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On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that.
Losing an entire army is not a small mistake. Losing two games in a row when you have a 2 - 0 extended series advantage because you do a predictable Roach/Ling all in is not a small mistake. My point is that each race has an infinite and unique set of situations that will just straight up lead to a loss. Zerg has to play at an economic advantage to even have a chance versus Protoss and Terran in a standard game. There's exception to this depending on different styles though, take Morrow recent ZvP for example.
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You guys have to get away from stretching yourselves thin by doing so much shit like this show because right now as it stands, the Koreans will only get more ahead.
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On June 08 2011 09:30 dpL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. Losing an entire army is not a small mistake. Losing two games in a row when you have a 2 - 0 extended series advantage because you do a predictable Roach/Ling all in is not a small mistake. My point is that each race has a unique set of infinite situations when a small mistake can end the game for them.
I wasn't speaking towards any of those games specifically at all. Of course you'll lose when your entire army dies. But if you trade armies on a big map with time to reinforce than you should be dead unless you take risky expansions and try to catch up. Most zergs just think it's too easy to roll over their maxed army.
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On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army. Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages.
Yes but what one thing could a zerg ever do that would wipe out a protoss that was up 3 bases on them? MC was able to win that because he made a handful of DTs. Idra's army was even supposedly superior on paper.
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So, any predictions on when that EG house is going to happen? 
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On June 08 2011 09:30 dpL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. Losing an entire army is not a small mistake. Losing two games in a row when you have a 2 - 0 extended series advantage because you do a predictable Roach/Ling all in is not a small mistake. My point is that each race has a unique set of infinite situations when a small mistake can end the game for them.
We're talking specifically about the game with the DTs in the second series here.
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On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army. Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages. ...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error.
But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army.
It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch.
IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp.
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Wow Idra only practices 3 hours a day???
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lol 3 hours that's not a lot...
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rofl there are people still complaining about zvp?
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On June 08 2011 09:32 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:30 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. Losing an entire army is not a small mistake. Losing two games in a row when you have a 2 - 0 extended series advantage because you do a predictable Roach/Ling all in is not a small mistake. My point is that each race has a unique set of infinite situations when a small mistake can end the game for them. We're talking specifically about the game with the DTs in the second series here.
I'm talking about that as well, but I'm also saying that there's even more variables, a lot of them completely unrelated to the 'actual' game, which are always important to bring up when IdrA talks about balance... among other things. He's been rationalizing losses like this ever since Brood War, the most revered competitive RTS of all time.
Either way, I don't see how you can think it's unfair that a Zerg with two more bases can't crush a Protoss but a Protoss can crush a Zerg if he's got that much of a lead. Zerg has to play at an economic advantage if you play standard. That's the way the game more or less works, especially if you are gonna put one blob up against another. You can still find yourself in a position where you can't remax if you lose your army in a bad position, that doesn't mean the game is broken or unfair. You don't even bring up anything beyond the bases and the one mistake, there's stuff like composition, control, maps and psychological factors. It's ridiculous.
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On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army. Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages. ...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp.
Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot.
Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier.
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What are these 1.4 notes that were mentioned? Just random rumors?
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LOL iNcontrol saying rape on stream after whining about it for hours and hours on WoC and SotG, so ridiculous.
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On June 08 2011 09:34 MechKing wrote:
Wow Idra only practices 3 hours a day???
Depends what IdrA counts as practice. He's long said the ladder isn't practice for him. Still, its not too unfeasible that he only plays 3 hours a day (on average).
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On June 08 2011 09:41 Makotoo wrote:
LOL iNcontrol saying rape on stream after whining about it for hours and hours on WoC and SotG, so ridiculous.
He didn't whine about it, he said something along the lines of "as the game becomes bigger and bigger (in public view), words such as rape should be phased out to be more and more public friendly"
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On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army. Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages. ...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier.
They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 08 2011 09:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:41 Makotoo wrote:
LOL iNcontrol saying rape on stream after whining about it for hours and hours on WoC and SotG, so ridiculous. He didn't whine about it, he said something along the lines of "as the game becomes bigger and bigger (in public view), words such as rape should be phased out to be more and more public friendly"
uh
If I said the word ever it would only be in the context of "don't say this"
wtf
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lol machine breakin out the cat
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EPT
