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On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:
[quote]
Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that. All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army. Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages. ...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that
If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that.
A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra.
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Hey IdrA,
If you read this, I just want to say that your fans love you, and the only reason they're so critical is that they believe you have the potential to be one of the greatest players in the world. And whenever you lose to hallucinated voidrays or some other stupid mistake it's like watching Bobby Fischer punch himself in the nuts during a game. It such a confounding and perplexing and heartbreaking spectacle to watch.
Hang in there man, we're rooting for you.
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On June 08 2011 10:19 MechKing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 10:07 Gumbot wrote:
there is no difference between jam and jelly right? I always thought that jam had chunks of fruit in it and stuff, while jelly is more of a spreading thing.
Jelly uses fruit juices, whereas jam uses crushed fruit.
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United States15275 Posts
I wish Idra would play the player instead of the race. So many of his decisions are perfectly logical considering the maps and what he sees, but against a player like MC it's not enough. All his roach aggression was perfectly countered by that stargate opening on maps where the aggression was perfectly justified, and MC knew that.
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On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 09:19 dpL wrote:On June 08 2011 09:12 GwSC wrote:
Incontrol is certainly right that Idra made a bunch of mistakes and could have played it better.
On the other hand, Idra is correct that its ridiculous that MC was able to so easily come back and win.
A Zerg could never ever come back from being down 2-3 bases against a decent Protoss. Protoss can't make 10 probes at a time. Hydras can't blink. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that.
It's so easy for zerg to take bases that if P couldnt come back from being down a couple of bases then it would be impossible to win vs Z.
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On June 08 2011 10:33 Defacer wrote:
Hey IdrA,
If you read this, I just want to say that your fans love you, and the only reason they're so critical is that they believe you have the potential to be one of the greatest players in the world. And whenever you lose to hallucinated voidrays or some other stupid mistake it's like watching Bobby Fischer punch himself in the nuts during a game. It such a confounding and perplexing and heartbreaking spectacle to watch.
Hang in there man, we're rooting for you.
Well said.
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when are we going to see the patch to increase supply to
************ 300 FOOD SUPPLY ***************
I'm so tired of watching zergs get butt raped when they are at 200 food supply and can't make any more units.
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When will the episode be uploaded? Should I wait up?
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Yo yo gabba is very entertaining, especially with all the celebrities.
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Today's show was great. Keep it up! ^^
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United States7483 Posts
On June 08 2011 12:45 ccherng wrote:
when are we going to see the patch to increase supply to
************ 300 FOOD SUPPLY ***************
I'm so tired of watching zergs get butt raped when they are at 200 food supply and can't make any more units.
Imagine if the protoss deathball is at 300 food.
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On June 08 2011 13:51 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 12:45 ccherng wrote:
when are we going to see the patch to increase supply to
************ 300 FOOD SUPPLY ***************
I'm so tired of watching zergs get butt raped when they are at 200 food supply and can't make any more units. Imagine if the protoss deathball is at 300 food.
The horror, the horror....
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On June 08 2011 11:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 10:33 Defacer wrote:
Hey IdrA,
If you read this, I just want to say that your fans love you, and the only reason they're so critical is that they believe you have the potential to be one of the greatest players in the world. And whenever you lose to hallucinated voidrays or some other stupid mistake it's like watching Bobby Fischer punch himself in the nuts during a game. It such a confounding and perplexing and heartbreaking spectacle to watch.
Hang in there man, we're rooting for you. Well said.
I concur.
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On June 08 2011 14:20 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 11:05 AntiGrav1ty wrote:On June 08 2011 10:33 Defacer wrote:
Hey IdrA,
If you read this, I just want to say that your fans love you, and the only reason they're so critical is that they believe you have the potential to be one of the greatest players in the world. And whenever you lose to hallucinated voidrays or some other stupid mistake it's like watching Bobby Fischer punch himself in the nuts during a game. It such a confounding and perplexing and heartbreaking spectacle to watch.
Hang in there man, we're rooting for you. Well said. I concur.
Thanks. You could tell by IdrA's mood on Inside the Game that the way he lost does bother him, and he does have heart.
Once he stops throwing away games, he's going to be dominant. Well, he pretty much already is.
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On June 08 2011 14:17 Mord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 13:51 Whitewing wrote:On June 08 2011 12:45 ccherng wrote:
when are we going to see the patch to increase supply to
************ 300 FOOD SUPPLY ***************
I'm so tired of watching zergs get butt raped when they are at 200 food supply and can't make any more units. Imagine if the protoss deathball is at 300 food. The horror, the horror....
Thats not the issue here. Protoss 3 bases vs Zerg 5 bases is not going to end in a protoss deathball of 300 food rolling the zerg. On the other hand, if the protoss is the one way ahead then you'd expect any supply cap number to let the protoss rape the zerg.
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On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:20 GwSC wrote:
[quote]
What exactly is your point? Are you saying you think it is ok for Zerg to be so fragile that they can be up 3 bases and lose because of one mistake? My point is just that it is not right for T and P to be so much more forgiving in terms of making little mistakes like that.
All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army. Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages. ...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra.
If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. Until then that is so completely irrelevant that you have to be joking. Protoss and terrans both have similar economies due to mules/chrono and they are about equal strength on equal bases. The same is not true at all for zerg.
As for 2/2 hydras losing to 3/0 blink stakers, how does that not make sense. Hydras have so little HP that the armor doesn't even significantly help, they're still going to die quickly. There's a reason you don't see mass hydra in ZvZ, you mix in roaches. Having high DPS means nothing when they are dying at such a fast rate that they are incapable of utilizing it. There were not enough fungals to blanket the protoss army which is unnecessary for that late in the game. Blink stalkers can blink back and preserve their life so the stalker ball lasts almost twice as long, that is why you need infestors.
MC protected his stalkers from dying in a couple engagements where he killed the zerg army so he was able to get a large stalker ball rolling. Stalkers are also 125/50 compared to hydras being 100/50. So the race that is able to get more economy without a problem should be able to use a cheaper unit to beat the lower-econ high expensive high damage race's unit? You might as well complain that you can't kill zealots with three zerglings.
If MC is 180 supply in stalkers (it wasn't 170, I'll watch the replay but it was at least 180) he was also probably around 55ish supply in workers since he was barely able to get up to three base. IdrA looked to be about 20 supply in corruptors but also had another ~75 in drones. A cheaper, lower supply glass cannon army loses to mass blink stalkers, who knew.
And lol at the 300 supply cap limit. In that case make roaches 3 or 4 food so that the zerg doesn't make 250 supply of roaches while the protoss is struggling to put up his third base. There's a reason roaches are supply inefficien, they're 75/25 and when upgraded beat a 125/50 stalker one on one. I remember Min v Genius where he was 200/200 maxed on tunneling claw roaches in like 13 minutes and amoved them at Genius's 110-120 supply. How about game one on metal against MC where he was able to get up to four base when MC was on two, then took a fifth one and just streamed units down? What other race can put their entire army into overlords, lose half of them, get trapped and destroyed and then still pull out ahead easily?
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On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:On June 08 2011 09:24 StUfF wrote:
[quote]
All races will lose if their "one mistake" costs them their whole army.
Resources/bases don't mean anything if you don't convert them to actual advantages. ...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking.
What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines.
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Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to.
MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life.
If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say.
8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150.
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EPT
