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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
I love how all the bronze/silver dudes comes out the bush and starts talking like they are the oracle of starcraft 2. Its sad to see how the wow forum crowd seems to have infected this place.
Im all for a good debate, but this aint a debate, its random douchebags who states their oppenion as a fact, which drags the thread down to retard lvl.
Examples: Siege tanks are weak! Thors will be useless now! Battlecruisers are NEVER used! We NEED SPIDER MINES OR WE CANT FIGHT!......
When you state idiotic facts like that, atleast pretend to care and argument for your point.........
Back on topic: Ive have personally started to see way more mech on the ladder (master), and as a protoss i find it crazy scary. I think terran should whine less, and observe Thorzain some more, but sadly i know that wont happen.
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On April 26 2011 11:24 Xapti wrote:
ROFL WAFL
Patch 16: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 17: Zealot build time decreased from 38 to 33.
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
WTF M8?
This is going to make proxy 2 gates extremely viable once again, i dont know why the patch couldnt retain zealot build time @ 38 and then decrease stalker sentry times?
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On May 06 2011 16:38 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:30 Ezekyle wrote:On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to marines, 50 banelings won't beat 50 +3 attack marines. Watch MKP/Mvp play, they'll kill off half the banelings before they reach the marines then the other half after that with marine splitting. 50 banelings is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had made stim give +0 movement for a reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary weakness. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. Oh wait, that NEVER HAPPENED. Because there's more to Starcraft than 'my Prima strategy guide says immortals counter thors derp'. On May 06 2011 16:23 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 14:07 Hantak wrote:
i wonder... whats the real aim of feedback? is it to deplete a casters energy making it rather useless? is it to deal damage in a split second against casters?
I think that the energy on a thor will lead to odd situations, as it was mentioned before, like emp'ing your own units to avoid damage. And frankly is blizz's real intention to allow a single feedback (50 energy spell with a max of 4 casts per fully loaded HT) to deal 200 damage on a 400 hp unit that costs 300 minerals and 200 gas and takes a minute to be trained?)
On a different but related aim...
you know why almost no one uses battlecruisers? they are so expensive, take so much to train, and are so easily countered (vikings, corruptors, void rays/HT) that they are not worth the risk to be used. And its yamato ability, wich is THE reason why someone would get them, its almost completely shut down by the posibility of getting feedbacked. (losing loads of hp of a very expensive unit)
I wouldnt like THAT to happen to the thor, for it to become a 2nd battlecruiser again. BC's are used 100x more than Carriers. I don't hear you crying about that. And neither is he saying it's a good thing. You don't have to mention every balance issue in every post you ever make to be aware of them and consider them to be problems. There is lots of ways to deal with 50 marines fungel, banelings, lots of roach, broods. There is only 1 way for toss to deal with mass thor right now. Hence the change.
Is that one way magic boxed void rays, carriers, chargelots, kiting with collosi or just abusing their immobility with blink stalkers?
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On May 06 2011 16:43 Schnieder.sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:24 Xapti wrote:
ROFL WAFL
Patch 16: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 17: Zealot build time decreased from 38 to 33.
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
WTF M8? This is going to make proxy 2 gates extremely viable once again, i dont know why the patch couldnt retain zealot build time @ 38 and then decrease stalker sentry times?
the changes have been revoked.... dint u realise that?? lol
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why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/
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On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/
Because ThorZain showed you could walk through any Toss composition like he was not even there with mass Thor. Other pros have sent vod, they have game tested it, and found it IMBA.
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On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/
Because a few people lost a few games and decided to QQ about it rather than be constructive and search for a solution.
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On May 06 2011 16:15 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:09 Citrone wrote:Infestor
Speed decreased from 2.5 to 2.25. I guess Blizzard doesn't like Infestors kiting marines and fungling them just as they stim to try to run after the infestor...? *sigh* It's to prevent the infestors from running ahead of every other unit in the zerg's army when a-moving.
The Roach should have Glial Recontitution by the time the Zerg Player has Infestors, thus bringing it to 3.0 speed.
Depending on the battlefield, Hydralisks are either 0.25 (2.5 - 2.25) slower compared to infestors without creep, or faster by 0.125 (3.375-3.25) with creep.
There are two specific cases where this facts have to be considered, stressing that positioning is of utmost importance to Zerg in general.
As the Zerg advances, he has ground superiority as long as he is moving on creep which grants him vision. Either way, Hydralisks in this example are faster then infestors. It's impossible for them to be outrun by the latter.
On the other Hand, as the zerg retreats, there will most likely be no creep which helps him estimating the enemy troops advancement. Again, the Infestors are faster.
On a sidenote, I would suggest puting your infestors on an individual hotkey if the issue is suiciding them in accidentally.
-C
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On May 06 2011 16:45 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:38 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 16:30 Ezekyle wrote:On May 06 2011 16:15 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 05:56 Pelopidas wrote:On May 06 2011 04:50 tdt wrote:
Good changes. Thor reversion was totally needed since Carriers was only thing that could counter mass thor and his accompany units and we all know how hard carriers are to tech to. I really don't like it when people think like this. It's not necessary to be able to take on any composition head on. The same thing can be said of siege tanks, when you get 25+, ground units, even, zealots, immortals, and archons are useless. This does not mean that Thors and siege tanks are imbalanced however. They are both are horribly immobile and ridiculously expensive. As a result Protoss can abuse their superior mobility to attack a meching Terran's economy, and production in order to prevent the Terran player from quickly reaching a critical mass of Thors or other mech units. The Protoss player can also take more bases than Terran and reinforce their army much quicker with the aid of warp gates' front loaded cool down. The community has adopted a very toxic and selfish attitude toward balance imo. Nobody seems to care about real balance of match ups they just seem to want their race to be the strongest and easiest to play. Many people seem to have the idea that all units must have a hard counter, that is both easy to produce and use. This is a ridiculous idea and terrible for the game. It scares that blizzard seems to be taking many of these individuals complaints seriously, and as a result we are seeing a downward power creep. Unit power is reduced, and races become more homogenized. This results in a much less fun game. It now seems like Blizzard was lying when they said that they would take balance slowly and allow for the metagame to adapt to strong strategy. Its also quite troubling that Blizzard is also balancing for low level play. If Blizzard continues on this path I worry that Starcraft 2 will never evolve into something special, we will never see someone like Flash or Bisu. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to thor, and twice as many, 16 immortals won't beat 8 +3 defense Thor. Load up any unit tester, you'll instantly kill off 8 immortals with SC and kill the rest with regular attack. 16 Immortal is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had energy for that reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary energy bar. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. Problem with what you're saying is while 25 siege tanks may beat mass zealots, archons etc they won't beat 25 immorals. OTOH the supposed counter to marines, 50 banelings won't beat 50 +3 attack marines. Watch MKP/Mvp play, they'll kill off half the banelings before they reach the marines then the other half after that with marine splitting. 50 banelings is more supply, more money, Blizz's supposed counter, fails. Yeah that's IMBA. Blizz knew this and had made stim give +0 movement for a reason, and the whining you complain about removed a necessary weakness. Thankfully Blizz came back to their senses. Oh wait, that NEVER HAPPENED. Because there's more to Starcraft than 'my Prima strategy guide says immortals counter thors derp'. On May 06 2011 16:23 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 14:07 Hantak wrote:
i wonder... whats the real aim of feedback? is it to deplete a casters energy making it rather useless? is it to deal damage in a split second against casters?
I think that the energy on a thor will lead to odd situations, as it was mentioned before, like emp'ing your own units to avoid damage. And frankly is blizz's real intention to allow a single feedback (50 energy spell with a max of 4 casts per fully loaded HT) to deal 200 damage on a 400 hp unit that costs 300 minerals and 200 gas and takes a minute to be trained?)
On a different but related aim...
you know why almost no one uses battlecruisers? they are so expensive, take so much to train, and are so easily countered (vikings, corruptors, void rays/HT) that they are not worth the risk to be used. And its yamato ability, wich is THE reason why someone would get them, its almost completely shut down by the posibility of getting feedbacked. (losing loads of hp of a very expensive unit)
I wouldnt like THAT to happen to the thor, for it to become a 2nd battlecruiser again. BC's are used 100x more than Carriers. I don't hear you crying about that. And neither is he saying it's a good thing. You don't have to mention every balance issue in every post you ever make to be aware of them and consider them to be problems. There is lots of ways to deal with 50 marines fungel, banelings, lots of roach, broods. There is only 1 way for toss to deal with mass thor right now. Hence the change. Is that one way magic boxed void rays, carriers, chargelots, kiting with collosi or just abusing their immobility with blink stalkers?
I thought he meant guardian shield and forcefields and maybe storm 
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This is like the KA removal all over again 
I'm glad they gave the Thor energy again, seemed kinda weird when Terran Mech units all use energy for their spells but the Thor didn't.
Blizzard is pretty smart with their changes anyway. They have made a lot of "controversial" changes, but in the end it has turned out fine. Just like this Thor change will.
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On May 06 2011 17:34 Dommk wrote:This is like the KA removal all over again I'm glad they gave back Thor energy, seemed kinda weird when Terran Mech units all use energy for their spells but the Thor didn't. Blizzard is pretty smart with their changes anyway. They have made a lot of "controversial" changes, but in the end it has turned out fine. Just like this Thor change will.
Terran Mech units that use energy for their spells// The only Mech that has a spell it the Thor =P
depends on what you consider mech. Do you consider Air units like Banshee Cruisers Mech? I just consider them Air =D
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Infestor speed change is good, at least they'll stop running ahead of my army and getting killed now
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On May 06 2011 17:41 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 17:34 Dommk wrote:This is like the KA removal all over again I'm glad they gave back Thor energy, seemed kinda weird when Terran Mech units all use energy for their spells but the Thor didn't. Blizzard is pretty smart with their changes anyway. They have made a lot of "controversial" changes, but in the end it has turned out fine. Just like this Thor change will. Terran Mech units that use energy for their spells// The only Mech that has a spell it the Thor =P depends on what you consider mech. Do you consider Air units like Banshee Cruisers Mech? I just consider them Air =D
Well they can be repaired and look all Mechy, so I consider them Mech. The fact that some Fly is a matter of convenience
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On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/
Because people were starting to use them in TvP.
This goes against Blizzard's intended design for the matchup, which is for Terran players to only build Marauders and Vikings.
(See also: 1.1 tank nerfs.)
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On May 06 2011 18:06 ComTrav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/ Because people were starting to use them in TvP. This goes against Blizzard's intended design for the matchup, which is for Terran players to only build Marauders and Vikings. (See also: 1.1 tank nerfs.)
I think I've heard this before.
"Because people were using something other than Colossus in TvP
This goes against Blizzard intended design for the match up, which if for Protoss players to only build Colossus
(See Also: w.e patch they nerfed Storm AOE)"
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This game is starting to get pretty damn boring with every useful terran unit getting hit HARD with the nerf hammer:
first we had the reaper overnerf (from viable to worthless in a single patch), the tank overnerf (for tanks the things are pretty fragile with pretty low damage attacks; they used to be downright fearsome in Brood War) and now the thor.
In the meantime, a blatantly overpowered unit like the colossus (9 range, walks over units and up/down cliffs, incredibly mobile and sick dps and splash and a very decent amount of hitpoints) is apparently 100% fine.
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When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they keep it.
Humm...
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On May 06 2011 18:53 Leavzou wrote:
When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they remove it.
Humm...
I changed your post a bit to more accurately reflect what really happens 
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On May 06 2011 18:53 Leavzou wrote:
When XvP find something in the match up, they nerf it.
When PvX find something in the match up, they keep it.
Humm...
Yes, like Khaydarin Amulet. They sure kept that in there. Same with the Vortex+Archon, they kept the shit out of that. BTW they're both changes from the current balance patch.
Seriously: if the entire span of your memory covers less than one patch, you probably shouldn't be posting whiny observations on the history of patch changes.
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Thor pushes are crazy hard to stop in the mid-game as a protoss if there's strike cannons with just a cooldown. Going back to energy-based Thors is the way to go. The only way to seriously deal with Thor pushes as Protoss is to go Immortal, and strike cannons absolutely destroy thors and Protoss is left with little to deal with the Thors. This is a great PTR change and absolutely necessary. Anyone who says otherwise is obviously just trying to defend their race to make games easier for them. Learn how to use ghosts against HTs. This will take skill, not easy massing of Thors to easily roll your enemy.
Aside from this, I don't really see what adding 20 seconds to Warpgate Research is really going to do to change PVP. I suppose an early expansion could get up now without the 4gate coming, but doesn't this just delay the 4gate by 20 seconds? So what -- you can get another round of units out with your pre-warpgate Gateways and have a strong force regardless.
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EPT
