Let me introduce the winner of Female ESL Cup : flo
EZ: Hi, introduce to us about yourself flo: Hi everyone my name is flo~ which is a shorten from my real name, I live in California, 18 years old, a senior in highschool, I enjoy playing games
EZ: So how did you pick starcraft over other games? Have you played any othergames competetively? flo: yeah I was in a profesional Counter Strike team, which I played this game for 8 years and kind of got old for me I played Starcraft I but never at a competitive level, when Starcraft II got released I saw my brother playing it and decide to move on to this game EZ: You just won the Female ESL Cup #5, how do you feel about that accomplishment? flo: I feel pretty proud of myself, I practice a lot for it ^_^
EZ: How do you heard of this event and how did you prepare yourself for it? flo: Since I saw the post on TL that they are doing it again I start playing 5 days a week, mostly with friends and ladder.
EZ: Before you enter this tournament how far do you think you will go? flo: Although I was really nervous, I thought I can get placed pretty high if not win the tournament
EZ: Is there any other players in the tourny you are watching out for? flo: To be honest I don't know any other players other than kelly, but I think i have a good chance versus her too.
EZ: Being a terran player, what are your most/least commfortable match ups? flo: TvP is definately my favorite match up, and I think TvT is annoying.... ><|||
^Her setup, which is pretty standard for most competitive SC2 player ^_^
EZ: What are your goals for starcraft II in general flo: hmm.. get better, join a sponsor team and get my name out there
EZ: Playing Starcraft II as a girl, what are some of the challenege you faced? flo: Some people have downgraded me for entering Female tournament, but like any other sports I think girls should have their own section too, especially most of the players out there are guys. My family also think I should be doing something more productive and I completely understand that, but I really have a passion for the game
EZ: Besides starcraft II and just games in general, what else do you do for fun? flo: Shopping and chilling with friends ~
EZ: Anything you want to the audience and fans? flo: Thanks everyone for all the support, right now I am relatively unknown but I want ot get my name out there.
To start off, yes I am aware of that this tournament brings out tension and the urge for some people to... ie."I WANNA MAKE EVERYTHING LOOK LIKE A BAD THING" please be constructive when being critical. However there you can't take away any individual who has the passion to dedicate to this game no matter how the enviroment might be
There are several very obvious advantages and disavantages for female to play a game in a community where are full of guys, some(disadvantages) may be be discouraging, others may be 9000x more discouraging. The fact that certain players get so much "undeserved" attention fundamentally is that the others GAVE THEM THE ATTENTION So is that really the subject's problem that he/she recieve so much spotlight? Or is it the viewer themselves who created this dilema?
I hope certain individuals truely enjoy watching streams/players that you think are "bad", keep watching for hours solely to put negative comments out there Not saying it's horrible to express your oppinion, just the fact that putting certain judgments in public chat aren't really constructive/helpful to both the players and other viewers. (There are ways to critize in a well mannered/constructive way, which is most of my stream chat and I appreciate that a lot)
"People watch/play Starcraft2 streams/vods/articles for many different reasons, some wants to make a living being pro, some wants achieve a skill level where they'll be satisfy with themselves, some wants to beat their friends in a game, some just wants to be entertained Think about what is your goal and if what you are doing right now contributes to it, if it's not helping, please move on to other stuff for your own good. "
There were some hiccups, where they seem to just happen anyway no matter how well prepared you are. ( ie. I overslepted 1 hour)
^Read this spoiler (and the bottom quote) first if you are going to comment!!!! This is my first time in this situation so I would like to rant a bit, this is not just about this tournament but also what I think about how people act in SC2 community
I think I need to highlight this from my spoiler "People watch/play Starcraft2 streams/vods/articles for many different reasons, some wants to make a living being pro, some wants achieve a skill level where they'll be satisfy with themselves, some wants to beat their friends in a game, some just wants to be entertained Think about what is your goal and if what you are doing right now contributes to it, if it's not helping, please move on to other stuff for your own good. "
~EZPikachu
Ok watching those comments got me pretty irritated, are these discussion even necessary? Let's just stop for a second and let me tell you what happens on the other end.
Luway, one of the female grandmaster player in Taiwan server missed the tournament, but the most important thing is, the Taiwanese community as a whole been encouraging and keep tabs on her. Her team, RUSH ( Sen's former team) and all other teams in TW also help promoted this event to the community, regardless of their players are in this tourney or not.
People stay up to 2-3 am on a fucking monday (when the event started) and cut sleep/work solely to support one of its member entering the foreign scene. The community as a whole have been helping her throughout fixing latency issues, practice, and any other obstacles in the way. Yes of course there are other voices, but people keep the negativity to themselves and continue to pursuit whatever they really have in mind.
^YOU SEE??? YOU SEEE?????
Thanks for watching My Stream link Props to Suna/Vampirelady who hosted this tournament My co-caster QBabyStorm for doing such an awesome job co-casting (it's our first time working together too rofl... went so smooth consider 1st time co casting together) All the players for be courageous to showup and play regardless of skill and every single viewer on my stream for making the entire expirience positive, educational, and entertaining
you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
i care because i share (presumably) the same desire as suna does (equality among the genders for gamers), but she goes about it in the worst possible way.
embracing equality among genders helps ALL of us. it helps the community tremendously in just about every way. female cups hurt it. it says, basically, "you cannot win the normal tournament; we need to make a special one where only players of this lower caliber can enter."
why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
I am not talking about girls exclusively this is also about certain figures like incontrol destiny and other popular streamers
That keyboard looks like a dell to me, if so, is there a way to know wich one it is, because I've been trying to find a dell keyboard i tried and loved some time ago. Sorry bout the offtopic and of course congrats to her!
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Don't derail this thread. If you disagree with his personal opinions, send him a PM.
and I know it's a chanceless hope, but please don't post in here if you're part of the whole anti-female cup attention thing. I'm on the side that hates over-obsessive attention giving to women but seriously, it's a female, for fun tournament, go find something else to complain about.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: i care because i share (presumably) the same desire as suna does (equality among the genders for gamers), but she goes about it in the worst possible way.
embracing equality among genders helps ALL of us. it helps the community tremendously in just about every way. female cups hurt it. it says, basically, "you cannot win the normal tournament; we need to make a special one where only players of this lower caliber can enter."
why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
how can you not see how laughably misguided this is
On April 25 2011 20:09 NeonFox wrote: That keyboard looks like a dell to me, if so, is there a way to know wich one it is, because I've been trying to find a dell keyboard i tried and loved some time ago. Sorry bout the offtopic and of course congrats to her!
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
So why arent you complaining in the high school league thread about dividing gamers across school lines?
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
If you suddenly cut off my penis my APM would at least drop by 100, maybe more. Its presence is felt.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
If you suddenly cut off my penis my APM would at least drop by 100, maybe more. Its presence is felt.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: i care because i share (presumably) the same desire as suna does (equality among the genders for gamers), but she goes about it in the worst possible way.
embracing equality among genders helps ALL of us. it helps the community tremendously in just about every way. female cups hurt it. it says, basically, "you cannot win the normal tournament; we need to make a special one where only players of this lower caliber can enter."
why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
Why does people have leagues/tournaments that are country specific? Or any group specific for that matter? Why does that have to have a problem? No one here is claiming we should divide all tournaments into different genders. I just find it weird that people get so butt hurt over when people have a tournament that is gender specific while there are countless of other tournaments out there that separate people, be it by region, skill-level, community-based or whatever. By your standards all gold/platinum tournaments I've seen are bad. I'd venomly disagree on this as I've gotten a lot of fun out of those myself. Who are you to decide what is "good" or "bad" format?
Congratulations on the win, and nice interview. It's always nice to see girls getting into gameing as it helps break several of the stigmas of who gamers are.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Don't look at it so harsly.. there are tonnes of small tournaments for specific countries for instance. As long as theses kinds of tournaments don't get more attention than the GSL for instance, it's not bad for e-sports at all, and nothing's stopping the female players from joining a mixed tournament.
I see your point though, but I guess there simply are so few female gamers that the few that there are need to be highlighted a little. Just my two cents. Pz.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Assuming everyone branded female tournaments as a "bad idea" wouldn't it also be a good idea to ban "silver/gold/plat/diamond league only" tournaments? they all segregate the community into sections that don't include the "top tier" players.
"X division and under" tournaments are popular because people enter them thinking "there's a chance i can actually go far/win this". Which is a hell of a lot more motivating than "Well I have no chance of winning this craft cup, but at least I know i'm playing with the best."
I don't understand why people are suggesting that a female only cup is damaging in any way. If nothing else, tournaments like this work as a much better motivator to convince more girls to pursue a pro gaming career.
The only argument i can extract from these people is "If you give girls their own cup, they wont be motivated to improve and join the craftcups of this world". Which is bizzare, there arent enough female only tournaments for a truely determined girl to make a living off of, so eventually they're going to have to make the natural progression up to bigger cups and leagues anyway. And if they are not interested in playing for anything other than fun, why begrudge them that and say they can't have a fun tournament they have a chance of running deep in?
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Hate to burst your bubble but male and female brain structure is vastly different in all species. Does it provide an edge? Who knows the studies haven't been done. However, I don't believe there is a prize pool for the tournament so no one is "missing out" on anything -- It's just an excuse for female gamers to get together and play, I don't see why this would upset anyone.
That being said -- nice interview, congrats to flo~
All I want to say in this sea of trolling is that you could have used some standard pics of yourself instead of looking like a facebook camwhore; it in no way helps to legitimize you as a gamer.
i care because i share (presumably) the same desire as suna does (equality among the genders for gamers), but she goes about it in the worst possible way.
embracing equality among genders helps ALL of us. it helps the community tremendously in just about every way. female cups hurt it. it says, basically, "you cannot win the normal tournament; we need to make a special one where only players of this lower caliber can enter."
why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
I will apologize beforehand if this offends anyone, but equality in relation to males and females is quite frankly idiotic. Equality is a filter like zero-tolerance where you can just turn your brain off, not actually exercise logic, reason, and judgement, and use defined equivalencies to make decisions for you.
Why segment things? Because the reality is men and women are inherently different both physically and mentally. What should be emphasized is fairness, not equality. Unfortunately, what is 'fair' is ambiguous and up to the collective pooling of logic, reason, and judgment to determine. In a day and age where people dodge responsibility and fear being labeled as sexist or racist due to a personal judgment, equality is often embraced rather than fairness.
In an equal world, women should compete on the same athletic platform as men. We all know that would be disastrous on multiple levels. This is the zero-deviation approach. What reality shows is that in relation to something like basketball, we exercise the idea of fairness. It's fair that women have their own league with their own regulations. It's fair that as a result of its lesser popularity due to the level of competition, they are paid less. And, it would only be fair that if one day, a female basketball player as competent as a man emerged on the scene, that she be given a shot at an NBA contract.
So, with that in mind, equality is something people like to talk about but it's like communism -- sounds great, doesn't work. The question is that by a communal standard, if such a thing as a female-SC2 tournament is fair.
On April 25 2011 20:27 Stark1 wrote: All I want to say in this sea of trolling is that you could have used some standard pics of yourself instead of looking like a facebook camwhore; it in no way helps to legitimize you as a gamer.
See now what you've just done there is piss into the sea of trolling
On April 25 2011 20:27 Stark1 wrote: All I want to say in this sea of trolling is that you could have used some standard pics of yourself instead of looking like a facebook camwhore; it in no way helps to legitimize you as a gamer.
I'm not sure the mods will understand the subtlety of your post.
Lots of girls don't enjoy gaming for cultural reasons (my gf included). A female cup is a nice way to encourage more ladies to take up the game. It's the same reason we have a NASL even though the GSL is technically better, to promote the game. Of course the long term goal is to get rid of the taboo altogether and have a single league, since none of the limitants that separate the sexes in physical competitions exist in SC2.
Also, you may not realize this, but heterosexual males do tend to give females extra attention. This strange phenomenon ensures the survival of the human race. Why anyone thinks that is unexpected or immoral is beyond me.
On April 25 2011 20:19 EZPikachu wrote: The sad and important thing is you don't find what's in the spoiler in Chinese version because people choose to act different in other community
Genders will and forever will be treated/perceived differently--this is especially true in western countries. Obtaining a level where the attitude towards both genders is somewhat acceptable is going to be a challenge, eliminating it is impossible.
Segregation, however, always will work against it. It is great to bring attention to the community by creating something like an "female cup", but it only gets the attention it because of the problems you believe exists within the community-- as much as females are treated differently, there are two ends of the spectrum, one that praises and the another that scorns. You can't rid the community of the scorn without also ridding the glorification also. Segregation in a sense, works towards the opposite of what you want to achieve, but that isn't to say the good can't out weigh the bad, but just realize that every time you do it to improve the good you are going to also increase the bad
On April 25 2011 20:39 Sueco wrote: Oh stop freaking out ppl.
....................Also, you may not realize this, but heterosexual males do tend to give females extra attention. This strange phenomenon ensures the survival of the human race. Why anyone thinks this is unexpected or immoral is beyond me.
I watched this event last night and enjoyed it. Personally im all for both genders to mix on every SC2 tournament available and be the matches deciding who is the most solid player.
Just as an example: noone stopped a girl from trying getting qualified for one of the previous GSL's (Artosis made a video of it btw so i'll leave it here) and thats the way its supposed to be. You get a spot on a major event like the GSL because of the results you're able to put out on your matches and not because of your gender.
Still, i enjoyed this event and look at it as some way of "positive discrimination" and tend to overlook any "negativity" that people might try to associate to it. For me, as a viewer, it was fun to watch and listen and hopefully we'll soon get one of the female SC2 gamers standing tall in the crowd by winning one of the so many events currently available for SC2 (an weekly online tournament would be a interesting first step imo).
I collaborate with other 2 members of the community on a liveshow called GGRated (http://www.justin.tv/ggrated) so if any of you feel confortable enough to show up on skype and add some oppinions and talk about the event or anything SC2 related you might find relevant just PM me and we'll gladly get you in for a future episode.
I don't understand how anyone could have a problem with this. I'm all for spotlighting female gamers, hopefully that will bring more into our community, and that's a good thing right?
I agree with sueco. This stupid discussion always starts when there is anything related to female gamers.
I won't just copy&paste his post but people really should stop freaking out. Female gamers will always will receive more attention. At least when now there is so few of them. It's a completely normal behaviour.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: i care because i share (presumably) the same desire as suna does (equality among the genders for gamers), but she goes about it in the worst possible way.
embracing equality among genders helps ALL of us. it helps the community tremendously in just about every way. female cups hurt it. it says, basically, "you cannot win the normal tournament; we need to make a special one where only players of this lower caliber can enter."
why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
how can you not see how laughably misguided this is
On April 25 2011 20:05 Zidane wrote: I'm pretty sure only bad players actually care that female gamers have their own league. Anyway... grats on the win.
Its only bad players that hate on female gaming because they envy girls playing tournaments while they can't.
Then they try to bring up reasons that sound logical about why there should be no female tournaments, it divides the community and all that blabla
This is tiring and prevents the esports community from maturing. On the other hand, the exact same misogynist, non-sportsmanship, envy attitude is present in other sports, too (i.e. football), so we probably have to live with the haters for a while.
I've yet to find someone really succesful in his sports who is against female tournaments.
Congrats to flo. I hope that there will be more tournaments, everything that broadens the scene is good for the scene as far as I'm concerned - so keep up the good work.
On April 25 2011 20:05 Zidane wrote: I'm pretty sure only bad players actually care that female gamers have their own league. Anyway... grats on the win.
Its only bad players that hate on female gaming because they envy girls playing tournaments while they can't.
Then they try to bring up reasons that sound logical about why there should be no female tournaments, it divides the community and all that blabla
This is tiring and prevents the esports community from maturing. On the other hand, the exact same misogynist, non-sportsmanship, envy attitude is present in other sports, too (i.e. football), so we probably have to live with the haters for a while.
I've yet to find someone really succesful in his sports who is against female tournaments.
People who are successful can't just voice their opinions, especially in such a controversial issue. Even if a pro is against these events, he can't say it publicly or everyone would hate him.
I don't think there is anything wrong with tournament like this. It may give girls confidence to try and go pro. And i think most of the people would agree that having pro sc2 players would be pretty cool.
OMG dream GF. No complain about gaming instead she'll do it w/ you and can even teach you!
Seriously This is so cool they got this setup I wish I could watch VODs... For you Neanderthals 1) they don't want to be in a sausage fest 2) more girls will feel it's okay to play since it's just a numbers game and @ 100000 male to 1 female right now they'd get stomped and discouraged so it's best to have girls league to start em out and make sport grow with females.
[QUOTE]On April 25 2011 21:45 perestain wrote: [QUOTE]On April 25 2011 20:05 Zidane wrote: snip I've yet to find someone really succesful in his sports who is against female tournaments.
[/QUOTE] I am only semi successful amateur started in wrestling/football and BB in HS and have zero problems with it. No athlete I know would since it furthers sport. In this case Starcraft 2.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
If you suddenly cut off my penis my APM would at least drop by 100, maybe more. Its presence is felt.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
If you suddenly cut off my penis my APM would at least drop by 100, maybe more. Its presence is felt.
hahahaha! this man makes an extremely good point!
i think these tournaments encourage females and give them some room to make a name for themselves in an otherwise male dominated field.
Great job in the tournament flo! I watched some of your games and it was really impressive. I love seeing other girls in the SC2 scene and it would be so awesome for you to get you name out there! I'll be looking out for you in the future. Good luck to you.
On April 25 2011 20:09 NeonFox wrote: That keyboard looks like a dell to me, if so, is there a way to know wich one it is, because I've been trying to find a dell keyboard i tried and loved some time ago. Sorry bout the offtopic and of course congrats to her!
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: i care because i share (presumably) the same desire as suna does (equality among the genders for gamers), but she goes about it in the worst possible way.
embracing equality among genders helps ALL of us. it helps the community tremendously in just about every way. female cups hurt it. it says, basically, "you cannot win the normal tournament; we need to make a special one where only players of this lower caliber can enter."
why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
Why does people have leagues/tournaments that are country specific? Or any group specific for that matter? Why does that have to have a problem? No one here is claiming we should divide all tournaments into different genders. I just find it weird that people get so butt hurt over when people have a tournament that is gender specific while there are countless of other tournaments out there that separate people, be it by region, skill-level, community-based or whatever. By your standards all gold/platinum tournaments I've seen are bad. I'd venomly disagree on this as I've gotten a lot of fun out of those myself. Who are you to decide what is "good" or "bad" format?
Nation specific tournaments have players who share the same culture. This connects them together and strengthens their bond. "Being female" isnt a separate culture and having separate tournaments for them is as bad as having separate tournaments for "asian guys living in the US", "french speaking canadians" or "black people" or whatever. Those do not represent the whole national culture and thus creates the perception of "being different from the rest of the nation" and thus it creates a breach in the national culture instead of binding it.
As some other posters have pointed out there is no difference in the physical abilities required to play SC2 between men and women, so there should not be a separation in this "sport" unlike there is in athletics and most team sports.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Wrong.
How so - in the physical requirements for playing Starcraft? Male and female arms are equally capable of moving a mouse fast and - if we are accepting equality - the brains of both genders are equally capable of making correct decisions.
On April 25 2011 20:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I don't understand how anyone could have a problem with this. I'm all for spotlighting female gamers, hopefully that will bring more into our community, and that's a good thing right?
It is a good thing, because ... ?
Men and women are NOT the same when it comes to subconscious and psychology. Thus it is kinda "natural" - and good - that they prefer different types of games. Embrace the difference rather than "force similarity", because this world would be rather boring if everyone likes the same thing.
Winning a tournament is an achievement, but lets face it ... this one gets most of the publicitiy due to the winner being a female. If she had won a mixed gender tournament that might be considered an achievement - in the same way it would be as it would be for a male competitor -, but since this was a purely female tournament it isnt anything to talk about.
So far I have seen no reason for separate male / female tournaments other than "it brings more girls to play SC2", but that isnt enough IMO. Any other reasons?
Oh and ... go and win a "regular tournament" now ...
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Wrong.
How so - in the physical requirements for playing Starcraft? Male and female arms are equally capable of moving a mouse fast and - if we are accepting equality - the brains of both genders are equally capable of making correct decisions.
You are just saying this randomly, I could just about say the opposite randomly as well and who is to tell who is right ?
There are plenty of studies giving results that tend to prove your theory and plenty of other studies with opposite results. Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
On April 25 2011 19:58 Flo~ said: Some people have downgraded me for entering Female tournament, but like any other sports I think girls should have their own section too, especially most of the players out there are guys.
Chess works similarly, women are allowed to compete in divisions for both genders as well as female only divisions, while men are only allowed to compete in the divisions for both genders. This is probably necessary in order to stimulate growth in the female department of e-sports, but I think we may be trying to enforce something that is not meant to be.
If we assume that they will be worse than the males, which is what we do when we make female only leagues, isn't it? Nobody would ever want to watch female leagues over leagues of superior quality, like the GSL. Will we be able to sustain female only tournaments when they do not generate viewers?
On April 25 2011 20:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I don't understand how anyone could have a problem with this. I'm all for spotlighting female gamers, hopefully that will bring more into our community, and that's a good thing right?
this People should really stop hating on this, its just ignorant
Gratz for winning this, flo! Hope we will see more of those tourneys in the future.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Wrong.
How so - in the physical requirements for playing Starcraft? Male and female arms are equally capable of moving a mouse fast and - if we are accepting equality - the brains of both genders are equally capable of making correct decisions.
You are just saying this randomly, I could just about say the opposite randomly as well and who is to tell who is right ?
There are plenty of studies giving results that tend to prove your theory and plenty of other studies with opposite results. Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
Are you really suggesting that women don't have the same tools to play SC2? If you've got two arms, some fingers and at least one eye, you can play; it's not a physical limitation. The difference is just practice time, interest, or as others have put it, cultural.
On April 25 2011 19:58 Flo~ said: Some people have downgraded me for entering Female tournament, but like any other sports I think girls should have their own section too, especially most of the players out there are guys.
Chess works similarly, women are allowed to compete in divisions for both genders as well as female only divisions, while men are only allowed to compete in the divisions for both genders. This is probably necessary in order to stimulate growth in the female department of e-sports, but I think we may be trying to enforce something that is not meant to be.
If we assume that they will be worse than the males, which is what we do when we make female only leagues, isn't it? Nobody would ever want to watch female leagues over leagues of superior quality, like the GSL. Will we be able to sustain female only tournaments when they do not generate viewers?
I dunno I wouldn't have a problem I think it would be fun to watch. Host on all female tournament and see what happens it will probably get tons of views. The production would have to be good though.
There also might be the problem of getting enough girls to play.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Wrong.
How so - in the physical requirements for playing Starcraft? Male and female arms are equally capable of moving a mouse fast and - if we are accepting equality - the brains of both genders are equally capable of making correct decisions.
You are just saying this randomly, I could just about say the opposite randomly as well and who is to tell who is right ?
There are plenty of studies giving results that tend to prove your theory and plenty of other studies with opposite results. Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
Are you really suggesting that women don't have the same tools to play SC2? If you've got two arms, some fingers and at least one eye, you can play; it's not a physical limitation. The difference is just practice time, interest, or as others have put it, cultural.
So you are not using your brain when you play SC2 ? Just your arms and eyes ?
There have been some interesting studies that have proven that females have a harder time with spaciality than males (I don't know if that word exists in english, I mean just representing things in a 3D perspective in your mind).
There are plenty of things that the female and male minds process differently. That is pretty much a fact... the real question is whether this is induced by education and society or if we are born this way. And also whether or not these differences have a baring on playing RTS games.
These threads always devolve into (Y GURL HAS SPECIAL TOURNY?) + the random people posting about how hot/desirable the winner is. I think it encapsulates the male mind pretty well.
On April 25 2011 23:28 Geiko wrote: Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
So maybe women also shouldn't be allowed to manage a company or fulfill any other important role in society because their "brains don't work the same way"?! I mean, if they even can't compete on the same level in a RTS game we should really consider this in real life, shouldn't we? -.- I think there's no difference between men and women considering their intellectual/mental capacities. If any, women can use their capacities better than men...
Congrats to flo for winning this! She definitely deserved the win if she practiced 5 days a week.
Nevertheless, I am curious if other participants share her opinion that "like [in] any other sports I think girls should have their own section too". Is there any possibility to get statements of random/top10/top5 participants for the next tournament? I know many emancipated women who want to compete with men in every given situation(ignoring physical superiority/inferiortiy) and - assuming that computer games apply to these situations - her opinion just doesn't fit with the ones of the women I know. Would be great if we can get some more opinions(of people actually involved) and maybe understand the reasoning pro/contra female-only tournaments/leagues.
On April 26 2011 00:36 ZeaL. wrote: These threads always devolve into (Y GURL HAS SPECIAL TOURNY?) + the random people posting about how hot/desirable the winner is. I think it encapsulates the male mind pretty well.
On April 25 2011 20:09 annul wrote: why? skill is skill. presence of a penis does not mean you get +100 APM. presence of a vagina does not mean you miss chrono timings or larva injects. why segment it?
If you suddenly cut off my penis my APM would at least drop by 100, maybe more. Its presence is felt.
On April 25 2011 23:28 Geiko wrote: Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
So maybe women also shouldn't be allowed to manage a company or fulfill any other important role in society because their "brains don't work the same way"?! I mean, if they even can't compete on the same level in a RTS game we should really consider this in real life, shouldn't we? -.- I think there's no difference between men and women considering their intellectual/mental capacities. If any, women can use their capacities better than men...
Aw come on, I never said anything like that. You should check out this short paper on the subject : http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html. Men and Women's brains don't work alike and aren't good at the same things in a general sense. That's ALL I'm saying.
A few things to note about my post : -The word "general" is important : some women are way better then most men at science and geometric abstraction, but figures show that overall, men seem to be doing better in these domains. -Women have relational capacities that are in average better than men's and that would maybe make them better CEOs than men for example, I don't see how you could have concluded the exact contrary from my post. -Whether or not this is from education or genes is still a question -Whether or not this has anything to do with how well you are able to play SC2 is still a question.
I'm just saying that blindly saying that men and women have the same mental capacities is plain wrong. (and once again, that is NOT implying that one is superior over the other)
But i use to play cs competitively and i had a couple female friends who played..and it suuuuucked when they got a sponsor to fly them down to mexico for a female tourney even tho my team(with one of the girls on it) could smash the all female one >.< I dont have anything against female leagues but it can suck for some people
On April 25 2011 20:09 NeonFox wrote: That keyboard looks like a dell to me, if so, is there a way to know wich one it is, because I've been trying to find a dell keyboard i tried and loved some time ago. Sorry bout the offtopic and of course congrats to her!
looks like steelseries 6gv2 to me
Not at all, it looks more like a Dell SK-8115.
Yeah, the 6gv2 has the branding on the top right corner and the dell has it above home.
And I also watched it live, her comeback was really nice.
But i use to play cs competitively and i had a couple female friends who played..and it suuuuucked when they got a sponsor to fly them down to mexico for a female tourney even tho my team(with one of the girls on it) could smash the all female one >.< I dont have anything against female leagues but it can suck for some people
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
What? He was banned for saying that girls are just as good as guys and it's a cultural standard that is at the root of separate leagues?
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
Okay, then go complain to big leagues about how they are not doing enough to bring in female gamers and female interest in general.
You are attacking the opposite of what you should attack, if you truly want a community where males and females are given equal opportunity.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
What? He was banned for saying that girls are just as good as guys and it's a cultural standard that is at the root of separate leagues?
Coed was cool I thought. :<
I'm guessing this is an argument that has a history on this forum. Otherwise, I don't see why he would be banned.
On April 25 2011 23:28 Geiko wrote: Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
So maybe women also shouldn't be allowed to manage a company or fulfill any other important role in society because their "brains don't work the same way"?! I mean, if they even can't compete on the same level in a RTS game we should really consider this in real life, shouldn't we? -.- I think there's no difference between men and women considering their intellectual/mental capacities. If any, women can use their capacities better than men...
Aw come on, I never said anything like that. You should check out this short paper on the subject : http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html. Men and Women's brains don't work alike and aren't good at the same things in a general sense. That's ALL I'm saying.
A few things to note about my post : -The word "general" is important : some women are way better then most men at science and geometric abstraction, but figures show that overall, men seem to be doing better in these domains. -Women have relational capacities that are in average better than men's and that would maybe make them better CEOs than men for example, I don't see how you could have concluded the exact contrary from my post. -Whether or not this is from education or genes is still a question -Whether or not this has anything to do with how well you are able to play SC2 is still a question.
I'm just saying that blindly saying that men and women have the same mental capacities is plain wrong. (and once again, that is NOT implying that one is superior over the other)
Also interesting would be how much a bad sense for spatial geometry would actually mean for winning in games.
As an interesting anecdote, I never knew anyone that was not overwhelmed playing for the first time a map like Aerowalk or DM4 in Quakeworld. Those are maps with at least three vertically stacked layers and teleporters and stairways connecting the hallways and rooms. Everything feels like a labyrinth and the teleporter connections feel random the first time running around on the map. These are those kind of maps that produce 40:0 scores in 10 minutes and most of the time you did not even see your death coming because the score is mostly built through simple spam rockets and grenades.
After playing the maps for years, I am convinced the part of your IQ that has to do with spatial geometry test results has no effect on the outcome of duels between players. Instead, for every given situation, you will know every possible move by heart. Your accuracy, item timings and your ability to guess your opponents intentions will be what determines the winner of the duels. Having ice flowing in your veins at LAN tournaments is also a good skill to have.
The point I wanted to make is that players put in enormous amounts of time into a game, which will mean that the results of tests that look at the general populace have less or no bearing on what exactly happens inside the SC2 matches between two players that have played RTS games for countless hours every day over the years.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
Okay, then go complain to big leagues about how they are not doing enough to bring in female gamers and female interest in general.
You are attacking the opposite of what you should attack, if you truly want a community where males and females are given equal opportunity.
To me, all the warnings and bans given in this thread are totally justified, most of what is said in those comments is some kind of hysterical "male=female" propaganda, and that's not the topic, at all.
Good job TL admins, for the moderation and the event cover.
I'm willing to bet she could trounce most of the male gamers out there who are bitching about the Female Cup...
My GF plays SC2, and she plays in the Female cups because they are fun and much much less stressful. Don't forget that women aren't naturally as competitive as men, granted some definitely are (and are probably MORE competitive) but many aren't. I know my GF gets really frustrated playing sometimes, and having a lower stress level for girls really helps them enjoy playing. Again, this isn't a stereotype, or some sweeping generalization, but just my observations from first hand encounters and experience.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
What? He was banned for saying that girls are just as good as guys and it's a cultural standard that is at the root of separate leagues?
Coed was cool I thought. :<
he got banned for starting a stupid argument that derailed 98349824threads already
how many girls did participate in that tournament btw?
More people playing high level SC2 and more avenues for good players to prove themselves.
I can only see it as a good thing.
Call it a stepping stone - people who do well in these female tournaments might feel more confident going into MLG and the like. In the end, as a spectator, I just enjoy seeing more and more people playing. More tournaments, more great players, and more striving for greatness.
Thank you for the interview and congrats to flo.
To dig into the point a little more: Attending an MLG or another event (especially LAN or any high profile tournament) could be very intimidating. It is for most gamers, and probably doubly so for a female gamer. Ignoring any psychological testing if men or women are better predisposed to playing SC2, there is a sociological factor and this is also important. Just because there shouldn't be one doesn't mean there isn't.
Creating a tournament for female gamers gives them a chance to prove themselves as players. It opens up the scene a little more for anyone who might be nervous. Who knows, five years down the line this might not be necessary, but eSports is very male-dominated right now. Without avenues such as this female SC2 players might not even consider attending major LANs - lack of tournament experience or fear of sticking out in a crowd being major driving forces. In the end, it brings more people into the game we all love. There is no sexism here - there would be if females weren't allowed to compete at other tournaments, and there's no long-term segregation here.
Also, to quote something that gets stated on State of the Game often whenever people put on serious faces about eSports: In the end, have fun. It's what we're here for. This isn't the same as normal sports, this is something we are shaping. I'd hate it to be an environment where every little thing is scrutinized and asked if its 'professional' for some misguided aim at legitimacy.
Instead I want it to be an environment where someone using the alias 'flo' won a tournament, and that's awesome :D
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Wrong.
How so - in the physical requirements for playing Starcraft? Male and female arms are equally capable of moving a mouse fast and - if we are accepting equality - the brains of both genders are equally capable of making correct decisions.
You are just saying this randomly, I could just about say the opposite randomly as well and who is to tell who is right ?
There are plenty of studies giving results that tend to prove your theory and plenty of other studies with opposite results. Men and woman are equal in rights but I see no reason why they should be physically equal in playing RTS games. It is pretty obvious that male and female brains don't work the same way for everything, you'd need further studies to prove that they have the same tools with regards to playing SC2.
Are you really suggesting that women don't have the same tools to play SC2? If you've got two arms, some fingers and at least one eye, you can play; it's not a physical limitation. The difference is just practice time, interest, or as others have put it, cultural.
So you are not using your brain when you play SC2 ? Just your arms and eyes ?
There have been some interesting studies that have proven that females have a harder time with spaciality than males (I don't know if that word exists in english, I mean just representing things in a 3D perspective in your mind).
There are plenty of things that the female and male minds process differently. That is pretty much a fact... the real question is whether this is induced by education and society or if we are born this way. And also whether or not these differences have a baring on playing RTS games.
Female and male brains do work differently; but I think I'm just trying to appeal to common sense. For something like Starcraft 2, I think just having the motor functions necessary for basic hand eye coordination should provide a level enough playing field, enough such that it shouldn't necessitate a different league (due to gender).
Again, I've never seriously studied neurosciences, so I may be speaking from a position of ignorance. To be honest, I actually can't prove it definitively one way or the other. But in an Sc2 context, I feel like the variances in mental ability, in whatever capacity, between genders is no different that the variances we'd see in ability within the same gender. Or at least I want to say, the advantages/disadvantages between either gender (in an SC2 context) are minor enough that practice becomes a far more prominent factor in playing the game well, rather than any innate mental/physical ability.
But I'm all for a female league if it generates more interest
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
What? He was banned for saying that girls are just as good as guys and it's a cultural standard that is at the root of separate leagues?
Coed was cool I thought. :<
he got banned for starting a stupid argument that derailed 98349824threads already
how many girls did participate in that tournament btw?
On April 25 2011 20:09 NeonFox wrote: That keyboard looks like a dell to me, if so, is there a way to know wich one it is, because I've been trying to find a dell keyboard i tried and loved some time ago. Sorry bout the offtopic and of course congrats to her!
you can grab one off of Amazon or something i guess, but most online sites sell them for about $25, 26 bucks. Great keyboard BTW Gratz to flo =)
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
Hate to burst your bubble but male and female brain structure is vastly different in all species. Does it provide an edge? Who knows the studies haven't been done. However, I don't believe there is a prize pool for the tournament so no one is "missing out" on anything -- It's just an excuse for female gamers to get together and play, I don't see why this would upset anyone.
That being said -- nice interview, congrats to flo~
I'm fairly sure women have higher stress tolerance (read it somewhere, so can't pull the quote up, so take it for what it is), which probably is a pretty huge help. I guess men are generally more competetive though, so I guess girls are more likely to go to world of warcraft or something T_T I still keep my dream of for once finding a gf who enjoys gaming though ^^
Hmm, the problem is that people shouldn't bitch about female only cups, they should be encouraging women to join some of the more well known tournaments such as dreamhack, nasl, gsl, mlg, etc. The only legitimate concern here is that there are some kick ass girls out there who can give our favorites a run for their money and we're not seeing it! No need to be so negative.
Congrats on winning your tournament Flo, and I really hope that the ladies continue to join us boys in enjoying the amazing game that is SC2. It's so good for esports, and I'm glad to see more and more women deciding to do whatever they want to do regardless of social stigma, even if it is just video gaming
On the topic on men vs women in gaming/sports whatever, in this case its a simple numbers issue, if 1 in 100000 people of a given gender have what it takes to be awesome at starcraft but we only have 10000 female players then the math would indicate that there's a pretty low chance of one of them being the next Flash. For all we know my little sister is going to start playing this game next week and take down the NASL next year sometime but as she has no interest in playing sc2 I guess we'll never know.
Unrelated note, I dislike the term "gender equality", obviously Male == Female isn't true, we're different genders so I don't see why we should expect either gender to have the exact same capabilities at the exact same things. You don't expect forks to be good for eating soup but it doesn't make it a lesser utensil, just a different one.
I also feel like an insta-ban on anyone discussing females/gaming/tournaments would be in order, wether you're for or against it. Having it in every single female gaming topic is getting old as fuck.
I watched for a bit before Boxer's match came on. Saw a pretty fun game between two protosses, don't remember what their names were but one tried a proxy gate/cannon cheese on XNC that was really fun to watch.
also, i agree with mr. Longshank above me. Seeing these threads get derailed time and time again is a shame, and probably turns away some girls that would be interested in playing in one of these tournaments
Congrats to Flo on winning the cup. I personally never heard of her in the CS scene since I followed it a lot until 2009. Nevertheless, I hope she gets picked up by an organization, so they can fly her out to some events.
Congrats flo! On the gender issue, i like having cups and tournaments especially for women but I'd wish that female gamers would also take on the challenge to play in a "normal"/"male" tournament, as I don't think they are the worse gamers and could beat some of the male gamers out there.Flo being a grandmasters surely proves her abilities to keep up with other grandmasters.It would also provide quite the drama and more interest especially in the more unknown/smaller cups.
Well, im not against there being all female tournaments, but I do think that the gender separation of starcraft gaming may give the impression that one of the sexes is inherently worse than the other at it (i don say which).
If there are gender separations in other sports its because they are physical sports and men are physicaly stronger than women, thats a fact. Thus women and men are NOT on equal footing.
However i dont think theres physical or mental inequality in starcraft between males and females, no more than there can be between one male gamer and another male gamer. Womens mental structures are different? Yeah, but different doesnt mean worse.
You can't expect shit to be born out of nowhere, woman playing computer games is a rarity, people should stand behind that, if computer games, expanded more towards woman, that'd be pretty cool. in counter strike there were plenty of woman teams, but that's because some of those teams made it into the spotlight, encouraging other woman to pickup the game and have fun with it.
Let's say there's this lady whose name is, i don't know, lets call her: Destiny, or ROOTDestiny.
So... ROOTDestiny walks here and starts reading this thread, cause she just started playing the game, she really enjoys it and hopes to win the Woman ESL in the future, winning IPL, NASL, GSL etc, may be goals too far appart for ROOTDestiny (not because she's a woman but because she just started playing) so she aims for Woman ESL, that sounds like a solid first step in the right direction. Well then ROOTDestiny starts reading all these retarded comments that instead of supporting or encouraging the previous winner are just completely brainless, baseless, and for the most part just a bunch of retarded nerds full of envy "IM PROBABLY BETTER THAN HER WHY SHE FAMOUS!!!" - well cause you're a boy, you've probably played computer games since you were a kid, your friends probably introduced you to computer games, it wasn't weird for you, then you found out there was a bunch of other nerds on the internet and made a lot of e-friends.
ROOTDestiny probably had a tougher time, it is unlikely that many of her girl-friends played computer games, so she was less encouraged from the start to pick up this games, least of all play them competitively, im sure someone like flo could come up with a lot more obstacles and challenges about playing computer games as a girl. Heck if I had slept enough I could come up with a lot more obstacles for my imaginary character ROOTDestiny, but to make it simple, just think of every obstacle you had as a young nerd, and now multiply it x10 cause none of your best friends share or understand your interests or passion for video games.
this is why I said it was a lot like when i was talking about home grown esports in North America and Europe vs Asia, mainly korea. As a cultural thing, we have a lot more barriers and obstacles to overcome, playing computer games doesn't have a wide acceptance in this hemisphere, and it is demotivating for the 'pro' player in general. In North America, there is only a few 'team houses' just recently, while in korea they've had them for years, where they have practice schedules, sleep schedules, and some or rather many, have coaches. It's not 2-3 people living together, its 10 people who share similar goals pushing each other to be the best. It's just a better environment than we've been able to create anywhere else. So yeah to me as a player, its discouraging when MC gets invited to the same leagues I get invited to without risking flying out or anything like that, cause on top of all these tournaments he attends and keeps winning all over the world, he has korea, he's had a better enviroment to practice in a country that widely accepts esports blablabla, don't really wanna get much into it, but he has an advantage, i don't believe it's a genetic advantage, I think its an enviromental one.
(and before it comes out yah, Nazgul wrote a nice post on how sc2 in korea isnt as big as sc1 and we shouldn't cut their opportunities, and I love nazgul and that's very kind of him to say. All I was and im trying to say, to close on this topic is, without our own leagues, playing against people we know, people we play and people we know are beatable, esports will never take off in the west, period, if that's fine with everyone, whatever. Truth is koreans set the standard right now, everyone watches GSL, and anyone who's not in it, just isn't up there in most people's eyes. This makes Jinro for example a huge hero, and he should be. But not everyone had the same opportunities as Jinro, and he's far from being invincible outside of korea. In the public eye however, he's in GSL and that's where the real skillz is! so Gg rest of the world blablabla, watch the video and agree or disagree i don't care)
back to ROOTDestiny, lets say she reads all these comments... she'd probably be really dissapointed and stop playing this game, cause the best thing that would come out of winning woman's ESL here seems to be a bunch of inmature jealous idiots who'd bash on her for no good reason. Now if people supported this and helped grow it and the comments were less retarded and more encouraging, maybe ROOTDestiny would be like "Awesome!!!! i'll tell my friend Stella Bonnell II about this! and the game that we all love would continue to grow in more directions, and cater to a much more diverse and new audience!
CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more.
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
[...]
No one gave anyone anything. This league was made by women for women. I guess they asked the ESL for an admin account to set up a league on the ESL website and that was all the ESL had to do with the tournament.
If you are hung up on the "female" idea, compare this to that US College league (forgot the name). It was made by students for matches against other colleges. They put up a stream and had shoutcasts of their LAN tournaments. Or the old-players Quake tournament in the BYOC area at QuakeCon for only players over thirty or forty or whatever it was.
The positive side of leagues like this is that it makes more people experience for themselves how playing a video game in a competition feels like. It perhaps makes more people appreciate what the super-good players are doing in the GSL, NASL, etc. I like the idea of small special tournaments a lot and I do not see any downsides.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
So why arent you complaining in the high school league thread about dividing gamers across school lines?
The reason there are high school cups is because generally younger people lack expereince in many things therefore GENERALLY lack knowledge/intellect when compared to slightly older people. However, being a male or female has nothing to do with intelligence, so why are there female cups? I really don't understand the logic behind this and it seems really odd/demeaning to me personally. Just my opinion though.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
So why arent you complaining in the high school league thread about dividing gamers across school lines?
The reason there are high school cups is because generally younger people lack expereince in many things therefore GENERALLY lack knowledge/intellect when compared to slightly older people. However, being a male or female has nothing to do with intelligence, so why are there female cups? I really don't understand the logic behind this and it seems really odd/demeaning to me personally. Just my opinion though.
That's kinda what I'm on about really. The school aspect is different too because its team based and doing it for your school pride. Unless there are feminazis, they're not doing it for...woman pride. I guess just with so many free to enter tournaments for anyone with no exclusions I don't see the point. I'm not bashing it or sayings its terrible, I just don't find this the most productive route to go.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
It's actually a simple fact of evolutionary biology that makes females being among the best in the world at *anything* very unlikely, regardless of whether it's physical skill being tested. In terms of fighting for mates in primitive society, it's very easy for females to reproduce, while only the males of highest standing in the group will get to mate (and they will mate with many females).
It therefore makes sense for males to have more variation, and females to have less variation. If males need to be at the top of the group to reproduce, they are better off with a 10% chance of being really good (mating many times), an 80% chance of being average (mating 0 times), and a 10% chance of being really bad (again, mating 0 times) than to have a 100% chance of being average (mating 0 times).
For this reason, in general males in most mammalian species will make up the very best in the world as well as the very worst in the world at any given trait.
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more.
Can someone please ban this guy? Why don't you go and complain about every tournament that features Gold level and lower players? You are saying that unless woman who play SC2 compete in bikinis, they are not allowed to form their own community? Don't read about female SC2 cup if you don't give a shit about it. We wouldn't miss your witty comments, trust me.
You just ignored everything that Catz said in his amazing post and gave some bullshit example about how you used to drive go-kart. l2life.
“Some people have downgraded me for entering Female tournament, but like any other sports I think girls should have their own section too, especially most of the players out there are guys.”
Isn't this admitting in a sense that female have some sort of disadvantage or obstacle that doesn't exist for guys? I don't understand how anyone could think that is true, and asking for separate leagues seems like a cop out for not having to try very hard.
Do girls think it's too hard to win a tournament or something because there are 99% guys playing? Do what the rest of us do, practice and get better. By dropping all the girls in their own leagues it degrades the entirety of their games, no one will take it seriously.
Furthermore, the argument that the player pool of Starcraft is saturated by guys which makes it "harder" for girls to win is a moot point. The individual girls playing the game have no gain or benefit by other girls winning tournaments if they themselves are not. It's the same thing that was poked fun at on some SNL in regards to the 2008 presidential election. Hillary was made to have said she didn't care if Sarah or another woman became president, SHE wanted to become president. Thus the argument that the population being males makes it too hard for females to succeed doesn't make sense if you look at what individuals actually want, which is to succeed themselves.
It's the same thing as arguing that there are too many blond haired people winning tournaments, and brown haired people just don't seem to have a chance. What does that irrelevant aspect of one's self have to do with their ability to play a game like starcraft? It is the same for the gender issue, why should one's physical body make any difference in your apm or strategic thinking?
The real way to solve this is for the girls of the community to awaken. Get out of this mindset that they need their own leagues for "more fair competition", and just get as good as they can. This flo person saying girls should have their own leagues is representative of this apathetic and submissive mindset, which only allows for these female leagues to continue to be seen as legitimate, because the players themselves are ok with it. So wake up, open your eyes, think about this.
This isn't going to transform girls into superstar starcraft players, but it will at least break the shackles that consist of these female leagues and tournaments and pave the way for females to realize true success, if they want it.
On May 05 2011 03:44 SaiyAN wrote: “Some people have downgraded me for entering Female tournament, but like any other sports I think girls should have their own section too, especially most of the players out there are guys.”
Isn't this admitting in a sense that female have some sort of disadvantage or obstacle that doesn't exist for guys? I don't understand how anyone could think that is true, and asking for separate leagues seems like a cop out for not having to try very hard.
Do girls think it's too hard to win a tournament or something because there are 99% guys playing? Do what the rest of us do, practice and get better. By dropping all the girls in their own leagues it degrades the entirety of their games, no one will take it seriously.
Furthermore, the argument that the player pool of Starcraft is saturated by guys which makes it "harder" for girls to win is a moot point. The individual girls playing the game have no gain or benefit by other girls winning tournaments if they themselves are not. It's the same thing that was poked fun at on some SNL in regards to the 2008 presidential election. Hillary was made to have said she didn't care if Sarah or another woman became president, SHE wanted to become president. Thus the argument that the population being males makes it too hard for females to succeed doesn't make sense if you look at what individuals actually want, which is to succeed themselves.
It's the same thing as arguing that there are too many blond haired people winning tournaments, and brown haired people just don't seem to have a chance. What does that irrelevant aspect of one's self have to do with their ability to play a game like starcraft? It is the same for the gender issue, why should one's physical body make any difference in your apm or strategic thinking?
The real way to solve this is for the girls of the community to awaken. Get out of this mindset that they need their own leagues for "more fair competition", and just get as good as they can. This flo person saying girls should have their own leagues is representative of this apathetic and submissive mindset, which only allows for these female leagues to continue to be seen as legitimate, because the players themselves are ok with it. So wake up, open your eyes, think about this.
This isn't going to transform girls into superstar starcraft players, but it will at least break the shackles that consist of these female leagues and tournaments and pave the way for females to realize true success, if they want it.
I completely agree with this, and I know people are saying "These threads allways turn into an argument like this" but we have strong opinions about this because it just makes no sense whatsoever to us, so please, don't complain that these types of threads "allways turn into this", and instead try to help us see your side of the discussion.
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more.
I'm surprised with TLs response to this.
Imagine a world where there was 1 tournament, and only 1 tournament. It began with HUGE amounts of qualifiers and ended up with the best of the best.
Yay.
Now imagine a world where there were 3 tournaments. 1 for professionals. 1 for college level (intermediate level). 1 for amateur level.
Sounds even better IMO.
Now imagine a world where people made tournaments just because they wanted to, then invited their friends or random people that were like them. TLers invite TLers. Pros invite Pros. Random Bronze people invited Random Bronze people. Old people invite old people, you get where I'm going right? They don't ban male genitalia because they are too good for to play with them.
Now think back to when you were a child (seemingly not long ago) did you make friends with girls or rich/poor kids or gingers or blond kids? I doubt it, you probably were friends with one or two "groups" because you had things in common. Yay things in common.
Or maybe they just have an all girl tournament to watch the flames burn on forums.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
It's actually a simple fact of evolutionary biology that makes females being among the best in the world at *anything* very unlikely, regardless of whether it's physical skill being tested. In terms of fighting for mates in primitive society, it's very easy for females to reproduce, while only the males of highest standing in the group will get to mate (and they will mate with many females).
It therefore makes sense for males to have more variation, and females to have less variation. If males need to be at the top of the group to reproduce, they are better off with a 10% chance of being really good (mating many times), an 80% chance of being average (mating 0 times), and a 10% chance of being really bad (again, mating 0 times) than to have a 100% chance of being average (mating 0 times).
For this reason, in general males in most mammalian species will make up the very best in the world as well as the very worst in the world at any given trait.
can a mod explain why the first post deserve a ban and not this one?
please don't pretend you are doing science claiming such false facts... please go back to study the evolution theory and ethology...
for sure men are better at anything and it's because of evolution... For instance, I am really better than my girlfriend at playing backgammon because since millions of years woman prefered reproducing with good backgammon players, that's a fact and not at all because such people like you consider that since she was a baby she should rather learn to take care of a doll than playing with usefull games
Would love to see money involved in this tournament in the future =) To help make it even more competitive. I know a few female gamers who've been improving leaps and bounds after seeing this.
The "there is no difference" crowd really need to open a few textbooks. I can't believe how annoyed it makes me when people spew crap that goes against established fact.
On May 05 2011 04:12 divito wrote: The "there is no difference" crowd really need to open a few textbooks. I can't believe how annoyed it makes me when people spew crap that goes against established fact.
Yeah as much as I am all for the equality of the sexes, people really need to do some reading on the differences between the male & female mind.
some people are idiots, ofc girls will be more encouraged to play the game if there is a fem cup, it shows presence in the community and reduces the feeling of being isolated
I didn't watch the games but I support the concept
yeah, sure. Please, give me a link to just one scientific publication which has not been proven false since its publication proving a difference other than the size between a man and woman mind.
people really need to do some RECENT SCIENTIFIC reading AND NOT MASS MEDIA CRAP on the differences between the male & female mind.
I saw some of the games, very entertaining, even though the casting wasn't my cup of tea, but I always need a few days to see if I like a style, so dont mind me.
also WTF about the hating in here, great concept and tourny, keep it up and running.
Like Catz said, its not about being better or worse, its about encouraging community development and growth. The fact that the community is 99.99% (estimation) male means that the top will be about 99.99% male. Get more female gamers in the community, female gamers will do better. If you guys know anything about professional sports, the way to grow a country's power at a sport is to get more and more kids to play it. More players equals more top players. Great initiative and congrats on the win.
Good job, flow! I welcome female players into the eSports scene because I get tired of being apart of a scene dominated by males. It is nice to hear the occasional female voice to mix it up.
On May 05 2011 04:12 divito wrote: The "there is no difference" crowd really need to open a few textbooks. I can't believe how annoyed it makes me when people spew crap that goes against established fact.
Yeah as much as I am all for the equality of the sexes, people really need to do some reading on the differences between the male & female mind.
And you need to read up on the scientific method if you think that modern neurology can unequivocally state that the male brain has an inherent advantage at strategy gaming.
On May 05 2011 04:22 displaced wrote: there's no reason to cry about a women's league. + Show Spoiler +
we already have stuff like the special olympics anyways
User was temp banned for this post.
You are a prick.
Awesome interview also! I've been trying to find stream that doesn't lag like crazy to watch the female tournaments but most of them lag for some reason or another (high viewers, old computers.. etc.
I thought catz post was hilarious surprised no one else did hahaha
If there are bronze league tornaments, silver league etc
Why can't there be a womens league? Why is it so important to some people that this doesn't happen? Its like gay marriage. It doesn't affect anyone but the people involved.
Ok, a woman will be more famous than equally skilled male counterparts yes, but its because it's usually so much harder for them because of cultural stigma. When one female does break through and does compete in major tournaments, it will be interesting because it's so rare. And the easiest way to foster female growth in the community is to have female only tournaments where they can relate to their peers. Male nerds are already ostracized somewhat. It's only the past few years with things like halo and call of duty that being a nerd has become acceptable thing to admit.
Awaken already damnit! Stop subjecting yourselves to second-class tournaments and leagues! Become one with the community for who your are, not what you were born as!!!! GGGragahhhhhhhhHHHHHH!!!!!!! JUST WAKE UP!
I see no issue with a female-only league or tournament. There are plenty of tournaments out there so male gamers shouldn't be raising arms over this since it's not like there is a lack of tournaments for them to compete in.
Although, I disagree with Catz about it being harder to be a female gamer since on average most of their female friends won't be competitive rts gamers. There are plenty of decent guys out there who would and do befriend girl gamers and thus they have the same opportunity to surround themselves with sc2 friends and potentially teammates to help them practice, theorycraft,and grow. The only disadvantage of being a female gamer is the crap you have to put up with being involved in a male-dominated scene and more so in one dominated by nerdy males! Female gamers get treated as pieces of meat or insulted for their looks by a significant portion of male gamers due to the anonymity of the internet (which is a huge part of eSports scene).
On May 05 2011 05:13 Chainfire99 wrote: I see no issue with a female-only league or tournament. There are plenty of tournaments out there so male gamers shouldn't be raising arms over this since it's not like there is a lack of tournaments for them to compete in.
Although, I disagree with Catz about it being harder to be a female gamer since on average most of their female friends won't be competitive rts gamers. There are plenty of decent guys out there who would and do befriend girl gamers and thus they have the same opportunity to surround themselves with sc2 friends and potentially teammates to help them practice, theorycraft,and grow. The only disadvantage of being a female gamer is the crap you have to put up with being involved in a male-dominated scene and more so in one dominated by nerdy males! Female gamers get treated as pieces of meat or insulted for their looks by a significant portion of male gamers due to the anonymity of the internet (which is a huge part of eSports scene).
Just because Catz is cool and funny and handsome and pro doesn't mean you all should constantly refer to his arguments in these cases. Sure he made us all laugh by the Destiny story, but regardless of your love of Catz, try not to only use him as the reference hear to cite over and over as the word of truth and reason. That title is mine.
Now go back and read my first post in this thread and make me an argument that I can respond to.
I don't love Catz at all lol. I am a Terran so I stick to being fans of specific pro terran players. I was merely commenting on his post because I chose to.
Female-only tournaments are not going to hurt the scene. So if there is no harm there is no foul. I don't know what your agenda is buddy but your argument is rendered moot because it is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Complain and whine about something worthwhile and significant. This is a non-issue.
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more.
Can someone please ban this guy? Why don't you go and complain about every tournament that features Gold level and lower players? You are saying that unless woman who play SC2 compete in bikinis, they are not allowed to form their own community? Don't read about female SC2 cup if you don't give a shit about it. We wouldn't miss your witty comments, trust me.
You just ignored everything that Catz said in his amazing post and gave some bullshit example about how you used to drive go-kart. l2life.
Ironically you answered your own question. Essentially anyone can enter a gold level tournament the only requirement is that they are in that league. There are no physical restrictions, guy, girl, black, white, young, old. Nothing matters except that they're of similar skill, there's no bias or stripulations. I'm glad you love CatZ because he's a recognized name and therefore glorify any post he makes and discredit mine, but I have no business in that.
People want a way to feel accomplishment even when they're in a vacuum. Frankly again to bring up my baseball analogy, no girls really play baseball specifically. Is that harmful to the sport? Clearly not. I'm all for encouraging people to play, but are the free, anyone can enter type tournaments not encouraging this already? Encouraging segments of the population just for sake of growth, even if the interest isn't sustainable is worthless long term.
Just to throw a random name out there, I see dde from sixjax in a lot of tournaments aside from the bigger stuff, I can play in a free to enter tournament not because I'm anything other than a person playing starcraft and I can play in it. I can try my best to win it all or maybe I'll just lose and learn something along the way. At the same time, maybe I'm not looking to get stomped and I'm in the gold league and I like the feel of a tournament format, even if its for nothing or even 5 bucks, but hey I'm in gold league and other than that, no matter who I am physically or where I came from or my experience or background I can compete against others. That's the beauty of electronic competition. There's already tournaments that are free to enter as well as tournaments that cater to different skill levels, why segment it anymore other than for the sake of some obscure rationalization that it promotes our community?
Other than for a popularity contest and a shallow image of self worth, these female only, right handed only, only have blond hair, etc. tournaments aren't doing anything for anyone other than as I said being good marketing for companies to make more money at best. I don't treat this as some sort of "they must be stopped!" type situation, but people wonder where the criticism comes from and why and I feel like myself and other posters pretty clearly explain why its not helping anyone in the end.
But it is helping the female gamers as far as building confidence and experience playing in tournaments. Furthermore, it's adding some variety to the eSports scene for those who are intrigued about watching female gamers go at it. Sure it is playing to novelty of female gamers (to the rts genre specifically) but it's variety all the same and isn't that the spice of life? I see zero downside to these gender-restrictive tournaments to the current landscape of competitive sc2.
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more.
Can someone please ban this guy? Why don't you go and complain about every tournament that features Gold level and lower players? You are saying that unless woman who play SC2 compete in bikinis, they are not allowed to form their own community? Don't read about female SC2 cup if you don't give a shit about it. We wouldn't miss your witty comments, trust me.
You just ignored everything that Catz said in his amazing post and gave some bullshit example about how you used to drive go-kart. l2life.
Ironically you answered your own question. Essentially anyone can enter a gold level tournament the only requirement is that they are in that league. There are no physical restrictions, guy, girl, black, white, young, old. Nothing matters except that they're of similar skill, there's no bias or stripulations. I'm glad you love CatZ because he's a recognized name and therefore glorify any post he makes and discredit mine, but I have no business in that.
People want a way to feel accomplishment even when they're in a vacuum. Frankly again to bring up my baseball analogy, no girls really play baseball specifically. Is that harmful to the sport? Clearly not. I'm all for encouraging people to play, but are the free, anyone can enter type tournaments not encouraging this already? Encouraging segments of the population just for sake of growth, even if the interest isn't sustainable is worthless long term.
Just to throw a random name out there, I see dde from sixjax in a lot of tournaments aside from the bigger stuff, I can play in a free to enter tournament not because I'm anything other than a person playing starcraft and I can play in it. I can try my best to win it all or maybe I'll just lose and learn something along the way. At the same time, maybe I'm not looking to get stomped and I'm in the gold league and I like the feel of a tournament format, even if its for nothing or even 5 bucks, but hey I'm in gold league and other than that, no matter who I am physically or where I came from or my experience or background I can compete against others. That's the beauty of electronic competition. There's already tournaments that are free to enter as well as tournaments that cater to different skill levels, why segment it anymore other than for the sake of some obscure rationalization that it promotes our community?
Other than for a popularity contest and a shallow image of self worth, these female only, right handed only, only have blond hair, etc. tournaments aren't doing anything for anyone other than as I said being good marketing for companies to make more money at best. I don't treat this as some sort of "they must be stopped!" type situation, but people wonder where the criticism comes from and why and I feel like myself and other posters pretty clearly explain why its not helping anyone in the end.
I really do not see how small tournaments for a specific sub-group of SC2 players are hurting anyone. I think everything naturally balances itself out anyways. A day only has 24 hours and a week only seven days, and if a person's calendar is chock full with appointments, the big tournaments come out on top anyways with viewer numbers and participants. The added diversity of the special tournaments just spices life up a bit for the ones involved there.
Up to 1980 or so, my family was living on the eastern side of the iron wall in Europe. On that side, everyone was using the exact same four-door automobile. That was super efficient for engineers and manufacturers and maintenance etc. The same pattern was found everywhere in life there, not only car industry. I remember everyone in kindergarten was wearing the same uniform. Sorry for the stupid anecdote, but the thought cropped up when I was trying to find something negative about small tournaments. :>
Oh the irony of this thread... the sheer number of ignorant and sexist comments in here precisely highlight why there is a desire for this kind of tournament in the first place. If there was truly no need for it, the only comments we would see here would be "awesome, congrats flo" and constructive crit or discussion about any upcoming tournaments.
The men in here making arrogant and degrading comments (EDIT for clarity: not all men, the specific men making those comments) about women and female tournaments clearly do not understand the issues (dare I say because they are men).
As a female gamer, like any other gamer, I seek to get involved with the community of a game I spend so much time on and really enjoy. As I talk to people in stream chats, or in Skype while helping friends out, the amount of problems I've had to deal with simply for being female are ridiculous. I've been sent all kinds of disgusting pictures, listened to the most filthy and demeaning language, been stalked and harassed-- by people who were perfectly willing to treat me as a decent human being until they found out I was female. In the mean time, my male friends simply don't know how to respond and they offer no support and encouragement. They have never been subjected to that kind of shit.
There are plenty of great guys who simply respond with-- "oh you're a girl; that's cool"-- and get right back to the game. But there is an enormous number who do not, and I am sure any woman who bothers trying to make friends and get involved in a gaming community in any way has stories of similar disgusting treatment.
Beyond that, there's this issue with not that many women play games in the first place. None of my female friends in real life have any interest in the games I play. It is frustrating because I wish they could watch tournaments with me and appreciate the game the way I do. It's the same kind of thing when we get the blogs every so often asking how to explain the game to a girlfriend or family member who just doesn't get it. It's discouraging when people just don't 'get' the things you care about.
A tournament like this is great, because it's an opportunity for women to meet other women. Hurrah, you can now have some female friends who play sc2! They understand and can sympathize with problems you may have! Maybe they are actually interested in other things you do (how depressing is it to try to talk to the majority of your male sc2 friends about your new dress, or your boyfriend?)! Now you don't feel so much like you are struggling against the odds, all alone.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the males of this community. If any of you are having trouble making friends with other guys who play sc2, feel free to make a male only tournament to help guys meet other guys who game. I'm sure the women here would be glad to see you trying to foster a community of support for all the guys who feel alone as male gamers.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the females of this community either. Participation doesn't bar women from playing in any other tournaments. In fact, it probably helps boost confidence for them. It allows for participation in a competitive event where you don't have to worry about being bashed for a loss because 'you're a girl', or where you get a plethora of unwanted attention for being the only woman. It's nerve-wracking and discouraging to be singled out that way. If you lose, you feel like you've not only failed yourself, but every other woman out there that then gets labeled as unable to play this game because of being female.
Well done flo. Well done every single woman who chose to participate in this event! I hope you are all encouraged to play more, to play better, to put up with the bullshit and not be discouraged by the disgusting treatment you are sometimes subjected to for your sex. I hope we see some of you competing as pros soon.
On May 05 2011 09:21 RedJustice wrote: Oh the irony of this thread... the sheer number of ignorant and sexist comments in here precisely highlight why there is a desire for this kind of tournament in the first place. If there was truly no need for it, the only comments we would see here would be "awesome, congrats flo" and constructive crit or discussion about any upcoming tournaments.
The men in here making arrogant and degrading comments about women and female tournaments clearly do not understand the issues (dare I say because they are men).
As a female gamer, like any other gamer, I seek to get involved with the community of a game I spend so much time on and really enjoy. As I talk to people in stream chats, or in Skype while helping friends out, the amount of problems I've had to deal with simply for being female are ridiculous. I've been sent all kinds of disgusting pictures, listened to the most filthy and demeaning language, been stalked and harassed-- by people who were perfectly willing to treat me as a decent human being until they found out I was female. In the mean time, my male friends simply don't know how to respond and they offer no support and encouragement. They have never been subjected to that kind of shit.
There are plenty of great guys who simply respond with-- "oh you're a girl; that's cool"-- and get right back to the game. But there is an enormous number who do not, and I am sure any woman who bothers trying to make friends and get involved in a gaming community in any way has stories of similar disgusting treatment.
Beyond that, there's this issue with not that many women play games in the first place. None of my female friends in real life have any interest in the games I play. It is frustrating because I wish they could watch tournaments with me and appreciate the game the way I do. It's the same kind of thing when we get the blogs every so often asking how to explain the game to a girlfriend or family member who just doesn't get it. It's discouraging when people just don't 'get' the things you care about.
A tournament like this is great, because it's an opportunity for women to meet other women. Hurrah, you can now have some female friends who play sc2! They understand and can sympathize with problems you may have! Maybe they are actually interested in other things you do (how depressing is it to try to talk to the majority of your male sc2 friends about your new dress, or your boyfriend?)! Now you don't feel so much like you are struggling against the odds, all alone.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the males of this community. If any of you are having trouble making friends with other guys who play sc2, feel free to make a male only tournament to help guys meet other guys who game. I'm sure the women here would be glad to see you trying to foster a community of support for all the guys who feel alone as male gamers.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the females of this community either. Participation doesn't bar women from playing in any other tournaments. In fact, it probably helps boost confidence for them. It allows for participation in a competitive event where you don't have to worry about being bashed for a loss because 'you're a girl', or where you get a plethora of unwanted attention for being the only woman. It's nerve-wracking and discouraging to be singled out that way. If you lose, you feel like you've not only failed yourself, but every other woman out there that then gets labeled as unable to play this game because of being female.
Well done flo. Well done every single woman who chose to participate in this event! I hope you are all encouraged to play more, to play better, to put up with the bullshit and not be discouraged by the disgusting treatment you are sometimes subjected to for your sex. I hope we see some of you competing as pros soon.
The men in here? Don't you mean some men? Not all of us in this thread are criticizing female-only tournaments. I don't see any issues with them at all. In fact, I enjoy the occasional female tournament from a viewer's perspective. Don't generalize all the people in this thread please. Other than that, I agree with everything you said. Well put. It's shameful how some internet guys degrade women.
On May 05 2011 09:21 RedJustice wrote: Oh the irony of this thread... the sheer number of ignorant and sexist comments in here precisely highlight why there is a desire for this kind of tournament in the first place. If there was truly no need for it, the only comments we would see here would be "awesome, congrats flo" and constructive crit or discussion about any upcoming tournaments.
The men in here making arrogant and degrading comments about women and female tournaments clearly do not understand the issues (dare I say because they are men).
As a female gamer, like any other gamer, I seek to get involved with the community of a game I spend so much time on and really enjoy. As I talk to people in stream chats, or in Skype while helping friends out, the amount of problems I've had to deal with simply for being female are ridiculous. I've been sent all kinds of disgusting pictures, listened to the most filthy and demeaning language, been stalked and harassed-- by people who were perfectly willing to treat me as a decent human being until they found out I was female. In the mean time, my male friends simply don't know how to respond and they offer no support and encouragement. They have never been subjected to that kind of shit.
There are plenty of great guys who simply respond with-- "oh you're a girl; that's cool"-- and get right back to the game. But there is an enormous number who do not, and I am sure any woman who bothers trying to make friends and get involved in a gaming community in any way has stories of similar disgusting treatment.
Beyond that, there's this issue with not that many women play games in the first place. None of my female friends in real life have any interest in the games I play. It is frustrating because I wish they could watch tournaments with me and appreciate the game the way I do. It's the same kind of thing when we get the blogs every so often asking how to explain the game to a girlfriend or family member who just doesn't get it. It's discouraging when people just don't 'get' the things you care about.
A tournament like this is great, because it's an opportunity for women to meet other women. Hurrah, you can now have some female friends who play sc2! They understand and can sympathize with problems you may have! Maybe they are actually interested in other things you do (how depressing is it to try to talk to the majority of your male sc2 friends about your new dress, or your boyfriend?)! Now you don't feel so much like you are struggling against the odds, all alone.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the males of this community. If any of you are having trouble making friends with other guys who play sc2, feel free to make a male only tournament to help guys meet other guys who game. I'm sure the women here would be glad to see you trying to foster a community of support for all the guys who feel alone as male gamers.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the females of this community either. Participation doesn't bar women from playing in any other tournaments. In fact, it probably helps boost confidence for them. It allows for participation in a competitive event where you don't have to worry about being bashed for a loss because 'you're a girl', or where you get a plethora of unwanted attention for being the only woman. It's nerve-wracking and discouraging to be singled out that way. If you lose, you feel like you've not only failed yourself, but every other woman out there that then gets labeled as unable to play this game because of being female.
Well done flo. Well done every single woman who chose to participate in this event! I hope you are all encouraged to play more, to play better, to put up with the bullshit and not be discouraged by the disgusting treatment you are sometimes subjected to for your sex. I hope we see some of you competing as pros soon.
The men in here? Don't you mean some men? Not all of us in this thread are criticizing female-only tournaments. I don't see any issues with them at all. In fact, I enjoy the occasional female tournament from a viewer's perspective. Don't generalize all the people in this thread please.
She adressed "men [...] making arrogant [...] comments" and was not generalizing.
On May 05 2011 09:21 RedJustice wrote: Oh the irony of this thread... the sheer number of ignorant and sexist comments in here precisely highlight why there is a desire for this kind of tournament in the first place. If there was truly no need for it, the only comments we would see here would be "awesome, congrats flo" and constructive crit or discussion about any upcoming tournaments.
The men in here making arrogant and degrading comments about women and female tournaments clearly do not understand the issues (dare I say because they are men).
As a female gamer, like any other gamer, I seek to get involved with the community of a game I spend so much time on and really enjoy. As I talk to people in stream chats, or in Skype while helping friends out, the amount of problems I've had to deal with simply for being female are ridiculous. I've been sent all kinds of disgusting pictures, listened to the most filthy and demeaning language, been stalked and harassed-- by people who were perfectly willing to treat me as a decent human being until they found out I was female. In the mean time, my male friends simply don't know how to respond and they offer no support and encouragement. They have never been subjected to that kind of shit.
There are plenty of great guys who simply respond with-- "oh you're a girl; that's cool"-- and get right back to the game. But there is an enormous number who do not, and I am sure any woman who bothers trying to make friends and get involved in a gaming community in any way has stories of similar disgusting treatment.
Beyond that, there's this issue with not that many women play games in the first place. None of my female friends in real life have any interest in the games I play. It is frustrating because I wish they could watch tournaments with me and appreciate the game the way I do. It's the same kind of thing when we get the blogs every so often asking how to explain the game to a girlfriend or family member who just doesn't get it. It's discouraging when people just don't 'get' the things you care about.
A tournament like this is great, because it's an opportunity for women to meet other women. Hurrah, you can now have some female friends who play sc2! They understand and can sympathize with problems you may have! Maybe they are actually interested in other things you do (how depressing is it to try to talk to the majority of your male sc2 friends about your new dress, or your boyfriend?)! Now you don't feel so much like you are struggling against the odds, all alone.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the males of this community. If any of you are having trouble making friends with other guys who play sc2, feel free to make a male only tournament to help guys meet other guys who game. I'm sure the women here would be glad to see you trying to foster a community of support for all the guys who feel alone as male gamers.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the females of this community either. Participation doesn't bar women from playing in any other tournaments. In fact, it probably helps boost confidence for them. It allows for participation in a competitive event where you don't have to worry about being bashed for a loss because 'you're a girl', or where you get a plethora of unwanted attention for being the only woman. It's nerve-wracking and discouraging to be singled out that way. If you lose, you feel like you've not only failed yourself, but every other woman out there that then gets labeled as unable to play this game because of being female.
Well done flo. Well done every single woman who chose to participate in this event! I hope you are all encouraged to play more, to play better, to put up with the bullshit and not be discouraged by the disgusting treatment you are sometimes subjected to for your sex. I hope we see some of you competing as pros soon.
The men in here? Don't you mean some men? Not all of us in this thread are criticizing female-only tournaments. I don't see any issues with them at all. In fact, I enjoy the occasional female tournament from a viewer's perspective. Don't generalize all the people in this thread please.
She adressed "men [...] making arrogant [...] comments" and was not generalizing.
To hear some of these kind of responses from a foreign BW community.. It seems maybe a bit hypocritical :p.
Obviously a female player has no inherent physical, or mental disadvantage. In just the same way foreigners didn't have any in BW, but because of cultural differences, social differences, infrastructural differences, and whatever else, there were less foreigner players capable of competing at the Korean pro level. So what did foreigners do? They made foreign tournaments.
Now I realize the reasons for the differences between Foreigners/Koreans are not exactly the same as the reason for the differences between Male/Female players. But I feel the same idea applies.
In the long run of course everyone wants there to be tournaments with both genders playing and no need for a female cup, but we're not at that stage yet. I think tournaments like this help us get to that stage though.
Oh and good interview . Good job Flo!
edit: Oh and if you didn't see the post Catz made, I think it does a good job explaining the situation.
On May 05 2011 09:21 RedJustice wrote: Oh the irony of this thread... the sheer number of ignorant and sexist comments in here precisely highlight why there is a desire for this kind of tournament in the first place. If there was truly no need for it, the only comments we would see here would be "awesome, congrats flo" and constructive crit or discussion about any upcoming tournaments.
The men in here making arrogant and degrading comments about women and female tournaments clearly do not understand the issues (dare I say because they are men).
As a female gamer, like any other gamer, I seek to get involved with the community of a game I spend so much time on and really enjoy. As I talk to people in stream chats, or in Skype while helping friends out, the amount of problems I've had to deal with simply for being female are ridiculous. I've been sent all kinds of disgusting pictures, listened to the most filthy and demeaning language, been stalked and harassed-- by people who were perfectly willing to treat me as a decent human being until they found out I was female. In the mean time, my male friends simply don't know how to respond and they offer no support and encouragement. They have never been subjected to that kind of shit.
There are plenty of great guys who simply respond with-- "oh you're a girl; that's cool"-- and get right back to the game. But there is an enormous number who do not, and I am sure any woman who bothers trying to make friends and get involved in a gaming community in any way has stories of similar disgusting treatment.
Beyond that, there's this issue with not that many women play games in the first place. None of my female friends in real life have any interest in the games I play. It is frustrating because I wish they could watch tournaments with me and appreciate the game the way I do. It's the same kind of thing when we get the blogs every so often asking how to explain the game to a girlfriend or family member who just doesn't get it. It's discouraging when people just don't 'get' the things you care about.
A tournament like this is great, because it's an opportunity for women to meet other women. Hurrah, you can now have some female friends who play sc2! They understand and can sympathize with problems you may have! Maybe they are actually interested in other things you do (how depressing is it to try to talk to the majority of your male sc2 friends about your new dress, or your boyfriend?)! Now you don't feel so much like you are struggling against the odds, all alone.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the males of this community. If any of you are having trouble making friends with other guys who play sc2, feel free to make a male only tournament to help guys meet other guys who game. I'm sure the women here would be glad to see you trying to foster a community of support for all the guys who feel alone as male gamers.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the females of this community either. Participation doesn't bar women from playing in any other tournaments. In fact, it probably helps boost confidence for them. It allows for participation in a competitive event where you don't have to worry about being bashed for a loss because 'you're a girl', or where you get a plethora of unwanted attention for being the only woman. It's nerve-wracking and discouraging to be singled out that way. If you lose, you feel like you've not only failed yourself, but every other woman out there that then gets labeled as unable to play this game because of being female.
Well done flo. Well done every single woman who chose to participate in this event! I hope you are all encouraged to play more, to play better, to put up with the bullshit and not be discouraged by the disgusting treatment you are sometimes subjected to for your sex. I hope we see some of you competing as pros soon.
The men in here? Don't you mean some men? Not all of us in this thread are criticizing female-only tournaments. I don't see any issues with them at all. In fact, I enjoy the occasional female tournament from a viewer's perspective. Don't generalize all the people in this thread please.
She adressed "men [...] making arrogant [...] comments" and was not generalizing.
That. Please don't misunderstand me-- I specifically meant the men making 'arrogant and degrading comments'. If you read through the pages I'm sure some of them will jump out at you as incredibly sexist and ignorant!
I certainly do not think all guys are like that, or that all guys in the sc2 community are like that! I have many sc2 friends who are male (read: 95% of them), and they are great guys. We watch tournaments together and play KOTHs together, stream together, talk on Skype all the time, etc. I'm glad for those friends and for all the great male members of the community who don't care about things like gender, because they just want to play the game. I just wish I had some more female friends who played sc2 as well, as I talked about in my post.
I don't think there should be female cups, though I'm not going to object that there is. I think it's sexist and purely exists for the novelty. There's no reason females can't enter male-dominated tournaments, right? There is no physical reason why males are better, I suppose the game just appeals more to males and males are typically the most dedicated gamers.
I liked the CS dynamic of having female teams. I just think in a 1v1 game where it purely comes down to individual skill, it's dumb to separate the genders.
Great interview though, well written. I think the controversy and such will prevent female cups like this ever becoming legit, which is sad for those involved.
On May 05 2011 09:21 RedJustice wrote: Oh the irony of this thread... the sheer number of ignorant and sexist comments in here precisely highlight why there is a desire for this kind of tournament in the first place. If there was truly no need for it, the only comments we would see here would be "awesome, congrats flo" and constructive crit or discussion about any upcoming tournaments.
The men in here making arrogant and degrading comments about women and female tournaments clearly do not understand the issues (dare I say because they are men).
As a female gamer, like any other gamer, I seek to get involved with the community of a game I spend so much time on and really enjoy. As I talk to people in stream chats, or in Skype while helping friends out, the amount of problems I've had to deal with simply for being female are ridiculous. I've been sent all kinds of disgusting pictures, listened to the most filthy and demeaning language, been stalked and harassed-- by people who were perfectly willing to treat me as a decent human being until they found out I was female. In the mean time, my male friends simply don't know how to respond and they offer no support and encouragement. They have never been subjected to that kind of shit.
There are plenty of great guys who simply respond with-- "oh you're a girl; that's cool"-- and get right back to the game. But there is an enormous number who do not, and I am sure any woman who bothers trying to make friends and get involved in a gaming community in any way has stories of similar disgusting treatment.
Beyond that, there's this issue with not that many women play games in the first place. None of my female friends in real life have any interest in the games I play. It is frustrating because I wish they could watch tournaments with me and appreciate the game the way I do. It's the same kind of thing when we get the blogs every so often asking how to explain the game to a girlfriend or family member who just doesn't get it. It's discouraging when people just don't 'get' the things you care about.
A tournament like this is great, because it's an opportunity for women to meet other women. Hurrah, you can now have some female friends who play sc2! They understand and can sympathize with problems you may have! Maybe they are actually interested in other things you do (how depressing is it to try to talk to the majority of your male sc2 friends about your new dress, or your boyfriend?)! Now you don't feel so much like you are struggling against the odds, all alone.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the males of this community. If any of you are having trouble making friends with other guys who play sc2, feel free to make a male only tournament to help guys meet other guys who game. I'm sure the women here would be glad to see you trying to foster a community of support for all the guys who feel alone as male gamers.
A tournament like this doesn't hurt the females of this community either. Participation doesn't bar women from playing in any other tournaments. In fact, it probably helps boost confidence for them. It allows for participation in a competitive event where you don't have to worry about being bashed for a loss because 'you're a girl', or where you get a plethora of unwanted attention for being the only woman. It's nerve-wracking and discouraging to be singled out that way. If you lose, you feel like you've not only failed yourself, but every other woman out there that then gets labeled as unable to play this game because of being female.
Well done flo. Well done every single woman who chose to participate in this event! I hope you are all encouraged to play more, to play better, to put up with the bullshit and not be discouraged by the disgusting treatment you are sometimes subjected to for your sex. I hope we see some of you competing as pros soon.
The men in here? Don't you mean some men? Not all of us in this thread are criticizing female-only tournaments. I don't see any issues with them at all. In fact, I enjoy the occasional female tournament from a viewer's perspective. Don't generalize all the people in this thread please.
She adressed "men [...] making arrogant [...] comments" and was not generalizing.
That. Please don't misunderstand me-- I specifically meant the men making 'arrogant and degrading comments'. If you read through the pages I'm sure some of them will jump out at you as incredibly sexist and ignorant!
I certainly do not think all guys are like that, or that all guys in the sc2 community are like that! I have many sc2 friends who are male (read: 95% of them), and they are great guys. We watch tournaments together and play KOTHs together, stream together, talk on Skype all the time, etc. I'm glad for those friends and for all the great male members of the community who don't care about things like gender, because they just want to play the game. I just wish I had some more female friends who played sc2 as well, as I talked about in my post.
I understand. Good stuff. I do find it intriguing still that there are females out there that enjoy and are passionate about sc2. I wonder if it's a specific personality-type that is attracted to such games. Anyways, I am going on a tangent. gg gl hf
I love to see who the best of the best females are. Links to championship games in the OP would be nice though! Anybody have a link to the VODs by chance?
I think a tournament like this gives incentive for girls to get into the scene. And the more girls in the scene the better, right? :D
On May 05 2011 03:48 dezi wrote: What's that in front of the keyboard (next to the headset) Oo
That's probably one of those electronic devices that pulsate at a fixed, constant rate producing a continuous vibration that a subset of the female population might use to induce a specific sub-waist stress release,
On topic, I saw the finals of the tourney, it was really nice. Some tend to forget that not everybody is an aspiring pro gamer. The vast majority of players just watch tournaments as a form or entertainment. Entertainment can come from a really top, best-of.the-best competition; from an outstanding pair of casters (and their implicit homolust); from weird and exotic builds/strategies; or from the personality of the players. Female players, and female-only tournaments, are just another variation, another layer that's makes sc2 fun.
It's nice to see an interview where the player is a normal, functional member or society (i'm looking at you naniwa at mlg).
Also, too bad i missed kelly's matches, i still ♥ her.
I certainly think that a women's league is a good thing, and congrats to Flo winning! It gets more women into the game, and TL is 98% male (according to the census thread). A little diversity is always a good thing in any community. However, I do not think that Flo or any winner of these events should list it as an accomplishment. The competition is simply not good enough to be considered "top tier." The same could be said of winning a gold tourney.
I think it's pretty awesome that a league like the Female ESL exists, hope it keeps on going!
I'd just love to see the day where there doesn't have to be separate leagues in the first place, where there's enough interest/skill from both sexes to see a co-ed league.
Decent Interview would of liked some more gameplay oriented questions though ^^
The way I see it, anything that helps the growth of e-sports is great and part of that is attracting more diversity to competitive gaming, when I first heard about the competition I totally agreed with people saying "This does nothing but cause separation" etc etc. But now that I've thought about it, It's definitely a great way to attract more female players to step out of their shells and take part in e-sports.
I hope some of the girls we see playing in these competitions start playing in regular open tournaments though and not just restrict themselves to female only tournaments - because that would prove all the haters right.
Don't listen to all the negative comments in this thread, because people will complain on just about anything in order to get some attention. In the end, they are simply people hiding behind a computer screen unable to be judged.
Keep on playing, keep on practicing, and most importantly, keep on enjoying the game :D
I actually had no idea a SC2 female tournament existed until now, which is definitely awesome that the scene has reached people of both genders and has given females a platform in which to compete. Perhaps sometime down the road we can see the GSL or another big tournament incorporate female gamers into their tournaments, but anyways huge congratulations to flo for the win!
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
Go look at NASL thread
first post
what do you see, sir?
Yes because those pictures sure look like kissy lips facebook mirror photos.
On May 05 2011 04:46 Sueco wrote: And you need to read up on the scientific method if you think that modern neurology can unequivocally state that the male brain has an inherent advantage at strategy gaming.
It's not even about the mind. Open a biology textbook beyond first year, and you'll find plenty. We're not just talking about how the brain differs (which it does unequivocally), but we're talking physically as well.
And before the "moving a mouse isn't physical" nonsense comes out, we're talking about the differences in motor skills, dexterity, etc... Add in the thought process differences and it's not hard to see. And this is all found by reading.
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
On May 05 2011 04:12 divito wrote: The "there is no difference" crowd really need to open a few textbooks. I can't believe how annoyed it makes me when people spew crap that goes against established fact.
So you're saying it's established fact that Females are worse than Males in video games? I'm pretty sure ToSsGirl would wreck anyone here at SC1...
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn?
On May 05 2011 02:40 Alizee- wrote: CatZ I don't think you could of said ROOTDestiny anymore times. I think personally unless the female gamers are models and competiting in bikinis or something, there's not much point to a female league. Its like the one guy on here that's got a disability but doin his best. We don't give him a handicap league, no he says I'm gonna kick ass all the same despite the odds.
I guess its cool that girls wanna play too, but you have to be careful about them getting equal attention, why? Because if you're getting as much exposure and benefits as someone who is better than you it degrades the "sport".
Baseball is hugely successful, girls play mostly softball, nothing stops baseball from being successful because its only guys. Or even a better example, I used to race karts, go-carts just actually fast and anyhow, girls raced, one friend of mine even won a lot. Its a gender neutral sport and in this case even more so.
Saying guys and girls are wired different and all the other crap is irrelevant. I just don't think its a good thing to spotlight people who win something in a handicapped environment. You have lets say a masters level tournament, there might be a guy who never wins them because top players play in them, but yet that same guy might very well be able to wipe the floor with the "girl gamers" anyday. Is this logical or productive for the scene? I'd be inclined to say no.
Really its beneficial largely to companies as they can increase marketing to new avenues to increase sales, that's about it. Grats and all, but here's my conclusion:
TLDR: Ok great she won a female cup, if she's got the skill then play in the "regular" tournaments as well and see what results you get. Lets not get skill bubbles popping up from segmented tournaments, any of the girls need to go out there and try their hand at the normal tournaments with no gender requirements. If this is all a stepping stone then use it as such and nothing more.
Can someone please ban this guy? Why don't you go and complain about every tournament that features Gold level and lower players? You are saying that unless woman who play SC2 compete in bikinis, they are not allowed to form their own community? Don't read about female SC2 cup if you don't give a shit about it. We wouldn't miss your witty comments, trust me.
You just ignored everything that Catz said in his amazing post and gave some bullshit example about how you used to drive go-kart. l2life.
Ironically you answered your own question. Essentially anyone can enter a gold level tournament the only requirement is that they are in that league. There are no physical restrictions, guy, girl, black, white, young, old. Nothing matters except that they're of similar skill, there's no bias or stripulations. I'm glad you love CatZ because he's a recognized name and therefore glorify any post he makes and discredit mine, but I have no business in that.
People want a way to feel accomplishment even when they're in a vacuum. Frankly again to bring up my baseball analogy, no girls really play baseball specifically. Is that harmful to the sport? Clearly not. I'm all for encouraging people to play, but are the free, anyone can enter type tournaments not encouraging this already? Encouraging segments of the population just for sake of growth, even if the interest isn't sustainable is worthless long term.
Just to throw a random name out there, I see dde from sixjax in a lot of tournaments aside from the bigger stuff, I can play in a free to enter tournament not because I'm anything other than a person playing starcraft and I can play in it. I can try my best to win it all or maybe I'll just lose and learn something along the way. At the same time, maybe I'm not looking to get stomped and I'm in the gold league and I like the feel of a tournament format, even if its for nothing or even 5 bucks, but hey I'm in gold league and other than that, no matter who I am physically or where I came from or my experience or background I can compete against others. That's the beauty of electronic competition. There's already tournaments that are free to enter as well as tournaments that cater to different skill levels, why segment it anymore other than for the sake of some obscure rationalization that it promotes our community?
Other than for a popularity contest and a shallow image of self worth, these female only, right handed only, only have blond hair, etc. tournaments aren't doing anything for anyone other than as I said being good marketing for companies to make more money at best. I don't treat this as some sort of "they must be stopped!" type situation, but people wonder where the criticism comes from and why and I feel like myself and other posters pretty clearly explain why its not helping anyone in the end.
I've made this argument before and I'll make it again. So we should ban the CSL and High school starcraft leagues? I mean those physical restrictions of age sure are terrible and hurtful for everyone, aren't they.
On May 05 2011 04:46 Sueco wrote: And you need to read up on the scientific method if you think that modern neurology can unequivocally state that the male brain has an inherent advantage at strategy gaming.
It's not even about the mind. Open a biology textbook beyond first year, and you'll find plenty. We're not just talking about how the brain differs (which it does unequivocally), but we're talking physically as well.
And before the "moving a mouse isn't physical" nonsense comes out, we're talking about the differences in motor skills, dexterity, etc... Add in the thought process differences and it's not hard to see. And this is all found by reading.
Biologically you can make an argument for male muscle mass advantages, height, weight, etc.
If you are trying to make an argument that men have an inherent physical advantage in the motor skills and dexterity moving a mouse, you are a fucking idiot. These things are completely dependent on practice, and nothing more. The more time you spend repeating a motion, the better the muscle memory and the faster the response. Typing, clicking, hotkey-sequences, scales on the piano, painting-- the motor and dexterity skills are completely dependent on time invested in improving them, and nothing more. It is completely unrelated to sex.
On May 05 2011 04:46 Sueco wrote: And you need to read up on the scientific method if you think that modern neurology can unequivocally state that the male brain has an inherent advantage at strategy gaming.
It's not even about the mind. Open a biology textbook beyond first year, and you'll find plenty. We're not just talking about how the brain differs (which it does unequivocally), but we're talking physically as well.
And before the "moving a mouse isn't physical" nonsense comes out, we're talking about the differences in motor skills, dexterity, etc... Add in the thought process differences and it's not hard to see. And this is all found by reading.
Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn?
Prolly just angst-fueled nerds who hate hot chicks in general because they can't get with such attractive girls.
Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn?
Prolly just angst-fueled nerds who hate hot chicks in general because they can't get with such attractive girls.
I have absolutely no problem with attractive women (and have "gotten with" a couple, too). Believe it or not, it is actually possible to like a picture while not being so female deprived that I can admit there are places where it does not belong, regardless of the fact that it might look attractive. But please, continue with the ad hominem.
So if every asshole male could stop being a carebear to that it's "gurls" playing and just realise that she's probably better than 99% of the people here and she just won a cup, this would be a better community and we'd get a more balanced gender base.
My girlfriend works in video games so I know it's not easy because it's one of the most sexist industries known... either way for as someone said in another topic regarding girl gaming; For every 1 girl gamer theres atleast 20 males, so for every 1 000 000 girls theres 20 000 000 males and if the real "pro" gamers only make 0.0001% of the player pool then there will be less woman pro's. Not because they are genetically programmed to make sandviches instead of kicking your ass in starcraft 2 but because there's simply not as many playing it.
Good job on the win, hope she continues to get better!
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Because pictures of korean/foreigner players posing in and looking sexy is totally unknown? Fuck off it's a media trick everyone does.
On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote: Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio?
people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest.
my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me.
gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run
On May 05 2011 11:27 bwally wrote: The problem is do girls really need to post pics like this along with posts....it just seems like more for attention than anything else.
I could see the first couple pics (in the OP) as being appropriate for an interview, but the third is really just a glamor shot/mirror picture and doesn't really belong in an interview thread at all - I'm all for female cups, winner interviews, all that stuff, but at least keep them focused on sc2 instead of "oh look it's a girl." It ends up detracting a lot from a legitimate OP, in my opinion.
Why are people complaining about pics of hot girls being posted. Hot girls that play Starcraft nonetheless. Am I on the internet or did I take a wrong turn?
Prolly just angst-fueled nerds who hate hot chicks in general because they can't get with such attractive girls.
I have absolutely no problem with attractive women (and have "gotten with" a couple, too). Believe it or not, it is actually possible to like a picture while not being so female deprived that I can admit there are places where it does not belong, regardless of the fact that it might look attractive. But please, continue with the ad hominem.
Yea i bet chicks just find you soooo fun. I have little doubt you make the ladies gooooo craaazy! ><
People like you make me want to rip my eyelids off with pliers.
I just thank God that there are people like you around to make sure everything is prim, proper, and politically correct. You should be given the title of Knight of Decency and we should all bask in your self-righteous fury. Save it for church, Priest.
On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote: Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio?
people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest.
my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me.
gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run
A Girl-cup is a way of female gamers to associate with other female gamers and create potential friendships, which encourages them to play more. This increases the involvement in SC2 and E-sports.
Its not a huge professional tournament with thousands of dollars on line so why not allow female gamers to meet others in a controlled and competitive environment?
On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote: Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio?
people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest.
my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me.
gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run
A Girl-cup is a way of female gamers to associate with other female gamers and create potential friendships, which encourages them to play more. This increases the involvement in SC2 and E-sports.
Its not a huge professional tournament with thousands of dollars on line so why not allow female gamers to meet others in a controlled and competitive environment?
Egalitarianism is great and all but in a competition dominated by male participation, highlighting female gamer successes and contributions is not the worst thing in the world. There are no explicit restrictions but social norms and insecure individuals do pressure out or subjugate any outward female presence in the community. Its not all equal, not by a long shot.
When a female gamer speaks or it becomes generally known she is a girl, they commonly get hit with gender specific, cliche jokes or totally objectified and polarized. If they are going to get singled out in some manner, at least until outward female gaming becomes the norm, then kudos to them for taking the initiative and displaying female gaming in their own light rather then in the less then tasteful manner you get in many other games.
Besides, creating a few female gaming icons to encourage more outward female participation in the future is a good thing in the long run.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote:there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.]
The same exact argument can be made of the Korean/non-Korean divide. The problem is that culture matters. Before we can reach the ideal point (no distinction between male/female or Korean/non-Korean), there need to be means of encouraging the growth of these flagging sectors. We've spent a lot of energy making sure non-Korean eSports remains competitive with Korean - some think we've reached that point (myself included) - but we can't forget that there was a point when non-Korean StarCraft was far inferior to Korean, and without special care paid to our community it's doubtful we could've generated the community we have now.
The same opportunity should be granted to women, for whom eSports is still a hostile environment (this thread is evidence).
On May 05 2011 11:58 lachy89 wrote: Its annoying so many male gamers are having a go at all the female events that occur.
We WANT female gamers, we should be encouraging them and not holding them down. I am personally quite disappointed with all the ridiculous male gamer ego in this thread, its not needed and does not help E-Sports in anyway, shape or form.
That aside,
Grats Flo on the Tourny win and all the best in the future! ^^
i dont care if the player is male or female, i dont see how any mention of it is helpful to anyone. why do we want female gamers exactly? when watching a zealot kill a marine what kind of weird person is worried about the boob to penis ratio?
people defending "the girls" tend to use the virgin argument, but i would argue that anyone so desperate to get girls into something is probably the virgin, all of its irrelevant but people seem to like to use everything as a penis measuring contest.
my only reason for disliking girlcups is because i dislike banning any group of people from starcraft. there is no physical reason for other people to be better than you, so banning people who are better than you just ruins everything for me.
gratz to her on her win though. its their choice at the end of the day what kind of cup they want to run
A Girl-cup is a way of female gamers to associate with other female gamers and create potential friendships, which encourages them to play more. This increases the involvement in SC2 and E-sports.
Its not a huge professional tournament with thousands of dollars on line so why not allow female gamers to meet others in a controlled and competitive environment?
Yeah this, it's naive and usually 90% males whom have no female partner that don't realize how cold, unforgiving and inhospitable gaming can be to girls. There is a reason who not alot of woman play games. If nothing else it makes alot of woman feel less alienated and part of the movement which is starcraft, just as with bronze/silver tournaments. Or is the doublequoted person going to whine on them for exluding people aswell? Not saying girls are fragile here, saying nerds are ignorant assholes who argue for the sake of arguing alot which would tire anyone who just wants to play a game and have fun whilst doing it... not being questioned why they were born with a vagine instead of a penis.
Anyway I'll leave this be for now as to not derail it any further.
Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote: Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined.
Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
I think it's pretty amusing how TL.net has had a long, illustrious history (especially during Brood War) of having tournaments that are 'foreigner only'. How are these any different from female-only tournaments? In both cases, the best of the best players don't play. People throw a hissy fit about this, but not about foreigner tournaments?
Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote: Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined.
Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
Yeah, old statistics are usually incorrect statistics, especially regarding woman/races. Note some of those statistics are older than womans right to vote in Switzerland
Ofcourse there are differences, I just don't think there so big as to woman never being able to beat males at cognitive thinking and playing games. In sports woman will always be lesser than males in muscle and thus perform less... but that is at the top 0.0000001 performing since the woman in the olympics are better than just about any male on earth other than those males in the olympics.
(EDIT: Sorry said I would keep off but was just to tempted to comment on this)
I really think its pretty bad form to turn this thread into this type of debate.
After winning, well, anything and seeing a thread about it go up... Do you really think that person wants to read an off-topic discussion about whether the tournament type they just won, should even exist?
I know thats the last thing Id want to read anyway...
On May 05 2011 12:35 divito wrote: Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote: Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined.
Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
So basically what you are saying is that men are inherently mentally and physically better at sc2 than women...?
The studies you offer are no evidence of the ludicrous claims you make. The idea that men and women in general may 'think' differently, in no way implies an inherent, sex related advantage to sc2. Don't try to obscure blatant sexism with the pretense of 'enlightening' others. You could argue men and women play sc2 differently if they process it differently, but your conclusion is the result of ignorance and sexism-- nothing else.
Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote: Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined.
Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
But aren't all those differences tested with some kind of IQ tests with the problems something relatively new to the test participants? Gaming could be very different because the top players have played for hours every day for years. All that practice makes factors like motivation and focus while practicing most important for the end result of individuals.
Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote: Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined.
Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
I would be more inclined to suggest that the sheer lack of female gamers, especially hardcore ones, brings about a lower average skill level for the best female gamers. Many who have the potential to be the next female Flash simply never pick up gaming because either 1) society frowns upon it or 2) they are never introduced (by a friend or otherwise) to begin with.
On May 05 2011 12:35 divito wrote: Since people seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, I'm not saying that women are incapable of beating any males, but differences in their mental and physical makeup guarantee differences. The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:55 rO_Or wrote: Why don't you post some sources to back up your ludicrous claims. I really can't tell if youre trying to troll or being serious and just very ignorant.
Trolling has no interest for me. I speak from having the knowledge of what I've studied along with my friends. Most of my textbooks are in storage, so I can't quote directly, but I found a site that lists a few of the sources I've seen, and it's all contained within one site. Everyone will be able to read up if they're so inclined.
Granted there is nothing current, but if I happen to go to storage in the next few days, I'll pull out some more current stuff for everyone.
Be very careful how you interpret data like that. Without knowing how the data were gathered or what the variances are like it's very risky drawing conclusions.
It may be true that the average male has better spatial reasoning than the average female. But if 47% of females still have better spatial reasoning than the average male, what does knowing a person's sex tell you about their spatial reasoning? If gender only explains 5% of that variance, it's practically useless information even if it's statistically significant.
It's also difficult/impossible to know whether the differences are inherent genetic differences or societally influenced.
You can look at a person, identify their sex, and you can make a pretty reliable guess about what genitals they have. But knowing their sex gives you no information that can reliably tell you how that person's mind works.
NinjaEdit: In any case, Flo is a badass baller and deserves to have this thread focus on her accomplishements.
Edit2: Sorry Flo for helping to derail the thread. Best luck in all of your SC2 endeavors and know that you've earned a lot of new fans!
On May 05 2011 12:46 RedJustice wrote: The studies you offer are no evidence of the ludicrous claims you make. The idea that men and women in general may 'think' differently, in no way implies an inherent, sex related advantage to sc2. Don't try to obscure blatant sexism with the pretense of 'enlightening' others. You could argue men and women play sc2 differently if they process it differently, but your conclusion is the result of ignorance and sexism-- nothing else.
LOL. Straw man. Not even close to what I was suggesting.
On May 05 2011 12:46 RedJustice wrote: The studies you offer are no evidence of the ludicrous claims you make. The idea that men and women in general may 'think' differently, in no way implies an inherent, sex related advantage to sc2. Don't try to obscure blatant sexism with the pretense of 'enlightening' others. You could argue men and women play sc2 differently if they process it differently, but your conclusion is the result of ignorance and sexism-- nothing else.
LOL. Straw man. Not even close to what I was suggesting.
Orly because...
On May 05 2011 12:35 divito wrote: The main reason for my posts are to hopefully enlighten people that seem to mistakenly believe that there are no differences that would allow males to perform better.
On May 05 2011 11:39 divito wrote: It's not even about the mind. Open a biology textbook beyond first year, and you'll find plenty. We're not just talking about how the brain differs (which it does unequivocally), but we're talking physically as well.
And before the "moving a mouse isn't physical" nonsense comes out, we're talking about the differences in motor skills, dexterity, etc... Add in the thought process differences and it's not hard to see. And this is all found by reading.
So basically you said-- you are trying to inform people they are wrong to think males do not differ from females in a way that allows them to perform better (than females), one which example you gave as being physical (moving a mouse), and then others being related to the way the male and female brains process information.
Either you are having great difficulties properly communicating your meaning, or I am not misconstruing and misinterpreting what you are saying at all, and which case you are just making a ridiculous, sexist conclusion that any inherent differences between men and women make men 'better' at sc2.
On May 05 2011 13:33 Hot_Bid wrote: Can we stop the offtopic bullshit please?
Every single time...
I have no idea why TL staff needs to warn every single post that they disagree with. moderating a website is fine, but i think sometimes the admins go to far, it makes people scared to post something that might be very relevant in fear of being banned. I understand that people post inappropriate things, but half of this stuff is not even that bad. I just don't get why people cant discuss a subject that is of interest without getting some temp ban or warning, when the post is not even offensive.
I have felt this way on many other subjects, but i guess i just wanted to get this out now... I have not posted many things on this forum, but i have been around for quiet some time. I thought that this was something that needed to be said.
On May 05 2011 13:33 Hot_Bid wrote: Can we stop the offtopic bullshit please?
Every single time...
I have no idea why TL staff needs to warn every single post that they disagree with. moderating a website is fine, but i think sometimes the admins go to far, it makes people scared to post something that might be very relevant in fear of being banned. I understand that people post inappropriate things, but half of this stuff is not even that bad. I just don't get why people cant discuss a subject that is of interest without getting some temp ban or warning, when the post is not even offensive.
I have felt this way on many other subjects, but i guess i just wanted to get this out now... I have not posted many things on this forum, but i have been around for quiet some time. I thought that this was something that needed to be said.
I want this site to stay the best :D
Congrats on the win Flo :D
He warned people that were posting stuff that he deemed irrelevant (white knighters, tourney complainers), highly doubt hot bid just said "LETS WARN THIS ENTIRE PAGE~!"
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
The thing is men are better than women, that's just how it is and will always be.
For example, name a couple of things which women are better than men at, for example world records, nothing comes to mind when I try to think about anything that women are better at.
On April 25 2011 20:04 annul wrote: you argue that "the reason they get attention is because we give them attention, so it's our fault."
you infer that this is why people complain about the female cup.
you are incorrect.
YOU all divide the community across the gender line by running the "female cup." period.
there is no fundamental difference in a male person's physiological make-up that determines whether they will be more skilled at this game than a female. if there is a cultural split, work on mending that. there is no split in the game itself. let people's skill shine, not their gender.
User was temp banned for this post.
The thing is men are better than women, that's just how it is and will always be.
For example, name a couple of things which women are better than men at, for example world records, nothing comes to mind when I try to think about anything that women are better at.
Incoming temp ban. I suppose you're trolling though, and fully expect it.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa425/EZSC2/flo2s.png)
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