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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
Archons are strong do they really have to be massive and have 3 range??
If high templar storms that is disaster for every unit that clumps up and turning into archon to recycle.
If the creation time for the archon is increase it would be more balanced.
Archons have never been strong because you can kite them effortlessly as T or P due to conc shells and forcefield, and their range blows.
And if you try to storm, then turn HT's into an archon in the middle of the fight, your Archon will die before it ever gets a shot off...so being massive and having longer range won't matter.
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On May 07 2011 22:15 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 22:10 Maynarde wrote:On May 07 2011 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:
Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb. Embellishments <3 Not really embellishments. Professional gamers don't really use mech in TvP because it is extremely exploitable. Obviously you can have success with it if you are left alone on 3 base for an extended period of time. 1.Mobility vs Blink stalker/Colossus 2. Controlling space with minimal units 3.Dealing with quick 2/3 base carrier builds. (No you can't just say go vikings because competent players time out their builds when u are expanding to your third (setting up your economy + needing enough "stuff" to defend it with[this actually deals with reason 2.]) and/or not ready to move out because of you haven't reached critical mass yet). This wasn't too viable in SC1 for protoss vs mech due to the fact Terran in SC1 had competent ground-to-air (the goliath) and could deal with these air timings relatively easy if scouted correctly. All these reasons leave mech to be unviable at the highest levels of play.
I think you're way overestimating the attack power of a protoss army at those stages of the game. The best way to beat the strong mech builds are by doing strong early game pressure attacks while hes still relying on marines and bunkers and trying to tech. There aren't really other attack timings there that we've seen at least.
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yeah I've never, ever head any Terran say, "I'd go mech, except I'm too worried about fast carrier builds." Hell, I don't think I've ever seen a "quick 2 base carrier build" used to win a pro PvT match...ever.
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Waittt... Does this mean Archons will also break Forcefields?
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On May 08 2011 06:37 Seide wrote:
Waittt... Does this mean Archons will also break Forcefields?
lol. yes. that was one of the primary points of the change, to give non-robo Toss a way to break forcefields in PvP
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On May 07 2011 22:15 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 22:10 Maynarde wrote:On May 07 2011 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:
Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb. Embellishments <3 Not really embellishments. Professional gamers don't really use mech in TvP because it is extremely exploitable. Obviously you can have success with it if you are left alone on 3 base for an extended period of time. 1.Mobility vs Blink stalker/Colossus 2. Controlling space with minimal units 3.Dealing with quick 2/3 base carrier builds. (No you can't just say go vikings because competent players time out their builds when u are expanding to your third (setting up your economy + needing enough "stuff" to defend it with[this actually deals with reason 2.]) and/or not ready to move out because of you haven't reached critical mass yet). This wasn't too viable in SC1 for protoss vs mech due to the fact Terran in SC1 had competent ground-to-air (the goliath) and could deal with these air timings relatively easy if scouted correctly. All these reasons leave mech to be unviable at the highest levels of play.
LOL where are these "quick 2/3 base carrier builds" they don't exist in pro play because carriers take longer than walking across the Sinai and leave you hugely exposed. Not to mention carriers suck compared to BW. No reason Terran doesnt go mech is Zealots and immortals where hits don't matter and collossi who don't get hit.
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3/3 Archons are now awesome. As they should have been.
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On May 08 2011 04:38 MinLee wrote:
Overall, I think this patch will allow the late game to be more balanced.
However, I feel as though protoss is getting more buff than other races.
Archons are strong do they really have to be massive and have 3 range??
If high templar storms that is disaster for every unit that clumps up and turning into archon to recycle.
If the creation time for the archon is increase it would be more balanced.
Archons were way, way to weak to begin with. espcially ocne you consider what it costs to make an archon which is two tier 3 units, very time and gas expensive to get archons out they should be at least somewhat useable and not hard countered by kiting marauders... I think these changes are great for the archon much needed diversity given to the toss late game, it won't just be collosi vr deathballs now!!! I for one am excited.
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Why did they change Thor canons. Before it was useless ability, but when they made it cooldown spell, i finally started using thors against toss instead of dull mmm. But now reverting it to cost mana thor will be very vulnerable against HT, so ill have to switch to mmm again.
Thanks Blizzard for making SC2 so boring. First removing KA for ht so toss players have always to go colossi, now give thor mana so terran players have always to play mmm. Here is suggestion for next patch - lets remove all other units, for the off chance someone might use them.
I'd rather play slightly imbalanced game that has much varaety , then perfectly balanced dull game.
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On May 08 2011 01:17 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 03:05 StimBullet wrote:On May 07 2011 01:31 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. You are wrong 25 siege tanks do beat 25 immortals because of the splash. nope, try it on a test map, you'll be amazed of the outcome 25 immortals will not die to 25 tanks. Ever. The Thor energy back is just stupid. Now Templars can rape ... well, let's see: Ghosts, Banshee, BC, Thors, Medivacs and can storm the shit out of MM... Uhm....I'm sorry, but what is the other unit in game that can do mass dmg with no penalty to a large array of units? Yeah, I'm playing toss, but energy on thors is just stupid. My 2c. I didn't realize that 25 Immortals cost almost twice as much 25 siege tanks, and 25 more supply. At even supply the siege tanks slaughter the immortals, it's not even close.
That is just not true. You think 8 tanks can kill 6 immortals? Then you sir have never played this game. Not to mention that tank costs 125 gas and immortal 100. Tanks eat gas like crazy. They are good. But against heavy immortal compositions they are easily raped.
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On May 08 2011 08:45 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
3/3 Archons are now awesome. As they should have been.
The range increase is really good too, and the fact that they cant be slowed now. Makes the death ball even more deathly.
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ZERG
Infestor
Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25.
ROFL, good job blizzard, messing up the game even more.
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On May 08 2011 11:04 Manacakes wrote:
ZERG
Infestor
Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25.
ROFL, good job blizzard, messing up the game even more.
yeah infestor shud be also removed burrow movement, its stupid, it's already a ridiculously strong unit
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On May 08 2011 11:04 Manacakes wrote:
ZERG
Infestor
Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25.
ROFL, good job blizzard, messing up the game even more.
Yeah, I don't understand that change? What will it do?
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On May 08 2011 10:54 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 01:17 Pelopidas wrote:On May 07 2011 03:05 StimBullet wrote:On May 07 2011 01:31 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. You are wrong 25 siege tanks do beat 25 immortals because of the splash. nope, try it on a test map, you'll be amazed of the outcome 25 immortals will not die to 25 tanks. Ever. The Thor energy back is just stupid. Now Templars can rape ... well, let's see: Ghosts, Banshee, BC, Thors, Medivacs and can storm the shit out of MM... Uhm....I'm sorry, but what is the other unit in game that can do mass dmg with no penalty to a large array of units? Yeah, I'm playing toss, but energy on thors is just stupid. My 2c. I didn't realize that 25 Immortals cost almost twice as much 25 siege tanks, and 25 more supply. At even supply the siege tanks slaughter the immortals, it's not even close. That is just not true. You think 8 tanks can kill 6 immortals? Then you sir have never played this game. Not to mention that tank costs 125 gas and immortal 100. Tanks eat gas like crazy. They are good. But against heavy immortal compositions they are easily raped.
In large numbers the tanks do win, like at 20+. I've tried it in the unit tester. Try it yourself. I thought this was common knowledge.
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On May 08 2011 01:54 PrinceVegeta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:48 Killcycle wrote:On May 07 2011 09:29 PrinceVegeta wrote:
LOL. For all those arguing that Thors take longer to get out than Immortals you are mistaken. The gateway --> cyb core --> robo facility--> immortal build takes the same amount of time as the barracks --> factory-->armory simultaneously adding tech lab to factory --> Thor and strike cannon research.
IMO the thor needed a nerf. It is the only ground massive unit in the game that can shoot both air and ground, deals splash damage, cannot be targeted by anti-air, and can kill its exact counter with a simple upgrade that does not take energy.
Also there were way to many all in builds that high level terrans used in PvT that consisted of rushing for two thors coupled with ~15 marines and scvs to repair. Strike cannons were used to focus fire the immortals and the marines would clean up the rest. I personally love the nerf to the thor Thor anti-air splash is pitiful to anything other than clumped / light units (Mass banshees, mutas or phoenixes) and is almost completely negated by magic boxing. Further, they prioritize air over ground, so having a few a few VRs would completely subtract Thor DPS from the battle while the Thor AA did minimal damage to the VRs. The whole "shooting up" doesn't do a whole lot when your opponent knows how to use their air. As far as Immortals "exact countering" Thors, they don't. Thors will still kill an Immortal one-on-one for its' double attack and live to tell the tale. VRs are closer to a counter than Immortals, imho. And since Stalkers do bonus to armored, Zealots wreck Thors and VRs get a bonus to massive, beyond early game rushes I've never seen them really change the tide of a battle beyond what some other units would have. I think Blizzard needed to give Thors some more time before putting the energy bar back. However, those 2 Thor rushes likely won't be going away. Granted they won't be able to 250mm cannon the Immortals right off the bat, you can FF with marines and achieve a similar result with the Thors still dealing hefty damage to Stalkers/Zealots. It may be slightly less potent, but we'll see. The thors aren't used as anti-air other than with light units. You can easily target fire with thors. A marine stim will basically 1 shot a void ray. A 1 on 1 battle immortal vs thor the immortal wins every time so I don't exactly understand what you are saying by they will still kill an immortal one-on-one. Stalkers do a mere +4 more to armored so you can't really make a case that they are good against thors without being completely incompetent. Yes zealots do wreck thors but it is negated by but with a few hellions added to the mix (that are easy to produce since the factory and tech lab are already researched) the zealots are negated. And I'm not sure if you have ever tried to force field the scvs off of a thor but let me tell you it does not work. The FF will either not show up or the thor will A move right over it making it virtually useless. The thor nerf was a good decision by blizzard and I bet it stays around for a long time.
My comments about the Thor's AA were specifically addressing the quoted comment stating Thors as the only ground-massive unit that could shoot up as well as have splash, thus it "needed" a nerf; I was simply saying half of what was mentioned isn't much of a boon to the player.
As to the Stalker's "mere" +4 damage to armored, a stalker-heavy army will destroy your Thors, especially if backed up by Zealots (which you can argue by putting Hellions in your mix, but then you're down on Marauders and Marines or whatever else it is you're fighting with.) My point wasn't that Stalkers "counter" Thors, but just like attack upgrades, many small bonuses add up with more units and they do relatively well against Thors. In my experience, anyway; I can't speak for yours.
Target firing with Thors is very inefficient if you have more than two or three, since 2-3 Thors will one-hit most any unit on the ground if target firing, and a larger late-game army of 6+ Thors would be wasted in target firing any one unit. And if you have the apm to individually target fire, I commend you. Not to mention problems you'll find against a bunch of low HP units.
I remember unit-testing 1 Thor vs. 1 Immortal without 250mm cannons and having the Thor come out on top; I don't remember the upgrades (or whether I tested them with any), but I'm certain it wasn't the Immortal. Note that they were both A-moved into each other.
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On May 08 2011 11:10 Nalbis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 11:04 Manacakes wrote:
ZERG
Infestor
Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25.
ROFL, good job blizzard, messing up the game even more. Yeah, I don't understand that change? What will it do?
Actually that change is a buff to zerg. This will prevent your infestors from running up in front and getting killed before your army gets there(this might seem like silver level control, but it actually even happens in pro games). So now they'll stay behind your army and cast spells off instead of exposing themselves.
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On April 26 2011 11:22 sAfuRos wrote:
Eh...not a fan of the pylon distance change, nor the ghost cost change
Ghosts should be gas intensive, not mineral intensive :/
Edit: i wonder how much the anti-stacking will affect mutas....
I find it funny that high templars warp in and cost 100 less resources than a ghost, (50/150 for HTS 200/100 for ghosts) why can't they make ghosts 150/100 they're underused as it is even against the things they counter.
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On May 08 2011 11:18 dartoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 11:10 Nalbis wrote:On May 08 2011 11:04 Manacakes wrote:
ZERG
Infestor
Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25.
ROFL, good job blizzard, messing up the game even more. Yeah, I don't understand that change? What will it do? Actually that change is a buff to zerg. This will prevent your infestors from running up in front and getting killed before your army gets there(this might seem like silver level control, but it actually even happens in pro games). So now they'll stay behind your army and cast spells off instead of exposing themselves.
Yeah I see now, makes them harder to be picked off. Making them harder for HT's to get feedback off.
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hehe infestors hit and run on creep and even off creep was to strong, so now its a bit easier to stop or to outrun.
250mm change really is boo. But i guess they don't want thors in pvt
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EPT
