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Heart of the Swarm to be Unveiled Next Month - Page 31

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
May 24 2011 01:28 GMT
#601

So my wish for HotS, in a nutshell, is for Zerg to become a little more surprising and a little less easily surprised. After that, it can be balanced more accurately and easily with the other races, who will in turn feel less obliged to go for the bullsh... surprising win.

I will agree with, to some degree, the complete opposite of this. IMO, the "BO/ surprise, etc" loss is due to 99% bad play (not reading the signs that could reveal a strategy) but, at high levels especially, this is often times because of limited scouting options (for all races).

Terran has to choose between econ and scan, scan that might not actually tell anything. Protoss has to build the observers from the same building that makes vital units. Zerg needs lair. Often times by the time you get in to the position to scout it can be to late.

For HOTS i would very much like the scouting options to be improved. Destroying entire strategies though nerfs it not right IMO (thor nerf LOL) If you "hide" somewhere on the map certain things for an all in or something and the opposing player fails in scouting then it's ok. Wanting to scout a main and simply not being able to is bad :p

And a FACTORY unit that is good against armored air.

That is all i want for Christmas!
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
rbx270j
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada540 Posts
May 24 2011 01:35 GMT
#602
On May 24 2011 10:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Show nested quote +

So my wish for HotS, in a nutshell, is for Zerg to become a little more surprising and a little less easily surprised. After that, it can be balanced more accurately and easily with the other races, who will in turn feel less obliged to go for the bullsh... surprising win.

I will agree with, to some degree, the complete opposite of this. IMO, the "BO/ surprise, etc" loss is due to 99% bad play (not reading the signs that could reveal a strategy) but, at high levels especially, this is often times because of limited scouting options (for all races).

Terran has to choose between econ and scan, scan that might not actually tell anything. Protoss has to build the observers from the same building that makes vital units. Zerg needs lair. Often times by the time you get in to the position to scout it can be to late.

For HOTS i would very much like the scouting options to be improved. Destroying entire strategies though nerfs it not right IMO (thor nerf LOL) If you "hide" somewhere on the map certain things for an all in or something and the opposing player fails in scouting then it's ok. Wanting to scout a main and simply not being able to is bad :p

And a FACTORY unit that is good against armored air.

That is all i want for Christmas!



And I want Terran to have a melee T1 unit instead of marines but that aint gonna happen
Stiluz
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway688 Posts
May 24 2011 01:37 GMT
#603
On May 24 2011 07:19 Umpteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2011 05:27 Sakarabu wrote:As for ZvT, from a spectator standpoint it feels completely in the Zerg's favour. It's time Zerg stopped whining, it's getting really tiring and completely unfounded.


I wanted to use this as a springboard for expressing my own hopes with regards to HotS.

I've long since lost count of the number of times some full or partial version of the following sentiment has been expressed on these boards:

"Zergs just aren't innovating the way Terran and Protoss players are. I mean, we've had phoenix openers, 4-gate, 6-gate, blink, 3 gate expand, all manner of 2-rax, banshees, marauder/hellion, thor rushes - and what do Zerg do? 6-pool, or whine if they can't hatch first in close positions. What are they complaining about; they win GSLs don't they?"

Yes, Zerg players have been unusually vocal since release, and while the intervening balance changes perhaps vindicate some of the QQ, the other matchups have changed at least as profoundly and so ought, by the same logic, to have curtailed or precipitated equal displeasure from the other races. Since this hasn't happened, what are Zerg players bitching about?

Short version: most QQ isn't about balance. It's about surprise.

For the long version, we turn first to Day[9]. Watch enough of him, and he'll end up telling you that a strategy that relies upon surprising your opponent isn't a good strategy, which is good advice if you're playing a highly refined, decade-old game like Broodwar where there are always a half-dozen well-known tells to give you away.

But this is Starcraft 2, a much younger and less well-understood game. And of the three races, it turned out that Zerg is, by some considerable margin, the easiest to surprise, and has the fewest (or the least apparent) surprises up its chitin.

This fact is not obvious upon a cursory inspection of the Zerg tech tree. Burrowed banelings sound like they have the potential to be pretty fucking surprising. Infestors burrowing into your mineral line. Roaches popping up and down and refusing to die. Overseers gooping up your buildings. Nydus worms. It sounds like Zerg has everything they need to surprise the living shit out of everyone.

Unfortunately, it didn't seem to work out that way. While it turned out that Terran could pretty safely rush for banshees or blue-flame hellions or Thors or drops, and Protoss could pretty safely rush for DTs or blink stalkers or Phoenix or Void Rays (pick a tech, and rushing for it has paid off for T and P over the past year) there really wasn't much Zerg could rush for that wouldn't be shut down or beaten to the punch by most things his opponent was likely to be doing. And even when a given build ceased to be a complete surprise, a lot of Protoss and Terran effort was expended finding ways to conceal what they were doing or misdirect their Zerg opponents.

And yet. And yet.

Despite the inarguably large proportion of games Zergs all over the world and at all levels were losing to surprising strategies (or 'bullshit' as it is pronounced in the Zerg tongue), they held their ground on the ladder and - though tending to be somewhat under-represented in tournaments - nevertheless walked away with the coveted GSL title more than once.

That should be ringing alarm bells somewhere. Zerg players in general doing OK despite high rates of build-order loss? Zerg pros generally not doing so well, but one or two dominating? Hmm.

A race ought not to be kept in check largely through the element of surprise. Either the surprises will cease to be effective - in which case the game will end up broken at the pro level or imbalanced for casual play - or the success of Zerg pros will become a coinflip.

So my wish for HotS, in a nutshell, is for Zerg to become a little more surprising and a little less easily surprised. After that, it can be balanced more accurately and easily with the other races, who will in turn feel less obliged to go for the bullsh... surprising win.


You sir, have expressed what I've felt for a long time. Excellent put.
OhMyGawd
Profile Joined February 2011
United States264 Posts
May 24 2011 01:37 GMT
#604
On May 24 2011 10:35 rbx270j wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2011 10:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:

So my wish for HotS, in a nutshell, is for Zerg to become a little more surprising and a little less easily surprised. After that, it can be balanced more accurately and easily with the other races, who will in turn feel less obliged to go for the bullsh... surprising win.

I will agree with, to some degree, the complete opposite of this. IMO, the "BO/ surprise, etc" loss is due to 99% bad play (not reading the signs that could reveal a strategy) but, at high levels especially, this is often times because of limited scouting options (for all races).

Terran has to choose between econ and scan, scan that might not actually tell anything. Protoss has to build the observers from the same building that makes vital units. Zerg needs lair. Often times by the time you get in to the position to scout it can be to late.

For HOTS i would very much like the scouting options to be improved. Destroying entire strategies though nerfs it not right IMO (thor nerf LOL) If you "hide" somewhere on the map certain things for an all in or something and the opposing player fails in scouting then it's ok. Wanting to scout a main and simply not being able to is bad :p

And a FACTORY unit that is good against armored air.

That is all i want for Christmas!



And I want Terran to have a melee T1 unit instead of marines but that aint gonna happen

Terran melee unit instead of a marine? You mean an Scv..... Bado tosshhh
zomg
masterbreti
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)2711 Posts
May 24 2011 01:39 GMT
#605
The only thing that worries me is they say they are introducing a rpg like mechanic.

I'm hoping this is for single player only, making a rts more like a rpg just sounds wrong
Silverion
Profile Joined May 2011
Spain8 Posts
May 24 2011 01:39 GMT
#606
I just want to see one thing: LURKERS.
RaLakedaimon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1564 Posts
May 24 2011 01:44 GMT
#607
Hope this isn't one of those things that separates the ladder within this year cause I'm so broke I can't afford another game lol. Still very exciting I can't wait to see where they take the story because it seems kind of a crazy ending the current game.
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
May 24 2011 01:55 GMT
#608
Stiluz is an intelligent man.

That said, his observations are not that surprising from a purely mathematical perspective, zerg units are overwhelmingly strong cost for cost in most departments, and also lack much of the finesse required to achieve the most out of say, siege tanks, stimmed marines, blink stalkers or immortals. this makes them incredibly strong if you can get them out properly and use them in the right places.

In some ways this is appropriate for the race, but I'm finding it increasingly hard to justify from a design perspective, it gives the race such a tremendously different feel that a zerg player gets their rewards from entirely different areas to a toss or terran, and that makes the game a nightmare on the development end.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
ChowChillaCharlie
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden677 Posts
May 24 2011 01:57 GMT
#609
Has there been an actual date set for this? Or are we still on "sometime this week"?
Scigrex
Profile Joined August 2010
United States34 Posts
May 24 2011 03:57 GMT
#610
On May 24 2011 10:39 masterbreti wrote:
The only thing that worries me is they say they are introducing a rpg like mechanic.

I'm hoping this is for single player only, making a rts more like a rpg just sounds wrong


It has been confirmed that the RPG mechanic will be only in single player. It has been known for a while that the campaign will have Kerrigan gaining new abilities and such for her swarm in an RPG like fashion. There will be no RPG elements in multiplayer so don't worry about that.
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
May 24 2011 04:04 GMT
#611
On May 24 2011 10:57 ChowChillaCharlie wrote:
Has there been an actual date set for this? Or are we still on "sometime this week"?


If it's the same thing that Sen is attending to, then I think it will be May 25th.
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
May 24 2011 04:14 GMT
#612
I love how people read "RPG like mechanics" and suddenly the red flags went up, and they didn't read anything else.

That was said by the Kotaku author, not by blizzard. It was basically saying "the single player will probably have a shop and upgrades like in WoL's singleplayer" and it was complete speculation.
voltaic
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1071 Posts
May 24 2011 07:24 GMT
#613
dunno if it's true, but it seems like we won't get any information until may 31st, because of nda (?)

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2548840145
pR0gR4m3R
Profile Joined February 2008
Spain1446 Posts
May 24 2011 07:27 GMT
#614
On May 24 2011 16:24 Denda Reloaded wrote:
dunno if it's true, but it seems like we won't get any information until may 31st, because of nda (?)

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2548840145


Yes, I confirm

Greetings from Irvine. Tomorrow will be testing HotS
StarCraft-ESP.com Admin - Spanish StarCraft Community
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
May 24 2011 07:29 GMT
#615
On May 24 2011 13:14 TedJustice wrote:
I love how people read "RPG like mechanics" and suddenly the red flags went up, and they didn't read anything else.

That was said by the Kotaku author, not by blizzard. It was basically saying "the single player will probably have a shop and upgrades like in WoL's singleplayer" and it was complete speculation.

uhh
what the fuck lol

blizzard has stated that hots will have role playing elements since before sc2 was released

get your facts straight before ragging on people who "didn't read anything else"
lalala
voltaic
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1071 Posts
May 24 2011 07:38 GMT
#616
:/
first hots info 31st may =(
voltaic
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1071 Posts
May 24 2011 10:45 GMT
#617
the source that i posted before says the hands-on is on my 24th, not 25th may, anybody knows better?
Cabinet Sanchez
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia1097 Posts
May 24 2011 14:49 GMT
#618
So many ill informed posts here. The RPG stuff has always been applicable to te single player. Blizzard have made it clear multiple times, the MP gameplay will not be majorly changed besides a couple of units and standard balance.
Relax people.
MindRush
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania916 Posts
May 24 2011 14:55 GMT
#619
wowz, imagine the madness when the news will actually come true.
1st official movie, first campaign 1st person presentation, first battle report where david kim pawns some noob developer.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
DARKHYDRA
Profile Joined September 2006
United States303 Posts
May 24 2011 15:09 GMT
#620
Wonderin what they're gonna do with zerg campaign units like the abberation.

Anyway hoping we get a Queen speed upgrade for MP
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