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On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:
[quote]
...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines.
but those economic differences only exist because of the racial differences. saying its impossible for a zerg to come back from being 2 bases down against a protoss is ridiculous because if a protoss has 5 bases to a zergs 3 they are much much more ahead than if a zerg has 5 to a protoss' 3.
i can't believe people are actually complaining about balance in relation to that game, he let 4 dts kill his whole fucking army and had a bunch of corruptors doing nothing its really really simple
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On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:25 Serpico wrote:
[quote]
...having a better economy is an actual advantage. Execution is what you're talking about really, it's not like top zergs bank 5k/5k off 5 bases and think they dont need to attack, they just feel there should be greater margin of error. But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army. It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch. IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines.
Lol are you serious? He tried to make a point about a terran or zerg being down 5 to 3 mining bases against a protoss. Obviously the terran would lose in that scenario because they are equally strong on equal bases, their worker production capabilities are almost equal, and their units are cost-for-cost equal in large battle scenarios. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss would be significantly stronger than the terran. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss is SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the zerg because they are able to power out 12 drones in one round and make cheaper hatcheries. This means that their economy is easier to make bigger, so if your economy is lower than the race that makes one probe per base and their bases are more expensive, that means you are behind.
Also, in case you didn't see in the last page:
Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to.
MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life.
If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say. DTs were almost even irrelevant since it was just one that almost killed about 4-5 hydras and the additional 3 in the army were warped in when it was almost over.
8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150. It was a 25 minute game and IdrA had JUST gotten infestors for god sake and didn't even use them. People think IdrA should have won that when he had a higher economy an entire 25 minute game and all he had to show for it were 5 useless infestors, 2 more armor upgrades, and -1 attack upgrade? Fighting a maxed stalker army with cheaper, fewer hydralisks? Okay then. With his economy and MC's lack of sentries he probably would have been better off making 100 banelings and amoving them at the blink stalkers.
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Zergs still whining about ZvP when they're winning the majority of them. How very surprising.
Go learn to play like Losira or Nestea who beat up Protosses for fun.
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On June 08 2011 17:06 Yaotzin wrote:
Zergs still whining about ZvP when they're winning the majority of them. How very surprising.
Go learn to play like Losira or Nestea who beat up Protosses for fun.
I make 80 drones and amove roach/hydra armies at the best protoss in the world with my 170 apm while during the battle he is using 300.
y i no win? Imbalance.
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On June 08 2011 16:58 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 09:33 flodeskum wrote:
[quote]
But he lost his army and his economy at the same time and he was also teching and hadn't seen a return for that investment. It was the worst possible time to lose that army.
It wasn't an easy comeback by any means. Those DTs were absolutely clutch.
IMO idra wouldn't make a similar mistake against a terran because he is so comfortable in his zvt. And I don't think MC would have pulled that game back against losira, or any top zerg that is comfortable in his zvp. Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot. Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines. Lol are you serious? He tried to make a point about a terran or zerg being down 5 to 3 mining bases against a protoss. Obviously the terran would lose in that scenario because they are equally strong on equal bases, their worker production capabilities are almost equal, and their units are cost-for-cost equal in large battle scenarios. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss would be significantly stronger than the terran. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss is SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the zerg because they are able to power out 12 drones in one round and make cheaper hatcheries. This means that their economy is easier to make bigger, so if your economy is lower than the race that makes one probe per base and their bases are more expensive, that means you are behind. Also, in case you didn't see in the last page: Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to. MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life. If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say. DTs were almost even irrelevant since it was just one that almost killed about 4-5 hydras and the additional 3 in the army were warped in when it was almost over. 8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150. It was a 25 minute game and IdrA had JUST gotten infestors for god sake and didn't even use them. People think IdrA should have won that when he had a higher economy an entire 25 minute game and all he had to show for it were 5 useless infestors, 2 more armor upgrades, and -1 attack upgrade? Fighting a maxed stalker army with cheaper, fewer hydralisks? Okay then. With his economy and MC's lack of sentries he probably would have been better off making 100 banelings and amoving them at the blink stalkers.
No one is arguing that Idra should have won that battle. I agree that Idra should have lost that battle. What I am saying is that its just ridiculous that because of the 200 supply limit all the TIME BEFORE that final battle are just useless for being on 5 bases (up 2 bases) and not be able to go to 250 supply with a massive army and just A-move in with it.
If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking.
Its not as bad as you make it out to be. Zergs need to make units to defend themselves from dying. Its probably the case that many Protoss are willingly letting the Zerg macro up a major drone advantage (let the zerg create 12 workers at a time) because they know that with a passive turtle style they can eventually take advantage of the 200 supply cap and kill the Zerg.
If the supply cap is increased to 300 then Protoss won't have the luxury of just letting the Zerg get ahead and then count on the 200 cap to win. They'll have to play active to keep the food count comparable rather than play passive turtle style.
And lol at the 300 supply cap limit. In that case make roaches 3 or 4 food so that the zerg doesn't make 250 supply of roaches while the protoss is struggling to put up his third base.
In other words, increase the cap to 300 and Protoss players will start trying to prevent Zergs from getting easy 3rd/4th bases because right now "Protoss players are struggling to put up his third base" because they are intentionally putting themselves behind because they KNOW they can rely on 200 supply cap gimmick. You can't say for sure there is no way for Protoss to keep the food count close by playing actively because there isn't any incentive right now for the Protoss to try active play.
Until there is evidence that its impossible for the Protoss player to keep the food count close with a style that is NOT passive-turtle I think that a 300 cap is a good idea to consider.
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On June 08 2011 17:40 ccherng wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 16:58 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:On June 08 2011 09:36 GwSC wrote:
[quote]
Again, the problem isn't the fact that he lost due to losing his army and economy. Its that fact that this was able to happen so easily when he was up more than 2 bases, and at even supply. If you saw a Zerg win while being down that many bases against a Protoss because he built 5 infestors, Protoss players would riot.
Actually I'm not sure if it was even supply, I think Idra may have been ahead in supply if I remember right. He said he was maxed at the time earlier. They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines. Lol are you serious? He tried to make a point about a terran or zerg being down 5 to 3 mining bases against a protoss. Obviously the terran would lose in that scenario because they are equally strong on equal bases, their worker production capabilities are almost equal, and their units are cost-for-cost equal in large battle scenarios. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss would be significantly stronger than the terran. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss is SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the zerg because they are able to power out 12 drones in one round and make cheaper hatcheries. This means that their economy is easier to make bigger, so if your economy is lower than the race that makes one probe per base and their bases are more expensive, that means you are behind. Also, in case you didn't see in the last page: Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to. MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life. If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say. DTs were almost even irrelevant since it was just one that almost killed about 4-5 hydras and the additional 3 in the army were warped in when it was almost over. 8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150. It was a 25 minute game and IdrA had JUST gotten infestors for god sake and didn't even use them. People think IdrA should have won that when he had a higher economy an entire 25 minute game and all he had to show for it were 5 useless infestors, 2 more armor upgrades, and -1 attack upgrade? Fighting a maxed stalker army with cheaper, fewer hydralisks? Okay then. With his economy and MC's lack of sentries he probably would have been better off making 100 banelings and amoving them at the blink stalkers. No one is arguing that Idra should have won that battle. I agree that Idra should have lost that battle. What I am saying is that its just ridiculous that because of the 200 supply limit all the TIME BEFORE that final battle are just useless for being on 5 bases (up 2 bases) and not be able to go to 250 supply with a massive army and just A-move in with it. Show nested quote +
If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking.
Its not as bad as you make it out to be. Zergs need to make units to defend themselves from dying. Its probably the case that many Protoss are willingly letting the Zerg macro up a major drone advantage (let the zerg create 12 workers at a time) because they know that with a passive turtle style they can eventually take advantage of the 200 supply cap and kill the Zerg. IdrA plays a completely outdated style. He plays 3 hours a day. Day9 was yelling about If the supply cap is increased to 300 then Protoss won't have the luxury of just letting the Zerg get ahead and then count on the 200 cap to win. They'll have to play active to keep the food count comparable rather than play passive turtle style. In other words, increase the cap to 300 and Protoss players will start trying to prevent Zergs from getting easy 3rd/4th bases because now they won't have the 200 cap gimmick to rely on. You can't say for sure there is no way for Protoss to keep the food count close by playing actively because there isn't any incentive right now for the Protoss to try active play.
Shit I must have woken up back in February where people still thought roach/hydra/corruptor 200/200 a-move was relevant and the protoss deathball a-move was unstoppable. I'll return in a few months when this gets sorted out. IdrA was on roach/hydra/corruptor on five base including the gold 25 minutes into the game. He got infestors at like 23 minutes. I've seen broodlords off less econ in 15. This entire retarded roach/hydra/corruptor thing comes from IdrA. The zerg players who go with his arguments are usually diamond/masters zerg who are not pro-players and instead copy his style then whine when it doesn't work. This is the guy that practices 3 hours a day and left Korea because it's too hard.
Any attempt to take out the zerg's third is basically a timing attack or easily shut down stargate play that allows no additional pressure afterward, if he has prepared then you are either dead or way behind on tech.
The cap will never be increased to 300. This isn't even worth discussing, I can say that with 100% certainty. By the way MC does use active play, he always was moving around the map and picking off stray units and harassing with his phoenixes. IdrA is the one who sat back and turtled up until 200/200 before a-moving. He does that because it works for him. Now you want a 300 supply cap so IdrA can further sit back and do this then a-move with 300/300, cool story.
Plenty of zergs do well in ZvP. They DON'T TURTLE UP THEN A-MOVE AN INFERIOR COMPOSITION like IdrA. They do baneling drops, infestor/hive play, etc. The only protoss doing close to well are MC and Alicia (yes MC is doing well, he's not in a slump, losing 2-0 build order losses versus Alicia and Polt is not slumping) in Korea and I have never been impressed with Alicia's PvZ. MC's mechanics and decision making are at a level where he would be a top player regardless of race.
Your arguments apply to inferior players like IdrA who want their outdated styles to be relevant. In the highest level of competition in Korea ZvP is not a problem for zergs at all. The 300 supply cap is just another attempt for inferior zergs to change the game through whining. Foreigners listen to IdrA and think that what he is saying is valid, when all IdrA wants to do is make it extremely easy to play. He wants to be able to scout every single thing his opponent is doing so that he can drone freely whenever he wants. He wants to be able to place down faster spinecrawlers so that when he realizes he droned too greedily he can instantly hold it off. He wants almost every aspect of protoss nerfed. He only became pleased with ZvT and called it balanced once it reached a point in the metagame that Z is often considered OP by terran.
He did the exact same whining about his race in Brood War (terran) despite 4/5 bonjwas being from his race. The difference now is that even though he has left Korea and practice 1/3rd the time of many other pros, people still listen to him and take him seriously. He has some weird ass urge to always be a martyr, even his teammate Incontrol just sits there and makes silly faces when IdrA brings these thing sup.
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Heavenly yeah right and you are? What's you rating? Who are your practice partners?
sure man you know it all and i would believe in you if you were not a unknown guy who did nothing for this community.. i understand you don't like the guy or his attitude but please don't critise his choices when you obviously are not on his level or even near..
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On June 08 2011 22:24 shell wrote:
Heavenly yeah right and you are? What's you rating? Who are your practice partners?
sure man you know it all and i would believe in you if you were not a unknown guy who did nothing for this community.. i understand you don't like the guy or his attitude but please don't critise his choices when you obviously are not on his level or even near..
How in the hell does rating matter? Just because Idra is a great player doesn't always make him right. (latley he's just making himself look like a whiny bitch that blames the game for his losses) By this logic we should never criticize the American government because they are higher rated politicians. This whole appeal to authority fallacy is getting old.
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Realy liked this episode and it was fun to hear incontrole and idra looking back at there MLG. keep it up!
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On June 08 2011 17:48 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 17:40 ccherng wrote:On June 08 2011 16:58 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:
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They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines. Lol are you serious? He tried to make a point about a terran or zerg being down 5 to 3 mining bases against a protoss. Obviously the terran would lose in that scenario because they are equally strong on equal bases, their worker production capabilities are almost equal, and their units are cost-for-cost equal in large battle scenarios. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss would be significantly stronger than the terran. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss is SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the zerg because they are able to power out 12 drones in one round and make cheaper hatcheries. This means that their economy is easier to make bigger, so if your economy is lower than the race that makes one probe per base and their bases are more expensive, that means you are behind. Also, in case you didn't see in the last page: Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to. MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life. If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say. DTs were almost even irrelevant since it was just one that almost killed about 4-5 hydras and the additional 3 in the army were warped in when it was almost over. 8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150. It was a 25 minute game and IdrA had JUST gotten infestors for god sake and didn't even use them. People think IdrA should have won that when he had a higher economy an entire 25 minute game and all he had to show for it were 5 useless infestors, 2 more armor upgrades, and -1 attack upgrade? Fighting a maxed stalker army with cheaper, fewer hydralisks? Okay then. With his economy and MC's lack of sentries he probably would have been better off making 100 banelings and amoving them at the blink stalkers. No one is arguing that Idra should have won that battle. I agree that Idra should have lost that battle. What I am saying is that its just ridiculous that because of the 200 supply limit all the TIME BEFORE that final battle are just useless for being on 5 bases (up 2 bases) and not be able to go to 250 supply with a massive army and just A-move in with it.
If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking.
Its not as bad as you make it out to be. Zergs need to make units to defend themselves from dying. Its probably the case that many Protoss are willingly letting the Zerg macro up a major drone advantage (let the zerg create 12 workers at a time) because they know that with a passive turtle style they can eventually take advantage of the 200 supply cap and kill the Zerg. IdrA plays a completely outdated style. He plays 3 hours a day. Day9 was yelling about If the supply cap is increased to 300 then Protoss won't have the luxury of just letting the Zerg get ahead and then count on the 200 cap to win. They'll have to play active to keep the food count comparable rather than play passive turtle style. In other words, increase the cap to 300 and Protoss players will start trying to prevent Zergs from getting easy 3rd/4th bases because now they won't have the 200 cap gimmick to rely on. You can't say for sure there is no way for Protoss to keep the food count close by playing actively because there isn't any incentive right now for the Protoss to try active play. Shit I must have woken up back in February where people still thought roach/hydra/corruptor 200/200 a-move was relevant and the protoss deathball a-move was unstoppable. I'll return in a few months when this gets sorted out. IdrA was on roach/hydra/corruptor on five base including the gold 25 minutes into the game. He got infestors at like 23 minutes. I've seen broodlords off less econ in 15. This entire retarded roach/hydra/corruptor thing comes from IdrA. The zerg players who go with his arguments are usually diamond/masters zerg who are not pro-players and instead copy his style then whine when it doesn't work. This is the guy that practices 3 hours a day and left Korea because it's too hard. Any attempt to take out the zerg's third is basically a timing attack or easily shut down stargate play that allows no additional pressure afterward, if he has prepared then you are either dead or way behind on tech. The cap will never be increased to 300. This isn't even worth discussing, I can say that with 100% certainty. By the way MC does use active play, he always was moving around the map and picking off stray units and harassing with his phoenixes. IdrA is the one who sat back and turtled up until 200/200 before a-moving. He does that because it works for him. Now you want a 300 supply cap so IdrA can further sit back and do this then a-move with 300/300, cool story. Plenty of zergs do well in ZvP. They DON'T TURTLE UP THEN A-MOVE AN INFERIOR COMPOSITION like IdrA. They do baneling drops, infestor/hive play, etc. The only protoss doing close to well are MC and Alicia (yes MC is doing well, he's not in a slump, losing 2-0 build order losses versus Alicia and Polt is not slumping) in Korea and I have never been impressed with Alicia's PvZ. MC's mechanics and decision making are at a level where he would be a top player regardless of race. Your arguments apply to inferior players like IdrA who want their outdated styles to be relevant. In the highest level of competition in Korea ZvP is not a problem for zergs at all. The 300 supply cap is just another attempt for inferior zergs to change the game through whining. Foreigners listen to IdrA and think that what he is saying is valid, when all IdrA wants to do is make it extremely easy to play. He wants to be able to scout every single thing his opponent is doing so that he can drone freely whenever he wants. He wants to be able to place down faster spinecrawlers so that when he realizes he droned too greedily he can instantly hold it off. He wants almost every aspect of protoss nerfed. He only became pleased with ZvT and called it balanced once it reached a point in the metagame that Z is often considered OP by terran. He did the exact same whining about his race in Brood War (terran) despite 4/5 bonjwas being from his race. The difference now is that even though he has left Korea and practice 1/3rd the time of many other pros, people still listen to him and take him seriously. He has some weird ass urge to always be a martyr, even his teammate Incontrol just sits there and makes silly faces when IdrA brings these thing sup.
I'm not sure if you watched broodwar, but Ive seen two players not fight for 15-20 real life minutes in PvT and they were still equal economically, and they were not capped at 200/200 where one race has a Superior maxed army, can tech faster and upgrade faster. I also saw games where getting more than 3 bases actually mattered for more than just added tech units to your composition and upgrades.
We understand why idra lost, its simple, hydras are shitty and he had bad control compared to MCs amazing control, getting 5 bases is risky and damn near pointless in starcraft 2 because the supply cap makes it impossible to have an army.
I love how you say he "wants to be able to scout every single his opponent is doing" He wants it to get to a point that he can get enough information to not die to all ins based on a coin flip, just like in broodwar. Ever remember the 5 fact two base push in Broodwar? if protoss was always able to scout it, they won immediately OR they could beat the all in with just really good control. That's the thing about broodwar, a lot of the risk are not taken anymore, because you simply died if you took them. Ive seen jaedong lose instantly because instead of building the spinecrawlers to fight off the first marine medic push he built extra zerglings to try and crush it, flash had good control and crushed him. In SC2, you cant scout that he is taking those risks most of the time, or, if there is an all in at certain timing windows, you could either, win, die to the all in cause you couldn't get enough information, or he wasn't going for an all in and went for 1 rax expo. That's just one example, and is coin flippy, it can be dealt with to a degree.
The only situation that parallels that in broodwar that i can think of is fast nexus in PvT(the build idra bitched about the most)
Idra doesn't like coin flip scenarios, or scenarios where one person dies or gets a huge advantage where the other player can't get the information to punish, i think no one likes that, and those kind of situations are bad for a game, where just one of them, can decide the game. It not like a fighting game, where if you fuck that 3 way yomi, your just down some health, or knocked down, no, you lose the entire game if you fuck that up. Reading your opponent ideally shouldn't be the one thing that makes or breaks if you win or lose, but should be a factor in helping you win.
Securing the economic advantage in BW was extremely rewarded, and necessary at high level play. People didn't cap out 200/200 on 2 bases and take down 6 base zerg(we have all seen it) One of the few examples of that in BW at pro level was a i think a Best vs Flash game where flash was on 2 base the entire game, got a 200/200 3/3 mech army, and took down a seven base protoss, and that was an extremely mechanically difficult maneuver( he put 2 tanks at each of his expansions to take them out while controlling a maxed terran mech army. Also in that game, protoss didn't build enough arbiters when the pushout came, and had terrible control. Oh yeah, but that 200/200 3/3 on 2 base allowed enough the protoss enough time to get seven fully functioning bases. And with good control from protoss could have crushed Flash. Its not the same as 200/200 on 2 or 3 bases in SC2 where every single game zerg has to make sure that protoss doesn't get maxed and has to do a ton of risky drop play so protoss doesn't just attack move into his army roll it over and kill the zerg.
When someone secured a major economic advantage such as 5 base versus 3 base in broodwar they usually just win, even with poor control. Ive seen games on destination in BW where zerg where it was 3 base versus 5 base where the zerg donated hundreds of hydras over countless battles and was still even with toss despite the constant bad engagements. Then I watch sc2, and watch zerg try his heart out doing drops, multitasking, hurting the economy of the protoss. And then after all that, still loses to the protoss ball army.
its just that 6 base shouldn't lose to 3 base, that almost never happened in broodwar. If it was 6 base versus 3 base, you just hadn't left the game yet and were annoying the other player, in this game, the 3 base play is protoss get 200/200 and just kills the zerg with double the economy the he cant use cause the supply cap says no.
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On June 08 2011 23:10 DemonDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 22:24 shell wrote:
Heavenly yeah right and you are? What's you rating? Who are your practice partners?
sure man you know it all and i would believe in you if you were not a unknown guy who did nothing for this community.. i understand you don't like the guy or his attitude but please don't critise his choices when you obviously are not on his level or even near.. How in the hell does rating matter? Just because Idra is a great player doesn't always make him right. (latley he's just making himself look like a whiny bitch that blames the game for his losses) By this logic we should never criticize the American government because they are higher rated politicians. This whole appeal to authority fallacy is getting old.
It DOES mean you should respect and analyze their opinions, however.
And yes, when someone calls idra an "inferior player with an inferior composition" and instead of giving example of why this is true just says "the koreans are better hurr durr", their rating does matter or their opinion is bullshit.
His post history is also consistantly shitting on foreign players, idra especially, and saying players like Moon are awful.
Unless this guy is GM he really need to shut the fuck up or at least explain his superior strategies before shitting on pro gamers.
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its just that 6 base shouldn't lose to 3 base, that almost never happened in broodwar. If it was 6 base versus 3 base, you just hadn't left the game yet and were annoying the other player, in this game, the 3 base play is protoss get 200/200 and just kills the zerg with double the economy the he cant use cause the supply cap says no
That's right, it shouldn't.
He lost because he fucked up. No matter how you want to string it, he was in one of the best positions he could be as a Zerg, why he wasn't able to pull through had nothing to do with race balance, it had to do with him fucking up.
People are too focused at looking at the one fight, they should be looking at other things, things like creep spread, larva, saturation, tech, unit composition, missed opportunities, upgrades etc
IdrA shouldn't have lost, but he did. It generally is never as obvious as Zerg because there is no unit like the Colossus which people can centralize on, or any ability like Forcefield where they can look out for poor use, but it DOES happen and more importantly it DID happen in this case.
It was his game to lose, and he did.
MC had NO Storm, NO Colossus, NO armor upgrades, NO Archons, 2 Mining bases vs 5 Mining bases.
You _HAVE_ to fuck up to lose in that situation.
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Have to make hydra* :3
IdrA broke his own rule about making them
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On June 09 2011 01:06 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +its just that 6 base shouldn't lose to 3 base, that almost never happened in broodwar. If it was 6 base versus 3 base, you just hadn't left the game yet and were annoying the other player, in this game, the 3 base play is protoss get 200/200 and just kills the zerg with double the economy the he cant use cause the supply cap says no That's right, it shouldn't. He lost because he fucked up. No matter how you want to string it, he was in one of the best positions he could be as a Zerg, why he wasn't able to pull through had nothing to do with race balance, it had to do with him fucking up. People are too focused at looking at the one fight, they should be looking at other things, things like creep spread, larva, saturation, tech, unit composition, missed opportunities, upgrades etc IdrA shouldn't have lost, but he did. It generally is never as obvious as Zerg because there is no unit like the Colossus which people can centralize on, or any ability like Forcefield where they can look out for poor use, but it DOES happen and more importantly it DID happen in this case. It was his game to lose, and he did.
But if the game had say 50 more supply, idra could have just laughed his way through that entire forces with a massive army. He had the economy for it, the game just won't let him spend it and allow him to use his economic lead.
This happens all the time in lategame Sc2, and its so disappointing watching late game sc2 because expanding alot is pointless other than to transfer current workers so you keep the same economy. Ive seen so many games where zerg could have won if there was an additional 20 or so hydras or roaches in the game, it would have been a walk over. And this argument isn't exclusive to zerg, i think it affects all races adversely, it just affects zerg the most as they have terribly supply inefficient units. But i hate watching a late game PvT where terran can sack all there workers and use mules to create a bigger army, and just laugh right over the protoss if they don't sack all there potential future econ.
It's stuff like that that just makes me want to increase the supply cap so its more scalable with late game armies, and it allows people to get an advantage and use it.
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Dunno what Idra was talking about with professional sports not interviewing the loser. I can understand giving the player 15 minutes to calm down, but the NFL always interviews the losing coach and often interviews the losing players. Baseball is the same... its more local programming interviewing their own teams... but it's the same. Losing players get interviewed. It might be 10-15 minutes after the game, but it still happens.
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yay for updated OP... Thanks Wheat
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EPT
