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On May 23 2011 05:09 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:54 Fleebenworth wrote:
It's just pretty obvious that he's extremely biased. Of course he thinks dark swarm was stupid, he played Terran. He also thinks Zerg are the weakest in sc2 As do the majority of other pro gamers, as well as the majority of the community.
Don't speak for the community. I'm 99% sure if you asked the "majority of progamers" they would tell you Zerg is very strong right now. You may have had a point 2-3 months ago, but alot has changed since then, and suprise suprise all it took was a metagame shift. Did everyone forget that Protoss didn't win ANYTHING up untill MC stormed the GSL and showed how the meta game could be changed? No protoss' whined about balance before MC came along, but after he won and popularized 6 gate / 3 gate expand suddenly Protoss was OP?
Now Zerg has figured out those timings and the meta game has greatly shifted again (As an example: Using banelings in ZvP would have gotten you laughed out of a thread up untill as little as a month ago, now they are extremely effective, requiring far more skill to stop banelings being dropped in your mineral lines than it does to perform the tactice), but a vocal minority of Zergs still whine about balance while sweeping major tournaments.
Look at the NASL results for Zerg, pretty sure they have won 80%+ of their games. Also look at the GSL super tournament, Protoss is the least represented race in it even though there are far less Pro Zerg players. I'm not whining here, i'm just presenting facts (something Zergs seem to forget sometimes, like the stats showing them dominating Protoss in both Ladder and Tournaments)
As for ZvT, from a spectator standpoint it feels completely in the Zerg's favour. It's time Zerg stopped whining, it's getting really tiring and completely unfounded.
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On May 23 2011 05:27 Sakarabu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 05:09 Karthane wrote:On May 23 2011 03:54 Fleebenworth wrote:
It's just pretty obvious that he's extremely biased. Of course he thinks dark swarm was stupid, he played Terran. He also thinks Zerg are the weakest in sc2 As do the majority of other pro gamers, as well as the majority of the community. Don't speak for the community. I'm 99% sure if you asked the "majority of progamers" they would tell you Zerg is very strong right now. You may have had a point 2-3 months ago, but alot has changed since then, and suprise suprise all it took was a metagame shift. Did everyone forget that Protoss didn't win ANYTHING up untill MC stormed the GSL and showed how the meta game could be changed? No protoss' whined about balance before MC came along, but after he won and popularized 6 gate / 3 gate expand suddenly Protoss was OP? Now Zerg has figured out those timings and the meta game has greatly shifted again (As an example: Using banelings in ZvP would have gotten you laughed out of a thread up untill as little as a month ago, now they are extremely effective, requiring far more skill to stop banelings being dropped in your mineral lines than it does to perform the tactice), but a vocal minority of Zergs still whine about balance while sweeping major tournaments. Look at the NASL results for Zerg, pretty sure they have won 80%+ of their games. Also look at the GSL super tournament, Protoss is the least represented race in it even though there are far less Pro Zerg players. I'm not whining here, i'm just presenting facts. As for ZvT, from a spectator standpoint it feels completely in the Zerg's favour. It's time Zerg stopped whining, it's getting really tiring.
patches help a bit with that bud (:
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On May 23 2011 05:09 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 03:54 Fleebenworth wrote:
It's just pretty obvious that he's extremely biased. Of course he thinks dark swarm was stupid, he played Terran. He also thinks Zerg are the weakest in sc2 As do the majority of other pro gamers, as well as the majority of the community.
Palpably untrue. A lot of zerg progamers think zerg is imbalanced but a lot of terran pro gamers think terran is the weakest. Korean protoss pros can be heard to say that PvZ is super hard for toss.
As for the community, probably the amount of zerg whine is higher than the others but I doubt you'll find too many T/P players saying 'Oh yeah zerg is broken it's awful'. Because of this little thing called bias, they see the weaknesses of their own race but the strengths of their opponents. Thus you get Nestea and MVP, both double GSL champions, both saying their race is hardest, on the same day (Artosis' IM tour).
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Why did this thread turn into a balance discussion?
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On May 23 2011 05:36 Zerksys wrote:
Why did this thread turn into a balance discussion?
You're in the Starcraft 2 section off the forum on Teamliquid.
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On May 23 2011 05:36 Zerksys wrote:
Why did this thread turn into a balance discussion?
Because it's a Starcraft 2 related thread. 
+ Show Spoiler +
You're right anyway, thread needs to stop being derailed. Guilty of that, I'll stop.
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This event is coming up fast!
So excited!
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On May 23 2011 03:54 Fleebenworth wrote:It's just pretty obvious that he's extremely biased. Of course he thinks dark swarm was stupid, he played Terran. + Show Spoiler +He also thinks Zerg are the weakest in sc2
he thought it was stupid because it made the game boring, not because he thought it was imbalanced afaik.
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On May 22 2011 21:05 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 21:01 SxYSpAz wrote:
i think that as far as keeping the game interesting and keeping sales up (so ultimately from a business perspective) it makes sense to throw in new units.
But godamn! how am i supposed to keep relearning this game? every time a new patch comes in i have to do a little reworking to my builds, but if new units come with this expansion imma be all fucked up. It's bad enough for me, i really feel for the pro players... well zergs might be happy Actually to keep the game fresh and interesting new things need to come. Unless you plan to be a pro relearning build orders and such is really not important as winning efficiently is not important as you will never get anything out of it.
thats exactly what i said. i understand it keeps the game interesting. i said exactly that. I'm just saying its a bitch having to rework my builds and adjust the way i react to certain situations. I also think that you can play competitively and still be genuinely annoyed by this without being a pro....
ideally i would love to get good enough to make money off of playing this game, and that's why its a little annoying... that being said, i reiterate that i understand it from a business standpoint and a casual players point of view. hell, i'll even end up having a lot of fun with it, but it will probably be somewhat equalized by my bitching
XD
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Alright, So you guys agreed that caster wise zerg is good, btw if corruptors are casters than what about phoenixes?
I still think that zerg needs a well rounded ranged Tier 1 unit the way it had it in the BW days.
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On May 23 2011 05:52 Walls wrote:
I still think that zerg needs a well rounded ranged Tier 1 unit the way it had it in the BW days.
It does. Queen. People don't make them enough. This is a metagame problem, not a balance problem.
That isn't the niche Zerg are missing right now. What Zerg is missing right now is something to take down scary targets, such as Battlecruisers, Thors, Colossi and Carriers (Carriers will get used more, I guarantee, either through metagame shift or patch). As of now, they have Corruptors... and that's it. Corruptors are trying to fill the niche of killing air + Colossi all at once, and they aren't really capable.
For Terran - my heart is saying a melee unit, my mind is hitting it hard with a nerdhammer and taking it back to the kennel. I can't really see a niche that has not been filled for Terran, especially a specialist harassment niche, given that nearly half of all Terran units are very harass-based. Perhaps a spell-caster? Protoss have HTs and Sentries, Zerg have Infestors and Queens, Terran have Ghosts and...?
Protoss - PLEASE give us something as good at harassment as BFH, banshees or just medivac drops. Phoenix are useful, but nowhere near as scary as BFH. You don't see a Phoenix coming and think: "Oh shit, I'd better move all my workers or they will die!"
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On May 23 2011 06:01 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 05:52 Walls wrote:
I still think that zerg needs a well rounded ranged Tier 1 unit the way it had it in the BW days. It does. Queen. People don't make them enough. This is a metagame problem, not a balance problem. That isn't the niche Zerg are missing right now. What Zerg is missing right now is something to take down scary targets, such as Battlecruisers, Thors, Colossi and Carriers (Carriers will get used more, I guarantee, either through metagame shift or patch). As of now, they have Corruptors... and that's it. Corruptors are trying to fill the niche of killing air + Colossi all at once, and they aren't really capable.
You are so on point with that I can't emphasis enough.
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On May 23 2011 06:01 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 05:52 Walls wrote:
I still think that zerg needs a well rounded ranged Tier 1 unit the way it had it in the BW days. It does. Queen. People don't make them enough. This is a metagame problem, not a balance problem.
It's hard to call queens a well rounded ranged unit when they can't be used aggressively and their ground attack is almost melee.. but I don't really think that zerg T1 needs anything new, it's more our hivetech which is lackluster.
On May 23 2011 06:01 SeaSwift wrote:
Perhaps a spell-caster? Protoss have HTs and Sentries, Zerg have Infestors and Queens, Terran have Ghosts and...?
raven?
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Just a question, in HotS will there only be new units for zerg? Or will the other races get new ones as well?
Or are we not completely sure at this point?
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On May 23 2011 06:08 darthfoley wrote:
Just a question, in HotS will there only be new units for zerg? Or will the other races get new ones as well?
Or are we not completely sure at this point?
all races, most likely.
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On May 23 2011 06:06 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
It's hard to call queens a well rounded ranged unit when they can't be used aggressively and their ground attack is almost melee.. but I don't really think that zerg T1 needs anything new, it's more our hivetech which is lackluster.
Fair enough. It's pretty subjective unless they become used as a staple in Zerg play as T1 ranged unit, and Zergs feel happy with it. I will say that if you are being aggressive as Zerg before Lair, the last thing you need is anti-air. If you are hitting that early, the whole point is to kill them before they can get air in threatening numbers anyway. That Marines and Stalkers can fill both roles is kind of superfluous, as they don't need to excell in both until the midgame, by the time you should be using other units anyway.
Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 06:01 SeaSwift wrote:
Perhaps a spell-caster? Protoss have HTs and Sentries, Zerg have Infestors and Queens, Terran have Ghosts and...? raven?
Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Well... I don't know then. Not Barracks unit, that's already full up. Maybe Factory unit? Starport is pretty full up and doesn't really need additions.
Yeah, I know what. A Factory unit that is fairly durable and useful against Protoss along with BFH and Tanks, which seem lacklustre vs Protoss at the moment, especially with the Thor nerf, although that again might just be metagame. I'm undecided.
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Well it's not even confirmed that we'll be getting updated multiplayer is it? We're just assuming because that's how BW worked.
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On May 23 2011 06:16 The KY wrote:
Well it's not even confirmed that we'll be getting updated multiplayer is it? We're just assuming because that's how BW worked.
I remember reading somewhere a long way back that WoL, HotS and LotV will all have different multiplayer ladders, so it's safe to assume that the multiplayer will have more content.
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On May 23 2011 06:19 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 06:16 The KY wrote:
Well it's not even confirmed that we'll be getting updated multiplayer is it? We're just assuming because that's how BW worked. I remember reading somewhere a long way back that WoL, HotS and LotV will all have different multiplayer ladders, so it's safe to assume that the multiplayer will have more content.
Ok sweet. It'd be a bit of a kick in the teeth if it didn't have new MP really ^^
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I'm not too excited, but could be cool.
I have yet to finish WoL :/
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EPT
