Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully.
On May 06 2011 11:13 genopath wrote: Guess who else is not happy about the train buff reversal:
One of the better memes out there...the guy bringing in the reversed patch-notes, this was really brilliant. Also "now go and complain on the battle.net-forums" and everyone gets up, awsome.
Personally, I'm not quite happy with the revoked warpgate/gateway-stuff as well. While the archon-changes are fine, I don't understand what made them change their mind about a more drastic warpgate-change. It can't possibly be about the bronzies losing to proxy-gates again, now can it? And double gate zealot pressure won't be a problem on most of the maps (close pos slag pits is ridiculous anyways).
On May 06 2011 18:53 Leavzou wrote: When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they remove it.
Humm...
I changed your post a bit to more accurately reflect what really happens
Quoted for truth. NO race got stuff removed since release but protoss. a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???) b) Amulet Admittedly, reapers were made useless...still Blizz decided to keep the nitro pack in the game somehow. Why not make Amulet cost like 500 gas or something....removing stuff is the utmost terrible thing you can do strategy-wise, it should be ultima ratio.
One of the better memes out there...the guy bringing in the reversed patch-notes, this was really brilliant. Also "now go and complain on the battle.net-forums" and everyone gets up, awsome.
Personally, I'm not quite happy with the revoked warpgate/gateway-stuff as well. While the archon-changes are fine, I don't understand what made them change their mind about a more drastic warpgate-change. It can't possibly be about the bronzies losing to proxy-gates again, now can it? And double gate zealot pressure won't be a problem on most of the maps (close pos slag pits is ridiculous anyways).
On May 06 2011 18:53 Leavzou wrote: When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they remove it.
Humm...
I changed your post a bit to more accurately reflect what really happens
Quoted for truth. NO race got stuff removed since release but protoss. a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???) b) Amulet Admittedly, reapers were made useless...still Blizz decided to keep the nitro pack in the game somehow. Why not make Amulet cost like 500 gas or something....removing stuff is the utmost terrible thing you can do strategy-wise, it should be ultima ratio.
Changes got reverted because of 16 nexus being unstoppable on ptr with the decreased train times.
On May 06 2011 19:17 ZUR1CH wrote: Thor pushes are crazy hard to stop in the mid-game as a protoss if there's strike cannons with just a cooldown. Going back to energy-based Thors is the way to go. The only way to seriously deal with Thor pushes as Protoss is to go Immortal, and strike cannons absolutely destroy thors and Protoss is left with little to deal with the Thors. This is a great PTR change and absolutely necessary. Anyone who says otherwise is obviously just trying to defend their race to make games easier for them. Learn how to use ghosts against HTs. This will take skill, not easy massing of Thors to easily roll your enemy.
I'm still a bit surprised as to how one can "mass up" thors.. They cost 300/200 and build incredibly slowly.
Unless of course your definition of "massing up" is having around five of them.
Prior to this PTR patch, I've never heard any protoss complain about thors.
This game is starting to get pretty damn boring with every useful terran unit getting hit HARD with the nerf hammer:
This is the part I don't understand: how does this change massively damage Thors?
They will have a much longer time between Strike Cannon usage, certainly. And High Templar can Feedback them.
But last time I checked, Feedback can't kill them. If the Thor has full energy, Feedback does 200 damage. That's half of a Thor's life. Significant, certainly. But hardly crippling.
The main thing is that it weakens Strike Cannons, so that Thors aren't able to slaughter Immortals without aid from other units like Marines. I don't see the problem here. Are you saying that the only way Thors in TvP are worthwhile is if they are able to crush every ground unit the Protoss uses against them?
a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???)
It was replaced, not removed. Void Rays got a buff with their bonus vs. Massive. Overall, they were made more viable and useful because of the change.
removing stuff is the utmost terrible thing you can do strategy-wise, it should be ultima ratio.
Why? For everything, there is a perfect, optimal size. Having stuff beyond this size is wrong and non-optimal. Removing non-optimal components of a game can add strategy.
One wild idea would be to swap the positions with Sentries and Photon Cannons in the tech tree (gate unlocks cannon, forge unlocks sentries), and splitting the Cannon cost somehow between minerals and gas. 75/75 or 100/50 or 50/100.
This, in my mind, would give some wiggle room for techy builds to fall back on cannons while delaying tech should a 4gate hit. This would essentially nullify any WG push play unless the opponent is going for some low gas opening.
It would probably break a lot of things, but it's weird the Devs don't seem to look outside the box when trying to fix the issues.
One of the better memes out there...the guy bringing in the reversed patch-notes, this was really brilliant. Also "now go and complain on the battle.net-forums" and everyone gets up, awsome.
Personally, I'm not quite happy with the revoked warpgate/gateway-stuff as well. While the archon-changes are fine, I don't understand what made them change their mind about a more drastic warpgate-change. It can't possibly be about the bronzies losing to proxy-gates again, now can it? And double gate zealot pressure won't be a problem on most of the maps (close pos slag pits is ridiculous anyways).
On May 06 2011 18:53 Leavzou wrote: When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they remove it.
Humm...
I changed your post a bit to more accurately reflect what really happens
Quoted for truth. NO race got stuff removed since release but protoss. a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???) b) Amulet Admittedly, reapers were made useless...still Blizz decided to keep the nitro pack in the game somehow. Why not make Amulet cost like 500 gas or something....removing stuff is the utmost terrible thing you can do strategy-wise, it should be ultima ratio.
Protoss really could use some more upgrades just to add some variety to the tech choices... so many have been removed. Of course it's no simple task to do this without affecting game balance but it's something Blizzard could consider in expansions down the road.
One of the better memes out there...the guy bringing in the reversed patch-notes, this was really brilliant. Also "now go and complain on the battle.net-forums" and everyone gets up, awsome.
Personally, I'm not quite happy with the revoked warpgate/gateway-stuff as well. While the archon-changes are fine, I don't understand what made them change their mind about a more drastic warpgate-change. It can't possibly be about the bronzies losing to proxy-gates again, now can it? And double gate zealot pressure won't be a problem on most of the maps (close pos slag pits is ridiculous anyways).
On May 06 2011 19:03 Dommk wrote:
On May 06 2011 18:53 Leavzou wrote: When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they remove it.
Humm...
I changed your post a bit to more accurately reflect what really happens
Quoted for truth. NO race got stuff removed since release but protoss. a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???) b) Amulet Admittedly, reapers were made useless...still Blizz decided to keep the nitro pack in the game somehow. Why not make Amulet cost like 500 gas or something....removing stuff is the utmost terrible thing you can do strategy-wise, it should be ultima ratio.
Changes got reverted because of 16 nexus being unstoppable on ptr with the decreased train times.
I thought it was because of two gate pressure and proxy gates. In base proxy gates against Protoss and Terran are ridiculously difficult to stop on the PTR pre-reversal
Do you have any proof to support your claim though? Because it hardly seems like an issue, especially since 1gate expo's already die to late SCV allins (see it all the time on HuK's stream)
Instead of increasing the research time of warp gate, I would have prefered if they had changed the warpgate morph time, this way it would not delay hallucination research.
Also, the 10s morph time of the warpgates is the design flaw that made the timing push so powerfull. It creates a round of units that only need 10+5s to build instead of the normal ~30s.
a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???)
It was replaced, not removed. Void Rays got a buff with their bonus vs. Massive. Overall, they were made more viable and useful because of the change.
Their bonus vs massive is actually 100% useless. When was the last time you've seen a PvP that was decided due to the awsome void rays destroying colossi? Yeah right. Vs ultras they are good anyways and vs thors strategies aren't refined yet. Void rays were reworked with more initial damage and less damage when charged....but all of this had nothing to do with the removal of Flux Vanes. The upgrade was simply deemed to be too strong, so Blizz decided to remove it instead of reworking/fixing it.
You can twist it all you want, but in the end it was just Blizz being too lazy to think of an actual solution that didn't involve the complete removal. I'm certain it would have been possible.
i had my doubts at first i thought blizz would cave into the QQ but they realy impressed me these changes seem well thought out i especially enjoy thor bunker and warmp gate time change its a shame they had to switch zealot time we arent playing on steps of war anymore lol peace
On May 06 2011 20:29 atiusswe wrote: I agree with all the changes but to put energy back on the Thor is retarded. Just make it so the cd is just longer for the strike cannons.
give it a chance on the ptr before atacking blizz like this. those of us who played it know its a step in the right direction.. cmon
Nobody was talking about Strike Cannons before this patch. Now its omg i can't use my awesome strike cannon killing immortal/colossus super strat!
But in topic. Looks like good changes, atleast it's refreshing when a patch comes out! By the way, does anyone have an idea when this patch goes public? How fast it happened last time?
On May 06 2011 21:33 Coeus1 wrote: Nobody was talking about Strike Cannons before this patch. Now its omg i can't use my awesome strike cannon killing immortal/colossus super strat!
But in topic. Looks like good changes, atleast it's refreshing when a patch comes out! By the way, does anyone have an idea when this patch goes public? How fast it happened last time?
Nobody? Yeah, maybe in your league. As I can see, you don't realize that this is a quite a big blow for TvP mech play. And one sentence says a lot about your bias.
On May 06 2011 20:29 atiusswe wrote: I agree with all the changes but to put energy back on the Thor is retarded. Just make it so the cd is just longer for the strike cannons.
give it a chance on the ptr before atacking blizz like this. those of us who played it know its a step in the right direction.. cmon
No offense, but do you even realize thors HAD energy originally? And that it turned out that this would make them very weak to templars + chargelots...the very combo that already does very good vs bio? I'm toss and always thought this doesn't make sense. Going for an anti-bio strategy shouldn't set me up for anti-mech by default.
Energy was removed exactly because of that, and as we could see, thor-centred strategies were about to emerge. Now I don't see why any terran should continue to bother, with a thor-nerf and a ghost-buff.
The Thor change on the PTR is reeally strange and I hope they don't change it back in the "real" version. It doesn't make much sense to completely remove the Thor from TvP.
Adding energy to Thors will make them too weak against Templars+Zealots. It is better to go with no energy but nerfing strike cannons instead. For instance: a) Increase the cooldown time of Strike Cannons b) Make strike cannons do less damage but have the same DPS c) Make strike cannons do less damage against Immortals
a) Flux Vanes (did people already forget about this???)
It was replaced, not removed. Void Rays got a buff with their bonus vs. Massive. Overall, they were made more viable and useful because of the change.
Their bonus vs massive is actually 100% useless. When was the last time you've seen a PvP that was decided due to the awsome void rays destroying colossi? Yeah right. Vs ultras they are good anyways and vs thors strategies aren't refined yet.
The bonus to massive allowed them to be better against massive units. Mass Thors may not have been a refined strategy, but it still existed. And even thought VRs were strong against Ultralisks and Brood Lords before, the bonus vs. Massive allowed them to be stronger without changing their damage against other targets.
As to PvP, time will tell. Once the 4-gate nerf goes public, we'll see what happens.
You can twist it all you want, but in the end it was just Blizz being too lazy to think of an actual solution that didn't involve the complete removal. I'm certain it would have been possible.
Possible to do what, exactly?
The purpose of an upgrade is to allow a unit to be available earlier and relatively more cheaply, then later allowing that unit to become its full incarnation. Non-speedlings are a temporary half-state on the way to speedlings. Everyone pays that 100/100, but they can choose to do it at different times. They allow you to delay a unit's tech while at the same time allowing you to have a nerfed form of it earlier on. You can stockpile uncloaked Banshees and build energy, then have a timing attack once cloak finishes researching.
What is the purpose of giving Void Rays an upgrade of any kind? They're already a fairly high-tech unit. They're rather expensive, and fairly pigeonholed in their purpose. They certainly have their strengths certainly, but they have their vulnerabilities as well.
If the Void Ray was in beta without Flux Vanes, if it had never had them to begin with or if Blizzard had cut them before anyone saw it, you would never have noticed. You wouldn't be saying that the VR needs a speed upgrade. You would simply accept the unit for what it is. You're being prejudiced by your own biased viewpoint.
EPT
