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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 07 2011 00:40 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:24 Vardant wrote:
Am I missing something or does researching Strike Cannon magically gives your Protoss opponent Templar Archives?
Is cloak worthless, because you can get Observers or Cannons?
Do you see Protoss players not going with HTs, because Terran can get Ghosts?
We may have seen some changes that we didn't like, but they were never random.
Patch 1.4: Researching 250mm Strike Cannons now automatically builds a Templar Archives in your opponent's base, regardless of race. On a serious note, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that just because their opponent can do something automatically means that X tech path is shut down. I think it was Day9 that brought up scourge in BW; even though a Z would have scourge always patrolling the map, their opponents were still able to successfully drop either with brute force or with strategy, and this hasn't changed in SC2. Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 06 2011 16:54 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/ Because ThorZain showed you could walk through any Toss composition like he was not even there with mass Thor. Other pros have sent vod, they have game tested it, and found it IMBA. Yes, for 2 FULL weeks the Protoss community smashed their heads against a brick wall and a patch was the only solution. Zerg is crying for months against the "death ball" and Terran mech is nigh dead yet, it's because we have to explore more. .... Players actually were coming up with possible strategies(Tyler mentioned using Graviton Beam on his immortals before the strike cannon could do much damage), but they were incredibly flimsy and could be completely shut down with smart ghost play.
For how long ffs? It was also Tyler that admited that protoss has no reason to innovate because they are doing more then fine with what they have. This was a moment to innovate. Bah, Blizzard does what Blizzard wants. Its all good.
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I think Terran should stop making Marines too, since they're basically useless against Colossus.
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On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses.
You are wrong 25 siege tanks do beat 25 immortals because of the splash.
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The great thing about Thors not having energy was that they couldn't just go Templar tech and counter both your marines and thors. Don't know where this idea comes from that Thors started seeing use in TvP because of Strike Cannons being usable faster. It's just a dumb spell that now once again is useless in all MU's, it's mere existence is a disadvantage since Thors will walk around with a permanent 200 energy bar.
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Rescinding the zealot/stalker build time changes is horrible, pvp is back to a 4gate fest and now early game pvt is going to be harder with +20 seconds on wg research. 2 gate is not that strong wtf.
I thought the whole point of this patch was to fix pvp. This game is in a good place in pretty much every aspect but pvp, I don't even understand why they are changing anything else. I'd rather have WG research really high (like 200) and shorter zealot/stalker build times. Thor change seems really silly too
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So, is the warp gate time going to be increased or not??
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Honestly, the Thor change is downright annoying - even in beta, when the upgrade was free, strike cannons were barely utilized. They were only put as an upgrade because the Thor's attack speed got buffed. As said, it's bloody ridiculous how bio, mech, banshees, bcs and ravens end up getting countered by High Templar.
Still, it's probably an answer to the removal of the amulet, but an awkward one at that.
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On May 07 2011 02:09 Rkr wrote:
So, is the warp gate time going to be increased or not??
Yes, but only by 20seconds. Basically it will take 1 more chrono-boost and 4-gate will function just the same. I am really disappointed, i was very excited by the first draft of the patch changes and I hope they make wg research longer and reduce zealot and stalker build times.
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On May 07 2011 01:51 Drowsy wrote:
Rescinding the zealot/stalker build time changes is horrible, pvp is back to a 4gate fest and now early game pvt is going to be harder with +20 seconds on wg research. 2 gate is not that strong wtf.
I thought the whole point of this patch was to fix pvp. This game is in a good place in pretty much every aspect but pvp, I don't even understand why they are changing anything else. I'd rather have WG research really high (like 200) and shorter zealot/stalker build times. Thor change seems really silly too
Current changes basically destroy 4gate on ramped maps. There'll still be lots of it on TD/Scrap, but eh.
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On May 07 2011 01:31 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. You are wrong 25 siege tanks do beat 25 immortals because of the splash.
nope, try it on a test map, you'll be amazed of the outcome
25 immortals will not die to 25 tanks. Ever.
The Thor energy back is just stupid. Now Templars can rape ... well, let's see: Ghosts, Banshee, BC, Thors, Medivacs and can storm the shit out of MM...
Uhm....I'm sorry, but what is the other unit in game that can do mass dmg with no penalty to a large array of units?
Yeah, I'm playing toss, but energy on thors is just stupid.
My 2c.
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Going templar against banshee harass is an instant loss. You can't feedback a unit you can't detect. Please stop talking about templar countering banshee.
^^ also to answer your question: ghosts, with just about a parallel amount of little asterisks and caveats everywhere
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On May 07 2011 03:05 StimBullet wrote:nope, try it on a test map, you'll be amazed of the outcome
25 immortals will not die to 25 tanks. Ever.
get 20 tanks and 3 ghosts and see how that works out 
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God I hate feedback and how every caster class has to balanced around this one powerful ability.
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They failed pretty hard with the Thor strike cannon. Yeah, let's make already useless ability straight out liability.
Almost every Terran player would rather take Thor without energy and without strike cannon than this crap. Hopefully it won't make it out of PTR, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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On May 07 2011 03:27 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:05 StimBullet wrote:nope, try it on a test map, you'll be amazed of the outcome
25 immortals will not die to 25 tanks. Ever.
get 20 tanks and 3 ghosts and see how that works out
Except, that's not what he said.
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The Thor is fucking cool single-player unit (along with banshee/reaper and many more) that for some reason made it into multi-player. They will either be bordeline broken or underused.
I am amazed at the comments here since the Thor is impossible to balance, it with either demolish everything or it will be made an average unit that might not worth to invest it.
The cooldown on Strike-cannon was completely broken in TvP but the energy change/revert makes it hard countered by feedback.
At least T can now has to get ghosts mixed into mech builds that will make them stronger and more all-around.
Hey but the Thor is so much more fun and COOLER that the Goliath...
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As said, it's bloody ridiculous how bio, mech, banshees, bcs and ravens end up getting countered by High Templar.
I'm trying to figure out how these things get "countered" by High Templar (every day makes me wish I could give Day[9] deity powers so that he could expunge that word from the universe's vocabulary).
Oh sure, Banshees take pretty significant damage from Feedback. But BCs have five hundred and fifty Hp. Even if you were able to get a full 200-damage feedback off on them, that still only barely more than a third of a BC's health. Thors have 400; a full-power Feedback only does half damage. And any competent use of Thors should have a gaggle of SCVs around to help repair them.
Ravens are spellcasters; they shouldn't be waiting around with gobs of energy to begin with. If you're not using their spells, why did you build them to begin with? Oh sure, Feedback will hurt them. And if the HTs Feedback them before they cast spells, then you've lost the use of that Raven for a while.
God, I'd hate it if someone had some spell that could render my spellcasters worthless. Man, I hope there's no race with a Tier 1 spellcaster that has an AoE ability that neutralizes all spellcasters instantly. One that can cloak.
Or to put it another way, I'm Zerg; I have no way to attack the energy of my enemy's spellcasters. The absolute best I can do is get my highly valuable spellcasters in range of yours for a second and try to take control of them, then hope you don't instantly murder my highly valuable spellcasters before I can turn your own spells against you.
Deal with it. You've got the tools to do so.
So no, I'm not seeing where all this "High Templar counter everything now!" stuff comes from.
Hey but the Thor is so much more fun and COOLER that the Goliath...
It is. It allows air units to not immediately die to an easily massable unit that comes out of the Factory.
Throwing out Goliaths was one of the best decisions Blizzard made in SC2.
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On May 07 2011 03:23 Resistentialism wrote:
Going templar against banshee harass is an instant loss. You can't feedback a unit you can't detect. Please stop talking about templar countering banshee.
^^ also to answer your question: ghosts, with just about a parallel amount of little asterisks and caveats everywhere
that makes about as much sense as saying "going against DT's is an instant loss, you can't kill a unit you can't detect".
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man 50 energy spell counters all terran high tech units like raven/bc/thor/ghost
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i agree that some spells that took a long while to get, now you can get them in mid game, which i think kind of messes with the game.
meaning feedback, emp, fungal(plague) could be massed unlike it being some super powerful spell for late game. feedback is the only spell that hasnt been "nurfed" because of its nature.
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EPT
