EPTalso, i agree with mr. Longshank above me. Seeing these threads get derailed time and time again is a shame, and probably turns away some girls that would be interested in playing in one of these tournaments
Female ESL 1st place interview and Afterthoughts - Page 7
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Gann1
United States1575 Posts
also, i agree with mr. Longshank above me. Seeing these threads get derailed time and time again is a shame, and probably turns away some girls that would be interested in playing in one of these tournaments | ||
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
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SoylentCreep
Korea (South)176 Posts
On the gender issue, i like having cups and tournaments especially for women but I'd wish that female gamers would also take on the challenge to play in a "normal"/"male" tournament, as I don't think they are the worse gamers and could beat some of the male gamers out there.Flo being a grandmasters surely proves her abilities to keep up with other grandmasters.It would also provide quite the drama and more interest especially in the more unknown/smaller cups. | ||
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
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Venomous Drone
48 Posts
If there are gender separations in other sports its because they are physical sports and men are physicaly stronger than women, thats a fact. Thus women and men are NOT on equal footing. However i dont think theres physical or mental inequality in starcraft between males and females, no more than there can be between one male gamer and another male gamer. Womens mental structures are different? Yeah, but different doesnt mean worse. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
I feel like in many ways this is a lot like what i was talking about when I was saying we need home grown esports. http://www.youtube.com/askjoshy#p/search/11/2CAXidm7roE You can't expect shit to be born out of nowhere, woman playing computer games is a rarity, people should stand behind that, if computer games, expanded more towards woman, that'd be pretty cool. in counter strike there were plenty of woman teams, but that's because some of those teams made it into the spotlight, encouraging other woman to pickup the game and have fun with it. Let's say there's this lady whose name is, i don't know, lets call her: Destiny, or ROOTDestiny. So... ROOTDestiny walks here and starts reading this thread, cause she just started playing the game, she really enjoys it and hopes to win the Woman ESL in the future, winning IPL, NASL, GSL etc, may be goals too far appart for ROOTDestiny (not because she's a woman but because she just started playing) so she aims for Woman ESL, that sounds like a solid first step in the right direction. Well then ROOTDestiny starts reading all these retarded comments that instead of supporting or encouraging the previous winner are just completely brainless, baseless, and for the most part just a bunch of retarded nerds full of envy "IM PROBABLY BETTER THAN HER WHY SHE FAMOUS!!!" - well cause you're a boy, you've probably played computer games since you were a kid, your friends probably introduced you to computer games, it wasn't weird for you, then you found out there was a bunch of other nerds on the internet and made a lot of e-friends. ROOTDestiny probably had a tougher time, it is unlikely that many of her girl-friends played computer games, so she was less encouraged from the start to pick up this games, least of all play them competitively, im sure someone like flo could come up with a lot more obstacles and challenges about playing computer games as a girl. Heck if I had slept enough I could come up with a lot more obstacles for my imaginary character ROOTDestiny, but to make it simple, just think of every obstacle you had as a young nerd, and now multiply it x10 cause none of your best friends share or understand your interests or passion for video games. this is why I said it was a lot like when i was talking about home grown esports in North America and Europe vs Asia, mainly korea. As a cultural thing, we have a lot more barriers and obstacles to overcome, playing computer games doesn't have a wide acceptance in this hemisphere, and it is demotivating for the 'pro' player in general. In North America, there is only a few 'team houses' just recently, while in korea they've had them for years, where they have practice schedules, sleep schedules, and some or rather many, have coaches. It's not 2-3 people living together, its 10 people who share similar goals pushing each other to be the best. It's just a better environment than we've been able to create anywhere else. So yeah to me as a player, its discouraging when MC gets invited to the same leagues I get invited to without risking flying out or anything like that, cause on top of all these tournaments he attends and keeps winning all over the world, he has korea, he's had a better enviroment to practice in a country that widely accepts esports blablabla, don't really wanna get much into it, but he has an advantage, i don't believe it's a genetic advantage, I think its an enviromental one. (and before it comes out yah, Nazgul wrote a nice post on how sc2 in korea isnt as big as sc1 and we shouldn't cut their opportunities, and I love nazgul and that's very kind of him to say. All I was and im trying to say, to close on this topic is, without our own leagues, playing against people we know, people we play and people we know are beatable, esports will never take off in the west, period, if that's fine with everyone, whatever. Truth is koreans set the standard right now, everyone watches GSL, and anyone who's not in it, just isn't up there in most people's eyes. This makes Jinro for example a huge hero, and he should be. But not everyone had the same opportunities as Jinro, and he's far from being invincible outside of korea. In the public eye however, he's in GSL and that's where the real skillz is! so Gg rest of the world blablabla, watch the video and agree or disagree i don't care) back to ROOTDestiny, lets say she reads all these comments... she'd probably be really dissapointed and stop playing this game, cause the best thing that would come out of winning woman's ESL here seems to be a bunch of inmature jealous idiots who'd bash on her for no good reason. Now if people supported this and helped grow it and the comments were less retarded and more encouraging, maybe ROOTDestiny would be like "Awesome!!!! i'll tell my friend Stella Bonnell II about this! and the game that we all love would continue to grow in more directions, and cater to a much more diverse and new audience! yeaaaah!!!! ok i go sleep c u | ||
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CuHz
United States354 Posts
uhmm Flo marry me. i personally think girl gamers are fcking hott | ||
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport". Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so. Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no. Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion: TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds. I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport". [...] No one gave anyone anything. This league was made by women for women. I guess they asked the ESL for an admin account to set up a league on the ESL website and that was all the ESL had to do with the tournament. If you are hung up on the "female" idea, compare this to that US College league (forgot the name). It was made by students for matches against other colleges. They put up a stream and had shoutcasts of their LAN tournaments. Or the old-players Quake tournament in the BYOC area at QuakeCon for only players over thirty or forty or whatever it was. The positive side of leagues like this is that it makes more people experience for themselves how playing a video game in a competition feels like. It perhaps makes more people appreciate what the super-good players are doing in the GSL, NASL, etc. I like the idea of small special tournaments a lot and I do not see any downsides. | ||
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Scrubington
Canada475 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:13 gen.Sun wrote: So why arent you complaining in the high school league thread about dividing gamers across school lines? The reason there are high school cups is because generally younger people lack expereince in many things therefore GENERALLY lack knowledge/intellect when compared to slightly older people. However, being a male or female has nothing to do with intelligence, so why are there female cups? I really don't understand the logic behind this and it seems really odd/demeaning to me personally. Just my opinion though. | ||
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:23 Scrubington wrote: The reason there are high school cups is because generally younger people lack expereince in many things therefore GENERALLY lack knowledge/intellect when compared to slightly older people. However, being a male or female has nothing to do with intelligence, so why are there female cups? I really don't understand the logic behind this and it seems really odd/demeaning to me personally. Just my opinion though. That's kinda what I'm on about really. The school aspect is different too because its team based and doing it for your school pride. Unless there are feminazis, they're not doing it for...woman pride. I guess just with so many free to enter tournaments for anyone with no exclusions I don't see the point. I'm not bashing it or sayings its terrible, I just don't find this the most productive route to go. | ||
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lolsixtynine
United States600 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault." you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup. you are incorrect. YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period. there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender. User was temp banned for this post. It's actually a simple fact of evolutionary biology that makes females being among the best in the world at *anything* very unlikely, regardless of whether it's physical skill being tested. In terms of fighting for mates in primitive society, it's very easy for females to reproduce, while only the males of highest standing in the group will get to mate (and they will mate with many females). It therefore makes sense for males to have more variation, and females to have less variation. If males need to be at the top of the group to reproduce, they are better off with a 10% chance of being really good (mating many times), an 80% chance of being average (mating 0 times), and a 10% chance of being really bad (again, mating 0 times) than to have a 100% chance of being average (mating 0 times). For this reason, in general males in most mammalian species will make up the very best in the world as well as the very worst in the world at any given trait. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds. I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport". Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so. Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no. Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion: TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more. Can someone please ban this guy? Why don't you go and complain about every tournament that features Gold level and lower players? You are saying that unless woman who play SC2 compete in bikinis, they are not allowed to form their own community? Don't read about female SC2 cup if you don't give a shit about it. We wouldn't miss your witty comments, trust me. You just ignored everything that Catz said in his amazing post and gave some bullshit example about how you used to drive go-kart. l2life. | ||
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Helluva
United States651 Posts
Good interview. | ||
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SaiyAN
United States47 Posts
Isn't this admitting in a sense that female have some sort of disadvantage or obstacle that doesn't exist for guys? I don't understand how anyone could think that is true, and asking for separate leagues seems like a cop out for not having to try very hard. Do girls think it's too hard to win a tournament or something because there are 99% guys playing? Do what the rest of us do, practice and get better. By dropping all the girls in their own leagues it degrades the entirety of their games, no one will take it seriously. Furthermore, the argument that the player pool of Starcraft is saturated by guys which makes it "harder" for girls to win is a moot point. The individual girls playing the game have no gain or benefit by other girls winning tournaments if they themselves are not. It's the same thing that was poked fun at on some SNL in regards to the 2008 presidential election. Hillary was made to have said she didn't care if Sarah or another woman became president, SHE wanted to become president. Thus the argument that the population being males makes it too hard for females to succeed doesn't make sense if you look at what individuals actually want, which is to succeed themselves. It's the same thing as arguing that there are too many blond haired people winning tournaments, and brown haired people just don't seem to have a chance. What does that irrelevant aspect of one's self have to do with their ability to play a game like starcraft? It is the same for the gender issue, why should one's physical body make any difference in your apm or strategic thinking? The real way to solve this is for the girls of the community to awaken. Get out of this mindset that they need their own leagues for "more fair competition", and just get as good as they can. This flo person saying girls should have their own leagues is representative of this apathetic and submissive mindset, which only allows for these female leagues to continue to be seen as legitimate, because the players themselves are ok with it. So wake up, open your eyes, think about this. This isn't going to transform girls into superstar starcraft players, but it will at least break the shackles that consist of these female leagues and tournaments and pave the way for females to realize true success, if they want it. | ||
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Deletrious
United States458 Posts
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Scrubington
Canada475 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:44 SaiyAN wrote: “Some people have downgraded me for entering Female tournament, but like any other sports I think girls should have their own section too, especially most of the players out there are guys.” Isn't this admitting in a sense that female have some sort of disadvantage or obstacle that doesn't exist for guys? I don't understand how anyone could think that is true, and asking for separate leagues seems like a cop out for not having to try very hard. Do girls think it's too hard to win a tournament or something because there are 99% guys playing? Do what the rest of us do, practice and get better. By dropping all the girls in their own leagues it degrades the entirety of their games, no one will take it seriously. Furthermore, the argument that the player pool of Starcraft is saturated by guys which makes it "harder" for girls to win is a moot point. The individual girls playing the game have no gain or benefit by other girls winning tournaments if they themselves are not. It's the same thing that was poked fun at on some SNL in regards to the 2008 presidential election. Hillary was made to have said she didn't care if Sarah or another woman became president, SHE wanted to become president. Thus the argument that the population being males makes it too hard for females to succeed doesn't make sense if you look at what individuals actually want, which is to succeed themselves. It's the same thing as arguing that there are too many blond haired people winning tournaments, and brown haired people just don't seem to have a chance. What does that irrelevant aspect of one's self have to do with their ability to play a game like starcraft? It is the same for the gender issue, why should one's physical body make any difference in your apm or strategic thinking? The real way to solve this is for the girls of the community to awaken. Get out of this mindset that they need their own leagues for "more fair competition", and just get as good as they can. This flo person saying girls should have their own leagues is representative of this apathetic and submissive mindset, which only allows for these female leagues to continue to be seen as legitimate, because the players themselves are ok with it. So wake up, open your eyes, think about this. This isn't going to transform girls into superstar starcraft players, but it will at least break the shackles that consist of these female leagues and tournaments and pave the way for females to realize true success, if they want it. I completely agree with this, and I know people are saying "These threads allways turn into an argument like this" but we have strong opinions about this because it just makes no sense whatsoever to us, so please, don't complain that these types of threads "allways turn into this", and instead try to help us see your side of the discussion. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
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