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On April 27 2011 03:08 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 01:44 LightWireEX wrote:
Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game. yeah, i feel like infestors aren't that good zvp, can be good zvt, but make zvz even worse than it used to be, especially since 2 base turtling zerg with infestors can beat a zerg with better macro until hive tech
Uhm. What? You don't have to clump up all your units you know.
And technically if you have better macro, doesn't that imply you have more infestors so you can NP for the win? And finally, Infestors aren't that far from hive tech, really. Ultras are like the hardest of all hard counters to infestors.
Finally, the idea that ZvZ has a "slow, powerful army" against faster, weaker armies isn't a bad thing. It offers more varied strategies.
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On April 27 2011 03:29 Sv1 wrote:
For starters, I think Idra is and always will be a terrible spokesperson for Zerg. While there's no doubt of his skill, his relcalcitrance to trying anything creative or new in my opinion speaks worlds about his view and grasp of the game as a whole. Especially since he himself says they are strong vs ZvP yet didn't build them in his most recent ragequit match (TSL or NASL, can't recall exactly). There are far more Zerg players, or even Terran/Toss players who I would go to first for their opinion on the infestor before Idra. But this isn't about him, it's about the infestors.
For you to look at whether the infestor can kill units outright based on the damage it does to small fodder units, for example the marines you stated, is a poor analysis of the unit. The infestor, like all other casters are meant to be supplemental in addition to the army. If you need a second fungal to kill units, that means your macro everywhere else has slipped and you have no army that SHOULD be able to clean up (as all the other caster units function). It would seem to me no doubt that you are a protoss player feeling the spurn of infestors.
One of the points about infestors is that, in most matchups Zerg has a relatively low gas usage (as it is they get their geysers far later than the other 2 races) So that gas income might at first be spent on a few mutalisks for harass or forcing anti-air, the rest can be dedicated towards infestors. Their key is how they fit into the zerg economy, which in most cases is pretty light on gas until or unless corrupters need to be made.
Meaning that the infestor/baneling/zergling/roach ball is pretty good against a good number of army compositions (assuming your macro is on the level of your opponent or better).
What strikes me as odd is when blizzard made a change to them based on their move speed, yet on creep they are the fastest moving caster unit and even off creep they are the fastest unit.
I've said to friends I play with that the infestor was overbuffed in order to get people to use them, but unfortunately we haven't seen a major change to using infestors within an actual strategy. That is, in the same sense that 'mutaling' is a strategy. It seems that most zergs still only build infestors as a reactionary unit rather than a cornerstone of their army. In the future they may be tweaked again but I still think we are a few months from seeing such changes as when you have players like Idra who refuse to use them with juvenile reasoning like: "just 'cause" or "well protoss will just X,Y,Z"
Did you just hear Tyler for exemple saying that maybe zerg should rush their 8 gazer ASAP ? He is saying that because in fact zerg units cost way more gaz than others because they are expandable, they die every second, in the end you spend as much or more gaz than any other race. Look at T3 units, they cost a lot of gaz and are not big units with high range that never dies like colossi. Our tech structure need a shitload of gaz, we need to research a lot of upgrades throughout the game, etc. Baneling cost gaz, roach too.
We took our gazer later, but we took more gazer mid / late game.
You are not a zerg and still arguing how IdrA is not a good spokeperson about zerg state, you are wrong, he is pretty good but not perfect as everyone.
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After already being terrible vs Zerg pre-infestor buff, I think I'm switching to Zerg. Sad but if you can't beat em join em.
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On April 27 2011 02:18 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 02:17 .Enigma. wrote:On April 27 2011 02:14 Griffith` wrote:On April 27 2011 02:10 .Enigma. wrote:On April 27 2011 02:07 Griffith` wrote:On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote:
2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe. What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away. Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers. Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods. Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please. Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers. LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What? Mutas are negated by turrets / one thor and infestors are fucking garbage harassers if you have one single turret to detect. I didn't say Zergs don't have effective harass methods, read it again please. I said that Terrans have much better ways of harassing. One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit, rarely will you get thors out before the first 6 muta flock. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice.
You cannot get 6 mutas before thor AND infestors at the same time. What are you talking about?
I don't really know what the fuss is about, blizzard just bruteforced more micro/ghosts in the tvz matchup, involving unit formations and scouting too. It just lifts the skill level ceiling, which is something good for an up and coming game like sc2.
By changing the infestor they basically made the tvz matchup less trifecta base (tank medivacs marines vs lingbling muta), and such thing is GOOD for the game.
Ofc players need some time do adapt, deal with it.
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On April 27 2011 03:36 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:29 Sv1 wrote:
For starters, I think Idra is and always will be a terrible spokesperson for Zerg. While there's no doubt of his skill, his relcalcitrance to trying anything creative or new in my opinion speaks worlds about his view and grasp of the game as a whole. Especially since he himself says they are strong vs ZvP yet didn't build them in his most recent ragequit match (TSL or NASL, can't recall exactly). There are far more Zerg players, or even Terran/Toss players who I would go to first for their opinion on the infestor before Idra. But this isn't about him, it's about the infestors.
For you to look at whether the infestor can kill units outright based on the damage it does to small fodder units, for example the marines you stated, is a poor analysis of the unit. The infestor, like all other casters are meant to be supplemental in addition to the army. If you need a second fungal to kill units, that means your macro everywhere else has slipped and you have no army that SHOULD be able to clean up (as all the other caster units function). It would seem to me no doubt that you are a protoss player feeling the spurn of infestors.
One of the points about infestors is that, in most matchups Zerg has a relatively low gas usage (as it is they get their geysers far later than the other 2 races) So that gas income might at first be spent on a few mutalisks for harass or forcing anti-air, the rest can be dedicated towards infestors. Their key is how they fit into the zerg economy, which in most cases is pretty light on gas until or unless corrupters need to be made.
Meaning that the infestor/baneling/zergling/roach ball is pretty good against a good number of army compositions (assuming your macro is on the level of your opponent or better).
What strikes me as odd is when blizzard made a change to them based on their move speed, yet on creep they are the fastest moving caster unit and even off creep they are the fastest unit.
I've said to friends I play with that the infestor was overbuffed in order to get people to use them, but unfortunately we haven't seen a major change to using infestors within an actual strategy. That is, in the same sense that 'mutaling' is a strategy. It seems that most zergs still only build infestors as a reactionary unit rather than a cornerstone of their army. In the future they may be tweaked again but I still think we are a few months from seeing such changes as when you have players like Idra who refuse to use them with juvenile reasoning like: "just 'cause" or "well protoss will just X,Y,Z" Did you just hear Tyler for exemple saying that maybe zerg should rush their 8 gazer ASAP ? He is saying that because in fact zerg units cost way more gaz than others because they are expandable, they die every second, in the end you spend as much or more gaz than any other race. Look at T3 units, they cost a lot of gaz and are not big units with high range that never dies like colossi. Our tech structure need a shitload of gaz, we need to research a lot of upgrades throughout the game, etc. Baneling cost gaz, roach too. We took our gazer later, but we took more gazer mid / late game. You are not a zerg and still arguing how IdrA is not a good spokeperson about zerg state, you are wrong, he is pretty good but not perfect as everyone.
Wtf is a gazer.. -_-
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Infestors are hands down ridiculous. The fact that they lock units down means they do just as much if not more damage than a storm does on average, and THEN you have to add in the fact that other zerg units profit greatly when their opponent is immobilized; banelings and broodlords.
You basically have to use HTs for feedback and hope zerg has his infestors in front (LOL), because you're dead otherwise.
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Infestors might be too strong when Zergs learn to use multiple control groups, and that you shouldn't attack-move caster units with no attack. Until then, who knows?
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On April 27 2011 03:40 DooMDash wrote:
After already being terrible vs Zerg pre-infestor buff, I think I'm switching to Zerg. Sad but if you can't beat em join em.
Welcome to a world of frustration my friend. The Swarm is awesome yes, but frustrating. ZvP and ZvZ are pretty hectic match ups. ZvT is very multi-task heavy, and breaking siege lines is really hectic, but passed the early game, the number of Terran cheeses/quick tech switches decreases dramatically. Thats not really the case in ZvP ZvZ.
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On April 27 2011 03:09 mardi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote:
My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd. They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new. Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal.
Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer....
And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
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On April 27 2011 03:36 WhiteDog wrote:
Did you just hear Tyler for exemple saying that maybe zerg should rush their 8 gazer ASAP ? He is saying that because in fact zerg units cost way more gaz than others because they are expandable, they die every second, in the end you spend as much or more gaz than any other race. Look at T3 units, they cost a lot of gaz and are not big units with high range that never dies like colossi. Our tech structure need a shitload of gaz, we need to research a lot of upgrades throughout the game, etc. Baneling cost gaz, roach too.
We took our gazer later, but we took more gazer mid / late game.
You are not a zerg and still arguing how IdrA is not a good spokeperson about zerg state, you are wrong, he is pretty good but not perfect as everyone.
This is what I am kind of hinting at. Basically since release zergs have been getting their fast hatch and their fast pool and then sit on 1 geyser for too long. Not too long ago was there a Zerg strategy thread posted about going infestors (I want to say that Catz had maybe posted it but I'm unsure). Additionally plenty of times when zergs take a third they still sit on the 4 geysers they started with. Whereas protoss will take the third for the geysers alone because their gas usage is more obvious (templar, colossus), as opposed to zerg which comes in small parcels, so the perception seems to be that "oh, because my units individually are cheap on gas, my 5th and 6th geysers can wait".
For what it's worth, neural parasite has a great range but requires good positioning and micro, at the very least what you are doing is exchanging your infestor for the unit you mind control (a colossus/thor) You might be microing to try and mind control a massive unit, but your opponent is now trying to micro to kill the infestor controlling. Of course energy cost is an issue much as it is for the raven, but as the game goes on, it's not unreasonable to have these upgrades unlocked.
And if you could read again what I wrote about idra, yes he is pretty good, and not perfect. That is what I said though in not so few words, and that's why people need to stop going to him for the gospel of Zerg. I'm going to leave it at that as the thread is about infestors and not idra and I'd like to keep it on task.
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On April 27 2011 03:49 PlosionCornu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:09 mardi wrote:On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote:
My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd. They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new. Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal. Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer.... And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept.
Plagu was a tier3/hive spell and costed 150 energy (albeit cost is mitigated with consume)
ensnare did no damage, and lol who gets devourers.
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On April 27 2011 03:55 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 03:49 PlosionCornu wrote:On April 27 2011 03:09 mardi wrote:On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote:
My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd. They've been able to do this since beta. This isn't anything new. Anyways, I think that infestors are okay as they are. They are really strong in ZvZ especially if the other guy goes mass muta and doesnt split them up... 3-4 fungals can kill any amount of mutas if they are in that aoe of the fungal. Omg, do you realize that infestors were better at uncloaking stuff BEFORE the nerf, the fungal lasted a lot longer.... And by the way, plaguu, ensnare and acid spores did the same thing waay back in bw. it's not a new concept. Plagu was a tier3/hive spell and costed 150 energy (albeit cost is mitigated with consume) ensnare did no damage, and lol who gets devourers.
Who gets devourers? Jaedong. Vs Bisu.
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On April 26 2011 21:53 twiitar wrote:
My biggest problem with the new Infestors is that.... Zerg can - if he has eyes - just skip Overseers and fungal your (cloaked) Banshee. And it'll uncloak for the time being fungal'd.
It would cost a higher gas investment to have infestors to fungal your Banshee then to simply spawn an overseer. Plus it allows for a different choice of investment, and in the case of him missing it's a terrible investment.
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As a Protoss, the new Infestor scares me...
and I think thats a good thing. Every race should have units that scare the other race. God knows I'm not scared of Broods or Ultras. But Infestors? Yeah, these days I definitely have "oh shit" moments against Infestors.
To me, thats fair. Its not like Infestors are these unkillable super unit, or like FG alone will win them every battle. I still win my fair share of games against Z.
But the game are actually *more* interesting to me, because they follow a more unpredictable pattern. I can't get a deathball and 1A. Or I can. But if my opponent is good, there's a good chance he'll be able to beat it with some well-placed fungals and decent unit composition. That forces me to be smarter, and to approach game differently.
It also creates a clearer role for HTs. Feedback is an incredibly useful spell against Infestors, and unlike Storm, you can warp it in on command. If heavy Infestor use stays the norm, I think we'll see a Protoss shift to HTs--and more HTs and fewer Colossi is a good thing, IMO.
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I don't like your comparaison with storm.
You are ometting the main difference between HT and infestors: an infestor with no energy is as usefull as a dead unit.
High templars can morph into archons which are awesome unit.
An archon alone, almost justify the cost of 2 HT.
Getting 2 fungal growth for 200 minerals and 300gas, is nowhere as good as getting 2 storms and 1 archon for 100 minerals and 300 gas.
Infestors are not OP if you compare them with the units from other races.
However, for a zerg unit they are remarkably good.
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On April 27 2011 04:22 Elean wrote:
I don't like your comparaison with storm.
You are ometting the main difference between HT and infestors: an infestor with no energy is as usefull as a dead unit.
High templars can morph into archons which are awesome unit.
An archon alone, almost justify the cost of 2 HT.
Getting 2 fungal growth for 200 minerals and 300gas, is nowhere as good as getting 2 storms and 1 archon for 100 minerals and 300 gas.
Infestors are not OP if you compare them with the units from other races.
However, for a zerg unit they are remarkably good.
Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
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Jesus, people are acting like the zerg has infinite gas..
Infestors are a huge gas investment and gas was already the limiting factor in ZvT. They drastically reduce the amount of Mutalisks and Banelings Zerg can get. You can get a Ghost instead of a Tank, you don't need as many tanks because there aren't as many Banelings. A Ghost costs the same as a marine + an infestor, and that's essentially what you get out of it: you get at least one infestor per ghost, and your ghost contributes a little to the DPS of your army. If the Zerg has 10 gas to your 6, then the problem isn't Infestors, the problem is that you let him get greedy. You can abuse drops to prevent expos, infestors are slow and as said previously they reduce the Mutalisk numbers. Just don't pretend like Infestors are a free kill-everything unit, they aren't.
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i been playing countless games against my Zerg practice partners and i never beaten them when they go infestor+anything? any suggetsions?
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Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
Even if Archons don't do damage (which isn't true these days IME, because so many Zergs are going for Infestor+Ling play and Archons own Lings) they still tank a decent number of hits before going down due to their massive health, which effectively extends the lifespan of your other units.
Plus, Feedback kicks the crap out of any non-FG Infestor spell. At the very least it renders an Infestor a non-factor for a good long while, and there's a decent chance it does a good amount of damage to them as well. Its cheaper than Storm/FG, and you can warp it in. A Protoss player who is quick on the draw with feedback can kick the crap out of a heavy Infestor composition.
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On April 27 2011 04:23 Griffith` wrote:
Except the problem is, while the archon is morphed, it's actually not doing damage. Very rarely do you see two HTs storm, then scuttle away to safety. Usually it needs to morph instantly, and a huge fight breaks out, in which during the fight, the archons do zero damage.
It is however still HP that instantly is put in the battlefield for no extra cost after the templar have done their damage. It will either redirect fire to hit them, or eventually get a hit off (more so now with the potential conc shell change in TvP cases).
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EPT
