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On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote:
im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded.
lol its not bad
i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time
maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions
u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line
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At this point, as a Terran player I don't find fungal to be too strong. I have been using ghosts since the influx of infestors from the fungal buff and feel that the emp vs fungal control is good for the match up.
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On April 27 2011 06:11 hitman133 wrote:I think Infestor is too strong, like it destroy the protoss army faster than ever seen before, just add a couple banelings and it's unstoppable, Protoss is not dare to move out to attack, leave Zerg free to expand and tech up to Ultra. Zerg qq seem effective now 
I heard feedback is pretty decent against infestors, force fields are decent against banelings aswell.
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I think Patch 1.3.3 should also have a buff on Ghost's snipe. That may allow ghosts to be more usefull against Z so it doesnt make all the gas a sunk cost...
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I'm yet to see a pro completely own ZvT or ZvP with infestors. I've seen plenty of pros try; most have been relatively unsuccessful, and others have managed a win, but not a convincing one.
I don't really see any evidence of them being "imbalanced". Protoss are using forcefields and feedback, and Terran have ghosts.
They're slow and fragile and armoured, so I don't think anyone is going to have a REALLY hard time dealing with them.
Edit:
@ Raging Dubstep guy: Dude, go ghosts? I don't see how anyone can say Infestors break TvZ, when you can so easily just go Ghosts and EMP them.
Deal with Infestors the same way you deal with Psy-storm?
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I believe this statement needs to be made and said:
All zergs have a valid point that Terran CAN outbeat infestors with superior unit control and skill. That is why GSL Z's arent totally dominating either race quite yet.
But, is that really what blizzard and SC2 community wants? If u force a terran to only be able to win (and dominate in some's opinions) by being way superior in mechanics.. What's there to be left with Diamond and master's league people?
Some people may just not have fast hands and are better at macro or strategy. This pretty much kills the game for them
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There are no doubt arguments I've missed, but my point is I can't see anywhere that the Infestor is broken and yet it's one of the most common complaints I hear about Zerg on any site. Since 1.3 there has been an increase in Infestor play I believe but it's hardly been game breaking, more it just feels like Zerg players have a new option. To an extent it even makes Hive tech more viable as Infestation Pit's can actually be built for Infestor play now instead of merely as a stepping stone. So to repeat my earlier question, do the majority of people still feel that Fungal Growth needs tweaking after the time it's been in play, and if so why, and how?
the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds
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On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote:
My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
Thank god for that (you could use ensnare/plague to do that in BW too, so they better not take it out).
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the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds
This would be a major nerf to FG, because right now if you have the energy, you can chain FG and be dealing constant dps in addition to the immobilization. If the damage stopped after 4 seconds but the immobilization persisted, you couldn't keep up the dps indefinitely by chaining FGs.
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if you remove KA, you should remove pathogen glands and the ghost energy upgrade, and the raven energy upgrade. to make it all balanced
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So I've been playing with infestors a LOT, almost every time i get lair tech I say, what can i get? Mutas? Hydras? or Infestors? Out of those 3 infestors always seem to have the most opportunity attached to them. However, there are some things I've been noticing.
First let me talk about ZvT. My Terran partner has been losing to me a lot because I've been going ling/infestor or sometimes roach/infestor and have been destroying him. However lately, he's been going FE followed by a mech heavy build, with 3 factories, 1 with reactor 2 with techs making blue flame hellions first. He constantly makes blue flame hellions and the thing about infestor builds is that it requires a lot of drones, you need a high economy to support it. Since I've been beating him, he has been opening hellion every game or utilizing blue flame hellions a bit later and has now evened the score. The hellion harass needs to be countered with roaches and queens which delays your infestors, and if he can get some drone kills, then it's really putting you behind. If he can secure some drone kills, then he is going to do a 2 base timing which becomes almost unreasonable to stop before infestors as all you have are lings, roaches and queens and a recently damaged economy, it's not easy to build an army with low drones or redrone then build an army which will be very small in comparison to his.
Anyways so like I said, I've been noticing this 2 base zerg style where you turtle till you get infestors, is countered by harass strategies, this is nothing new. Harassing zerg? unheard of right? Well I honestly don't see a lot of terrans going for harass anymore on ladder (700 pt Master here) they just go for timing pushes which get crushed because I have infestors out by then. My partner, as I said has been going mech heavy and there are two ways which require two different responses by zerg. There is the hellion siege tank, where siege tanks are very split up, infestors are pretty weak in this situation, especially if he is building turrets to stop burrow harass. NP can work here, but it's risky, My best response has been getting roaches with overlord speed/drop and skipping infestors. Then there is the other mech, which I think is even more scary which is hellion/thor because that build relies on upgrades and you can't get drop, if you get drop thats a big mistake, you need NP.
Now ZvP. Infestors are REALLY strong in this match up, ling/infestor is almost like the standard I'd say as far as my winning percentages go using this build (i have another really solid build that goes muta/ling without infestors). I generally go for a 2 base timing push where I have like 4 infestors with fungals and my job is to thin out the death ball, targeting sentries specifically. I also get a spire at this time and a 3rd base and I transition into 2/2 upgraded lings with mutalisks, I can usually end the game right there, depends on how well my infestors did. I dunno if infestors are OP though, because they require a lot of gas, are fragile, and take extra damage to the units that counter them best, blink stalkers. I've had trouble where the toss sees my infestation pit and gets blink stalkers so he can blink ahead and kill my infestors, if I lose my infestors that's gg, it's pretty unrecoverable from there.
Anyways, just my observations. I don't think infestors are OP against Terran, they are VERY strong against bio and Air style terran but have weaknesses against Mech. With 1.3.3 and ghosts being reduced in gas cost, I think mech/ghost play will become the new standard in TvZ. ZvP I'm not sure what will change, I think we may see more 4 gate aggression or just more aggression early on because the current 3 gate expand falls pretty badly to 2 base infestor play, just 3 fungals renders all their sentries dead which is a much bigger investment for the protoss.
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I just don't really feel comfortable with zerg suddenly getting their own storm. Protoss still has storm (and if you don't think it's still amazing, you're kidding yourself)
And we have EMP. Which only works against protoss. And it keeps getting worse.
Give me back a usable hunter seeker missile, and zerg can have their hilariously strong fungals. I don't even make giant marine balls anymore, and haven't really struggled in that regard.
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On April 27 2011 08:31 mcleod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote:
im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded. lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line
I totally get where T is coming from. I dont play Terran, but honestly the onus in terms of demanding micro and army control has always been on the terran. Between hellion control, marine splits, and hopping seige tanks terran has it very tough already in this matchup.
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Does anyone have any links or something too a tournament where a good zerg vs a good terran/protoss used infestors and won? I mean I watch a lot of sc2 and I rarely see a top zerg player start out infestor (i see transition thats what I do too).
Only times I have seen so far infestors are ladder games watching sen/haypro on the korean server and the koreans once they got 3 bases were getting ghosts too EMP infestors.
The pvz counter I feel would be immortal/stalker/zealot/sentry with some HT's just for feedback. but thats assuming their going roach/infestor. Idk wish I could read top zergs minds into why they aren't starting out infestor. I know I personally don't do it as I just don't' like it, I don't feel its as strong as people think except the ones that clump alot of units and don't spread their units at all.
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On April 27 2011 08:59 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 08:31 mcleod wrote:On April 27 2011 08:23 DubsteP wrote:
im quiting 1v1 for ever untill they fix TvZ all i get is mass infestor and i get roflpwnt by banes its fucking retarded, if i go bio, its infestor bane. if i go mech, its infestor roach. every TvZ i get is automatic loss, i have watched dozens of gosu replays in the GSL and top 200 level play, i have received 4 hours of coaching from top 200 players focusing on TvZ match up, nothing helps. TvZ is L for T. i roflstomp master protoss and terran players in the ladder, but i lose to scrub zerg diamond players, what the fuck does that say, its so retarded. lol its not bad i dont think terrans can really complain, considering how long zerg has been having a tough time maybe now its our turn to change and learn new compositions u need to go ghosts, pretty much bottom line I totally get where T is coming from. I dont play Terran, but honestly the onus in terms of demanding micro and army control has always been on the terran. Between hellion control, marine splits, and hopping seige tanks terran has it very tough already in this matchup.
Wait, what?
Marines standing around with 0 control what-so-ever will kill Mutalisks 1-for-2. If you have enough sense to stim, it's basically 1-for-1.
Siege tanks require no micro what-so-ever, against the standard ling/bling/muta, every shot is a good shot. You are either taking out clumps of lings or clumps of banes, either one is totally worth-while and requires 0 micro.
Marines beat lings 1-to-1 straight up, and do much better with any applied micro at all, add to that, with stim + medivacs are basically unkillable without banes or fungals, if you have enough Marines, they eventually kill stuff so fast that banelings can't ever even get in range.
Even when it comes to engagements like banshees vs queens, banshees can stack, move faster, and actually have the option of running away from a losing engagement, unlike queens.
I'm not going to be as ignorant as you and claim that the burden of micro is on the Zerg player, but the benefits of micro are vastly different when you compare the two.
Zerg micros his units so they are somewhat effective against 1a Terrans.
Terran micros his units so he can make engagements unwinnable for Zerg.
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On April 27 2011 08:52 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +the 4 second stun does pretty much nothing. I wish that fungal stuns 8 seconds, except dealing damage only in the first 4 seconds This would be a major nerf to FG, because right now if you have the energy, you can chain FG and be dealing constant dps in addition to the immobilization. If the damage stopped after 4 seconds but the immobilization persisted, you couldn't keep up the dps indefinitely by chaining FGs. Of course you could. A new fungal resets the old one, so the damage would start again.
But then fungal would be ridiculously overpowered. A better compromise would be to deal damage for 4 secs, but slow down for 8 secs, similar to concussive shell. Then they have to figure out if it works vs massive units or not. It probably shouldn't, there's NP for them.
But then again, this kind of speculation is pointless. Blizzard are already many steps ahead; the expansion should be open for testing soon.
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I just test it, Infestor take only 4 FG to kill a stalker + 3/3/3 Now fuck you Blizz.
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I like it it makes Terran the harder race to play where it should be since BW days. If you don't like it switch race. Its so easy to differentiate a high level terran player from a lower level that its ridiculous which makes it so much more enjoying to be able to have better unit control.
@ Jermstuddog
You are so biased and have been fed the same bull crap the zerg community has been feeding you since beta. Saying Terran is 1a is ridiculously stupid and just makes you sound like a bronze scrub who can't beat a 3 rax build.
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On April 27 2011 09:39 hitman133 wrote:I just test it, Infestor take only 4 FG to kill a stalker + 3/3/3 Now fuck you Blizz.
The kill the infestors before you get 4 chain fungaled?..
You have blink, 9 range colossus, and 9 range feedback, it's not difficult.
Also understand that 4 fungals have to kill at least 7 stalkers to be cost effective.
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On April 27 2011 08:33 .Enigma. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 06:11 hitman133 wrote:I think Infestor is too strong, like it destroy the protoss army faster than ever seen before, just add a couple banelings and it's unstoppable, Protoss is not dare to move out to attack, leave Zerg free to expand and tech up to Ultra. Zerg qq seem effective now I heard feedback is pretty decent against infestors, force fields are decent against banelings aswell.
Hello, HTs tech come out so late after infestor, and FFs are so bad in wide open area, and a small choke, 1 mis FF cost you the game. And Zerg complains that all Protoss have do is FF, they say FF is so easy and noobish to do.
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EPT
