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On June 09 2011 01:26 randplaty wrote:
Dunno what Idra was talking about with professional sports not interviewing the loser. I can understand giving the player 15 minutes to calm down, but the NFL always interviews the losing coach and often interviews the losing players. Baseball is the same... its more local programming interviewing their own teams... but it's the same. Losing players get interviewed. It might be 10-15 minutes after the game, but it still happens.
I think IdrA was just trying to say that you don't pound the winner the MOMENT they just lost. Every sport is different, but in a situation like that where you're emotions are still running crazy... I think IdrA just wanted a decompress moment before getting a camera in his face. I think it was a reasonable request.
I'm sure the Camera OP from MLG just wanted the instant reaction, hard to fault him for that... but put yourself in IdrA's shoes and I'm not sure any of us would want to be in that situation.
I've never seen a sporting event where some guy just dropped the game winning pass and a coverage person goes up to him while getting off the ground to ask him how he feels. There usually is some downtime before that takes place.
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6 bases vs 3 is a very common broodwar ZvP situation :o
In fact, all standard ZvP nowadays in broodwar start 4 bases zerg vs 2 bases P. (with P forge expand against Z fast expand, then Z takes a very fast 3rd at another natural, then quickly takes the main)
When I think about it, broodwar ZvP is not far from recent sc2 ZvP, storm drops and blink aside.
Haven't you see 6+ bases zergs losing to 3-4 bases 200/200 invincible templar archon reaver army in broodwar ? Like they throw an endless ultra, lurker, lings, hydra stream that doesn't even kill 20 protoss supply. Remember Kal vs ggameo on circuit breaker, I even found the vod for you <3 Most starcraft 2 players would think broodwar is imbalanced after watching this game :D
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/57826_ggaemo_vs_Kal/vod (this game is awesome btw)
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On June 09 2011 01:35 djWHEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:26 randplaty wrote:
Dunno what Idra was talking about with professional sports not interviewing the loser. I can understand giving the player 15 minutes to calm down, but the NFL always interviews the losing coach and often interviews the losing players. Baseball is the same... its more local programming interviewing their own teams... but it's the same. Losing players get interviewed. It might be 10-15 minutes after the game, but it still happens. I think IdrA was just trying to say that you don't pound the winner the MOMENT they just lost. Every sport is different, but in a situation like that where you're emotions are still running crazy... I think IdrA just wanted a decompress moment before getting a camera in his face. I think it was a reasonable request. I'm sure the Camera OP from MLG just wanted the instant reaction, hard to fault him for that... but put yourself in IdrA's shoes and I'm not sure any of us would want to be in that situation. I've never seen a sporting event where some guy just dropped the game winning pass and a coverage person goes up to him while getting off the ground to ask him how he feels. There usually is some downtime before that takes place.
Yeah I agree... give them some time to calm down. Then interview them.
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But if the game had say 50 more supply, idra could have just laughed his way through that entire forces with a massive army. He had the economy for it, the game just won't let him spend it and allow him to use his economic lead.
And he wasn't able to use this lead in Metalopalis game? He managed to get himself into a position that was EVEN better on the game with TestBug, not only did he take a fast third and stop Voidray/Phoenix from denying it, it was also ended up being a GOLD base then he took a forth base a few minutes later.
Starcraft has significantly greater depth than just economy. Just because you have 5bases to 2bases does not mean you deserve to rofl over your opponent with whatever you managed to throw together. You have to deal with whatever that is thrown at you, you have to make the right decisions -- you have to outplay your opponent.
To say that he couldn't use his economic lead is a horrendous lie, he couldn't have got himself into a better position than he did that game--MC backed himself into Rock and a hard place, he took his third 15mins into the game, he couldn't take his 4th at all....
If this happened to any other player then they would have their game criticized, looked over, people would try to figure out what actually went wrong.
Seriously, this never happens when NesTea, MVP or MC loses. However when it is IdrA that losses its ALWAYS something to do with Balance, Coinfliping or some game mechanic that is some how designed to spite him. The worst part of this is he has managed to get a lot of people to buy this bullshit.
People need to stop treating him as if he is infallible because the fact of the matter is: he DOES get outplayed, he does play poorly and just like every other human being, he does lose games he clearly shouldn't have because of his own mistakes.
But for whatever reason people feel the need to completely ignore all that and bring up discussions of game balance and game play mechanics using his games as evidence for whatever they are arguing as if the game is flawed and is the reason he lost when it is completely the opposite.
The game isn't to blame, HE is.
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In fact, just watch the idra replay. You'll see MC build his 3rd (which is far on this map) without canon, with his army defending his main, totally uncontested. Any other zerg would have instantly 20 lings to prevent the 3rd building, but idra did nothing. I was so angry ><
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IdrA has a point. In professional sports (lets take basketball for example) they only interview a member of the winning team immediately after the game.
It is not until the press conference (that is after they players have had a chance to calm down, take a shower and get changed) that the losers are interviewed.
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On June 09 2011 01:59 DoomsVille wrote:
IdrA has a point. In professional sports (lets take basketball for example) they only interview a member of the winning team immediately after the game.
It is not until the press conference (that is after they players have had a chance to calm down, take a shower and get changed) that the losers are interviewed.
yeah. Most progamers are awkward enough (in interviews I mean, and it's understandable) already not to add someone who jump on them just after their match :"So, you got roflstomped 2-0, how do you feel ?" Like you said, in most sports they itw the winner on the fly, but the loser get itwed only after his head have cooled.
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On June 09 2011 01:38 MrCon wrote:6 bases vs 3 is a very common broodwar ZvP situation :o In fact, all standard ZvP nowadays in broodwar start 4 bases zerg vs 2 bases P. (with P forge expand against Z fast expand, then Z takes a very fast 3rd at another natural, then quickly takes the main) When I think about it, broodwar ZvP is not far from recent sc2 ZvP, storm drops and blink aside. Haven't you see 6+ bases zergs losing to 3-4 bases 200/200 invincible templar archon reaver army in broodwar ? Like they throw an endless ultra, lurker, lings, hydra stream that doesn't even kill 20 protoss supply. Remember Kal vs ggameo on circuit breaker, I even found the vod for you <3 Most starcraft 2 players would think broodwar is imbalanced after watching this game :D http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/57826_ggaemo_vs_Kal/vod (this game is awesome btw)
that has happened only a couple of times in pro broodwar and is INCREDIBLY difficult to get to that point. Ive seen Jaedong lose to it before, and there was literally nothing he could do. But it requires so much more money, time, and tech investment compared to the SC2 equivalent. the 5 base zerg losing to the 2 base protoss is extremely common.
Yes I realize that Idra should have sat back and teched up to secure his advantage, but also, the option of overwhelming protoss is gone because the supply cap just wont let you, also if he sits back, and techs up, the protoss is all of the sudden back in the game because he can secure another expansion, tech up, and get upgrades also.
Yes, I'm aware that MC played better, it's more that I'm just bitching because I don't like the fact that supply is the limiting factor in making the games go farther(the non mirrors break down except for ZvT in very late game, and even then, the mule mechanic will break that)
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One thing I could think of that would be a good "balance" change would be to maps to have only one geyser/base (except in the mains, as the early game is balanced around 6 workers on gas).
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I would like to get a dollar, every time some says "viable" haha...
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On June 08 2011 17:48 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 17:40 ccherng wrote:On June 08 2011 16:58 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:
[quote]
They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines. Lol are you serious? He tried to make a point about a terran or zerg being down 5 to 3 mining bases against a protoss. Obviously the terran would lose in that scenario because they are equally strong on equal bases, their worker production capabilities are almost equal, and their units are cost-for-cost equal in large battle scenarios. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss would be significantly stronger than the terran. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss is SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the zerg because they are able to power out 12 drones in one round and make cheaper hatcheries. This means that their economy is easier to make bigger, so if your economy is lower than the race that makes one probe per base and their bases are more expensive, that means you are behind. Also, in case you didn't see in the last page: Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to. MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life. If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say. DTs were almost even irrelevant since it was just one that almost killed about 4-5 hydras and the additional 3 in the army were warped in when it was almost over. 8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150. It was a 25 minute game and IdrA had JUST gotten infestors for god sake and didn't even use them. People think IdrA should have won that when he had a higher economy an entire 25 minute game and all he had to show for it were 5 useless infestors, 2 more armor upgrades, and -1 attack upgrade? Fighting a maxed stalker army with cheaper, fewer hydralisks? Okay then. With his economy and MC's lack of sentries he probably would have been better off making 100 banelings and amoving them at the blink stalkers. No one is arguing that Idra should have won that battle. I agree that Idra should have lost that battle. What I am saying is that its just ridiculous that because of the 200 supply limit all the TIME BEFORE that final battle are just useless for being on 5 bases (up 2 bases) and not be able to go to 250 supply with a massive army and just A-move in with it.
If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking.
Its not as bad as you make it out to be. Zergs need to make units to defend themselves from dying. Its probably the case that many Protoss are willingly letting the Zerg macro up a major drone advantage (let the zerg create 12 workers at a time) because they know that with a passive turtle style they can eventually take advantage of the 200 supply cap and kill the Zerg. IdrA plays a completely outdated style. He plays 3 hours a day. Day9 was yelling about If the supply cap is increased to 300 then Protoss won't have the luxury of just letting the Zerg get ahead and then count on the 200 cap to win. They'll have to play active to keep the food count comparable rather than play passive turtle style. In other words, increase the cap to 300 and Protoss players will start trying to prevent Zergs from getting easy 3rd/4th bases because now they won't have the 200 cap gimmick to rely on. You can't say for sure there is no way for Protoss to keep the food count close by playing actively because there isn't any incentive right now for the Protoss to try active play. Shit I must have woken up back in February where people still thought roach/hydra/corruptor 200/200 a-move was relevant and the protoss deathball a-move was unstoppable. I'll return in a few months when this gets sorted out. IdrA was on roach/hydra/corruptor on five base including the gold 25 minutes into the game. He got infestors at like 23 minutes. I've seen broodlords off less econ in 15. This entire retarded roach/hydra/corruptor thing comes from IdrA. The zerg players who go with his arguments are usually diamond/masters zerg who are not pro-players and instead copy his style then whine when it doesn't work. This is the guy that practices 3 hours a day and left Korea because it's too hard.
Any attempt to take out the zerg's third is basically a timing attack or easily shut down stargate play that allows no additional pressure afterward, if he has prepared then you are either dead or way behind on tech.
Or the Protoss could not wait really really late to take his own 3rd expo. A really really late 3rd expo works because of the 200 food cap. Its a very conservative and safe move by the Protoss but still a winning move.
The cap will never be increased to 300. This isn't even worth discussing, I can say that with 100% certainty.
Starcraft 2 is going to be around for several years. The power of hardware even just 2 years from now is going to blow away anything we have now. Hardware could eventually make 300 easy to handle.
By the way MC does use active play, he always was moving around the map and picking off stray units and harassing with his phoenixes. IdrA is the one who sat back and turtled up until 200/200 before a-moving. He does that because it works for him. Now you want a 300 supply cap so IdrA can further sit back and do this then a-move with 300/300, cool story.
Using phoenixes is harassment.
Plenty of zergs do well in ZvP. They DON'T TURTLE UP THEN A-MOVE AN INFERIOR COMPOSITION like IdrA. They do baneling drops, infestor/hive play, etc. The only protoss doing close to well are MC and Alicia (yes MC is doing well, he's not in a slump, losing 2-0 build order losses versus Alicia and Polt is not slumping) in Korea and I have never been impressed with Alicia's PvZ. MC's mechanics and decision making are at a level where he would be a top player regardless of race.
Your arguments apply to inferior players like IdrA who want their outdated styles to be relevant. In the highest level of competition in Korea ZvP is not a problem for zergs at all. The 300 supply cap is just another attempt for inferior zergs to change the game through whining. Foreigners listen to IdrA and think that what he is saying is valid, when all IdrA wants to do is make it extremely easy to play. He wants to be able to scout every single thing his opponent is doing so that he can drone freely whenever he wants. He wants to be able to place down faster spinecrawlers so that when he realizes he droned too greedily he can instantly hold it off. He wants almost every aspect of protoss nerfed. He only became pleased with ZvT and called it balanced once it reached a point in the metagame that Z is often considered OP by terran.
Whining is asking for marine stim to be nerfed, tanks to be nerfed, colossus to be nerfed, void ray to be nerfed, force field to be nerfed, hydras to be buffed, ultralisk to be buffed, brood lords to be buffed. Asking for 300 supply cap for zerg AND all other races is not whining.
He did the exact same whining about his race in Brood War (terran) despite 4/5 bonjwas being from his race. The difference now is that even though he has left Korea and practice 1/3rd the time of many other pros, people still listen to him and take him seriously. He has some weird ass urge to always be a martyr, even his teammate Incontrol just sits there and makes silly faces when IdrA brings these thing sup.
Ok you hate Idra and zerg players. I play Terran on ladder.
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On June 09 2011 01:26 randplaty wrote:
Dunno what Idra was talking about with professional sports not interviewing the loser. I can understand giving the player 15 minutes to calm down, but the NFL always interviews the losing coach and often interviews the losing players. Baseball is the same... its more local programming interviewing their own teams... but it's the same. Losing players get interviewed. It might be 10-15 minutes after the game, but it still happens.
That's completely irrelevant, those are team sports where it's much less personal than compared to Starcraft. Do you ever see people getting in tennis players' face in singles after they've just lost an important match? Please think about it more logically...
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This is easily my favourite StarCraft show. djWheat, you're awesome!
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On June 12 2011 10:20 soapingwet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:26 randplaty wrote:
Dunno what Idra was talking about with professional sports not interviewing the loser. I can understand giving the player 15 minutes to calm down, but the NFL always interviews the losing coach and often interviews the losing players. Baseball is the same... its more local programming interviewing their own teams... but it's the same. Losing players get interviewed. It might be 10-15 minutes after the game, but it still happens. That's completely irrelevant, those are team sports where it's much less personal than compared to Starcraft. Do you ever see people getting in tennis players' face in singles after they've just lost an important match? Please think about it more logically...
I don't know about about other countries, but in Sweden, we always interview the loser after the game, as well as the winner. This is true for both team sports and individual ones. Especially if the person/team is representing Sweden in an international competition. If someone does not want to be interviewed, it's always accepted, but I don't feel like that's common. As long as the interviewer has a sympathetic way of asking, it's not an issue.
After all, we pay their salaries.
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That's completely irrelevant, those are team sports where it's much less personal than compared to Starcraft. Do you ever see people getting in tennis players' face in singles after they've just lost an important match? Please think about it more logically...
Losers are often interviewed in individual sports and saying it is less personal to players because they are on a team in not accurate, it may be even more personal to the players that performed poorly since they let not just themselves down but the team as well. That said, DJWheat is 100% right about the cooling down period, NOBODY interviews the loser the moment the game ends, and certainly you would never see a reporter rush over to the player who missed the game winning shot, that would be regarded as extremely unprofessional.
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I now have 2 wicked podcasts to dl every week!
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is there going to be a show this week?
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On June 15 2011 07:57 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
is there going to be a show this week?
yeah its on the TL calendar, starts in a minute :D
There will probably be a bit of delay as there always seems to be :p
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i love wheats shows, esport wouldnt be the same without him <3
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On June 08 2011 17:48 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 17:40 ccherng wrote:On June 08 2011 16:58 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 16:20 Clog wrote:On June 08 2011 15:54 Heavenly wrote:On June 08 2011 10:30 GwSC wrote:On June 08 2011 10:17 rycho wrote:On June 08 2011 10:09 Mailing wrote:On June 08 2011 09:59 StUfF wrote:On June 08 2011 09:46 flodeskum wrote:
[quote]
They were both maxed, but MC had a lot more army value. And Idra did have 9 or 10 corruptors floating around. Idra was up two bases but failed to convert that to any reasonable advantage. -- Subpar unit composition. Hydra/Corruptor/Infestors vs Blink Stalker/DT -- Worse tech. No Hive tech -- Upgrades were pretty even. 3/0 vs 2/2. -- Army value/size was in MC's favour. -- Failure to remax/stall out for remax -- Failure to defend harass -- Failure to micro infestors/overseers/corruptors. It was not "easy" for MC to come back. Idra played a very terrible game and pretty much deserved to lose that. There is no better unit composition than hydra/infestor vs blink stalkers unless you throw some zerglings in. Hive tech was pointless. MC was on T1 tech essentially, besides the 3-0 upgrade, but that's trivial 2-2 is far better than 3-0 in a hydra vs stalker scenario IdrA was maxed, MC was like 170-180, army values were similar. He remaxed, but the stalkers were pushing closer and picking off small groups of units before they could be balled again The harass didn't matter, he lost his whole hydra infestor army and so many stalkers were left over that mc was going to push into his production and hatcheries. He got fungals off, his overseer got sniped, and corruption was insignificant with only 7 corruptors. it would be like a protoss player running out into the middle of the map and losing a bunch of units to 4 cloaked banshees because he didn't make an observer and then saying pvt is unfair because terrans can make a comeback if they do that If you can find me a game between top level players where a Terran is able to come back from 2+ bases down to a Protoss because of 4 cloaked banshees then by all means lets analyze that. A terran or zerg who is down that many mining bases to a protoss is never going to come back, crush the protoss army and win like MC was able to against Idra. If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking. If you find a zerg hatching marines and marauders from his bases please report him for hacking. What are you talking about here? You are pointing out very obvious racial differences that everyone already knows. He is discussing ease of one race to overcome a large economic deficit with a few select units. Address the point; you don't need to tell us hatcheries cost 300 minerals and that zerg can't make marines. Lol are you serious? He tried to make a point about a terran or zerg being down 5 to 3 mining bases against a protoss. Obviously the terran would lose in that scenario because they are equally strong on equal bases, their worker production capabilities are almost equal, and their units are cost-for-cost equal in large battle scenarios. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss would be significantly stronger than the terran. Having 2 more bases means that the protoss is SIGNIFICANTLY, SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of the zerg because they are able to power out 12 drones in one round and make cheaper hatcheries. This means that their economy is easier to make bigger, so if your economy is lower than the race that makes one probe per base and their bases are more expensive, that means you are behind. Also, in case you didn't see in the last page: Just watched the replay. IdrA was getting around 500/300 more income per minute but he was also down at least 5000-7000 in the resources lost tabs the entire time as MC went around picking off queens and everything he could find. The supply count was always very close, wasn't even the like 200 zerg army versus 140 protoss army exchanges that you are used to. MC was maxed at 197 versus 198 when the battle occured. 77 drones versus 62 probes. 55 stalkers (57 but 2 were away) and 1 dt versus 43 hydras and 5 infestors. Army values 8100/3300 (accounting for the loss of the 2 dts off sniping drones and 2 stalkers not involved) versus 6400/3900.The infestors were in the back and did not get off any fungal growths until the fight was over and MC blinked forward to finish off his army. Since the infestors were not involved that means the army value was cut by 500/750 to become 5900/3150. The corruptors obviously did nothing as well so 10 corruptors--each 150/100. Remove an additional 1500 minerals and 1000 gas to make it 4400/2150. Before that MC was blink microing to preserve stalkers so his losses were minimal. DT was hitting each hydra once to bring it down to one or two stalker shots of life. If you think MC should not have clearly won that battle I don't know what to say. DTs were almost even irrelevant since it was just one that almost killed about 4-5 hydras and the additional 3 in the army were warped in when it was almost over. 8100/3300 army versus 4400/2150. It was a 25 minute game and IdrA had JUST gotten infestors for god sake and didn't even use them. People think IdrA should have won that when he had a higher economy an entire 25 minute game and all he had to show for it were 5 useless infestors, 2 more armor upgrades, and -1 attack upgrade? Fighting a maxed stalker army with cheaper, fewer hydralisks? Okay then. With his economy and MC's lack of sentries he probably would have been better off making 100 banelings and amoving them at the blink stalkers. No one is arguing that Idra should have won that battle. I agree that Idra should have lost that battle. What I am saying is that its just ridiculous that because of the 200 supply limit all the TIME BEFORE that final battle are just useless for being on 5 bases (up 2 bases) and not be able to go to 250 supply with a massive army and just A-move in with it.
If you are able to find me a game where a top level terran is able to create command centers for 300 minerals and create 12 workers at a time please report him for hacking.
Its not as bad as you make it out to be. Zergs need to make units to defend themselves from dying. Its probably the case that many Protoss are willingly letting the Zerg macro up a major drone advantage (let the zerg create 12 workers at a time) because they know that with a passive turtle style they can eventually take advantage of the 200 supply cap and kill the Zerg. IdrA plays a completely outdated style. He plays 3 hours a day. Day9 was yelling about If the supply cap is increased to 300 then Protoss won't have the luxury of just letting the Zerg get ahead and then count on the 200 cap to win. They'll have to play active to keep the food count comparable rather than play passive turtle style. In other words, increase the cap to 300 and Protoss players will start trying to prevent Zergs from getting easy 3rd/4th bases because now they won't have the 200 cap gimmick to rely on. You can't say for sure there is no way for Protoss to keep the food count close by playing actively because there isn't any incentive right now for the Protoss to try active play. Shit I must have woken up back in February where people still thought roach/hydra/corruptor 200/200 a-move was relevant and the protoss deathball a-move was unstoppable. I'll return in a few months when this gets sorted out. IdrA was on roach/hydra/corruptor on five base including the gold 25 minutes into the game. He got infestors at like 23 minutes. I've seen broodlords off less econ in 15. This entire retarded roach/hydra/corruptor thing comes from IdrA. The zerg players who go with his arguments are usually diamond/masters zerg who are not pro-players and instead copy his style then whine when it doesn't work. This is the guy that practices 3 hours a day and left Korea because it's too hard. Any attempt to take out the zerg's third is basically a timing attack or easily shut down stargate play that allows no additional pressure afterward, if he has prepared then you are either dead or way behind on tech. The cap will never be increased to 300. This isn't even worth discussing, I can say that with 100% certainty. By the way MC does use active play, he always was moving around the map and picking off stray units and harassing with his phoenixes. IdrA is the one who sat back and turtled up until 200/200 before a-moving. He does that because it works for him. Now you want a 300 supply cap so IdrA can further sit back and do this then a-move with 300/300, cool story. Plenty of zergs do well in ZvP. They DON'T TURTLE UP THEN A-MOVE AN INFERIOR COMPOSITION like IdrA. They do baneling drops, infestor/hive play, etc. The only protoss doing close to well are MC and Alicia (yes MC is doing well, he's not in a slump, losing 2-0 build order losses versus Alicia and Polt is not slumping) in Korea and I have never been impressed with Alicia's PvZ. MC's mechanics and decision making are at a level where he would be a top player regardless of race. Your arguments apply to inferior players like IdrA who want their outdated styles to be relevant. In the highest level of competition in Korea ZvP is not a problem for zergs at all. The 300 supply cap is just another attempt for inferior zergs to change the game through whining. Foreigners listen to IdrA and think that what he is saying is valid, when all IdrA wants to do is make it extremely easy to play. He wants to be able to scout every single thing his opponent is doing so that he can drone freely whenever he wants. He wants to be able to place down faster spinecrawlers so that when he realizes he droned too greedily he can instantly hold it off. He wants almost every aspect of protoss nerfed. He only became pleased with ZvT and called it balanced once it reached a point in the metagame that Z is often considered OP by terran. He did the exact same whining about his race in Brood War (terran) despite 4/5 bonjwas being from his race. The difference now is that even though he has left Korea and practice 1/3rd the time of many other pros, people still listen to him and take him seriously. He has some weird ass urge to always be a martyr, even his teammate Incontrol just sits there and makes silly faces when IdrA brings these thing sup.
Chill man.........
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