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On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:
How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that.
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game.
The roach isn't successful because it wasn't in BW, duh!
It also amuses me greatly that people actually still take idra's balance comments seriously.
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On May 23 2011 03:47 Fleebenworth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:
How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that.
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game. The roach isn't successful because it wasn't in BW, duh! It also amuses me greatly that people actually still take idra's balance comments seriously.
Why does that amuse you? You're suggesting that IdrA's opinions on balance have no merit. Do you actually have an argument for that position?
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oh man i really cant wait for this exp to come out gezzz hurry up already blizz hehe XD
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On May 23 2011 03:44 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:31 Elefanto wrote:On May 23 2011 03:25 Spawkuring wrote:On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:On May 23 2011 02:32 lowercase wrote:On May 22 2011 20:20 Noocta wrote:On May 22 2011 19:52 Snickersnee wrote:
Instead of saying I want all the old units.(Scourge Plz) I want blizz to actually give zerg units that aren't completely unoriginal. Also reworking the build tress would be a dream. T1 Hydra :D Well, the new unit zerg had for WoL are almost all failed one. ( Roach, Corruptor ) So i can't disagree with bring old units who work. :d I'd say the baneling was a pretty successful addition. Otherwise, yeah, most of the new units are inferior to their BW counterparts. How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that. The corruptor is just a renamed/slightly altered devourer, and it's about as shitty as the original Usually people define success as: 1. Having a lot of micro potential AND/OR 2. Being a very entertaining unit to watch and play The roach mostly fails on both of these because using them is very basic: You mass them up in deathballs and throw them at the enemy, occasionally using kite micro. They also aren't very interesting units to watch or play. You can pick dozens upon dozens of videos where the audience goes crazy watching reaver play, and even baneling play. You'll never see that for roaches. All they have is burrow, which at the moment is very situational. you can't have only microable units. you also need solid core units. hydras in bw weren't special either for instance. the roach was a successful implemented core unit for zerg ground combat, if you wanna see it that way I think the problem is that ZvZ and ZvP are mostly huge roaches army. There's not a problem with having a backbone to your army, but it's almost 90% of roaches and nothing really exiting with them. Hydra + Lurker is hella more entertaining than, let's say Roaches infestor battle in ZvZ, or a massive roach corurptor army in ZvP.
I agree but I don't think this is the roaches fault. It's the lack of good counters to them, plus the terribad nature of Zerg alternatives (like the lolhydra).
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It's just pretty obvious that he's extremely biased. Of course he thinks dark swarm was stupid, he played Terran. + Show Spoiler +He also thinks Zerg are the weakest in sc2
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On May 23 2011 03:51 OldManZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:47 Fleebenworth wrote:On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:
How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that.
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game. The roach isn't successful because it wasn't in BW, duh! It also amuses me greatly that people actually still take idra's balance comments seriously. Why does that amuse you? You're suggesting that IdrA's opinions on balance have no merit. Do you actually have an argument for that position?
People tend to ignore Idras opinions on balance because he has a long history of balance whine. There might be nuggets of truth in what he says but people should really rally around someone with more credibility.
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On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 02:32 lowercase wrote:On May 22 2011 20:20 Noocta wrote:On May 22 2011 19:52 Snickersnee wrote:
Instead of saying I want all the old units.(Scourge Plz) I want blizz to actually give zerg units that aren't completely unoriginal. Also reworking the build tress would be a dream. T1 Hydra :D Well, the new unit zerg had for WoL are almost all failed one. ( Roach, Corruptor ) So i can't disagree with bring old units who work. :d I'd say the baneling was a pretty successful addition. Otherwise, yeah, most of the new units are inferior to their BW counterparts. How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that. The corruptor is just a renamed/slightly altered devourer, and it's about as shitty as the original. Show nested quote +
He never says that the Infestor is better than the Defiler, just that its a good unit that has it place. (Unless i skipped that line).
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game. Zerg definitely needs a new caster, but please nothing like the defiler.
I disagree the zerg does not need a new caster. Infestors and queens satisfy me as a zerg player, each race has 2 caster, zerg's casters are good.
As I said before in this thread we need a better T1 unit with longer range. Like bw.
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Does the announcement of new zerg units imply that there won't be new terran and protoss units? If so, will there not be any new units in the multiplayer?
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On May 23 2011 03:55 Datum wrote:
Does the announcement of new zerg units imply that there won't be new terran and protoss units? If so, will there not be any new units in the multiplayer?
Not at all, They did add new units when the expansion pack of WC3 came out they added new units to all races. Obviously they are going to add new units to all races here as well. Because zerg is obviously missing something but its very hard to tell what it is we are all discussing that subject.
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Cant wait for the new units...hope they dont remove all the old ones too..
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TLADT24920 Posts
Considering they mentioned that they will add new units but not change the total unit count(can't remember where I read that), anyone else have a feeling that we'll get a lot of new abilities to play with? Imagine getting spider mines, AOE cannons for the thors, etc.... basically abilities that were originally in back when SCII was being made but were considered OP at the time and they have reworked them now 
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I'm not even zerg but if they can find a way to put lurkers in the game, I'll be happy.
And I don't know how that would work (probably wouldn't) but <3 Reaver drops.
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Blizzard classically adds some RPG elements into their best RTS games. I for one would LOVE to manage kerrigan's inventory 8 ) One of the few things i felt was lacking in the Wings of Liberty campaign was the hero aspect. Don't get me wrong, taking out 100's of terran units with Zeratul skillz was incredible. but there was no real sense of continuation, and it didn't feel like i was building on these heros at all. Would be a bit more interesting if there were some stats to be jacked, and maybe some more skillz to be learned. Cant Wait!!
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On May 23 2011 04:27 Djzapz wrote:
I'm not even zerg but if they can find a way to put lurkers in the game, I'll be happy.
And I don't know how that would work (probably wouldn't) but <3 Reaver drops.
Honestly lurkers probably wouldn't be to good in this game. Pretty sure marauders would tear them apart, immortals, blink stalkers, colossi. Like everything but zealots/sentries that toss has would counter lurkers. May be useful vs terran but then again I could see it not being that good either.
I do hope we get a new unit or 2 but do hope its not the lurker, loved it in bw, don't think it belongs in sc2  .
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On May 23 2011 04:33 Moldwood wrote:
Blizzard classically adds some RPG elements into their best RTS games. I for one would LOVE to manage kerrigan's inventory 8 ) One of the few things i felt was lacking in the Wings of Liberty campaign was the hero aspect. Don't get me wrong, taking out 100's of terran units with Zeratul skillz was incredible. but there was no real sense of continuation, and it didn't feel like i was building on these heros at all. Would be a bit more interesting if there were some stats to be jacked, and maybe some more skillz to be learned. Cant Wait!!
It is a RTS you know? :p
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On May 23 2011 03:55 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:On May 23 2011 02:32 lowercase wrote:On May 22 2011 20:20 Noocta wrote:On May 22 2011 19:52 Snickersnee wrote:
Instead of saying I want all the old units.(Scourge Plz) I want blizz to actually give zerg units that aren't completely unoriginal. Also reworking the build tress would be a dream. T1 Hydra :D Well, the new unit zerg had for WoL are almost all failed one. ( Roach, Corruptor ) So i can't disagree with bring old units who work. :d I'd say the baneling was a pretty successful addition. Otherwise, yeah, most of the new units are inferior to their BW counterparts. How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that. The corruptor is just a renamed/slightly altered devourer, and it's about as shitty as the original.
He never says that the Infestor is better than the Defiler, just that its a good unit that has it place. (Unless i skipped that line).
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game. Zerg definitely needs a new caster, but please nothing like the defiler. I disagree the zerg does not need a new caster. Infestors and queens satisfy me as a zerg player, each race has 2 caster, zerg's casters are good. As I said before in this thread we need a better T1 unit with longer range. Like bw.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but the Queen isn't really a caster. Transfusion is the only combat skill the Queen has, the other two are Macro. If we're defining macro skills as being casters - then Orbitals and Nexuses are also casters. As for the heals, if they count, then Medivacs are casters.
Overseer + Infestor. Those are the two zerg casters, one is offensive and one is utility. Just like the other two races have.
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On May 23 2011 04:39 Ihpares wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:55 Walls wrote:On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:On May 23 2011 02:32 lowercase wrote:On May 22 2011 20:20 Noocta wrote:On May 22 2011 19:52 Snickersnee wrote:
Instead of saying I want all the old units.(Scourge Plz) I want blizz to actually give zerg units that aren't completely unoriginal. Also reworking the build tress would be a dream. T1 Hydra :D Well, the new unit zerg had for WoL are almost all failed one. ( Roach, Corruptor ) So i can't disagree with bring old units who work. :d I'd say the baneling was a pretty successful addition. Otherwise, yeah, most of the new units are inferior to their BW counterparts. How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that. The corruptor is just a renamed/slightly altered devourer, and it's about as shitty as the original.
He never says that the Infestor is better than the Defiler, just that its a good unit that has it place. (Unless i skipped that line).
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game. Zerg definitely needs a new caster, but please nothing like the defiler. I disagree the zerg does not need a new caster. Infestors and queens satisfy me as a zerg player, each race has 2 caster, zerg's casters are good. As I said before in this thread we need a better T1 unit with longer range. Like bw. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but the Queen isn't really a caster. Transfusion is the only combat skill the Queen has, the other two are Macro. If we're defining macro skills as being casters - then Orbitals and Nexuses are also casters. As for the heals, if they count, then Medivacs are casters. Overseer + Infestor. Those are the two zerg casters, one is offensive and one is utility. Just like the other two races have.
I think it's reasonable to say that Queens are casters, since their healing ability is a targeted one that requires micro (if Medivacs only healed targeted units, they would be casters). Nexus and CC are not units, so calling them "casters" is mayyybe technically true, but basically just a word game/asinine comparison.
Corruptors also straddle the gray area since their primary function is not as casters, but they do have a targeting spell.
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On May 23 2011 03:51 OldManZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:47 Fleebenworth wrote:On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:
How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that.
Well he says dark swarm is a stupid ability, and that kind of defines the defiler...remember he played Terran in BW, and from Terran's POV dark swarm is a stupid, stupid ability. I'd agree personally, makes for a silly "catch the defiler!" game. The roach isn't successful because it wasn't in BW, duh! It also amuses me greatly that people actually still take idra's balance comments seriously. Why does that amuse you? You're suggesting that IdrA's opinions on balance have no merit. Do you actually have an argument for that position?
There isn't an argument to say IdrA's arguments have no merit but there is significant reason to take everything he says on balance with a grain of salt. Apart from his long history of baseless complaining in BW, the position he has built up in his head is unassailable and impossible to disprove and therefore nearly meaningless.
He essentially thinks that it's impossible for a zerg to beat an equally skilled T/P opponent, but he also believes he is much better than almost all his opponents. So IdrA loses - zerg is broken, how else could he have lost to that piece of trash. Idra wins - he's supposed to beat these players, duh, they suck he's great. He won't think Z is balanced until he doesn't lose to anyone he thinks is worse than him, aka pretty much everyone.
It's easy to extend this logic when other zergs win - Ret? Super talented, trained in Korea, easy path. Nestea? Great player, opponents were terrible, watch the games not the results, proves nothing...
Hang on why are we talking about this tired old bollocks anyway?
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On May 23 2011 03:54 Fleebenworth wrote:
It's just pretty obvious that he's extremely biased. Of course he thinks dark swarm was stupid, he played Terran. He also thinks Zerg are the weakest in sc2
As do the majority of other pro gamers, as well as the majority of the community.
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On May 23 2011 03:36 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:31 Elefanto wrote:On May 23 2011 03:25 Spawkuring wrote:On May 23 2011 02:56 Yaotzin wrote:On May 23 2011 02:32 lowercase wrote:On May 22 2011 20:20 Noocta wrote:On May 22 2011 19:52 Snickersnee wrote:
Instead of saying I want all the old units.(Scourge Plz) I want blizz to actually give zerg units that aren't completely unoriginal. Also reworking the build tress would be a dream. T1 Hydra :D Well, the new unit zerg had for WoL are almost all failed one. ( Roach, Corruptor ) So i can't disagree with bring old units who work. :d I'd say the baneling was a pretty successful addition. Otherwise, yeah, most of the new units are inferior to their BW counterparts. How do you define success of a unit like the roach? It's used a ton, people use it's ability, not sure what else you can ask for from a combat unit like that. The corruptor is just a renamed/slightly altered devourer, and it's about as shitty as the original Usually people define success as: 1. Having a lot of micro potential AND/OR 2. Being a very entertaining unit to watch and play The roach mostly fails on both of these because using them is very basic: You mass them up in deathballs and throw them at the enemy, occasionally using kite micro. They also aren't very interesting units to watch or play. You can pick dozens upon dozens of videos where the audience goes crazy watching reaver play, and even baneling play. You'll never see that for roaches. All they have is burrow, which at the moment is very situational. you can't have only microable units. you also need solid core units. hydras in bw weren't special either for instance. the roach was a successful implemented core unit for zerg ground combat, if you wanna see it that way Why do we "need" unmicroable core units? Marines are core units, yet they have insane amounts of micro potential in both BW and SC2. In fact, there are very few mindless 1a units in the Terran army in both SC games at the moment. Marines, tanks, vultures, hellions, dropships. All these are core units, yet have many unique, and most importantly, effective ways of being controlled. You mention BW hydras, but I would argue that even they had good micro potential due to the BW pathing system: you actually had to position them to retain max DPS, instead of them automatically balling up like in SC2. There's a reason that T matchups almost always provide the most entertaining games in SC2, and their good unit design is a huge part of that.
Let's not confuse two definitions;
a) units that require micro
b) units that can be microed
Same as BW hydras, roaches fit very comfortably into category b. It's odd to me that you can see that marines can be micro intensive but miss out how good players never 1a roach balls...they split them, position them (arc > ball), flank with smaller groups of them, select a few to run up and snipe colossus; on creep especially roaches have large micro potential. Unlike, for example, thors.
The issue with the roach is not it's design but it's function in regards to the zerg army. If anyone could find that article on Blizzards design process that would be cool - it posits that the roach was a failed idea that Blizz refused to drop, instead shoe horning it into a role that didn't suit the zerg race and resulted in the bastardisation of the hydra into a near useless unit.
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