM is sad but honestly it's the team league, and fOu, based on their point standing is a more well rounded team over the LosirA, NesTea, MVP triple tag team, although they have proven that IMSeed, IMYonghwa, IMNuts etc are all compete players it's just the way it is. IM should be fine next season unless HoSeo or fOu manage to get more points.
On May 11 2011 03:30 hahaimhenry wrote: After the amount of adversity IM went through (being a nobody, having no sponsors, working their asses off to get where they are, trying to get a hold of the foreign scene), I'm disappointed with this. I can understand their method in choosing the teams but it seems like they're just trying to find ways to screw them over.
Think about it like this, they've already worked so hard to get their team where they are now, but now they're not even allowed to join a tournament that's basically showed us some of the best games we've EVER seen. GSTL games were better than those from the actual GSL. Now they have to work even harder than they already had before - I feel like it's not fair.
Why not put in a system where GSTL performances have a little to do with who plays in the next season? Maybe have the top 4 teams be in the next season for sure or something?
The system rewards teams that have a deep roster. IM has a few amazing players, but does not have a deep roster. This system has been in place for all GSTL seasons and is well known by all teams involved. IM hasn't done a good enough job recruiting top talent and training their Code B players (Yongwha/Seed/Yoda) so that they can qualify for Code A.
I understand the argument against IM, but I think it's straight up wrong. MVP is not a good team in my humble opinion; I have yet to see any player from there do anything at all worth noting, whereas IM has the best players in the world.
I know it's a "team" league, but i would have hoped that 4-5 amazing players(Mvp, NesTea, YongHwa, Seed, LosirA) and 2-4 more adequate players would be enough (regardless of position on Code S/A).
You'd think they would base team rankings on previous team league results and not rely solely on individual results in Code A & S. It goes against the entire concept of the league to leave out one of the previous best performers in the team league simply because their team is not as large and thus have an inherent disadvantage when using an accumulation of individual results.
Bleh IM not making it in is really sad. I find it pretty weird as well that the points don't get counted after the UP & DOWN matches are over as IM will most likely have 3 players in code S giving them a top 8 spot. Once again crappy system for counting the teams.. the formula should include results of the players as well as a team with the best players (final Code S, final Code A) just gets screwed now. Why don't they simply add up the individual player scores which exist since they used them to determine the top 8 for the world championship?? Sum of individual scores would surely include IM in the top 4..
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
2 TIME?
I think he is reffereing to Code S January and GSL World Championship. How much people actually value GSL WC is debatable.
If people don't, they should. Even if you ignore the foreigners, the field was pretty stacked. I mean just some nubs like MC, July, Nestea, MKP, Nada, Anypro. MvP got demoted by a fluke and he was the only "code-A" korean in the tournament, the rest were Code-S.
Pretty damn sad that I won't get to see some of my favorite players competing
Really GOM should have taken past team league results in consideration. Still, too late to change the rules for this season. Meh. Hoping for another SlayerS win and looking forward to seeing the map in action
I really feel that Losira, Seed, Yonghwa and of course the IM big guns really brought a lot of fire to this competition. I'm really shocked that anyone is defending this as a good thing, when even Gom have stated that this is an issue that may need to be addressed.
I wish they seeded the brackets but what can you do. In regards to IM, yes it sucks that they won't be in the May TL but they just didn't put enough players in Code S/A. You can't really blame the other teams or GomTV for that. Only in the future can we hope for Code S + Code A + past GSTL results to determine TL participants.
EDIT: It also looks like oGs will be out in the first round again. The past TLs they have shown that they are too Terran heavy and rely too much on MC. I'm hoping that they have a better game plan this time around.
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
2 TIME?
I think he is reffereing to Code S January and GSL World Championship. How much people actually value GSL WC is debatable.
If people don't, they should. Even if you ignore the foreigners, the field was pretty stacked. I mean just some nubs like MC, July, Nestea, MKP, Nada, Anypro. MvP got demoted by a fluke and he was the only "code-A" korean in the tournament, the rest were Code-S.
Wasn't it basically the 8 highest rated GSL Koreans?
On May 11 2011 03:45 Geegeez wrote: I wish they seeded the brackets but what can you do. In regards to IM, yes it sucks that they won't be in the May TL but they just didn't put enough players in Code S/A. You can't really blame the other teams or GomTV for that. Only in the future can we hope for Code S + Code A + past GSTL results to determine TL participants.
You can blame Gom for not including past GSTL results to help determine the participating teams for the GSTL. I mean, that's just a no-brainer.
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
2 TIME?
I think he is reffereing to Code S January and GSL World Championship. How much people actually value GSL WC is debatable.
If people don't, they should. Even if you ignore the foreigners, the field was pretty stacked. I mean just some nubs like MC, July, Nestea, MKP, Nada, Anypro. MvP got demoted by a fluke and he was the only "code-A" korean in the tournament, the rest were Code-S.
Yeah I agree, it is legit. It definately was not an easy tourney, but you will always find those who say otherwise.
On May 11 2011 03:49 Devolved wrote: You can blame Gom for not including past GSTL results to help determine the participating teams for the GSTL. I mean, that's just a no-brainer.
They used the same criteria to determine March's GSTL. Nobody complained because every team they wanted was in. Now that IM isn't in people are all in a fuss.
On May 10 2011 14:13 trikshun wrote: Why wouldn't IM or Slayers get automatic qualification for finishing top 2. MVP could probably all kill MVP with ease...
I love you
But seriously MVP could and I don't care about the system that they use if they exclude what's on its worst day maybe the third best team in the GSL then the team league will be a joke.
On May 11 2011 03:49 Devolved wrote: You can blame Gom for not including past GSTL results to help determine the participating teams for the GSTL. I mean, that's just a no-brainer.
They used the same criteria to determine March's GSTL. Nobody complained because every team they wanted was in. Now that IM isn't in people are all in a fuss.
Didn't they give IM and ST points for their results in the first GSTL for the second one? Or am I remembering wrong?
On May 11 2011 03:58 Fawkes wrote: Slayers looks like they might have an easy time to the finals again!
Again..? They won last time, but getting there was not easy. Lol. oGs, then Startale, then IM. They had it harder than ANY other team, they definitely deserved that win.
On May 11 2011 03:59 Dissonance23 wrote: Not even going to bother watching without IM in it. Honestly, points from past GSTLs should be awarded based on season.
Overreacting much lol? Theres plenty of good teams and players even without IM. Though IM instead of fOu would make the top bracket more interesting on paper.
On May 11 2011 03:58 Fawkes wrote: Slayers looks like they might have an easy time to the finals again!
Again..? They won last time, but getting there was not easy. Lol. oGs, then Startale, then IM. They had it harder than ANY other team, they definitely deserved that win.
I think he meant, that they have a good chance of going to the finals once again. He wasn't commenting on the difficulty of winning the last GSTL. Just that they the have an easy path this time around. As they should being the reigning seeded champions.
On May 11 2011 03:59 Dissonance23 wrote: Not even going to bother watching without IM in it. Honestly, points from past GSTLs should be awarded based on season.
Lets not overreact here. GSTL will still be more awesome than most other tourneys.
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
I find it hilarious you're calling a 2 time GSL champion a "nab"
2 TIME?
I think he is reffereing to Code S January and GSL World Championship. How much people actually value GSL WC is debatable.
If people don't, they should. Even if you ignore the foreigners, the field was pretty stacked. I mean just some nubs like MC, July, Nestea, MKP, Nada, Anypro. MvP got demoted by a fluke and he was the only "code-A" korean in the tournament, the rest were Code-S.
Yeah I agree, it is legit. It definately was not an easy tourney, but you will always find those who say otherwise.
I really like IM, but props to GOM for sticking with their guns - it's the right thing to do.
A basketball analogy would be, would you let the Lakers/Celtics/Knicks play in the playoffs even if they're not in the top 8 of their conference?
You can argue that IM is one of the best teams, I would agree, but there's no definitive metric to prove that. As well, past performance isn't indicative of future performance (sure, Nestea and MVP are past GSL winners, but so is FruitDealer - one's performance at any time can fluctuate quite significantly). The only metric available is the one GOM set out - # of Code A/S players. Sure, it is flawed, but it is the methodology they are using.
Maybe GOM needs to revise its scoring method, but personally I think it's okay - based on results IM will be in next time and can dominate once again =)
I feel bad for IM not getting selected but its nice to see the GSL having a system and just sticking with it. Not arbitrarily booting fOu just to let IM in.
On May 11 2011 03:59 Dissonance23 wrote: Not even going to bother watching without IM in it. Honestly, points from past GSTLs should be awarded based on season.
I agree, its not Nearly as exciting without IM in it for me. They were the only team that showed confidence in their Zerg players. Not to mention i think, Nestea and Losira are the top 2 Zergs in the world.
Im surprised they would hold GSTL before Code A qualifiers, because Technically Fou doesn't have Choya or Leenock in code A currently. Meaning their rating is inflated, or rather ambiguous.
I hope Min, Yughio, Revival, Coca, Kyrix, Zenio, FruitDealer, Violet and DRG get sufficient playing time. If not its gonna be such a TvP TvT or PvP fest.
On May 11 2011 02:59 Ciel wrote: I dont like IMMvp anyway so I glad I see him less but its unfortunate that top zergs like Losira and Nestea lost their chances to play cuz of him. whatanab
Yes so unfortunate. Except the last time Nestea played Mvp, he got his ass kicked 3-1. But please continue your lecture about why it's all mvp's fault.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
You nailed it. I whole heartedly agree with you; 100%. I support GOMtv completely disregarding their previous tournament placements to rank a team, as that would be clearly the most illogical thing one could think of.
People act as if Losira, MVP and Nestea are the only players in IM who can play. Guys like Seed, Yonghwa and Yoda are incredibly talented players as we've seen in previous team leagues, as well as Nestea giving shoutouts to them in his interviews as being practice partners and brainstorming builds together. IM had 3 players eliminated in the last round of the code A qualifiers, they were simply unlucky. IM is a strong team with more depth than people are giving them credit for. Hopefully Genius and Keen have some epic ceremonies to make up for the lack of IM in the league.
On May 11 2011 03:59 Dissonance23 wrote: Not even going to bother watching without IM in it. Honestly, points from past GSTLs should be awarded based on season.
Overreacting much lol? Theres plenty of good teams and players even without IM. Though IM instead of fOu would make the top bracket more interesting on paper.
It's my NesTea and Losira fanboyism And the IM team in whole I guess.
On May 10 2011 14:14 BuffaloSoljah wrote: honastly if they tallied up the totals AFTER the up and down matches this would not have been a problem as MVP would most likely been in code S but excluding IM is not goms fault but MVPs fault for losing three series inna row and falling to code A he was the difference maker in the last GSTL that gave them their spot and in this one in losing their spot
Nail on the head. IM only got in because their superstars were ALL in Code S (except losira who was still in code a/unqualified[?]). Since MVP wasn't in Code S, and couldn't get them that .5 points they needed, they missed out.
I'd call it a wake-up call for Coach Lee. Gotta remember that you need a well rounded team, not just two or three monster players.
On May 11 2011 03:49 Devolved wrote: You can blame Gom for not including past GSTL results to help determine the participating teams for the GSTL. I mean, that's just a no-brainer.
They used the same criteria to determine March's GSTL. Nobody complained because every team they wanted was in. Now that IM isn't in people are all in a fuss.
The criteria was still unfair, it's only that by chance no 'good' team was left out before. Now that IM isn't going people took interest in why that and found that the current system is ridiculous and are complaining about it.
Really excited for Bel'shir Beach. It's an amazing departure from all those gothic monochromatic shakuras and abandoned space station maps. Hoping for some great games on it in the team league so that it shows up on the ladder like Tal'darim. Especially if it replaces Slag Pits.
On May 10 2011 14:14 BuffaloSoljah wrote: honastly if they tallied up the totals AFTER the up and down matches this would not have been a problem as MVP would most likely been in code S but excluding IM is not goms fault but MVPs fault for losing three series inna row and falling to code A he was the difference maker in the last GSTL that gave them their spot and in this one in losing their spot
Nail on the head. IM only got in because their superstars were ALL in Code S (except losira who was still in code a/unqualified[?]). Since MVP wasn't in Code S, and couldn't get them that .5 points they needed, they missed out.
I'd call it a wake-up call for Coach Lee. Gotta remember that you need a well rounded team, not just two or three monster players.
Jesus. THEY HAVE a well rounded team.
They have AMAZING players in Yonghwa, Seed, Yoda, etc. They were knocked out of the qualifiers by even better players, and most of them got fairly unlucky brackets. If GOM had simply waited until after hte up and down matches to decide, we wouldn't even be having this thread right now.
On May 11 2011 04:31 Chronald wrote: I'd call it a wake-up call for Coach Lee. Gotta remember that you need a well rounded team, not just two or three monster players.
Right now, before the up and down matches, IM have two players in Code S and two players in Code A. fOu by comparison have one player in Code S and zero players in Code A. Most likely, MVP will join Nestea and Losira in Code S for next season. The players in Code B for IM include Seed and Yonghwa, who have both set the GSTL alight. So when you say Coach Lee needs to 'wake-up', and that IM don't have a well rounded team, you're really talking out of your ass on just about every level.
First, the decision to eliminate IM was brutal, yet fair. The rules have been in place since GSTL was announced back in January. Changing the rules just to accomodate a fan favorite into the league? That kind of shit has no place in any sport around the world, and E-sports should not be any different.
The rules are bullshit? That's a whole another story. There are many different opinions about it, mine is that it's very close to good, not perfect. HOWEVER, what's done is done for this season and MVP has rightfully earned it's spot on GSTL.
Second, for those people saying "I won't watch GSTL because IM is not in it". Fine, it won't make any difference because chances are you didn't watch the previous 2 either, for it's clear you have no idea what made GSTL1 and GSTL2 the single best viewing experience in SC2 up to now, bar none.
They were great because a completely unknown guy with a pokemon for a name all killed fOu in a jaw dropping performance. They were great because a scrub named Jjob almost pulled a reverse all-kill against ZENEX before falling short in the last game. They were great because it introduced to us three great protosses named Seed, Ace and Yonghwa that tore apart estabilished household names like Top, Clide and Kyrix. They were great because in GSTL1 finals showcased us only 3 code S players out of 10, and yet delivered all the drama and skill worthy of a finals series. They were great, my ignorant fellow SC2 fan, because a team named Slayers came out of fucking nowhere and stomped on the three tournament favorites all the way to the title.
Do you see the common theme here? Surprise surprise, it's all about new, unknown talent that worked hard for a chance to shine and managed to pull it off. And yet you whiners say this GSTL is doomed to failure because we won't have a famous team participating? Shame on you.
I will be rooting for the new team on the block, the new guys from old teams, and above all for great SC2 games. You don't wanna watch, your loss dude.
On May 10 2011 14:14 BuffaloSoljah wrote: honastly if they tallied up the totals AFTER the up and down matches this would not have been a problem as MVP would most likely been in code S but excluding IM is not goms fault but MVPs fault for losing three series inna row and falling to code A he was the difference maker in the last GSTL that gave them their spot and in this one in losing their spot
Nail on the head. IM only got in because their superstars were ALL in Code S (except losira who was still in code a/unqualified[?]). Since MVP wasn't in Code S, and couldn't get them that .5 points they needed, they missed out.
I'd call it a wake-up call for Coach Lee. Gotta remember that you need a well rounded team, not just two or three monster players.
Jesus. THEY HAVE a well rounded team.
They have AMAZING players in Yonghwa, Seed, Yoda, etc. They were knocked out of the qualifiers by even better players, and most of them got fairly unlucky brackets. If GOM had simply waited until after hte up and down matches to decide, we wouldn't even be having this thread right now.
We would have had exactly the same thread 2 months ago. Since IM would then fail to qualify for GSTL March....
Lets face it IM had been walking on the tightrope for a long time and they did little to help themselves.
oGs have 8 players in code s? Might as well rename the league to oGsL.
Kinda like the look of the new map. It reminds me what I was working on back in beta, where I tried to make a map look good with shallow water you could walk on..I failed.
The layout of the map reminds me of Match Point..Which is my favorite map from BW, so I guess its all good
First of all, I think GOM should keep the tournament as it is. Changing the rules after an unfavorable outcome is dirty and unfair. Although this has shown some qualities about the rules that are not optimal for the GSTL.
For example, the GSTL is not about how many good players you have, it's about how good your best players are. Of course it helps that you have a wide, all-rounded team. But it's even better when you have a few (in IM's case, 3) insane players that you can count on to all-kill a team. The qualifications criteria doesn't match the competition criteria. This has to change.
The GSTL is a tournament for teams to showcase their new players, but at the same time, a tournament to award the title of "best team". If IM is not the best team (IN A COMPETITION IN THIS FORMAT), they are certainly in the top 3 (if anyone wants to argue, I refer you to the previous GSL seasons).
So yeah. GOM should keep this tournament as it is, and change the criteria for qualification to more closely match the criteria for success.
My first concern with the new map was the water and how creep would affect it. I played out about 10 practice games with my buddy
I can say with confidence that this map is awesome. The one thing that throws me off is the lack of x'el naga towers, and the backdoor entrance into the third. However, I kind of like both of these elements. I think this map will become a welcome addition to the growing pool.
On May 11 2011 05:08 Durn wrote: My first concern with the new map was the water and how creep would affect it. I played out about 10 practice games with my buddy
I can say with confidence that this map is awesome. The one thing that throws me off is the lack of x'el naga towers, and the backdoor entrance into the third. However, I kind of like both of these elements. I think this map will become a welcome addition to the growing pool.
Oh, I think everyone agrees that Gom has to stick to their guns and not bend the rules right now just for IM's sake. But for the benefit of the competition, in the future, seeding and team performances need to be looked at. If only there were 16 pro SC2 teams in Korea, then there would be a far more elegant solution.
On May 11 2011 05:06 NineKOne wrote: For example, the GSTL is not about how many good players you have, it's about how good your best players are. Of course it helps that you have a wide, all-rounded team. But it's even better when you have a few (in IM's case, 3) insane players that you can count on to all-kill a team. The qualifications criteria doesn't match the competition criteria. This has to change.
Oh god that is so well put and echoes my sentiments exactly. oGs may have a ton of players in Code A/S, but they've also been knocked out of the first round in each team league. Their individual players strength isn't that impressive(aside from MC) when compared to IM.
Ugh, I'm interested in learning more about how this new map will be for Zerg.
Not being able to spread creep across the map sucks. And the space and high ground behind the mains will make it's easier to defend muta harrass, as well as provide space for drop.
Can any one that actually, you know, good at Zerg (and not crappy like me) test these out?
GSTL without IM is just not the same. I realize GOMtv has rules, but that is pretty messed up. Perhaps they wait until the Up&Down matches are done before doing the calculations that way MVP gets into Code S? It's really sad to see a great team like IM get excluded when a team like fOu, who has arguably only two good players, qualifies to play.
there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
merit baby, how many people you got in your team that showed results, not who had the two guys that went to the finals together. there is a place in the world for things based on arbitrary factors and talent, but a sports tourney isn't it.
the fact that this is being brought up as an issue irritates me gravely tbh.
do you want esports to get somewhere so that your kids will watch game X or Y on tv alongside tennis or football with no nerd stigma to their name ? stop being such spoiled brats and let everyone compete on equal footing, even if that means your favorite player won't be participating in a couple events.
hell, the minimal requirements are very lax as it is, so work harder. and fuck "omg they had bad luck with tough opponents" wait what where in the real world is this a valid argument for anything - you got owned, ye, others may have had an easier time, like that rich kid you knew that never gave a fuck, but that entitles you to exactly jack squat. breeding this kind of attitude for short-term personal satisfaction is bad for the future of esports, and for you the complainer implicitly.
it's bad enough that we're barely scratching the surface with this esports thing after so many years that even major tournaments need to be based mainly on arbitrary invites so that they can be sustainable.
more of the "hey look i think this might be a problem to the integrity of the competition because X..and i think if you take the example of Y, plus with my idea Z, thing will be better and more balanced" kind of arguments,
less of the "fuck that i'm not even gonna watch this now that this happened, so change your shit rules so i can see X" bullcrap,
On May 11 2011 05:19 anatem wrote: there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
On May 11 2011 05:16 Defacer wrote: Ugh, I'm interested in learning more about how this new map will be for Zerg.
Not being able to spread creep across the map sucks. And the space and high ground behind the mains will make it's easier to defend muta harrass, as well as provide space for drop.
Can any one that actually, you know, good at Zerg (and not crappy like me) test these out?
No one ever said you couldn't spread creep on water, right?
Think map creator said that you could in the official map thread.
I thought being in the final in the last team league was worth a few points as well (like 2 for 2nd place and 4 for the winner)? At least it seemed to be the case when the rankings was shown at the last team league. Oh well, sucks that we won't be seeing the IM team, especially with the state fOu (minus sC) is in right now. Hope they pull off a "SlayerS" and surprise us all.
On May 11 2011 05:19 anatem wrote: there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
please.
how about waiting until after the up/down matches to do the calculations? if you took the final results instead, fOu has ONE player in all of GSL: sCfOu...that's just messed up.
Honestly reguardless of what the rules are it's insane that the gstl1 winner and gstl2 semi-finalist is being pushed out of the tournament for fOu, a perrenial 1st round loser.
For example, the GSTL is not about how many good players you have, it's about how good your best players are. Of course it helps that you have a wide, all-rounded team. But it's even better when you have a few (in IM's case, 3) insane players that you can count on to all-kill a team. The qualifications criteria doesn't match the competition criteria. This has to change.
I don't agree. Just because the competition criteria rewards those with "quality over quantity", it doesn't mean the GSTL is all about that. Like many people have said before, it is a nice way to reward both quantity and quality; the qualification criteria reward the bigger teams while the competition criteria reward the teams with better players, which still results in the awesome "All-Kill" format that GSTL currently has.
On May 11 2011 05:16 Defacer wrote: Ugh, I'm interested in learning more about how this new map will be for Zerg.
Not being able to spread creep across the map sucks. And the space and high ground behind the mains will make it's easier to defend muta harrass, as well as provide space for drop.
Can any one that actually, you know, good at Zerg (and not crappy like me) test these out?
No one ever said you couldn't spread creep on water, right?
Think map creator said that you could in the official map thread.
I tested it, and the creep spreads on the ground, which is right below the water so it looks kind of strange but functions the same.
On May 11 2011 05:19 anatem wrote: there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
please.
how about waiting until after the up/down matches to do the calculations? if you took the final results instead, fOu has ONE player in all of GSL: sCfOu...that's just messed up.
Because then they'll have to cut out 16 players that lost in Code A ro32
On May 11 2011 05:06 NineKOne wrote: For example, the GSTL is not about how many good players you have, it's about how good your best players are. Of course it helps that you have a wide, all-rounded team. But it's even better when you have a few (in IM's case, 3) insane players that you can count on to all-kill a team. The qualifications criteria doesn't match the competition criteria. This has to change.
Oh god that is so well put and echoes my sentiments exactly. oGs may have a ton of players in Code A/S, but they've also been knocked out of the first round in each team league. Their individual players strength isn't that impressive(aside from MC) when compared to IM.
Have you seen who oGs lost to? GSTL1 they lost to ST, the runner ups. In GSTL2 they lost to Slayers, the eventual champion.
On May 11 2011 05:37 Anzekay wrote: I'm sort of surprised they didn't use the Code A/S player numbers after the up and down matches this week.
We may end up with teams having different stats, during the GSTL, than they did when GOM decided on the teams for the league.
Ah well, this seems to be how they do it.
If they used the code A/S players numbers after up and down matches IM would be only GSTL1 winner and not GSTL2 runner up cause it wouldnt make top 8 then ;P.
IM was a ticking bomb when it comes to GSTL which finally exploded. Hopefully coach Lee will finaly think about expanding the rooster.
On May 11 2011 05:19 anatem wrote: there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
Qualification matches?
that would make the team league into a very large tournament because you would need quite a pretty high amount of matches to have a barely large enough sample of the team's abilities to warrant you get the best teams in, and even then there may be things to be argued. and you couldn't play it in the all-kill format because that would not be indicative of the team's overall skill, and you couldn't play bo1's because that would provide too small a smaple of people's skills. and it wouldn;t be reasonable to do that when you can have 8 teams in the league when there's like 10 teams proper in the whole of S. Korea that have their sights on spots int he GSL
you get all these prelims through the qualification tournaments for code A, and then through the code A which is a higher level qualification tournament in itself to get into the GSL proper which is code S.
so while i agree it would be a close alternative, it would be too much of a logistic hassle and expense for a likely minimal difference in the quality and balance of the selection process, thus making it pretty redundant, and overcomplicated.
though i must admit, thinking on it more thoroughly, the current format does indeed grant a slight advantage to the older teams who have been at it longer, having time to get enough people into code S above arguably better more talented players of newer teams or teams with fresh talent -say Prime vs. IM. however, that leads us to arbitrary factors for one, and second, experience has shown us that the likes of slayers can come out of nowehere and own, while one of the oldest teams can come just short.
this slight imbalance can be easily fixed though, by means of changing the points earned differential for code S and code A perhaps, and other things. but even this i don't think is relevant, since the multi-level system of the GSL code system filters out the weaker players for the most part -granted, there are things to be tweaked here too-, so while you can have a team like IM fall down this season, you're sure to have it in the league next time.
bla-bla getting tired of myself writing this, i could keep going on with an essay-long analysis of the entire GSL system, but i guess i made the simple straight-up point i had to make in my earlier post
On May 10 2011 14:10 Belisarius wrote: Also, totally ignoring the IM thing because it's pretty obviously retarded; what the heck is up with the brackets? oGs (1st) plays ST (4th) in the first round. Seriously, guys, seeds. Seeds are good. At least SlayerS is on the other side of the bracket.
They randomize them because you could end up having the same bracket over and over.
Its based of the point system which is flawed. The first seed is the previous championship team and the the rest of the seeds is based on quantity of players in the GSL. That's why Ogs is always the second seed yet have never won a series in the GSTL.
Completely unrelated to what I was responding to, but ok
seeing as he said "oGs (1st)" he obviously meant seeding based off of points.
Aaand oGs is 1st Seed, and that's not why they have never won a series. They've never won a series because they lose them.
On May 11 2011 01:57 ReaperX wrote: I feel so bad about IM not being able to play... Although I respect GOM, they should do something like total the player's GSL points in total
so one gsl champion player can carry a whole team?
They have a 2-time champion, a code A champion, and a soon-to-be 2-time champion.
I think oGs is an extremely strong team, they just might not make the best decisions always. For examples, NaDa who I would say is one of there strongest players has never gotten a chance to play in either GSTL, and also they lost 3-4 to SlayerS last time after they basically let Ryung have a free second kill by putting the weak vsT SuperNova to face the vT sniper Ryung.
Clearly the formula for calculating who qualifies for GSTL is useless. IM may be the strongest team on the planet, with arguably the best Terran, and the 2 best Zergs. The omission is so inexplicable, any discussion regarding the GSTL will start with the team who isn't there, instead of those who are.
Cheers to GOM for sticking to their rules even when there IM did not qualify instead of bending the rules to allow IM to play. This way it will motivate other teams to do better and keep teams that are already at the top to perform their best in order to stay in the team league. Sucks that liquid only has like 3 players(I think?) in korea.
I'd put ST as favorite to win it all. Them and SlayerS (who seem to approach the team league most seriously out of all teams) could easily make it to the finals, but I'm not sure if SlayerS can do two in a row. On the other hand, I'm pretty disillusioned with oGs these days, plus their player selection logic last time was ridiculous.
But still, SlayerS T1 fighting. xD
PS. On the whole IM issue, on one hand I dislike them a lot and I'm pretty happy that they didn't sneak in through the back door and that the rules didn't bend for them, but on the other hand they would definitely add to the quality of the league. Also, a rivalry between them and SlayerS could be interesting if it developed.
Wow this sucks! You'd think they'd give teams extra points for previous GSTL standings, especially since ya know, IM won one GSTL and made into the finals in the other....
Wouldn't be bad if the 4 last teams would've been directly in kind of loser bracket, so losers of round 1 meet them ... would've been much longer tho =) And liquid with only 3 players )
On May 11 2011 05:19 anatem wrote: there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
Qualification matches?
that would make the team league into a very large tournament because you would need quite a pretty high amount of matches to have a barely large enough sample of the team's abilities to warrant you get the best teams in, and even then there may be things to be argued. and you couldn't play it in the all-kill format because that would not be indicative of the team's overall skill, and you couldn't play bo1's because that would provide too small a smaple of people's skills. and it wouldn;t be reasonable to do that when you can have 8 teams in the league when there's like 10 teams proper in the whole of S. Korea that have their sights on spots int he GSL
you get all these prelims through the qualification tournaments for code A, and then through the code A which is a higher level qualification tournament in itself to get into the GSL proper which is code S.
so while i agree it would be a close alternative, it would be too much of a logistic hassle and expense for a likely minimal difference in the quality and balance of the selection process, thus making it pretty redundant, and overcomplicated.
though i must admit, thinking on it more thoroughly, the current format does indeed grant a slight advantage to the older teams who have been at it longer, having time to get enough people into code S above arguably better more talented players of newer teams or teams with fresh talent -say Prime vs. IM. however, that leads us to arbitrary factors for one, and second, experience has shown us that the likes of slayers can come out of nowehere and own, while one of the oldest teams can come just short.
this slight imbalance can be easily fixed though, by means of changing the points earned differential for code S and code A perhaps, and other things. but even this i don't think is relevant, since the multi-level system of the GSL code system filters out the weaker players for the most part -granted, there are things to be tweaked here too-, so while you can have a team like IM fall down this season, you're sure to have it in the league next time.
bla-bla getting tired of myself writing this, i could keep going on with an essay-long analysis of the entire GSL system, but i guess i made the simple straight-up point i had to make in my earlier post
Oh ok. Well you're wrong, partial individual rankings are in no way the clearest and best method of determining the top teams.
Liquid could have a nice shot of making it into this if they actually committed to Korea. If they have the sponsorship to keep the players there long term and give them some time to get it together, they should at least consider it. Being scattered around the globe thing isn't really working out for them. Korean scene will still end up being dominant in the end anyway.
the system has been implemented since the 1st GSTL, and when suddenly IM didnt qualify they cant just change the system, it wouldnt be fair to the other teams.
Really looking forward to GSTL, the drama, the BM, and really hoping for a Slayers vs oGs final
On May 11 2011 01:57 ReaperX wrote: I feel so bad about IM not being able to play... Although I respect GOM, they should do something like total the player's GSL points in total
so one gsl champion player can carry a whole team?
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
On May 11 2011 06:11 getty wrote: fuck yes, a beach map for summer!!
I hope it's a great map and blizzard adds it to the ladder pool.
This may be the reason why they choose this map And i think this is a wonderful idea
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
The rules were in place long ago and IM didn't meet the qualifications. That's all there is to it. GomTV should NOT let them in, no matter the public outcry. That's the entire point of having rules. and it's completely fair, those rules were decided upon before this tournament and well known to the entire team.
You can make a case that the rule itself is not fair, but this is the first time this situation has come up. Maybe GomTV needs to change the rule, but for now props to them for doing the right thing as an organization which is following the rules you put down.
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
I think the teamleague should somehow be a bit separate from the GSL individual leagues. The whole point of the teamleague is so we can get to see obscure but good players show off their skills. Slayers created a bunch of new stars who weren't even in code A or S at the time.
By requiring all the teams to have code S/A players to play in GSTL, we're missing out on the soon-to-be talents.
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
Absolutely. BackHo is the baddest motherfucker there ever was. Not even kidding or anything. Don't fuck with BackHo.
Also, Oz isn't good just because of Jaedong. They're either good because Killer/HiyA/PMan are winning games, or they're not good. Except in Winners League. But Winners League is all about letting Jaedong/Flash carry their teams anyway.
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
I don't mean right now but for a long time, there were not a lot of good player in oz exept Jeadong, why do you think we call oz : jeadong oz ?
Jaedong is not just a "good player" though. He's vastly superior to majority of the players he plays against, he's better than them even when he's slumping.
IM doesn't have anything like that. MVP and NesTea aren't Flash and Jaedong compared to players they play against. They're very much mortal, especially in a winners league format which is snipers' heaven.
Even in Oz Jaedong is supported by serious players even though they might not look so impressive by competitive standards. Other than LosirA, IM doesn't seem to have other serious players at all.
Have you ever watch the pro team in BW ? have you ever seen Oz who is pretty good in proleague only because the have 1 good player in there lineup. I don't see why it can't happen in sc2
Absolutely. BackHo is the baddest motherfucker there ever was. Not even kidding or anything. Don't fuck with BackHo.
Also, Oz isn't good just because of Jaedong. They're either good because Killer/HiyA/PMan are winning games, or they're not good. Except in Winners League. But Winners League is all about letting Jaedong/Flash carry their teams anyway.
Gotta love Hiya/Magikarp. He's a great Terran and a great person in general. His ceremonies sometimes put a smile on my face.
the way i see it, there's no fair system with choosing teams for the GSTL. it does not seem fair that IM as a team gets a seed just because of 3 people to other teams with more members. consequently, it's also unfair for IM that the "most successful team" in GSL can't qualify for the GSTL. maybe GOM should just do tournament bracket style for Ro8 GSTL.
It's sad to know that IM won't be included, but the rules are rules. They've been in place since the beginning and IM knows that. It's totally their own fault for not doing something about it.
On May 11 2011 05:19 anatem wrote: there is no clearer and more fair method of making the team league into a properly competitive tournament than what GOM is doing right now.
Qualification matches?
that would make the team league into a very large tournament because you would need quite a pretty high amount of matches to have a barely large enough sample of the team's abilities to warrant you get the best teams in, and even then there may be things to be argued. and you couldn't play it in the all-kill format because that would not be indicative of the team's overall skill, and you couldn't play bo1's because that would provide too small a smaple of people's skills. and it wouldn;t be reasonable to do that when you can have 8 teams in the league when there's like 10 teams proper in the whole of S. Korea that have their sights on spots int he GSL
you get all these prelims through the qualification tournaments for code A, and then through the code A which is a higher level qualification tournament in itself to get into the GSL proper which is code S.
so while i agree it would be a close alternative, it would be too much of a logistic hassle and expense for a likely minimal difference in the quality and balance of the selection process, thus making it pretty redundant, and overcomplicated.
though i must admit, thinking on it more thoroughly, the current format does indeed grant a slight advantage to the older teams who have been at it longer, having time to get enough people into code S above arguably better more talented players of newer teams or teams with fresh talent -say Prime vs. IM. however, that leads us to arbitrary factors for one, and second, experience has shown us that the likes of slayers can come out of nowehere and own, while one of the oldest teams can come just short.
this slight imbalance can be easily fixed though, by means of changing the points earned differential for code S and code A perhaps, and other things. but even this i don't think is relevant, since the multi-level system of the GSL code system filters out the weaker players for the most part -granted, there are things to be tweaked here too-, so while you can have a team like IM fall down this season, you're sure to have it in the league next time.
bla-bla getting tired of myself writing this, i could keep going on with an essay-long analysis of the entire GSL system, but i guess i made the simple straight-up point i had to make in my earlier post
Oh ok. Well you're wrong, partial individual rankings are in no way the clearest and best method of determining the top teams.
you're lacking the second part of this post, that is the counter or reinforcing argument of which is the better method of doing it, while addressing the self-criticism of my 'theory' which i included in my argument.
i don't see any method of determining the 'strongest team' without going to the cumulated results of the individual players of the team, because that would be based on arbitrary factors, you can't quantify how 'good' a player is, even if the vast majority of people agree X player is better than 'Y' player.
i may be missing some points to be raised or an entirely different approach to the subject right now, but the current method is most definitely the clearest by sheer simplicity and reduction of variables.
this implies the fact that the system isn't too refined, so it's not the best one could possibly work with. for an idea, you could create a complicated equation to calculate points for teams based on additional variables, such as how long a player stayed in that code, with substractions for each dropping to the code below or up/down matches, or set values for each round of each tournament as opposed the binary 1/1.6 point system, or to the extreme have diminishing returns for never passing code s ro16 after a set number of leagues, shit like that to take more of the ebbs and flows of the performance of a team into account and to acknowledge the highest achievers - but the underlying concept would [have to] be the same - results by indidividual rankings [to become the best method]
this on the quality of the gstl selection system, for other matters the bracket system is bad, the all-kill format is suspicious, and on the community's attitudes and argumentation, the points from the first post stand.
They have to choose teams objectively; if the objective system says that IM is not able to participate, what can they do? Letting IM participate at the expense of a team which their system decided to be more worthy would be hypocrisy.
The only thing wrong I see here is lack of seeding. It's really weird that the top-ranked team has a tougher opponent than the 2nd-ranked team. And I feel SlayerS should be seeded #1 since they were the champions of last season, but I guess that's just me.
The system is good imo, for the following reasons:
-It makes individual performance important for the whole team, which is a great thing. -It gives importance to coaches raising several good players, instead of relying on a single star, we all know it sucks when JD loses, and then it's insta loss for Jaedong-Oz -It encourages team aces to help their teammates in their GSL individual matches
All in all, this rule encourages teams being real teams, and growing together, which is healthier for the SC2 scene than having a few super Aces, particularly when the scene is so young.
On May 11 2011 07:38 mordk wrote: The system is good imo, for the following reasons:
-It makes individual performance important for the whole team, which is a great thing. -It gives importance to coaches raising several good players, instead of relying on a single star, we all know it sucks when JD loses, and then it's insta loss for Jaedong-Oz -It encourages team aces to help their teammates in their GSL individual matches
All in all, this rule encourages teams being real teams, and growing together, which is healthier for the SC2 scene than having a few super Aces, particularly when the scene is so young.
Wow. Every single part of this post is wrong. Placing emphasis on individual performance is not a great thing for a team league for obvious reasons. When coaches do raise a team of several good players like IM, evidently they can lose out on a place to a team full of terrible players like fOu. Teams will always practice for their individual GSL matches fervently in the appropriate match-ups regardless of the W10,000,000 side tournament. Nothing about this rule encourages teams to "be real teams" in any way shape or form. In fact, it places a very deliberate emphasis on Code S Aces.
Imagine a team with 3 Code S players and 0 Code A players. It would be 4.8. A team with 5 Code A players would be in whereas this team with 3 Code S players would be out. With the qualify system used in GSL, they should award more points for having more Code S, not simply an 1.6 multiplier.
Maybe they should just expand this league a little. We could see lotsa new faces that way. Only 8 teams is a bummer too.
On May 11 2011 08:01 AlecPyron wrote: Imagine a team with 3 Code S players and 0 Code A players. It would be 4.8. A team with 5 Code A players would be in whereas this team with 3 Code S players would be out. With the qualify system used in GSL, they should award more points for having more Code S, not simply an 1.6 multiplier.
Maybe they should just expand this league a little. We could see lotsa new faces that way. Only 8 teams is a bummer too.
the main problem there would be that there are only like 10-12 teams or something in the gsl of which liquid and FOX don't have enough players afaik
maybe after a few GSTLs they will change the qualification process, just as they did with the GSL as soon as things stabilized
News inc from Fomos Coach IMHirai of Incredible Miracle announced the immediate recruitment of three new players (pictured below) to help "improve the team's depth" and deal with "situations in which nonsensical GSL rules restrict us from playing in team leagues"
Bel'shir beach looks like a very beautiful map asthetically, is it balanced though? i hope so purely because of how pretty it looks, will be a pleasure to spectate games on it.
On May 10 2011 14:57 Subversion wrote: Well they're not in because they didn't deserve to be.
It's a team league, not a "lets hope Nestea/Losira/MVP can all-kill for us league". They're not amongst the top-performing teams in the GSL, so they were excluded.
Rules are rules, man. IM is my favourite team, but I totally understand.
It seems bizarre to say that a team that won the first team league and got to the finals of the second team league doesn't "deserve" to be in. I think GOMTV knows their own rules for deciding how each team qualifies for the team league are a little off when they say they're looking into solutions to what happened (although not changing anything for May, which is understandable)
What I'm saying is, the rules have been the same from the beginning. All the teams have always been aware of these rules. If you want to be in the GSTL, you need a lot of representation in the GSL. IM let themselves down by not making the cut in that regard.
I don't think they should get preferential treatment due to past performances.
On May 11 2011 08:26 Tachion wrote: News inc from Fomos Coach IMHirai of Incredible Miracle announced the immediate recruitment of three new players (pictured below) to help "improve the team's depth" and deal with "situations in which nonsensical GSL rules restrict us from playing in team leagues"
On May 11 2011 08:26 Tachion wrote: News inc from Fomos Coach IMHirai of Incredible Miracle announced the immediate recruitment of three new players (pictured below) to help "improve the team's depth" and deal with "situations in which nonsensical GSL rules restrict us from playing in team leagues"
I'll ignore this Teamleague, cause the best team won't participate. I don't want to offend Zenex or MVP, but these teams doesn't show interesting matchups like, IMMvp, NesTea, Losira, etc...
They can't just change the rules to make popular teams get carried through. IM knew they were hanging by a thread last GSTL (they were 8th on points going into it?) yet they didnt make efforts to poach players from other teams that are in Code A / Code S so they had the points to continue.
It is IM's own fault that they aren't in the team league, GOM is just sticking to the rules that were set at the start of the team leagues.
Looking forward to seeing team MVP play, Keen is a gun but the rest of their lineup I don't know too well. Really hoping to see some up and coming stars.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
Perhaps the fact that they won the first team league, made the finals of the only other team league, and had players in the finals of both Code A and Code S?
Don't even try to argue that IM doesn't deserve to be in the GSTL.
The problem I see with the 'formula' they're using is that participants of a team event are decided upon by results in an individual league. This is a methodological problem not only because it favors large teams (e.g. oGs), but because this way, every 'team kill' in said individual leagues inevitably lowers the chances of a team to participate.
On May 11 2011 09:09 ellirc wrote: Regardless of any rules, IM should be in there. WTF!
:lol exactly. Fuck the rules I just want to see my favourite players. Actually, what they should do for the individual GSL is put Jinro back into Code S and seed him directly into the finals, because I think he deserves it.
On May 11 2011 09:09 ellirc wrote: Regardless of any rules, IM should be in there. WTF!
:lol exactly. Fuck the rules I just want to see my favourite players. Actually, what they should do for the individual GSL is put Jinro back into Code S and seed him directly into the finals, because I think he deserves it.
Some people here are arguing the wrong point, no one is saying that GOM is wrong by sticking to the rules.
The problem is that the formula used is stupid, it makes no sense at all. This formula does not take into account quality, all it does is count quantity even if that quantity is code A ro32 dropouts.
According to the formula: 2 code A ro32 newbs >>> 1 code S GSL champion.
On May 11 2011 09:44 Highways wrote: Some people here are arguing the wrong point, no one is saying that GOM is wrong by sticking to the rules.
The problem is that the formula used is stupid, it makes no sense at all. This formula does not take into account quality, all it does is count quantity even if that quantity is code A ro32 dropouts.
According to the formula: 2 code A ro32 newbs >>> 1 code S GSL champion.
It would be uprising that if it does not change in the future, considering it says in the OP that they are looking at the situation.
But id rather them stick to their guns in this GSTL, even if that means IM has to sit it out.
One thing that has to be restated because it isn't said enough is that in spite IM not having enough players in code A and S it was their players in code B that carried half their wins.
Seed and Yonghua did it in season 1 for the first two days.
Losira was still an up and coming when he did it in season 2 on the first day.
The point system that exists is fine.
What should be considered is expanding the point system to include code B players because Tasteless revealed code B isn't accessible to everyone. You can only be in code B if you are in the top 200 (minus the current Code A and S players) Korean ladder.
On May 11 2011 09:09 ellirc wrote: Regardless of any rules, IM should be in there. WTF!
:lol exactly. Fuck the rules I just want to see my favourite players. Actually, what they should do for the individual GSL is put Jinro back into Code S and seed him directly into the finals, because I think he deserves it.
Regardless of any rules, you know.
And HasuObs! Right....?
Don't do that shit man.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with this non-sequitor?
You made a stupid statement (GOM should not adhere to the rules) and I called you out on it with obvious sarcasm. Pretty straightforward.
On May 10 2011 14:10 Belisarius wrote: Also, totally ignoring the IM thing because it's pretty obviously retarded; what the heck is up with the brackets? oGs (1st) plays ST (4th) in the first round. Seriously, guys, seeds. Seeds are good. At least SlayerS is on the other side of the bracket.
I dont think they seeded off the point system... I'm guessing it is from past GSTL placement? the points were purely choosing who would participate i think.
On May 11 2011 10:36 mutantmagnet wrote: One thing that has to be restated because it isn't said enough is that in spite IM not having enough players in code A and S it was their players in code B that carried half their wins.
Seed and Yonghua did it in season 1 for the first two days.
Losira was still an up and coming when he did it in season 2 on the first day.
The point system that exists is fine.
What should be considered is expanding the point system to include code B players because Tasteless revealed code B isn't accessible to everyone. You can only be in code B if you are in the top 200 (minus the current Code A and S players) Korean ladder.
You do know that Code B was invented by Artosis and is a troll to fool people like you right? Code B does not exist its just tastosis' joke for getting knocked out of Code A.
It's sad that teams like fOu and ZeNEX are still in this where as a team as talented as IM is being excluded. I mean, it's not like Incredible Miracle currently makes up half of the GSL championships (and it will be more than half if/when NesTea beats InCa).
Regarding Bel'Shir I just want to say that I think that is a great addition to this game and I cannot wait to see it played on. I played a couple of games on it with my friend and I think it's a great map.
Idk why its not a rule that if you place in the top 2 of the last GSTL you dont get an auto invite. I mean IM basically has the most solid team all around. I mean really? MVP clan? They have like 2 good players and they are just good, nothing too exceptional. IM has 2 players that have won 2 GSLs Code S tournys and a Code A. Only 3 teams can even say they have a member who have won a GSL Code S in general. Those rules are ridiculous but maybe it will light some fire underneath those players on IM that havent made Code A yet to practice harder and maybe they will get lucky this next GSL round.
On May 11 2011 10:36 mutantmagnet wrote: One thing that has to be restated because it isn't said enough is that in spite IM not having enough players in code A and S it was their players in code B that carried half their wins.
Seed and Yonghua did it in season 1 for the first two days.
Losira was still an up and coming when he did it in season 2 on the first day.
The point system that exists is fine.
What should be considered is expanding the point system to include code B players because Tasteless revealed code B isn't accessible to everyone. You can only be in code B if you are in the top 200 (minus the current Code A and S players) Korean ladder.
You do know that Code B was invented by Artosis and is a troll to fool people like you right? Code B does not exist its just tastosis' joke for getting knocked out of Code A.
Where do you think the new players for Code A every season come from? They come from Code B, which is just a giant tournament to get the top X number of players into code A, and it's very cut throat
On May 11 2011 09:53 Sanguinarius wrote: Dude, no IM - thats just stupid. They are one of the best teams out there.
Maybe they need to expand the brackets...
Eh, it would be pretty difficult to expand the brackets considering that there aren't many other teams and that it would be difficult to create a conventional bracket system without doubling the total number of participating teams.
Considering that the GSTL takes place over a single week, creating a format to accommodate all teams would be pretty difficult. Proleague uses a round-robin format that occurs over the span of the majority of the year, which accommodates all 10 of the major Korean pro BW teams.
The GSTL's eight-team, three-round bracket worked splendidly back when there were only eight definitively dominant teams. With the rise of team MVP and possibly New Star HoSeo, this system is definitely in jeopardy of alienating great teams and great players. It's ironic that the rise of more SC2 teams has had the unfortunate effect of messing up the system for Korea's premier broadcasted SC2 team league.
Messing around with the points system would only be a short term solution. In the long term, I think the entire format for the team league should be revamped to accommodate more teams possibly over a longer period of time, similar to the Proleague system. Accommodating more teams with a longer-term broadcasted team league would do great things for the Korean SC2 scene.
On May 11 2011 10:36 mutantmagnet wrote: One thing that has to be restated because it isn't said enough is that in spite IM not having enough players in code A and S it was their players in code B that carried half their wins.
Seed and Yonghua did it in season 1 for the first two days.
Losira was still an up and coming when he did it in season 2 on the first day.
The point system that exists is fine.
What should be considered is expanding the point system to include code B players because Tasteless revealed code B isn't accessible to everyone. You can only be in code B if you are in the top 200 (minus the current Code A and S players) Korean ladder.
You do know that Code B was invented by Artosis and is a troll to fool people like you right? Code B does not exist its just tastosis' joke for getting knocked out of Code A.
Actually, Code B is the name for the pool of 172 Koreans eligible to attend the GSL qualifiers (it's based on the Korean ladder, foreigners are exempt).
they should take the top 4 point leaders for each team and rank teams by that; and if a team is tied, use the next person with highest points until the tie is broken.
On May 11 2011 11:11 eviltomahawk wrote: It's ironic that the rise of more SC2 teams has had the unfortunate effect of messing up the system for Korea's premier broadcasted SC2 team league.
Let's be objective here. GSTL is a side show for Gom. They give it minimal support and have shown minimal ambition in expanding it. The real prize for winning the GSTL isn't the pittance they call a prize pool but the sponsorship they can command for placing better in their league and showing off the depth of their talent pool.
I'm sort of hoping, with viewer competition from the western leagues, there is enough of a change in Gom's viewership spending habits that make them believe they have to create a better team league to increase their revenue.
Liquid needs to start recruiting new and better players, ones that can at least get to Code-A. Same with IM, not that the teams' players suck, its just that they have too little good players, but only a few exceptional players.
EDIT: uhhh, just noticed oGs and ST are in the same bracket for Round 1, damn it all
On May 11 2011 12:42 iTzAnglory wrote: Liquid needs to start recruiting new and better players, ones that can at least get to Code-A. Same with IM, not that the teams' players suck, its just that they have too little good players, but only a few exceptional players.
EDIT: uhhh, just noticed oGs and ST are in the same bracket for Round 1, damn it all
I'm pretty sure IM has a stacked team. its just that the whole getting into Code A from Code B is brutal and I know that there are hidden Code A/Code S players in all the teams but have not gotten the opportunity to qualify.
On May 11 2011 12:42 iTzAnglory wrote: Liquid needs to start recruiting new and better players, ones that can at least get to Code-A. Same with IM, not that the teams' players suck, its just that they have too little good players, but only a few exceptional players.
Liquid could probably do it if everyone they had was in Korea but right now they dominate the world xD
On May 11 2011 11:31 425kid wrote: Stop complaining about IM. We get to watch ZeNEX get all killed again!!
Byun and Kyrix just get no respect.
Don't think they're gonna make it out of the First round with SlayerS as their First opponent, But for sure they're gonna put up a Fight with Byun, Kyrix and CoCa.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
They've proven it by winning and getting to the finals both times in each GSTL? They did not factor that in and only counted Code S and Code A. That's why it's stupid.
So the team that wins the first season of GSTL, and then finishes second in the next season.. Doesn't qualify for the next season? I understand the need for using the same method to determine qualifiers but the Champions League rule change for Liverpool comes to mind; seems a bit ridiculous that IM cannot compete this season.
Oh well, the GSTL manages to produce insane games every season, some may say more so than the GSL - i am still excited!!
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
For Mvp or fOu or Zenex, their results are qualifying people... IM's results are 2 GSL's , 1 GSWC, 1 code A, 1 runner up code A, 1 finalist code S (this season, possibly 1 more gsl), 1 GSTL and 1 runner up GSTL.
Apparently having 10 mediocre players is better than having 3 tip top players now... on a 1v1 game...
It's ridiculous that the unquestionably best team, which has the most results BY FAR is out of the team tournament.
SWEET MAP totally looks wc3.. totally nostalgic i remember when Spirit_Moon played on all sorts of wonkey korean maps when WC3 was big too.. this is awesome!!!!!
A round of 16 would be detrimental to the GSTL. It would make it less of an elite tournament. Even though I believe IM is the most talented team in SC2, they simply didn't have enough points. Hopefully, this just makes teams try even harder for the next GSTL and not just expect to be invited. I see this as something IM will use as motivation.
No IM means that I won't be watching, kind of a joke by GOM. Top 2 (or perhaps 4) teams should just get invited, and the rest should be calculated after up and down matches.
It should also be calculated by the players top placing/most recent placing.
A ro16 code A player getting over half the points of a GSL champion is hilariously stupid.
On May 10 2011 14:13 bittman wrote: Don't bash it if you don't have a solution. What should GOM do, change the rules so MVP, an upcoming team, doesn't have a chance? If memory serves me right SlayerS were an upcoming team, look what the GSTL did for them.
Only things I could think of to make it work could be: 1) Ro16 - issue being, there aren't this many teams unless they expand to "Code B". 2) Provide variety to the points given based on results - That is: the grand finalists might earn a team 1.9 points, whilst a 4th place Code S group-er might only get 1.1 points for example. 3) A "points" limit which potentially gives lower point teams an extra round. Allows for a "Ro9/10/11/12" for example.
Either way, a solution should be engineered. They can't just hope on the promise that a few teams will control most of the points so its easy to make a Ro8 forever. Heck, if they want to get international players, they are guaranteeing more teams will take points here and there.
EDIT: 4) they could use the same points rankings used for the Super Tournament: pooling the points earned for each player as potential qualifying points for the team. The Super Tournament is not shy on players from different teams...
Or just you know, seed the previous finalists?
It was just as stupid when they almost didn't make it into GSTL 2 (they were the 8th seed) after winning GSTL 1. GOM should have realised at the time something like this might happen. How they are gonna get IM back in now I don't really know. It was easier as long as they were in it and performing consistently, then there was a case for just seeding them as a top team.
They could as you say use the player ranking points but then you could potentially have a team with MVP and none other at all and they would probably still be in the top 8. Even if they couldn't even field two players.
Btw, if MVP had retained his Code S spot they'd be above fOu
Edit: I'm sure they'll be in next time though. fOu has one player in Code S and that's it. So they need at least 5 players in Code A from the 16 spots in the open qualification to pass IM's 3 code S and 1 code A. And looking at fOu's line up that doesn't seem likely. And of course more IMs can still qualify as well.
On May 11 2011 15:19 bkrow wrote: So the team that wins the first season of GSTL, and then finishes second in the next season.. Doesn't qualify for the next season? I understand the need for using the same method to determine qualifiers but the Champions League rule change for Liverpool comes to mind; seems a bit ridiculous that IM cannot compete this season.
Oh well, the GSTL manages to produce insane games every season, some may say more so than the GSL - i am still excited!!
For the Liverpool rule change to actually have a resemblance here, well then IM had to have won last season, something they didn't.
no tears for IM, that house needs to get its act together and bring in some fresh blood. this is GSL _team_ league, and mvp are obviously more deserving _team_ of players
Personally I've always felt IM is vastly overrated anyways outside of MVP and Nestea, I'm actually glad they're not in this season so we get to see what the MVP team is made of (hoping to see DRG get some playtime).
I don't really understand how people can whine about this now when the rules for the GSTL have literally been posted online since like December. Get over yourselves, it's still going to be a blast to watch with or without IM.
On May 11 2011 22:32 MegaManEXE wrote: Personally I've always felt IM is vastly overrated anyways outside of MVP and Nestea, I'm actually glad they're not in this season so we get to see what the MVP team is made of (hoping to see DRG get some playtime).
I don't really understand how people can whine about this now when the rules for the GSTL have literally been posted online since like December. Get over yourselves, it's still going to be a blast to watch with or without IM.
oh yeah Losira, Seed and YongHwa are so bad ....
I was too lazy to read through the 30+ pages but seriously GOM, how on earth a guy geting knocked out in Ro32 and th guy winning the thing can have the same value in points?
GSTL without IM just sucks and I'm pretty sure the ticket sales/number of viewers will drop consequently
i think its good that gsl didnt include IM. staying at the same system is surely no bias and id think IM had to know about this. so theyre at fault, they couldve just signed ANY code a player and made it in.
not having IM the last finalist and before that the champion in the GSTL just doesnt seem right i understand the point system they have but still it just seems wrong they are not in the GSTL
Personally I've always felt IM is vastly overrated anyways outside of MVP and Nestea, I'm actually glad they're not in this season so we get to see what the MVP team is made of (hoping to see DRG get some playtime).
A team needs 4 (5 for the final) and IM already has 3 awesome players and 2,3 solid backups. Dont tell me that the lineup of Genius-DRG-Keen-Violet can have any chance against mvp-Nestea-Losira. IM is unarguably a strong TEAM
Sure rule is rule but GSL may consider to change it. How about getting the sum of individual players' point based on GSL ranking ? Team with two champs ( aka 15K pts) wont ever miss the cut for a team with one ok terran and 4 code A dropouts lol
It's team league... If IM are worth it for it they should have more players in GSL S/A They have 2 S 2 A Solution is to make the S coeficient a bit higher like 1,8 but still it would not give IM more points than fOu. If IM want spot they should reqruit more players that are capable of qualifing for S/A
Really, really disappointing that we won't get to see arguably the best team with two of the top three players in the world but it's not the GSL's fault. Ah well, should still be fantastic.
New map looks. . .interesting.
On May 11 2011 22:32 MegaManEXE wrote: Personally I've always felt IM is vastly overrated anyways outside of MVP and Nestea
Yeah, totally overrated. I mean, they've only won one team league and come second in the other. Maybe if they'd won both I'd have respect for them.
Wow, that's really really unfortunate for IM, but I think also for the Spectators and the GSTL itself, cuz IM is such a high-level Team with extremely talented, well-known and fun to watch players...
I mean: Without LosirA and Nestea, there is pretty much only 1 Top-Zerg left with July and without MVP, the best Terran is missing as well. IM also had some very talented Protoss like YoungHwa, that didn't really had the best Results in GSL, but where very nice to watch nonetheless...
I guess GSTL has to be fair and stuff, but not inviting IM is just stupid. If I was the GSTL, I'd rather invite some other Teams or make some sort of group-phase or anything that might work, cuz with IM not there, the league looses a lot of prestige...
I guess GOM had to nerf IM or else the GSTL would be one sided. New rule: Two consecutive finalist teams can't run for a third time. Also, if you want to talk about overrated teams, try picking on oGs. I don't know if its their coach's lineup arrangement or if the players just aren't performing, but having the most qualified players in GSL yet failing to even reach the semifinals is very off. If mvp and NesTea carries IM in GSTL, who carries oGs? And oGs is ranked first with this new point system.
I like the idea of cycling in new teams, but do not agree with sacrificing quality for that. IM deserves to be in the GSTL based on their track record, but it seems we'll have to watch one without them nerdstomping everyone. Besides that, I'm hoping MVP will have a good run and we get some action from OGS and TSL
On May 10 2011 14:09 stangstang wrote: it puts more emphasis on the team and less on a single or couple players carrying the team.
The thing is YongHwa is one of the best korean players and just because he's not in Cod A he doesn't count . The teams who make it to the final should deffinetly have a spot next season the best team in the last two leagues by far barley losing last year because MMA is amazing.
Well now I have no interest in the team league really I guess I wouldn't mind Startale or Slayers owning it up again though they have some really awesome players.
On May 12 2011 03:05 slytown wrote: Cool map. Now they just need to make a GSL winter map.
is it just me or did anyone else just get a flashback to Tod's 'Twisted Meadows is a cool map' from this :O
EDIT: I think its pretty fair.
The rules were decided and not a lot of people complained back then.
everyone should have known what the stakes were. (Although I do feel like they should consider how far a player gets in GSL, just an improvement to the current system. If they take past GSTL records into account, the teams that weren't able to join earlier would have a huge disadvantage.)
maybe the Prime coach can stop making bad decisions this time and actually use anypro/HongUn(don't put all the pressure on MarineKing) so they don't get eliminated first round -_-
Considering fou has exactly 1 player in the GSL (sC), and Zenex pretty much only has Byun/Kyrix holding them up (despite the fact that they're pretty consistently in the up/down matches), I'm really sad to see that IM isn't in the team league just because of this arbitrary rule. The team league points should be separate from the individual league.
Wait if IMMVP is now code S doesn't that make it IM (3,1) instead of (2,2)? If it's (3,1) then it adds up to 5.8, making them eligible to compete in this GSTL.
On May 12 2011 05:26 MetalLobster wrote: Wait if IMMVP is now code S doesn't that make it IM (3,1) instead of (2,2)? If it's (3,1) then it adds up to 5.8, making them eligible to compete in this GSTL.
But that's not the way they do it. They calculate the scores before up and downs, not after... So far nobody complained about that.
On May 12 2011 05:26 MetalLobster wrote: Wait if IMMVP is now code S doesn't that make it IM (3,1) instead of (2,2)? If it's (3,1) then it adds up to 5.8, making them eligible to compete in this GSTL.
But that's not the way they do it. They calculate the scores before up and downs, not after... So far nobody complained about that.
Its pretty disappointing. I think maybe teams should be seeded based on where their players finished (obviously that wouldn't have helped IM this season with a lot of their players in code A) but it would help in the future, since IM probably has the most top 8 players in the world on the team (except maybe oGs).
The other thing is that, from what I recall, the IM roster is significantly smaller than some teams, like oGs. Another and probably better, option is to cap the number of players counted when working out the top teams, currently the system favours teams with larger rosters. oGs have 8 code S players. That's so many some of them probably won't play more than 1 game throughout the whole tournament. If they capped the number counted by the scoring system that would be fairer. Obviously oGs deserve to be in the league, but imagine a theoretical team with 9 code A players who were all eliminated in the first round, they would qualify, but most likely be beaten by almost all of the teams that wouldn't get in
My ideas might not help out IM this season, but I think they would overall improve the way teams are chosen. Also GOM should let the liquid guys play for the oGs team, they already share clothes and a house, and some of the liquid guys are definitely in the top tier of players in the house.
New map looks interesting. Natural looks like a pain and drops/brute force will be important depending on whether expanding to the gold or regular third.
Is the middle ground underwater stuff buildable terrain? I don't remember. Would seem a little difficult for protoss and zerg.
I wonder what the atmosphere in SlayerS is like right now. They got 7 people into Code A, and not one of them made it up to Code S. Might hurt their teams/players morale and end up playing poorly in the GSTL.
Thank you GOM for sticking to the rules you made, rather than changing them after the fact. Perhaps these rules should be revised for future team leagues, but now is NOT the time to do that.
Will be watching, the team leagues never fail to be awesome.
On May 12 2011 07:41 iTzAnglory wrote: Though IM is not even a good team, I definitely agree that GSTL should seed the finalist teams into the round of 8, if not Semifinals.
So the team that has won three (could be 4 by the time this happens) GSLs, the first GSTL and got second in the last GSTL isn't a good team?
On May 12 2011 07:41 iTzAnglory wrote: Though IM is not even a good team, I definitely agree that GSTL should seed the finalist teams into the round of 8, if not Semifinals.
So the team that has won three (could be 4 by the time this happens) GSLs, the first GSTL and got second in the last GSTL isn't a good team?
It might be circular reasoning, but the fact remains that that members of team IM did not manage to get more points than Zenex and Fou.
But seriously, as the format of the GSTL mostly favours individual quality over team depth, there's a good argument to be had for IM not being a good team. Emphasis on team depth, I suppose.
Personally, I think they're a good team, really good. Certainly better than some of those who qualified for this GSTL. But you know, if you don't make it through the qualifiers, if the performance in the qualifiers (in this case the latest individual GSL tournament) isn't enough to get you Top 8, you have no right to participate no matter your (perceived or real) quality.
I think Socke is better than Zeerax, but he didn't get enough points in the qualifying tournaments and didn't make it into the TSL3. And that's fine. That's the way competitions work.
Rules were known before hand. If they were changed to let IM in, then we should (and would) be raging about how they just screwed team MVP out of a spot for more "star power".
MVP deserves this spot. They just formed and had like 583902358928 people qualify for Code A on their first go as part of the team. They all did well and some were promoted to Code S. They have more players in Code A/S than IM, which is the criteria for getting into the team league. I'm sure IM will get their spot regardless, but I wouldn't doubt it if they invite 2 more teams (HoSeo and MVP) to make it a 10 team tourney.
Very interesting map, I normally dont follow the team stuff much but might have to tune in a few times to check the map out. Pity about IM but current stats do seem the only fair way to do it in their current system. Still bit bummed however.
On May 12 2011 07:41 iTzAnglory wrote: Though IM is not even a good team, I definitely agree that GSTL should seed the finalist teams into the round of 8, if not Semifinals.
So the team that has won three (could be 4 by the time this happens) GSLs, the first GSTL and got second in the last GSTL isn't a good team?
It might be circular reasoning, but the fact remains that that members of team IM did not manage to get more points than Zenex and Fou.
But seriously, as the format of the GSTL mostly favours individual quality over team depth, there's a good argument to be had for IM not being a good team. Emphasis on team depth, I suppose.
They placed first and second in the team league. I don't see how you could try to argue that they aren't a good team. Players that aren't in GSL on that team are still quite good
On May 12 2011 07:41 iTzAnglory wrote: Though IM is not even a good team, I definitely agree that GSTL should seed the finalist teams into the round of 8, if not Semifinals.
So the team that has won three (could be 4 by the time this happens) GSLs, the first GSTL and got second in the last GSTL isn't a good team?
It might be circular reasoning, but the fact remains that that members of team IM did not manage to get more points than Zenex and Fou.
But seriously, as the format of the GSTL mostly favours individual quality over team depth, there's a good argument to be had for IM not being a good team. Emphasis on team depth, I suppose.
They placed first and second in the team league. I don't see how you could try to argue that they aren't a good team. Players that aren't in GSL on that team are still quite good
Exactly. Quite frankly the top two teams should be seeded into the next one. Just makes sense to me.
The format is clearly broken since IM didn't get in. It is too late to change it now, but it needs to be changed before the next one.
GSTL May will feature teams that have followed the rule that has been already announced.
However, the committee, the teams, and related people are continuously having discussions about the expansion of GSTL and we want to tell you that the talks are very positive.
Sounds fair to me. Rules were made before and everyone knew them. Now it´s time to rethink them and it should not be rushed. I would love to see IM too, but it would not be fair to change the rules now.
GSTL May will feature teams that have followed the rule that has been already announced.
However, the committee, the teams, and related people are continuously having discussions about the expansion of GSTL and we want to tell you that the talks are very positive.
Sounds fair to me. Rules were made before and everyone knew them. Now it´s time to rethink them and it should not be rushed. I would love to see IM too, but it would not be fair to change the rules now.
And expansion of GSTL sound awesome
I hope this expansion is the equivalent of Proleague and Winners League
On May 12 2011 05:22 MattsEffect wrote: Considering fou has exactly 1 player in the GSL (sC), and Zenex pretty much only has Byun/Kyrix holding them up (despite the fact that they're pretty consistently in the up/down matches), I'm really sad to see that IM isn't in the team league just because of this arbitrary rule. The team league points should be separate from the individual league.
You have to take into account that these are results from after Code A qualifiers, where fOu still had Leenock, choya ++ still in Code A
Every league benefits from a set of rules that promotes some degree of consistency. If rules are such that the winner from one season cannot return to defend for the upcoming season, then those rules are bad. Everyone wants to see how well a traditionally-strong team will fare in the upcoming season. Everyone wants to see grudge matches and rivalries form.
So all GOM has to do in the future is improve upon their short-sighted formula used to determine eligible teams.
Total Points = 1.6x + 1y + 1/z, where: x = number of players in Code S y = number of players in Code A z = team position in last GSTL
This way we'd see IM qualify ahead of fOu, and this next GSTL would be better for it.
For GOM to say that "everyone has to heed the same rules" is all well-and-good, but overlooks that the rules can be improved.
It is a little disappointing that a two time GSTL finalist team will not be in the team league, however they have used the system since the beginning and to make an exception or break the rules would be foolish and ridiculous. IM will be back there will be more GSTL's in the future, I love how Gom has been braining storming idea to make a better system for the future though based on the communities complaints. GSL is by far the best and most professional league on the planet currently.
1 - Count the points after the current season ends. fOu's code A fell into B, IM makes it easily. 2 - Change the system. Team points are the sum of their member's GSL ranking points. By that metric, underperforming ZeneX and flashy but wildly unproven MVP are out, IM and HoSeo are in, and the seeds look like this: (Please note that these are the ranks published on may 6, and should ideally be updated after GSL May. That may change the seedings some, possibly even bringing MVP into the picture.) 1. oGs (19707) 2. IM (15473) 3. Prime.WE (13012) 4. ST (6515) 5. TSL (5151) 6. fOu (4991) 7. HoSeo (4134) 8. SlayerS (2757)
Everyone so butthurt about IM not making the cut. The rules are rules and I respect that. If you guys won't buy a ticket just because IM is not there then it's your loss. No doubt this team league will be just as epic as the previous ones.
On May 16 2011 03:21 Corvette wrote: IM will be back for the next team league.
IIRC FOU has only 1 player in the GSL. If they get any more it will be from qualifiers
GSL announced they gonna change format for next seasons. So like 2 teams from finals will stay for next season and stuff like that ;p
I kinda wish that they didnt though.
What Ive always loved about the GSL is how much it rewards consistency. The process of going in and out of A/S
I know the other side of the argument is consistent results in the Team League, which IM has with 1st and 2nd place.
But I like having teams that have a larger presence in the individual league in the team league because it gives us more of the same players playing games. Instead of a bunch of code B players from other teams.
Teams that didn't qualify: 5. IM : (3+1) 5.8 (+0.6) 9. Liquid : (1+1) 2.6 (-0.6) 10. NS호서 : (0+2) 2 (-1.6) 12. FOX : (0+1) 1 (-0.6)
I think it's pretty obvious who the outlier is.... and which team was the ONLY ONE to gain points instead of losing them during the season. And that outlier isn't a scrappy new team, they're an old and tired team with 1 good player.
Teams that didn't qualify: 5. IM : (3+1) 5.8 (+0.6) 9. Liquid : (1+1) 2.6 (-0.6) 10. NS호서 : (0+2) 2 (-1.6) 12. FOX : (0+1) 1 (-0.6)
I think it's pretty obvious who the outlier is.... and which team was the ONLY ONE to gain points instead of losing them during the season. And that outlier isn't a scrappy new team, they're an old and tired team with 1 good player.
IM isn't an old and tired team with "1" good player. They have several good players. Nestea just won the Code S championship. MVP got silver in the Code A championship and Losira made it to the ro8 to lose to sCfou. They definitely have more than "1" good player.
Teams that didn't qualify: 5. IM : (3+1) 5.8 (+0.6) 9. Liquid : (1+1) 2.6 (-0.6) 10. NS호서 : (0+2) 2 (-1.6) 12. FOX : (0+1) 1 (-0.6)
I think it's pretty obvious who the outlier is.... and which team was the ONLY ONE to gain points instead of losing them during the season. And that outlier isn't a scrappy new team, they're an old and tired team with 1 good player.
IM isn't an old and tired team with "1" good player. They have several good players. Nestea just won the Code S championship. MVP got silver in the Code A championship and Losira made it to the ro8 to lose to sCfou. They definitely have more than "1" good player.
I think he was referring to fOu though I may be mistaken.
Either way, fOu is looking VERY weak now. Choya was hanging on for awhile there but finally fell... Leenock just disappeared from code A... and the rest have been struggling to make it into code A.
Teams that didn't qualify: 5. IM : (3+1) 5.8 (+0.6) 9. Liquid : (1+1) 2.6 (-0.6) 10. NS호서 : (0+2) 2 (-1.6) 12. FOX : (0+1) 1 (-0.6)
I think it's pretty obvious who the outlier is.... and which team was the ONLY ONE to gain points instead of losing them during the season. And that outlier isn't a scrappy new team, they're an old and tired team with 1 good player.
IM isn't an old and tired team with "1" good player. They have several good players. Nestea just won the Code S championship. MVP got silver in the Code A championship and Losira made it to the ro8 to lose to sCfou. They definitely have more than "1" good player.
I think he was referring to fOu though I may be mistaken.
Either way, fOu is looking VERY weak now. Choya was hanging on for awhile there but finally fell... Leenock just disappeared from code A... and the rest have been struggling to make it into code A.
Yeah he was referring to f0u, lol. Just his sentence was terribly worded. Outlier referring to f0u at -4.0
I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
lol, to have 3 very good players is a shallow line-up... I dont know what to say.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
What are you talking about every single one of their players is amazing lol. Just 'cause you couldn't smash your way through 1000 other people to get into a 64 man group doesn't mean shit.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
lol, to have 3 very good players is a shallow line-up... I dont know what to say.
that's what's so ridiculous about this situation, IM is a vastly better team than fOu. They have 3 GSL players who are all at least as good as fOu's only player.
Here's the thing... It's a "good move" by GomTV because they really didn't have any other options; letting IM in just because they're IM would've created outrage. They had to stick by the rules. It shouldn't have gotten here in the first place. Getting into Code A is a crap shoot with all the quality players -- and cheesers -- that are in the qualification rounds. IM has players like Yoda, YongHwa, and Seed that have shown us that they are most definitely Code A quality and probably better than a lot of Code A players. Unfortunately, that information is more subjective than objective and can't really be used as an argument for IM's strength. It is in Gom's interest to have IM participate in the tournament because of the fan base. There is no way fOu is a better overall team. They don't have individuals that excel consistently, and have continually been humiliated in the team league. Same with ZENEX. GomTV REALLY needed to see a situation coming like this beforehand where mediocrity is actually rewarding teams over proven excellence. You can't honestly say IM hasn't made their statement these last two seasons. Their "up and coming" kids have been roflstomping nerds in the team league, and they only used Mvp and Nestea when they absolutely had to.
On May 16 2011 15:28 mrjpark wrote: Here's the thing... It's a "good move" by GomTV because they really didn't have any other options; letting IM in just because they're IM would've created outrage. They had to stick by the rules. It shouldn't have gotten here in the first place. Getting into Code A is a crap shoot with all the quality players -- and cheesers -- that are in the qualification rounds. IM has players like Yoda, YongHwa, and Seed that have shown us that they are most definitely Code A quality and probably better than a lot of Code A players. Unfortunately, that information is more subjective than objective and can't really be used as an argument for IM's strength. It is in Gom's interest to have IM participate in the tournament because of the fan base. There is no way fOu is a better overall team. They don't have individuals that excel consistently, and have continually been humiliated in the team league. Same with ZENEX. GomTV REALLY needed to see a situation coming like this beforehand where mediocrity is actually rewarding teams over proven excellence. You can't honestly say IM hasn't made their statement these last two seasons. Their "up and coming" kids have been roflstomping nerds in the team league, and they only used Mvp and Nestea when they absolutely had to.
agreed, players like Yoda, YongHwa and seed are amazing players, and definitely worthy of kicking in in Code A. However, one way or another they did not make it to Code A. The rules are clear as day, and fOu simply have too many players in Code A. They do deserve their spot, as much as any other team. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the GTSL. Simple.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
That is the worst logic ever.
If that is the case, then why is fou in it? They have no depth at all, only one player in the whole GSL. IM has 3 championship quality players and proven performers in the GSTL (IMSeed who got a triple kill against oGs and IMYounghwa who is 7-2 in GSTL).
This team is 10 times stronger and deeper than fOu.
On May 16 2011 15:28 mrjpark wrote: Here's the thing... It's a "good move" by GomTV because they really didn't have any other options; letting IM in just because they're IM would've created outrage. They had to stick by the rules. It shouldn't have gotten here in the first place. Getting into Code A is a crap shoot with all the quality players -- and cheesers -- that are in the qualification rounds. IM has players like Yoda, YongHwa, and Seed that have shown us that they are most definitely Code A quality and probably better than a lot of Code A players. Unfortunately, that information is more subjective than objective and can't really be used as an argument for IM's strength. It is in Gom's interest to have IM participate in the tournament because of the fan base. There is no way fOu is a better overall team. They don't have individuals that excel consistently, and have continually been humiliated in the team league. Same with ZENEX. GomTV REALLY needed to see a situation coming like this beforehand where mediocrity is actually rewarding teams over proven excellence. You can't honestly say IM hasn't made their statement these last two seasons. Their "up and coming" kids have been roflstomping nerds in the team league, and they only used Mvp and Nestea when they absolutely had to.
agreed, players like Yoda, YongHwa and seed are amazing players, and definitely worthy of kicking in in Code A. However, one way or another they did not make it to Code A. The rules are clear as day, and fOu simply have too many players in Code A. They do deserve their spot, as much as any other team. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the GTSL. Simple.
Funny thing is that it looks like fOu only has one guy left in the GSL after the up-and-downs? I mean, once again, GomTV can't change the rules after they figure out where they screwed up, but sh*t.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
That is the worst logic ever.
If that is the case, then why is fou in it? They have no depth at all, only one player in the whole GSL. IM has 3 championship quality players and proven performers in the GSTL (IMSeed who got a triple kill against oGs and IMYounghwa who is 7-2 in GSTL).
This team is 10 times stronger and deeper than fOu.
As you can easily see in the OP, the snapshot used for the team ranking has fOu with 4 code A players and 1 in code S.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
That is the worst logic ever.
If that is the case, then why is fou in it? They have no depth at all, only one player in the whole GSL. IM has 3 championship quality players and proven performers in the GSTL (IMSeed who got a triple kill against oGs and IMYounghwa who is 7-2 in GSTL).
This team is 10 times stronger and deeper than fOu.
As you can easily see in the OP, the snapshot used for the team ranking has fOu with 4 code A players and 1 in code S.
The problem is that those four Code A players are no longer in Code A. They all lost in the first round, and now a team with one player in the GSL is in the GSTL over IM.
I need to rephrase what I said because everyone has taken it wrong, I'm not saying IM is a bad team. This is wrong because I still believe them to be the best team overall and I'll still take them over any other team, even Slayers. That said however they have 3 excellent players but they don't have an assortment of players to back those guys up.
Seed and Yongwha are undoubtedly good players but until they start shifting their weight in Code A and S, they'll simply be another Leenock. Underachievers. If you look at the people they beat in the last two Team Leagues, it was mainly the mid level players from oGs and ZeNex who are hardly that great of a team before. Of course it's not fair for me to not give them a chance before they even got into Code A but doing well simply in Team leagues doesn't matter in the long run. Ace and Squirtle faded out in the GSL after doing well in the TL, at least Alicia, MMA and Ryung are doing well for Slayers.
oGs has MC, Nada and a bunch of their many other strong terran players to pick from. In hindsight, I guess ST are in a similar position to IM though Bomber's current form makes him look invincible against anyone, maybe MC or Nestea could beat him. TSL has FD, Sangho, Tester, Cliiiiiiiiiiide and now aLive who are all extremely good. Sure some of them have been overrated but they're all worthy code S players. Prime is pretty overrated though, relying almost purely on HongUn and MKP entirely and maybe Check and Maka who both are Code A at best.
I just checked the roster and I believe IM also has the smallest player roster of all the teams. I guess saying they're team is shallow isn't fair to IM however having my point still remains, having 3 players in A/S isn't enough to make your overall team extremely strong. Being reliant on few players isn't something a team wants to do
They now have 3 players in Code S and 1 player in Code A. As opposed to 1 player in Code S for fOu. My point isn't that they needed to be made an exception or that being top heavy is favorable, it's that the system being used is wrong. While it is important to see how many players are in the GSL, you should probably wait a week or two to make your judgement or the rug gets pulled out from under you like it did this season. And as I typed this, it looks like ZeNEX is about to lose 4-0 in the first round for the second season in a row. Another reason I don't agree with your argument is that it's not really possible for teams to not be top heavy. When you don't have superstars like NesTea, MC, or July, you end up looking like ZeNEX. SlayerS is a very rare situation. When you do have these stars, you're going to be "top heavy" because they just overshadow everyone else on the team. How is losing in the Code A qualification finals any more underachieving than getting there and losing your first game and getting kicked back out?
Also, how many of you guys actually watch the whole GSTL season? IM never relies on their heavyweights. YongHwa is a bit more popular because of his influence on Protoss builds, but a lot of these guys were pure unknowns when they showed up owning faces. You actually rarely see Mvp or NesTea unless the other team sniped their player with someone especially strong. They like to throw out their kids to give them experience, and they're all generally pretty good, albeit they're usually not Code S quality.
On May 16 2011 18:17 Dakkas wrote: I need to rephrase what I said because everyone has taken it wrong, I'm not saying IM is a bad team. This is wrong because I still believe them to be the best team overall and I'll still take them over any other team, even Slayers. That said however they have 3 excellent players but they don't have an assortment of players to back those guys up.
Seed and Yongwha are undoubtedly good players but until they start shifting their weight in Code A and S, they'll simply be another Leenock. Underachievers. If you look at the people they beat in the last two Team Leagues, it was mainly the mid level players from oGs and ZeNex who are hardly that great of a team before. Of course it's not fair for me to not give them a chance before they even got into Code A but doing well simply in Team leagues doesn't matter in the long run. Ace and Squirtle faded out in the GSL after doing well in the TL, at least Alicia, MMA and Ryung are doing well for Slayers.
oGs has MC, Nada and a bunch of their many other strong terran players to pick from. In hindsight, I guess ST are in a similar position to IM though Bomber's current form makes him look invincible against anyone, maybe MC or Nestea could beat him. TSL has FD, Sangho, Tester, Cliiiiiiiiiiide and now aLive who are all extremely good. Sure some of them have been overrated but they're all worthy code S players. Prime is pretty overrated though, relying almost purely on HongUn and MKP entirely and maybe Check and Maka who both are Code A at best.
I just checked the roster and I believe IM also has the smallest player roster of all the teams. I guess saying they're team is shallow isn't fair to IM however having my point still remains, having 3 players in A/S isn't enough to make your overall team extremely strong. Being reliant on few players isn't something a team wants to do
Your talking out of your ass. IM deserve to be there.
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
lol, to have 3 very good players is a shallow line-up... I dont know what to say.
Me either.
A lot of stupid people keep saying the best SC2 team have a shallow line up......
On May 16 2011 14:56 Dakkas wrote: I support GOM for what they did, about not letting IM in. While it's true IM is one of the strongest teams, they have a rather shallow line-up overall with a heavy reliance on MVP, Nestea and Losira most of the time.
The purpose of the team league to test who has the better team overall, having one star player will only get you so far.
lol, to have 3 very good players is a shallow line-up... I dont know what to say.
Me either.
A lot of stupid people keep saying the best SC2 team have a shallow line up......
A few things here, first part in regards to the system Gom uses. Stating the system they use is 'wrong' is flat out, well, wrong itself. It's only a partial solution for team selection (seeding is also needed for finalists). I do agree that waiting until the end of GSL was better but hindsight is always 20/20 vision.
My other point still stands, IM has one of the smallest rosters with all of their seeded players in Code S and . The rest of them are still have a long way to go before they're even in Code A. Ace and Squirtle amazed us in the first GSTL but they haven't been able to translate that into individual success in the GSL and thus, underachievers.
Seed rolled the average - solid oGs players while Yongwha rolled ZeNex in GTSL 1. Neither is that great of a feat, it's good nonetheless but nothing that shouts out top-tier. In GSTL 2, Seed didn't even play, Yongawha did play but his game against Alicia was Alicia losing and Golden who is a solid player at best.
EDIT: Now looking at all the extra posts, I'm not sure if people are being butt-hurt fanboys or logical. I NEVER SAID IM DON'T DESERVE TO BE IN THE GSTL. I initially said that I respect Gom for sticking to their decisions. I even clarified and changed my wording when I said shallow
On May 16 2011 20:10 Dakkas wrote: A few things here, first part in regards to the system Gom uses. Stating the system they use is 'wrong' is flat out, well, wrong itself. It's only a partial solution for team selection (seeding is also needed for finalists). I do agree that waiting until the end of GSL was better but hindsight is always 20/20 vision.
No, the implementation of their system is, quite plainly, wrong. The team league happens after individual league finals, is announced after individual league finals, and uses information from before the individual league.
None, absolutely none, of this outrage happens if teams are ranked with the most current information.
I think the real crime here is that we have yet to see a Liquid player participate in the team league. If the ogs/liquid partnership is so strong they should let the liquid players strut their stuff.
its a KOTH format, winner stays and keeps playing, therefore if you hou have 3 very good players you have a shallow line-up, but it doesn't matter.
Look at KTrolster in BroodWar, Their team has no depth at all compared to the other teams, but they have Flash and Stats carrying them through with the KOTH format.
Shallow line-up means little in a KOTH format.
I get it that they didn't get in, but having a shallow line-up is no excuse for not letting them in, the rules are.
On May 16 2011 20:10 Dakkas wrote: A few things here, first part in regards to the system Gom uses. Stating the system they use is 'wrong' is flat out, well, wrong itself. It's only a partial solution for team selection (seeding is also needed for finalists). I do agree that waiting until the end of GSL was better but hindsight is always 20/20 vision.
No, the implementation of their system is, quite plainly, wrong. The team league happens after individual league finals, is announced after individual league finals, and uses information from before the individual league.
None, absolutely none, of this outrage happens if teams are ranked with the most current information.
Only after the qualifiers do we know who the 32 Code A players are. So then there's the question which season do you count the points of those Code A players for?
1) The previous GSTL (March). This option is impossible without time travel, you don't know the results of the May qualifiers back in March. 2) The current GSTL (May). This option has the 32 Code A players decided by the May qualifiers count towards the May GSL and the May GSTL? That makes too much sense. 3) The next GSTL (July). This option has the Code A players who have lost in May, who may not re-qualify in the future July GSL, with a June GSL Super Tournament in between, count towards the July GSTL two months later.
Tournaments are not finalized weeks or months in advance because of scheduling and possible conflicting events (like MLG Columbus). The fact of the matter is the teams are exactly who they should be, but people are upset a) one of the favorite teams is not in it and b) this was not announced until later, even though later was the appropriate time to announce it.
On May 17 2011 10:01 Dimagus wrote: Only after the qualifiers do we know who the 32 Code A players are. So then there's the question which season do you count the points of those Code A players for?
My preferred solution is to use cumulative GSL point totals of all players on a team, but that's not the question you asked.
I'd much rather only have 16 players give their teams the points from code A. In your system, it'd be option 2.5 - The current GSL (32 code S, 16 code A).
It's ridiculous that fOu has credit for 4 of their code B players, IM has credit for none of theirs.
On May 17 2011 10:01 Dimagus wrote: Tournaments are not finalized weeks or months in advance because of scheduling and possible conflicting events (like MLG Columbus).
This isn't really correct (team leagues have always been the week after the code S finals, they're held during the week and don't interfere with anything, until this week GSL didn't schedule around anybody), and just helps my point anyway, so, thanks.
On May 10 2011 14:06 Boblhead wrote: whats the point in not letting IM join? isnt this supposed to support esports and have the "TOP" teams play?
Top teams get decided by results. Surely you can't be considered a top team if you don't have the current results to back it up. The other teams that are ahead of IM have proven, by showing results, that they are indeed a top team. I do agree that IM is a very good team, but if they aren't proving it consistantly then where is the credibility?
Yup. To be a top team, you need be a top team.
The other issue is the cutoff time for setting the teams. Needs to be done as late as possible.
On May 17 2011 10:13 Wren wrote: My preferred solution is to use cumulative GSL point totals of all players on a team, but that's not the question you asked.
I'd much rather only have 16 players give their teams the points from code A. In your system, it'd be option 2.5 - The current GSL (32 code S, 16 code A).
It's ridiculous that fOu has credit for 4 of their code B players, IM has credit for none of theirs.
"In [my] system"? There is no "my system" that's simply the way the GSTL is currently setup. I was pointing out how crazy it would be if they changed when the points were calculated (past/future versus present). People are acting like there's some kind of flaw or ambiguity with the setup but the math is simple and the structure makes perfect sense.
It's nice that people love the IM team and want to see them compete, but let's not kid ourselves there wouldn't have been so many complaints if it was MVP or ZeNEX in IM's situation. Everyone that is generating this alleged controversy for IM and trying to get the GSL to bend over backwards and do a system change would be telling their proponents to "Do better and qualify for Code A/S" (That's the nice version of Learn 2 Play).
Say they do make a system change and end up doing cumulative points. Months down the road a new great team that forms will spark another generated controversy about how the system favors the older teams over recent performance. But really the only adaption the team league should need to make down the road is increasing the number of GSTL participants as more teams are formed.
On May 17 2011 10:13 Wren wrote: This isn't really correct (team leagues have always been the week after the code S finals, they're held during the week and don't interfere with anything, until this week GSL didn't schedule around anybody), and just helps my point anyway, so, thanks.
Why are you assuming I was talking only about the team league as far as scheduling? Potential conflicts and schedule changes have already occurred multiple times. Examples include planning around MLG, the Up & Down matches before the 1.3.3 patch, the World Championship season, start time adjustments for airing on Korean Cable TV, rescheduling during Blizzcon, and removing the breaks between Code A/S matches (they further changed this by having A and S on separate days).
For anyone who missed it, here is Yonghwa's feelings about IM being excluded from the GSTL.
It is unfortunate team IM will not be participating in GSTL. What do you feel about your team’s exclusion in the third GSTL?
This question requires a delicate answer. I am very sad that IM won’t be able to participate in the GSTL. However we don’t have any complaint about it. The rules are stated clearly and as players and coaches, we must abide by the rules. I personally feel responsible for the exclusion of IM in the GSTL as I could have raised my team’s points by qualifying for a Code A, a goal that I failed this season. Most of my teammates including my coach firmly believed that I would qualify for Code A, but I repeatedly failed them. I am genuinely sorry. I will try my very best to qualify for the next season. This is the third GSTL. I personally pray that Startale will win this one. However, I hope that IM wins the rest of the future GSTLs. Please watch us win all the upcoming GSTLs and cheer for us continuously!
Only one to blame for IM missing out on the GSTL is IM. IM have the elite players to win the whole thing, but Yonghwa, Junwi, Seed, and all the others failed to qualify for code A even though they are clearly good enough to. It's like a championship caliber team that fails to make the playoffs because they choked in the regular season. You wouldn't expect MLB to change the rules just to let the Yankees into the playoffs if they didn't earn it right? No reason to hate on GOM for following the rules and holding all teams to the same standard.
On May 17 2011 10:13 Wren wrote: My preferred solution is to use cumulative GSL point totals of all players on a team, but that's not the question you asked.
I'd much rather only have 16 players give their teams the points from code A. In your system, it'd be option 2.5 - The current GSL (32 code S, 16 code A).
It's ridiculous that fOu has credit for 4 of their code B players, IM has credit for none of theirs.
"In [my] system"? There is no "my system" that's simply the way the GSTL is currently setup. I was pointing out how crazy it would be if they changed when the points were calculated (past/future versus present). People are acting like there's some kind of flaw or ambiguity with the setup but the math is simple and the structure makes perfect sense.
It's nice that people love the IM team and want to see them compete, but let's not kid ourselves there wouldn't have been so many complaints if it was MVP or ZeNEX in IM's situation. Everyone that is generating this alleged controversy for IM and trying to get the GSL to bend over backwards and do a system change would be telling their proponents to "Do better and qualify for Code A/S" (That's the nice version of Learn 2 Play).
Say they do make a system change and end up doing cumulative points. Months down the road a new great team that forms will spark another generated controversy about how the system favors the older teams over recent performance. But really the only adaption the team league should need to make down the road is increasing the number of GSTL participants as more teams are formed.
On May 17 2011 10:13 Wren wrote: This isn't really correct (team leagues have always been the week after the code S finals, they're held during the week and don't interfere with anything, until this week GSL didn't schedule around anybody), and just helps my point anyway, so, thanks.
Why are you assuming I was talking only about the team league as far as scheduling? Potential conflicts and schedule changes have already occurred multiple times. Examples include planning around MLG, the Up & Down matches before the 1.3.3 patch, the World Championship season, start time adjustments for airing on Korean Cable TV, rescheduling during Blizzcon, and removing the breaks between Code A/S matches (they further changed this by having A and S on separate days).
~Your number system, yes. ~You left out the most sensible point of calculation in your representation of options, so I provided it. ~A points system favors accomplishments, so as soon as a team can be called great, it would have something to prove it. ~This whole thread is about the team league, bringing up points that don't apply is silly.
There's no question that the reaction has been more intense because it's IM that's left out. They're the most accomplished GSTL team and many people's favorite Korean team. However, examination of the system has exposed glaring faults in how the teams are ranked. The system currently employed was fine for very early starcraft, when players hadn't distinguished themselves, but this month, IMMvp and TopClassfOu are considered exactly the same. In any setting, team or individual, that's silly.
There is neither ambiguity nor confusion, just ignorance of the last month's results.
@ red4ce: If GSTL were formed the way MLB playoffs were, there'd be no complaint, and IM would be no lower than 2nd seed.
i think maybe GSTL should have a top two seed, so that teams that made it finals in the last tournament get included into the next tournament. After all in a Team League if you make it to the finals it tends to not be from flukes.
I just hope they learn from it. They are in no position to make judgement, predict the future or decide what is fair and what is not. Apperently it has show there is nothing wrong with the system after all, and I would like it if they can just remind that for the next time any such topic comes up. Because they do in many forms on a variety of different topics.
Well I'm guessing some folk here would like to retract some of their statements.
No. Absolutely not. The entirety of their success was due to a player who has never made code A, and is utterly irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.
Well I'm guessing some folk here would like to retract some of their statements.
No. Absolutely not. The entirety of their success was due to a player who has never made code A, and is utterly irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.
Most of IM's success in GSTL was from people who never made it into Code A.
Well I'm guessing some folk here would like to retract some of their statements.
No. Absolutely not. The entirety of their success was due to a player who has never made code A, and is utterly irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.
What? IM was left out of this GSTL and I would argue that it produced the best games yet. This takes nothing away from the IM players, but the team is not particularly deep. If I want to watch MVP, Nestea, and LosirA play a bunch of games, I'll watch the regular GSL. The reason SlayerS is so strong in the GSTL and the reason they got to the finals again is because they have SO many good players, not just a few aces.
IMO IM is a boring team to watch in the GSTL. Probably better than ZeNex or fOu, but they really need to deepen their roster.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UVoGA.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AbReF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BCqXp.jpg)
. Guess I'll be cheering for oGs then.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rynIH.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wQlbd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/NewIMLineup.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FcU91.jpg)
