EPTPost 1.3 Infestors - Really Too Strong? - Page 11
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LastMan
90 Posts
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LightWireEX
United States387 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:49 Klive5ive wrote: They're glass cannons, exactly what sc2 needed. Since Zerg is struggling they can't possibly be overpowered either and it's not as if rushing to them is a good idea. They're also support units that are useless by themselves, support units need to be powerful to make up for this weakness (templar). Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:45 .Enigma. wrote: Blizzard was awfully quick to hear the Terrans then, I suppose. The ghost "buff" isn't really that much of a buff, I and most Terrans will still always get a tank over a ghost. Otherwise there is no way to deal with sling/bling. SC2 AI surrounds much much better than BW and without splash, TvZ is impossible. 100 gas for a unit that might drain 100 energy coupled with absurdly difficult to use snipe? uh. no thanks. On April 27 2011 01:42 ppdealer wrote: Where have you been during the latest MSL my BW friend? 2/3Hatch-Muta will is still the standard, one or two rare instances in MSL isn't really a good example. Most TvZs is still essentially SK Terran vs 2/3Hatch Muta, with tanks sprinkled in, and trying to beat the pre-defiler timings. I dont get the whole "zerg" is struggling argument. Terran is already the least played race in Masters and Diamond in North America and Europe. Korea is still a Terran-fest, admittedly, just more of a cultural thing since most BW bonjwas were Terran. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:37 Moody wrote: I think your arguments are from the perspective of a Zerg player and, therefore, strongly zerg biased. Your entire post is riddled with strawmen that you subsequently tear down because... you know.. they're strawmen... that's how they work. It's really horrible logic. The biggest problem with Infestors right now, is that once you land a fungal growth, you prevent your opponent from doing anything with those units, for as long as you have energy. It's this limiting of micro coupled with an absurd amount of guaranteed damage that is too strong. The Infestor should be powerful spell caster used to support the rest of the zerg army. As it stands, it is used AS the Zerg army while zergling / baneling / roach have become the support units. Imagine if a Protoss came charging at you with 12 high templars, and 10 zealots. You wouldn't be too intimidated. Or if a Terran came running into your natural with 12 ghosts (lol) and 20 marines. You'd clean up either of those forces pretty easily. AND THERES NO WAY FOR THEM TO RETREAT. Sounds quite a bit like sentries. prevents you from moving? check ppl using it as their main army? check can keep you stuck till it runs out of energy? check prevents you to retreat? check The only thing that infestors got that it does damage as well but then again, the infestor is supposed to be a tier higher then sentries and it cost more gas. It's funny that the moment zerg actually get something decent to play around with ppl instantly want to nerf it. I have yet to see complete tournament domination by fungals btw while i seen quite a bit of force field domination. | ||
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:53 Griffith` wrote: I dont get the whole "zerg" is struggling argument. Terran is already the least played race in Masters and Diamond in North America and Europe. Korea is still a Terran-fest, admittedly, just more of a cultural thing since most BW bonjwas were Terran. No one (I think) is saying that Zerg is struggling in ZvT at the moment though, I feel that it's pretty damn balanced. | ||
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Moody
United States750 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:51 LightWireEX wrote: Infestors are not just support units. They are highly effective harass units that give no notification when they're in your mineral line. And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them. Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did. | ||
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:58 Moody wrote: And on top of that, once you find out their in your mineral line (When they cast 2 fungals covering all of your workers) it's too late. You can't run your workers away from the next fungal growth that WILL kill them. Infestor's make me hate playing verse zerg even more than I already did. You need four fungals to wipe out a mineral line, which means bringing two infestors which is extremely risky since a single turret or cannon pretty much negates it. | ||
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:03 frucisky wrote: 2 full energy ghosts can pretty much do the same thing to workers with shift snipe. What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away. | ||
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Frobert
Canada113 Posts
In terms of giving the other player a chance to avoid fungal (which is more entertaining for both players and spectators) I think that they should bring back the projectile animation for fungal so it can be dodged, or make it so that instead of immobilizing units, it slows them down 80-90% so that they can be split, saving a few of them from subsequent fungals. | ||
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:07 Griffith` wrote: What is the apm required to shift snipe? Snipe requires you to click perfectly on every single drone. 4x fungals takes 4 clicks. Ghosts have no escape route as they use up their energy, infestors just burrow and scoot away. Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers. Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods. Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please. | ||
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GxZ
United States375 Posts
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lahey
United States41 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:40 ppdealer wrote: Zerg can also just leave 10 Zerglings at each of their expansions to stop any of your drop play hard. Since Zergling is the fist combat unit Zerg can build, why are you even using drop against Zerg then? 10 zerglings doesnt stop a medivac + 8 marines, sorry | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:10 .Enigma. wrote: Terran has other, BETTER harassments to do then to run around with ghosts and snipe workers. Banshees, blue flame hellions, drops and auto-turrets are pretty DAMN good at harassing while Zerg doesn't have nearly as effective methods. Don't compare the ghost to the infestor in who's the better harasser please. Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers. LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What? The whole point of the infestor buff was to help ZvP, and it really doesnt. IMO, buff hydras, revert infestors, ZvP problem solved, TvZ problem solved. No one used hydras in BW TvZ, and they never will in SC2 TvZ. Keep hydras contained to ZvP. | ||
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:14 Griffith` wrote: Not only do mutas/infestors counter the first 3 (banshees, bfh, drops), they themselves are amazing harassers. LOL. "zerg doesn't have effective harass methods". What? Mutas are negated by turrets / one thor and infestors are fucking garbage harassers if you have one single turret to detect. I didn't say Zergs don't have effective harass methods (Mutas are actually pretty damn good), read it again please. I said that Terrans have much better ways of harassing. EDIT: On April 27 2011 02:14 Griffith` wrote: The whole point of the infestor buff was to help ZvP, and it really doesnt. IMO, buff hydras, revert infestors, ZvP problem solved, TvZ problem solved. No one used hydras in BW TvZ, and they never will in SC2 TvZ. Keep hydras contained to ZvP. I wouldn't mind this though. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:17 .Enigma. wrote: Mutas are negated by turrets / one thor and infestors are fucking garbage harassers if you have one single turret to detect. I didn't say Zergs don't have effective harass methods, read it again please. I said that Terrans have much better ways of harassing. One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit, rarely will you get thors out before the first 6 muta flock. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice. | ||
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:18 Griffith` wrote: One thor and one turret doesn't negate shit. On some maps like xel'naga caverns, there is no way to prevent infestors from raping your mineral lines at your 3rd. No turret simcity will suffice. It negates harassment, and that's what we're talking about. Okay, infestors might be somewhat viable harassers in the late game when bases are spead out but they're still pretty easy to deny if you're aware of their existence. The third on xel'naga is easy to protect by putting down a turret above the third and having a bunker / a few units there, btw. Just like putting down spine crawlers at your expos to deny BF hellions to run rampant. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:44 LightWireEX wrote: Am I the only zerg in the world that wants infestors nerfed just because it completely ruins ZvZ? I was finally starting to see some dynamic play and now it's just like RUSH to Infestors first one to get more then 3 wins and decimates the other person's army. I wasn't having any problems with toss deathballs, wasn't having any problem with terran, and now I hate seeing ZvZ load up so much and it used to be my favorite. Until you show me a semi-effective way to snipe out infestors in ZvZ then I will claim that they are breaking the game. Fungal can't hit Spine Crawlers. | ||
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Frobert
Canada113 Posts
On April 27 2011 02:22 .Enigma. wrote: It negates harassment, and that's what we're talking about. Okay, infestors might be somewhat viable harasser in the late game but they're still pretty easy to deny. The third on xel'naga is easy to protect by putting down a turret above the third and having a bunker / a few units there, btw. Just like putting down spine crawlers at your expos to deny BF hellions to run rampant. But if you did this, you wouldn't be able to have all your units on one hotkey  | ||
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Grezzz
United Kingdom78 Posts
Double dps only really matters if you're going to chain fungals. Whether the damage is done in 1 second, 4 seconds or 8 seconds - it doesn't make a lot of difference - it's the same amount of damage unless you have enough energy to chain fungal, and players never do. How often do you see somebody with 10 infestors on full energy dropping fungal after fungal after fungal? Never, because anyone who buys that many infestors gets smashed. The rate of damage isn't all that important when you consider that at the end of the fight the infester still did the same amount of damage total. The 30% increase to armor is a nice increase, I can't deny that, but it's certainly not the OP protoss smashing unit that people were expecting. I'd say infestors are probably fine as they are. They're not useless against protoss like they once were, but they're certainly not overpowered like people were thinking. Perhaps in the future someone will find a way to abuse fungal dps, but at the moment it doesn't seem to be happening. | ||
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