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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 07 2011 14:19 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 14:06 johanngrunt wrote:
Blizzard's constant patching may be a way to keep the game from getting stale, which could be a deliberate strategy on their part, and quite brilliant IMO as it keeps players coming back to play.
I certainly hope not. The game will not get stale if Blizzard sits back, just as brood war is not getting stale after ten years without balance patches. Innovations should come from the players, not from Blizzard making silly changes to fundamentally alter the way the game works.
You know how many patches came out for broodwar in those ten years? About this many.
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On May 07 2011 18:15 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 14:19 Pelopidas wrote:On May 07 2011 14:06 johanngrunt wrote:
Blizzard's constant patching may be a way to keep the game from getting stale, which could be a deliberate strategy on their part, and quite brilliant IMO as it keeps players coming back to play.
I certainly hope not. The game will not get stale if Blizzard sits back, just as brood war is not getting stale after ten years without balance patches. Innovations should come from the players, not from Blizzard making silly changes to fundamentally alter the way the game works. You know how many patches came out for broodwar in those ten years? About this many.
only patches up to 1.09 actually changed the game fundamentally though, after that there weren't anymore balance changes
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On May 07 2011 18:15 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 14:19 Pelopidas wrote:On May 07 2011 14:06 johanngrunt wrote:
Blizzard's constant patching may be a way to keep the game from getting stale, which could be a deliberate strategy on their part, and quite brilliant IMO as it keeps players coming back to play.
I certainly hope not. The game will not get stale if Blizzard sits back, just as brood war is not getting stale after ten years without balance patches. Innovations should come from the players, not from Blizzard making silly changes to fundamentally alter the way the game works. You know how many patches came out for broodwar in those ten years? About this many.
and like 2 of them had actual "balance" changes in them
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I just hate that they're nerfing Thors specifically for TvP I mean Terrans are consistently branded for Marauder massing in TvP but look at what happens anytime Terran even attempts to find anything else potent.
I just find it stupid that Blizzard blatantly want Terran to do nothing but go bio in TvP and will be damned before they let Terran find something else to do.
From my opinion Mech type play should be encouraged rather than nerfed yet again. Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb.
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On May 07 2011 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:
Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb.
Embellishments <3
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On May 07 2011 22:10 Maynarde wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:
Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb. Embellishments <3
Not really embellishments. Professional gamers don't really use mech in TvP because it is extremely exploitable. Obviously you can have success with it if you are left alone on 3 base for an extended period of time.
1.Mobility vs Blink stalker/Colossus
2. Controlling space with minimal units
3.Dealing with quick 2/3 base carrier builds. (No you can't just say go vikings because competent players time out their builds when u are expanding to your third (setting up your economy + needing enough "stuff" to defend it with[this actually deals with reason 2.]) and/or not ready to move out because of you haven't reached critical mass yet). This wasn't too viable in SC1 for protoss vs mech due to the fact Terran in SC1 had competent ground-to-air (the goliath) and could deal with these air timings relatively easy if scouted correctly.
All these reasons leave mech to be unviable at the highest levels of play.
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On May 07 2011 22:15 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 22:10 Maynarde wrote:On May 07 2011 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:
Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb. Embellishments <3 Not really embellishments. Professional gamers don't really use mech in TvP because it is extremely exploitable. Obviously you can have success with it if you are left alone on 3 base for an extended period of time. 1.Mobility vs Blink stalker/Colossus 2. Controlling space with minimal units 3.Dealing with quick 2/3 base carrier builds. (No you can't just say go vikings because competent players time out their builds when u are expanding to your third (setting up your economy + needing enough "stuff" to defend it with[this actually deals with reason 2.]) and/or not ready to move out because of you haven't reached critical mass yet). This wasn't too viable in SC1 for protoss vs mech due to the fact Terran in SC1 had competent ground-to-air (the goliath) and could deal with these air timings relatively easy if scouted correctly. All these reasons leave mech to be unviable at the highest levels of play.
Your forgot the fact that Protoss can can crush a tank line with ease in SC2 with collosi, Blink, charge, immortals, archons, etc. This was not so true in BW where running straight into a tank line was suicide without things like arbitors, reavers, carriers, drops, etc. The issue of this is the reinforcement speed. Mech has to be sturdy and survive with the majority of the army intact because the speed of reinforcement/ Reinforcement path is very weak and vulnerable.
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1.Mobility vs Blink stalker/Colossus
Well it is Mech, you don't expect it to be mobile
2. Controlling space with minimal units
BratOk does this by placing PF's as well running around the map with Banshees + Raven/single Viking
3.Dealing with quick 2/3 base carrier builds. (No you can't just say go vikings because competent players time out their builds when u are expanding to your third (setting up your economy + needing enough "stuff" to defend it with[this actually deals with reason 2.]) and/or not ready to move out because of you haven't reached critical mass yet). This wasn't too viable in SC1 for protoss vs mech due to the fact Terran in SC1 had competent ground-to-air (the goliath) and could deal with these air timings relatively easy if scouted correctly.
These builds only work if the Terran himself has been super greedy, otherwise if the Terran scouts Carriers he can take whatever he has and all his SCV's and kill the Protoss before the first Carrier is complete
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On May 07 2011 22:32 Dommk wrote:BratOk does this by placing PF's as well running around the map with Banshees + Raven/single Viking
Does BratOk play mech?
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On May 07 2011 03:05 StimBullet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:31 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. You are wrong 25 siege tanks do beat 25 immortals because of the splash. nope, try it on a test map, you'll be amazed of the outcome 25 immortals will not die to 25 tanks. Ever. The Thor energy back is just stupid. Now Templars can rape ... well, let's see: Ghosts, Banshee, BC, Thors, Medivacs and can storm the shit out of MM... Uhm....I'm sorry, but what is the other unit in game that can do mass dmg with no penalty to a large array of units? Yeah, I'm playing toss, but energy on thors is just stupid. My 2c.
I didn't realize that 25 Immortals cost almost twice as much 25 siege tanks, and 25 more supply. At even supply the siege tanks slaughter the immortals, it's not even close.
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On May 07 2011 09:48 Killcycle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:29 PrinceVegeta wrote:
LOL. For all those arguing that Thors take longer to get out than Immortals you are mistaken. The gateway --> cyb core --> robo facility--> immortal build takes the same amount of time as the barracks --> factory-->armory simultaneously adding tech lab to factory --> Thor and strike cannon research.
IMO the thor needed a nerf. It is the only ground massive unit in the game that can shoot both air and ground, deals splash damage, cannot be targeted by anti-air, and can kill its exact counter with a simple upgrade that does not take energy.
Also there were way to many all in builds that high level terrans used in PvT that consisted of rushing for two thors coupled with ~15 marines and scvs to repair. Strike cannons were used to focus fire the immortals and the marines would clean up the rest. I personally love the nerf to the thor Thor anti-air splash is pitiful to anything other than clumped / light units (Mass banshees, mutas or phoenixes) and is almost completely negated by magic boxing. Further, they prioritize air over ground, so having a few a few VRs would completely subtract Thor DPS from the battle while the Thor AA did minimal damage to the VRs. The whole "shooting up" doesn't do a whole lot when your opponent knows how to use their air. As far as Immortals "exact countering" Thors, they don't. Thors will still kill an Immortal one-on-one for its' double attack and live to tell the tale. VRs are closer to a counter than Immortals, imho. And since Stalkers do bonus to armored, Zealots wreck Thors and VRs get a bonus to massive, beyond early game rushes I've never seen them really change the tide of a battle beyond what some other units would have. I think Blizzard needed to give Thors some more time before putting the energy bar back. However, those 2 Thor rushes likely won't be going away. Granted they won't be able to 250mm cannon the Immortals right off the bat, you can FF with marines and achieve a similar result with the Thors still dealing hefty damage to Stalkers/Zealots. It may be slightly less potent, but we'll see.
The thors aren't used as anti-air other than with light units. You can easily target fire with thors. A marine stim will basically 1 shot a void ray. A 1 on 1 battle immortal vs thor the immortal wins every time so I don't exactly understand what you are saying by they will still kill an immortal one-on-one. Stalkers do a mere +4 more to armored so you can't really make a case that they are good against thors without being completely incompetent. Yes zealots do wreck thors but it is negated by but with a few hellions added to the mix (that are easy to produce since the factory and tech lab are already researched) the zealots are negated. And I'm not sure if you have ever tried to force field the scvs off of a thor but let me tell you it does not work. The FF will either not show up or the thor will A move right over it making it virtually useless. The thor nerf was a good decision by blizzard and I bet it stays around for a long time.
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On May 07 2011 22:15 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 22:10 Maynarde wrote:On May 07 2011 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:
Mech is currently seen used successfully once ever million TvX games and I find it dumb. Embellishments <3 Not really embellishments. Professional gamers don't really use mech in TvP because it is extremely exploitable. Obviously you can have success with it if you are left alone on 3 base for an extended period of time. 1.Mobility vs Blink stalker/Colossus 2. Controlling space with minimal units 3.Dealing with quick 2/3 base carrier builds. (No you can't just say go vikings because competent players time out their builds when u are expanding to your third (setting up your economy + needing enough "stuff" to defend it with[this actually deals with reason 2.]) and/or not ready to move out because of you haven't reached critical mass yet). This wasn't too viable in SC1 for protoss vs mech due to the fact Terran in SC1 had competent ground-to-air (the goliath) and could deal with these air timings relatively easy if scouted correctly. All these reasons leave mech to be unviable at the highest levels of play.
Ok lets be honest here for a second. No one in high level gaming unless messing around does a BO that rushes for carriers. And yes it is viable to say you can just "go vikings" If this is a 3 base build, which it would have to be, you can expect the terran to have scouted the stargate and the fleet beacon. Multiple scans are used once a terran has 3 cc's up. This is enough time to get double reactor star ports and make a suitable amount of vikings that with a range of 9 and correct micro, will not even take damage from carriers.
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On May 07 2011 18:08 shizna wrote:
could someone please explain to me why terran is broken down into mech and bio?
imo that seems very 'broodwar-ish'. in reality it's like breaking a protoss down into robo -OR- gateway. or breaking zerg down into spire -OR- hatchery tech...
Terran tech is segmented depending upon production tree. For protoss, the forge +Attack and +Armor works on gateway, templar, and robo tech. And +Shields works on everything including buildings and stargate tech. But Terran need to choose which single production facility's units to upgrade. Its the same reason why you don't see stargate used for much other than harass.
Biomech can work, but its messy because bio's strengths (fast and agile) clash with mech's strengths (incredibly strong when immobile). You can make it work with Marine/Tank, using the tank line to establish an outpost and then sending bioballs forward like octopus arms to draw the opponent into tank fire. But then you also need to deal with both composition's weaknesses; you're immobile because of your tank backbone, and your bio is easily crushed when caught out of position. In RTS you're often better off focusing on doing one thing very well, rather than doing a little bit of everything half heartedly.
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Overall, I think this patch will allow the late game to be more balanced.
However, I feel as though protoss is getting more buff than other races.
Archons are strong do they really have to be massive and have 3 range??
If high templar storms that is disaster for every unit that clumps up and turning into archon to recycle.
If the creation time for the archon is increase it would be more balanced.
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I am very happy that they finally decreased the gas cost of ghosts. I have a feeling ghosts are going to show up in almost every matchup due to this change and possibly even in the early game.
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On May 04 2011 23:17 avilo wrote:
Anytime mech play becomes more viable...blizzard nerfs it...maybe browder has some weird complex against mech where he doesn't wanna be seen as the cnc dev since in cnc games u mostly massed tanks -_-
Or maybe thorzains Thor push was too strong
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On May 07 2011 18:15 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 14:19 Pelopidas wrote:On May 07 2011 14:06 johanngrunt wrote:
Blizzard's constant patching may be a way to keep the game from getting stale, which could be a deliberate strategy on their part, and quite brilliant IMO as it keeps players coming back to play.
I certainly hope not. The game will not get stale if Blizzard sits back, just as brood war is not getting stale after ten years without balance patches. Innovations should come from the players, not from Blizzard making silly changes to fundamentally alter the way the game works. You know how many patches came out for broodwar in those ten years? About this many.
Lol, you realize that only 2 of those patches are balance patches? The rest were just fixing glitches / bugs / exploitable things that weren't meant to be in the game. Also look at the date of the last one.
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I think a cool build that we might see is a one base DT rush into an Archon/Chargelot push + expand against Zerg. With the High Templars not having Khaydarin Amulet, they are rather weak and would influence Colossi. I'd like to see Protoss using other units than Colossi.
The Spore Crawler change is a great idea against Banshee and Void Ray harass without impacting any other elements of the game.
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DT expanding definitely looks to be pretty viable in PvZ. It was "viable" before, in that you'd get the expo up, but then you were kinda stuck in that you'd tied up all your resources in a tech tree that wasn't that useful once detection is on the field.
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On May 08 2011 04:38 MinLee wrote:
Overall, I think this patch will allow the late game to be more balanced.
However, I feel as though protoss is getting more buff than other races.
Archons are strong do they really have to be massive and have 3 range??
If high templar storms that is disaster for every unit that clumps up and turning into archon to recycle.
If the creation time for the archon is increase it would be more balanced.
Archons have always been awful. This buff will do wonders for making templar tech more viable. Unless you want to see mass colossus every game...
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EPT
