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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
I'm not sure how I feel about the Thor/Ghost changes. The ghost change alone I like a lot, but the Thor change is almost begging a meching Terran to go Thor/Ghost; while that's something that I think a lot of us would have started toying with on our own with the Ghost change alone, I feel like Blizzard is dropping a very large hint to do so with the Thor energy bar back again.
And I'm thinking I don't mind it SO much, because tbh I think I'd prefer feedback'd Thors over stormed troops or feedback'd Ghosts. (This is why you can't say HTs will be more of a problem in TvP, because they're still limited in their amount of spellcasting potential; if anything, it requires Protoss players to be strategic in their spellcasting, which in turn requires more decision making and effort on their part.)
Remember, we must consider all possibilities in a world (Starcraft 2 multiplayer balance) governed completely by a finite cause-effect system. If you know all the circumstances in the finite system, you should be able to predict many / all of the outcomes (effects on the MU). I don't hope to say I know all of them, but I think we as a community could very well figure out all the effects these changes will have either before or during the execution of 1.3.3.
Moral of the story: No change for Sc2 is really "bad" or "good". :D it just changes things; and if the way the changes go don't please the community as a whole, give Blizzard long enough and it will be changed. Such is the nature of balance. Such is also the nature of a company hoping to sustain a community.
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On May 07 2011 07:33 Killcycle wrote:
And I'm thinking I don't mind it SO much, because tbh I think I'd prefer feedback'd Thors over stormed troops or feedback'd Ghosts. (This is why you can't say HTs will be more of a problem in TvP, because they're still limited in their amount of spellcasting potential; if anything, it requires Protoss players to be strategic in their spellcasting, which in turn requires more decision making and effort on their part.)
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EMPing the High Templars doesn't eliminiate the problem that Terran are going to face with the Thor. Gathering 150 energy for a stupid spell that is used 99% of the time on 1 or 2 units like the Immortal or Ultralisks and considering the fact that it will take A LOT of time to gather this energy is what is causing the outcry.
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On May 07 2011 07:42 Velladin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:33 Killcycle wrote:
And I'm thinking I don't mind it SO much, because tbh I think I'd prefer feedback'd Thors over stormed troops or feedback'd Ghosts. (This is why you can't say HTs will be more of a problem in TvP, because they're still limited in their amount of spellcasting potential; if anything, it requires Protoss players to be strategic in their spellcasting, which in turn requires more decision making and effort on their part.)
EMPing the High Templars doesn't eliminiate the problem that Terran are going to face with the Thor. Gathering 150 energy for a stupid spell that is used 99% of the time on 1 or 2 units like the Immortal or Ultralisks and considering the fact that it will take A LOT of time to gather this energy is what is causing the outcry. [/b]
I suppose I was more addressing the mass of "HTs > Terran" posts. As far as the cannons, I used it on Immortals, Colossus (pretty situational at that), Ultras, sometimes enemy Thors, but yeah you're right as to the scarcity of its' effectiveness and the increased time required to use it. I suppose I'd be happier with a 100 energy requirement, but really I didn't use it a whole lot even when it was usable immediately.
<Derp statement, removed>
In the end, I'd say the scarcity of 250mm being useful is more bothersome than the energy liability or the time required to gain that energy, but then again all of Terran spellcasting has felt situational to me.
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What if they just made thors only have energy when they get 200Mm strike, and start w/100 @ that point...?
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On May 07 2011 07:59 Malpractice.248 wrote:
What if they just made thors only have energy when they get 200Mm strike, and start w/100 @ that point...?
Yeah, what if?
That's a pretty pointless hypothetical. Blizzard would never do that.
What if sentries could burrow? What if marines could fly?
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Hey. Once there are marines out, Protoss gets no information on what Terran is doing beyond "teching" or "bio" until they have an observer or stargate unit in the Terran's base. At that point, you see Thors, and if you've got a Robo, it's too late to get a Stargate and start building air units
In short, it's not a matter of bad scouting or wanting to have Immortals counter Thors 1:1, but rather that Protoss has to get a Robo if the Terran techs, and once they see Thors, they really don't have time to get much more than 1:1 Immortal:Thor.
Yea just to correct you but a thor doesnt kill an immortel, quite the oposite actually its the strike cannons that kill immortels ! So basicaly your telling me that as protoss you will only have time to get warpgate / cybernetics core / robo bay .. in the same time Terran gets Barracks / factory / armory / tech lab for factory / reasearching strike cannons ???
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On May 07 2011 07:58 Killcycle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:42 Velladin wrote:On May 07 2011 07:33 Killcycle wrote:
And I'm thinking I don't mind it SO much, because tbh I think I'd prefer feedback'd Thors over stormed troops or feedback'd Ghosts. (This is why you can't say HTs will be more of a problem in TvP, because they're still limited in their amount of spellcasting potential; if anything, it requires Protoss players to be strategic in their spellcasting, which in turn requires more decision making and effort on their part.)
EMPing the High Templars doesn't eliminiate the problem that Terran are going to face with the Thor. Gathering 150 energy for a stupid spell that is used 99% of the time on 1 or 2 units like the Immortal or Ultralisks and considering the fact that it will take A LOT of time to gather this energy is what is causing the outcry. I suppose I was more addressing the mass of "HTs > Terran" posts. As far as the cannons, I used it on Immortals, Colossus (pretty situational at that), Ultras, sometimes enemy Thors, but yeah you're right as to the scarcity of its' effectiveness and the increased time required to use it. I suppose I'd be happier with a 100 energy requirement, but really I didn't use it a whole lot even when it was usable immediately. <Derp statement, removed> In the end, I'd say the scarcity of 250mm being useful is more bothersome than the energy liability or the time required to gain that energy, but then again all of Terran spellcasting has felt situational to me.
I don't recall the energy regen of the thor before the change, but I'd assume it was the same as most the other units/buildings or 0,56 energy/sec or just shy of 3 minutes for 100 energy or 4,5 for 150.
In any case, the thor in itself was hardly "OP" in TvP, it was just starting to get it's niche build order(Apart from the allins), that was not undefeatable like some people claim, was rather risky, VERY unforgiving(loose a fight = loose game), very immobile and in general it's a sad thing to be forced MMM in TvP, especially considering BW's beautiful mech TvP.
The ghost buff will probably be pretty huge, but I doubt it will effect thors at all, think it will just help MMM out that much more and I'd guess tanks too(which admittibly is awesome if it happens), but I doubt thors will benefit from the ghost buff, or make the buff compensate for the thor nerf.
Really liked the original patch notes, but feel they've fucked it up again. I mean if zergs are fine with the infestor change so be it, but I'd hardly say they were to fast and well if zergs couldn't control their spellcasters because they were too fast... Well I'm sure toss would love to take that problem off the zerg's hands 
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On May 06 2011 21:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 21:09 Juanald wrote:On May 06 2011 20:29 atiusswe wrote:
I agree with all the changes but to put energy back on the Thor is retarded. Just make it so the cd is just longer for the strike cannons. give it a chance on the ptr before atacking blizz like this. those of us who played it know its a step in the right direction.. cmon No offense, but do you even realize thors HAD energy originally? And that it turned out that this would make them very weak to templars + chargelots...the very combo that already does very good vs bio? I'm toss and always thought this doesn't make sense. Going for an anti-bio strategy shouldn't set me up for anti-mech by default. Energy was removed exactly because of that, and as we could see, thor-centred strategies were about to emerge. Now I don't see why any terran should continue to bother, with a thor-nerf and a ghost-buff.
your forgetting about the kadarian amulet removal chnages everything i think
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On May 07 2011 08:14 crackcc wrote:Show nested quote +
Hey. Once there are marines out, Protoss gets no information on what Terran is doing beyond "teching" or "bio" until they have an observer or stargate unit in the Terran's base. At that point, you see Thors, and if you've got a Robo, it's too late to get a Stargate and start building air units
In short, it's not a matter of bad scouting or wanting to have Immortals counter Thors 1:1, but rather that Protoss has to get a Robo if the Terran techs, and once they see Thors, they really don't have time to get much more than 1:1 Immortal:Thor.
Yea just to correct you but a thor doesnt kill an immortel, quite the oposite actually its the strike cannons that kill immortels ! So basicaly your telling me that as protoss you will only have time to get warpgate / cybernetics core / robo bay .. in the same time Terran gets Barracks / factory / armory / tech lab for factory / reasearching strike cannons ???
Right, but with strike cannons, 1:1 Immortal:Thor will generally see all Immortals dying before even getting to attack.
Also, while gateway -> cy core -> robo facility is about equal to barracks -> factory -> armory (build the tech lab while the armory is building, and strike cannons researches while the thors are buildings), Protoss can't safely start immortal production until the observer sees that the Terran is playing 2 port banshee. So, Protoss can chronoboost the robo facility to make up for the fact that the first Thor was started before the first Immortal, but that will still only result in at best 1 Immortal more than there are Thors when a 2 or 3 Thor Strike Cannon push hits.
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I wonder how much this is gonna change the metagame of pvp.
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LOL. For all those arguing that Thors take longer to get out than Immortals you are mistaken. The gateway --> cyb core --> robo facility--> immortal build takes the same amount of time as the barracks --> factory-->armory simultaneously adding tech lab to factory --> Thor and strike cannon research.
IMO the thor needed a nerf. It is the only ground massive unit in the game that can shoot both air and ground, deals splash damage, cannot be targeted by anti-air, and can kill its exact counter with a simple upgrade that does not take energy.
Also there were way to many all in builds that high level terrans used in PvT that consisted of rushing for two thors coupled with ~15 marines and scvs to repair. Strike cannons were used to focus fire the immortals and the marines would clean up the rest. I personally love the nerf to the thor
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they 250mm upgrade should give the energy to the thor, but until then the thor should have no energy
might make it obvious to scout I guess tho
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On May 07 2011 09:29 PrinceVegeta wrote:
LOL. For all those arguing that Thors take longer to get out than Immortals you are mistaken. The gateway --> cyb core --> robo facility--> immortal build takes the same amount of time as the barracks --> factory-->armory simultaneously adding tech lab to factory --> Thor and strike cannon research.
IMO the thor needed a nerf. It is the only ground massive unit in the game that can shoot both air and ground, deals splash damage, cannot be targeted by anti-air, and can kill its exact counter with a simple upgrade that does not take energy.
Also there were way to many all in builds that high level terrans used in PvT that consisted of rushing for two thors coupled with ~15 marines and scvs to repair. Strike cannons were used to focus fire the immortals and the marines would clean up the rest. I personally love the nerf to the thor
Thor anti-air splash is pitiful to anything other than clumped / light units (Mass banshees, mutas or phoenixes) and is almost completely negated by magic boxing.
Further, they prioritize air over ground, so having a few a few VRs would completely subtract Thor DPS from the battle while the Thor AA did minimal damage to the VRs.
The whole "shooting up" doesn't do a whole lot when your opponent knows how to use their air. As far as Immortals "exact countering" Thors, they don't. Thors will still kill an Immortal one-on-one for its' double attack and live to tell the tale. VRs are closer to a counter than Immortals, imho. And since Stalkers do bonus to armored, Zealots wreck Thors and VRs get a bonus to massive, beyond early game rushes I've never seen them really change the tide of a battle beyond what some other units would have.
I think Blizzard needed to give Thors some more time before putting the energy bar back.
However, those 2 Thor rushes likely won't be going away. Granted they won't be able to 250mm cannon the Immortals right off the bat, you can FF with marines and achieve a similar result with the Thors still dealing hefty damage to Stalkers/Zealots. It may be slightly less potent, but we'll see.
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Totally love the thor nerf. Even in high level masters (I face some grandmaster players occasionally on NA server) I face marine thor scv 1 base all in 1 in 3 games PvT...which is pretty rediculous, and is also hard to hold off unless i go robo after 1gate or 3gates. If i try to do something like an expo build, expo is pretty much dead on most maps. The 2 thor rush with strike cannon usually came when i had 3 or so chronoboosted immortals (start making them after my obs spots the thor or armory). Still really hard to hold off without perfect positioning on your ramp.
In the end, too many terrans were getting retarded wins with these easy to execute, all-in strat thats really impossible to scout until you get obs in their base. I dont think the problem was the late game mech, rather these early game 1base all in pushes that were really rediculous to face. Pains me to face some terran with 50apm killing all my immortals with 2-3 strike cannons.
I think terrans can live without this all in, now that ptoss doesnt have 4gate anymore :p...which i love, because i think all 1base strats are cheesy as hell, esp since blizzard has yet to get rid of close positions on metalopolis and shattered, WTF is with that....
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All those people in here that are switching races because of the Thor nerf :D
Switching races won't get you out of bronze-silver league and whining won't do this either so..
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Maybe thinking about patch changes could be done in a different way, something more in line with WotC releasing new expansions for MtG (Magic the Gathering).
Blizzard's constant patching may be a way to keep the game from getting stale, which could be a deliberate strategy on their part, and quite brilliant IMO as it keeps players coming back to play.
Kinda the only way to reason about the flip-flopping on certain changes like the train time of zealots (changed from 38-33-38-33-38 again from beta to latest PTR) and Thor energy.
Lol reading the Osama thread has infected me with the conspiracy theory mindset XD
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On May 07 2011 14:06 johanngrunt wrote:
Blizzard's constant patching may be a way to keep the game from getting stale, which could be a deliberate strategy on their part, and quite brilliant IMO as it keeps players coming back to play.
I certainly hope not. The game will not get stale if Blizzard sits back, just as brood war is not getting stale after ten years without balance patches. Innovations should come from the players, not from Blizzard making silly changes to fundamentally alter the way the game works.
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I have have about a 50/50 winrate vs. terran, but i have not stopped a single thor timing attack. I don't know why more terrans don't do this
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This is the patch where they should make the pneomatized carapace be T1 ! The zerg would be able to afford it about in the 7:10-7:20 where is the exact timing of when protosses have hallucination complete with a 3 gate expand. Even the zerg scouting with the tosses and terrans !
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could someone please explain to me why terran is broken down into mech and bio?
imo that seems very 'broodwar-ish'. in reality it's like breaking a protoss down into robo -OR- gateway. or breaking zerg down into spire -OR- hatchery tech...
bio and mech are almost always better when you mix them together. mech is extremely hard to reinforce, because you'd need to be mining gas from at least 4 bases to keep the production on par with a macro protoss/zerg, not to mention the lack of mobility. bio in SC2 is epic and cost efficient against almost anything, and fills in the holes of the mech strategy... what is the point in going pure mech?
for the same reason, i've never understood why high level zerg players sometimes spam ultralisks to the point where ultralisks are 90% of their army... is this just trying to compensate for dire macro where you have a bagillion resources that need using? because ultralisk en masse is not at all cost efficient against likely terran compositions.
there are too many stubborn players who want to stick to a concrete strategy and make it work against anything. this happens very often in tournaments too, they lose pretty decisively because they continually threw units at a 'counter' strategy, and the series turns out to be a mediocre spectacle.
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EPT
