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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 06 2011 20:27 Elean wrote:
Instead of increasing the research time of warp gate, I would have prefered if they had changed the warpgate morph time, this way it would not delay hallucination research.
Also, the 10s morph time of the warpgates is the design flaw that made the timing push so powerfull. It creates a round of units that only need 10+5s to build instead of the normal ~30s. I had not considered the hallucination research... this means 20 more seconds of blind protoss, and I hate it.
Having gateways not be able to morph until their cooldown is over could work, but I also like your solution of longer morph time. Anything not to delay scouting :-/
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What is the purpose of giving Void Rays an upgrade of any kind? They're already a fairly high-tech unit. They're rather expensive, and fairly pigeonholed in their purpose. They certainly have their strengths certainly, but they have their vulnerabilities as well.
If the Void Ray was in beta without Flux Vanes, if it had never had them to begin with or if Blizzard had cut them before anyone saw it, you would never have noticed. You wouldn't be saying that the VR needs a speed upgrade. You would simply accept the unit for what it is. You're being prejudiced by your own biased viewpoint.
The role of the Voidray was much different in Beta. Here is a rough idea of what it was in 2008.
+ Show Spoiler +
"Warp Rays, also known as Void Rays now, are especially good against high hit point units, as well as buildings.
Often, the strategy that sees the most Void Ray use is against Zerg, using these units to do surprise attacks or joint attacks. Many Protoss players who scout Zerg players going mass ground units, will fast tech to Void Rays in hopes to catch them without anti-air capabilities. Void Rays are also great to do an attack on their base while you have a diversionary force distracting them in another place. 2-3 Warp Rays could take out a Hatchery much faster than say that equivalent in resources of Mutalisks."
They were speedy assassins, they effectively gave Protoss the ability to be mobile, you could attack two areas at once then join back up quickly to engage the main army. That was why the Speed upgrade was there, so they could get around quickly. They were the Protoss equivalent of Ling Run-bys and MMM Drops. The upgrade wasn't needed early in the game because there weren't many bases to hit, but once it hit late game and people are spread out the upgrade allowed it to continue its role. They also doubled up as armored anti-air
What they wanted it to be then and what it is now are two different things. The unit was a pain in the ass the balance. The Speed upgrade was nerfed by half once, but the final straw was when I believe Kiwikaki used then in-conjunction with Mothership for some ridiculously abusive play, sniping Tech, Hatcheries and PF's and saving every Voidray with Recall. The speed was too much, so they removed it and front loaded the damage, now it is just a slow flying death machine, very bland after the first 12mins of the game, there is no longer anything very interesting about it.
But SleepingDog is right, they really couldn't find a way to keep they way it was. No one was using it as they intended, no one built a bunch of Voidrays late/mid game to do surprise attacks-- they were 3.4 speed rape machines that people built en-masse as it didn't take very long to reach the critical number needed to become unstoppable.
The charge mechanic wasn't stopping anyone from abusing its high charged DPS. Maybe Blizzard failing isn't the right way to say it, people who used Voidrays in the mid/late game used them as deathball type unit, it found a role but not the one they wanted, instead of trying to force people to use it differently they seemed to have just accepted it for what it became.
Regardless, I'm almost positive they are going to be tinkering it come HOTS.
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On May 06 2011 19:55 NicolBolas wrote:
But last time I checked, Feedback can't kill them. If the Thor has full energy, Feedback does 200 damage. That's half of a Thor's life. Significant, certainly. But hardly crippling.
The main thing is that it weakens Strike Cannons, so that Thors aren't able to slaughter Immortals without aid from other units like Marines. I don't see the problem here. Are you saying that the only way Thors in TvP are worthwhile is if they are able to crush every ground unit the Protoss uses against them?
Are you kidding me? 200 hp for 50 energy is not crippling? Let me paint you a picture.
Scout terran massing thors.
Tip1: Dont make immortals. Make collossi 2 are enough
Tip2: make chargelots
Tip3: templar acrhives and warp in 4 (YES FOUR) templars (dont need storm)
Now just wait for terran to attack.The time it takes for a terran to get 1 thor to your base your templars should have enough energy to feedback it.
Considering an army of 30 marines 8 hellions and 5 thors by using your four templars you just dealt 1000 dmg in 3seconds (if you are a slow bronzie) to a 4200 hp army. Collosi shooting each 2 beams do another 500-600 dmg. Chargelots insta hit charge do yet another lets say 16*20=320 dmg. So after 3 seconds the terran thor army loses about 2000hp .
But ye....50% of an enemy army hp in 3 seconds is not really significant...
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On May 06 2011 20:05 ledgerhs wrote:
One wild idea would be to swap the positions with Sentries and Photon Cannons in the tech tree (gate unlocks cannon, forge unlocks sentries), and splitting the Cannon cost somehow between minerals and gas. 75/75 or 100/50 or 50/100.
This, in my mind, would give some wiggle room for techy builds to fall back on cannons while delaying tech should a 4gate hit. This would essentially nullify any WG push play unless the opponent is going for some low gas opening.
It would probably break a lot of things, but it's weird the Devs don't seem to look outside the box when trying to fix the issues.
This would simply make cannon rushes infinitely more common, as they no longer need a "fast forge". Stick up a proxy Gate, 2 cannons next to it, game over...
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On May 06 2011 22:57 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 19:55 NicolBolas wrote:
But last time I checked, Feedback can't kill them. If the Thor has full energy, Feedback does 200 damage. That's half of a Thor's life. Significant, certainly. But hardly crippling.
The main thing is that it weakens Strike Cannons, so that Thors aren't able to slaughter Immortals without aid from other units like Marines. I don't see the problem here. Are you saying that the only way Thors in TvP are worthwhile is if they are able to crush every ground unit the Protoss uses against them?
Are you kidding me? 200 hp for 50 energy is not crippling? Let me paint you a picture. Scout terran massing thors. Tip1: Dont make immortals. Make collossi 2 are enough Tip2: make chargelots Tip3: templar acrhives and warp in 4 (YES FOUR) templars (dont need storm) Now just wait for terran to attack.The time it takes for a terran to get 1 thor to your base your templars should have enough energy to feedback it. Considering an army of 30 marines 8 hellions and 5 thors by using your four templars you just dealt 1000 dmg in 3seconds (if you are a slow bronzie) to a 4200 hp army. Collosi shooting each 2 beams do another 500-600 dmg. Chargelots insta hit charge do yet another lets say 16*20=320 dmg. So after 3 seconds the terran thor army loses about 2000hp . But ye....50% of an enemy army hp in 3 seconds is not really significant...
Haha god you can't be serious. Totally disregarding all that speaks against your case... You'd have to play both sides of the battle to create that scenario.
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Seems like they should at least try having the Immortal's Hardened Shields provide immunity to the Thor's stun. Strike cannon would still be useful, but not quite as one-sided anymore. I think people claiming energy on the Thor are making their case a bit too strong(saying it becomes useless, or whatever), but it does seem to be a strange "fix" for the problem.
Granted, as others have said, Strike Cannon is probably getting changed due to Archons getting buffed and Blizz not wanting them to be expensive fodder. Fair enough. Perhaps these numerous problems--and those before, such as 'Frenzy' being put on the Ultra--show how poor the strike cannon ability is conceptually and in practice. It's redundant(barely does more than the Thor's normal attack), and the stunning has never sat right with the SC Universe(not to mention it has the potential for outrageously unfair battles, as described above; watch Thor vs Thor to see how silly the ability really is).
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i wonder if it wise to increase the range of infestor??cuz i think everytime i used infestor and roaches...it always got stuck in front....and with speed nerf going on...but i'm just wondering...i'm not even diamond so this might be interpret as stupid...but i like your guys opinion...
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On May 06 2011 19:55 NicolBolas wrote:
It was replaced, not removed. Void Rays got a buff with their bonus vs. Massive. Overall, they were made more viable and useful because of the change.
yeah, but voidrays are too slow, maybe the speedupgrade was to strong and made them to fast, as they are right now they are pretty bad in pvp. A small speedbuff like 2,5 instead of 2,25 would help alot and make them move faster than colossus.
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On May 06 2011 22:35 Dommk wrote:
The charge mechanic wasn't stopping anyone from abusing its high charged DPS. Maybe Blizzard failing isn't the right way to say it, people who used Voidrays in the mid/late game used them as deathball type unit, it found a role but not the one they wanted, instead of trying to force people to use it differently they seemed to have just accepted it for what it became.
Although I agree with everything you said, what bothers me most is that the removal of flux vanes was effectively Blizz admitting that they completely and utterly failed in their purpose to create a flying anti-building harassment unit for toss. The nerf ENCOURAGES people to use voidrays as "deathball"-unit, which makes me both angry and sad.
Toss is already such a "deathball"-race. Speed voidrays were one of the very little surprise attack units toss had. With amulet gone, the harassment-possibilities of toss were completely nullified. I know this sounds like a QQ right now, and I apologize for that, but eventually the deathball-toss-style will get figured out and then all toss players will get their behinds handed to them because the race offers no mid/lategame surprise strategies.
Making the upgrade a little bit more expensive, and maybe tweaking the anti-ground damage a bit (I'm thinking about lower initial and higher bonus-vs-armored damage) could have allowed them to stay in.
Anyways, this isn't the place for such a discussion, changes were made and it's done. Currently I'm more interested in the changed archons. Even if +1 range doesn't seem like much...it's actually an increase of range by FIFTY %, which I consider being huge.
EDIT:
On May 06 2011 23:12 ChaosWielder wrote:
Seems like they should at least try having the Immortal's Hardened Shields provide immunity to the Thor's stun.
I've never thought about that, this is an absolutely brilliant idea. In early game thor+strike-cannon all-ins would be much weaker, since early immortals would provide a perfect defense. But later on ghosts could EMP the (hardened) shields away, so that in mid/lategame toss would need a different response. Would make this a very dynamic set-up.
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On May 06 2011 22:57 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 19:55 NicolBolas wrote:
But last time I checked, Feedback can't kill them. If the Thor has full energy, Feedback does 200 damage. That's half of a Thor's life. Significant, certainly. But hardly crippling.
The main thing is that it weakens Strike Cannons, so that Thors aren't able to slaughter Immortals without aid from other units like Marines. I don't see the problem here. Are you saying that the only way Thors in TvP are worthwhile is if they are able to crush every ground unit the Protoss uses against them?
Are you kidding me? 200 hp for 50 energy is not crippling? Let me paint you a picture. Scout terran massing thors. Tip1: Dont make immortals. Make collossi 2 are enough Tip2: make chargelots Tip3: templar acrhives and warp in 4 (YES FOUR) templars (dont need storm) Now just wait for terran to attack.The time it takes for a terran to get 1 thor to your base your templars should have enough energy to feedback it. Considering an army of 30 marines 8 hellions and 5 thors by using your four templars you just dealt 1000 dmg in 3seconds (if you are a slow bronzie) to a 4200 hp army. Collosi shooting each 2 beams do another 500-600 dmg. Chargelots insta hit charge do yet another lets say 16*20=320 dmg. So after 3 seconds the terran thor army loses about 2000hp . But ye....50% of an enemy army hp in 3 seconds is not really significant...
Well, sure, except you're not supposed to make 30 marines 8 hellions and 5 thors. If you actually make a non-retarded composition the zealots die after the first hit and thats basically it.
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On May 06 2011 16:09 Citrone wrote:I guess Blizzard doesn't like Infestors kiting marines and fungling them just as they stim to try to run after the infestor...? *sigh*
The speed decrease it to make sure the infestors don't drift in front of the army. It hopefully will make infestors easy to control and casts their spells during the batter, rather than first and get focused down instantly.
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Am I missing something or does researching Strike Cannon magically gives your Protoss opponent Templar Archives?
Is cloak worthless, because you can get Observers or Cannons?
Do you see Protoss players not going with HTs, because Terran can get Ghosts?
We may have seen some changes that we didn't like, but they were never random.
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On May 06 2011 16:54 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/ Because ThorZain showed you could walk through any Toss composition like he was not even there with mass Thor. Other pros have sent vod, they have game tested it, and found it IMBA.
Yes, for 2 FULL weeks the Protoss community smashed their heads against a brick wall and a patch was the only solution. Zerg is crying for months against the "death ball" and Terran mech is nigh dead yet, it's because we have to explore more. ....
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On May 07 2011 00:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:54 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/ Because ThorZain showed you could walk through any Toss composition like he was not even there with mass Thor. Other pros have sent vod, they have game tested it, and found it IMBA. Yes, for 2 FULL weeks the Protoss community smashed their heads against a brick wall and a patch was the only solution. Zerg is crying for months against the "death ball" and Terran mech is nigh dead yet, it's because we have to explore more. ....
The answer to the death-ball is a different unit composition. Zerg is doing pretty good vs protoss nowadays and to reflect this
NASL
Darkforce - incontrol 2-0
July - cruncher 2-0
It is funny that when cruncher >> idra or mondragon all zerg whine IMBA and now he gets manrolled by a zerg you don't hear them half as loud as they used to be 
Zergs are doing better. That thor attack was just impossible to hold so they nerfed it. Blizzard is doing a great job with this patch thus far.What zerg needs to do is to stop going roach/hydra every single game vs protoss because it worked in 2010. The game evolved and now zerg has to evolve too which they are doing. Zerg is again; doing fine nowadays. That thor attack was proven to be too much.
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On May 07 2011 00:24 Vardant wrote:
Am I missing something or does researching Strike Cannon magically gives your Protoss opponent Templar Archives?
Is cloak worthless, because you can get Observers or Cannons?
Do you see Protoss players not going with HTs, because Terran can get Ghosts?
We may have seen some changes that we didn't like, but they were never random.
Patch 1.4: Researching 250mm Strike Cannons now automatically builds a Templar Archives in your opponent's base, regardless of race.
On a serious note, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that just because their opponent can do something automatically means that X tech path is shut down. I think it was Day9 that brought up scourge in BW; even though a Z would have scourge always patrolling the map, their opponents were still able to successfully drop either with brute force or with strategy, and this hasn't changed in SC2.
On May 07 2011 00:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 16:54 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/ Because ThorZain showed you could walk through any Toss composition like he was not even there with mass Thor. Other pros have sent vod, they have game tested it, and found it IMBA. Yes, for 2 FULL weeks the Protoss community smashed their heads against a brick wall and a patch was the only solution. Zerg is crying for months against the "death ball" and Terran mech is nigh dead yet, it's because we have to explore more. ....
Players actually were coming up with possible strategies(Tyler mentioned using Graviton Beam on his immortals before the strike cannon could do much damage), but they were incredibly flimsy and could be completely shut down with smart ghost play.
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On May 07 2011 00:40 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:24 Vardant wrote:
Am I missing something or does researching Strike Cannon magically gives your Protoss opponent Templar Archives?
Is cloak worthless, because you can get Observers or Cannons?
Do you see Protoss players not going with HTs, because Terran can get Ghosts?
We may have seen some changes that we didn't like, but they were never random.
Patch 1.4: Researching 250mm Strike Cannons now automatically builds a Templar Archives in your opponent's base, regardless of race. On a serious note, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that just because their opponent can do something automatically means that X tech path is shut down. I think it was Day9 that brought up scourge in BW; even though a Z would have scourge always patrolling the map, their opponents were still able to successfully drop either with brute force or with strategy, and this hasn't changed in SC2.
Basically this is because players (and mostly bronze-silver league players) think way to mechanically about the gameflow tbh. HE HAS THIS SO I CAN NEVER DO THAT.
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On May 07 2011 00:41 Flummie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:40 Daralii wrote:On May 07 2011 00:24 Vardant wrote:
Am I missing something or does researching Strike Cannon magically gives your Protoss opponent Templar Archives?
Is cloak worthless, because you can get Observers or Cannons?
Do you see Protoss players not going with HTs, because Terran can get Ghosts?
We may have seen some changes that we didn't like, but they were never random.
Patch 1.4: Researching 250mm Strike Cannons now automatically builds a Templar Archives in your opponent's base, regardless of race. On a serious note, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that just because their opponent can do something automatically means that X tech path is shut down. I think it was Day9 that brought up scourge in BW; even though a Z would have scourge always patrolling the map, their opponents were still able to successfully drop either with brute force or with strategy, and this hasn't changed in SC2. Basically this is because players (and mostly bronze-silver league players) think way to mechanically about the gameflow tbh. HE HAS THIS SO I CAN NEVER DO THAT.
I think it's more, "He is capable of doing this at some point, therefore I can never build this unit."
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Does anyone play on the PTR? I tried logging in last night and I waited 10 minutes to play someone, but literally no one was on.
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On May 07 2011 00:46 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:41 Flummie wrote:On May 07 2011 00:40 Daralii wrote:On May 07 2011 00:24 Vardant wrote:
Am I missing something or does researching Strike Cannon magically gives your Protoss opponent Templar Archives?
Is cloak worthless, because you can get Observers or Cannons?
Do you see Protoss players not going with HTs, because Terran can get Ghosts?
We may have seen some changes that we didn't like, but they were never random.
Patch 1.4: Researching 250mm Strike Cannons now automatically builds a Templar Archives in your opponent's base, regardless of race. On a serious note, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that just because their opponent can do something automatically means that X tech path is shut down. I think it was Day9 that brought up scourge in BW; even though a Z would have scourge always patrolling the map, their opponents were still able to successfully drop either with brute force or with strategy, and this hasn't changed in SC2. Basically this is because players (and mostly bronze-silver league players) think way to mechanically about the gameflow tbh. HE HAS THIS SO I CAN NEVER DO THAT. I think it's more, "He is capable of doing this at some point, therefore I can never build this unit."
That's even worse though
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On May 07 2011 00:37 Flummie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:On May 06 2011 16:54 tdt wrote:On May 06 2011 16:51 Garson wrote:
why the F do they add energy to thors again? =/ Because ThorZain showed you could walk through any Toss composition like he was not even there with mass Thor. Other pros have sent vod, they have game tested it, and found it IMBA. Yes, for 2 FULL weeks the Protoss community smashed their heads against a brick wall and a patch was the only solution. Zerg is crying for months against the "death ball" and Terran mech is nigh dead yet, it's because we have to explore more. .... The answer to the death-ball is a different unit composition. Zerg is doing pretty good vs protoss nowadays and to reflect this NASL Darkforce - incontrol 2-0 July - cruncher 2-0 It is funny that when cruncher >> idra or mondragon all zerg whine IMBA and now he gets manrolled by a zerg you don't hear them half as loud as they used to be Zergs are doing better. That thor attack was just impossible to hold so they nerfed it. Blizzard is doing a great job with this patch thus far.What zerg needs to do is to stop going roach/hydra every single game vs protoss because it worked in 2010. The game evolved and now zerg has to evolve too which they are doing. Zerg is again; doing fine nowadays. That thor attack was proven to be too much.
The point is it takes time and then some more time to find solutions.For the Thor attack, is waaaaay to soon to go all patchy on the game. You are fooling yourself because Protoss has had very, very little to adapt to. It was Terran and Zerg that had to find solutions.
What i really fear though, is that Blizzard already has a fixed mindset on what every MU should look like and is artificially imposing that on the game. I'll have to repeat myself, Terran mech is nigh dead and despite some casual players claiming "it's fine", GoOdy is prety much the only pro that forces it, not to great results in TvP. Would anyone be inclined to agree that maybe Blizz does not care about mech? Balance we might get, what about diversity and options?
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EPT
