|
On April 22 2011 13:24 thedz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:17 Jeremy Reimer wrote:
Having two leagues like NASL and IPL legitimizes the idea of a North American Star League, and can only be good for both leagues.
The competition between the two will help both improve. NASL will get better production quality, a more exciting backdrop, and better sound/video. IPL will get better players, better casting (dual casters are a must) and more interesting games.
There's no reason to think that they can't coexist. The MSL and OSL have both been successful in Korea for many years.
In the end, it's us, the fans, who benefit the most.
This. Despite what some might think, the people behind NASL and the people behind IPL are not mortal enemies doomed to fight each other to the death. The SC2 scene, as it is, is pretty small. Most influential members of the community know most other similar members either personally, or through one connection. This isn't two sides of a war for SC2 supremacy. This is a group of very dedicated, very determined and very enthusiastic players and organizers who not only want the best for their own products, but also the best for others. Only, their opinion might differ on how to best bring out that product. But that's the nature of competition, and competition is something that shouldn't be warded away. StarCraft II needs an ecosystem of tournaments, leagues, and players of all ages and generations. And the IPL and NASL are the first steps of the road towards obtaining the kind of self-perpetuating ecosystem that the scene needs to be a viable, long term bastion of professional esports.
QFT for the both of you. Now if everyone can see this, it would be a HUGE step in the right direction.
As for Korea and the MSL and OSL, if E-Sports in the west continues to grow, I wouldn't be surprised if we have more than just two main Starleagues, maybe we'll have 3, 4,... who knows. the sky's the limit.
Please, don't pit the two leagues against one another.
As for what they could have done better, dual casters is a much if you're going to start a league. That's pretty much my main gripe.
|
|
|
Production is good, but it doesn't have what the NASL has, interesting commentators that actually entertain.
|
I would just like to add my opinion in here:
Positive
1 - TB and DJW actually drew me into the games, and made them interesting in a way that hasn't happened before. Usually I'm more of a "Oh that was a good play, I wonder what his next move is?" type of spectator, but the casters really got me interested in the outcome of the game! So big props for that.
2 - Loved the production, made everything seem really cohesive. "Felt" like a real sports game that you might find on a sports channel on TV, something I think all leagues should aim for if they want to go mainstream.
Negative
1 - As has been mentioned before, 2 casters might be a better option. However, if the 2nd caster's audio isn't in sync. (ie: done over skype, not live in person), then I feel going with one smooth caster is better. In short: 2 cohesive live casters > 1 caster > 2 casters out of sync/bad audio.
|
nasl commentating is too awkward for me and the production just seems too amateurish. i'm one to appreciate fluid speech so i prefer djwheat and totalbiscuit over non-professional casting (non-professional as in not trained to be a sportscaster, not unprofessional).
i can see why people would like nasl more, but as far as pulling someone in, IPL does it better. IPL is the hot blonde with big tits and NASL is the nerdy hipster who you could find attractive if you looked hard enough.
|
On April 22 2011 13:24 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:14 Zeri wrote:On April 22 2011 13:11 Mordiford wrote:On April 22 2011 12:42 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:33 sansalvador wrote:On April 22 2011 12:30 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:28 sansalvador wrote:On April 22 2011 12:07 Highways wrote:
I completely agree, unbelievable production values.
IPL and NASL need to merge because the NASL production is sooo terrible. How can NASL improve the IPL? good players good casters good matches? players granted, but the rest is to debate. I really hope NASL did watch with pen and paper in hand what IGN delivered today and start going to improve their stuff. There needs to be competition, and right now IPL just walks over NASL. but all of NASL's problems are technical all of IPL's are fundamental. more then one caster? gretorp getting better every night inc is a legit player thats actually playing well in the league. Diggity coming in and doing well. and kalador who is a very very good. TB is a horrid caster that got on my nerves in a single game. Yesterday I watched 3 games of Sheth vs rainbow godlike 40+ games in each one. They where better then anything that IPL had today. poorly done 4 gate rush after poorly done 4 gate rush does not a good stream make. and if tomarrow somehow they fix the stream and it isn't total shit whos a lot better? hell even MLG's going to have a great stream next event. the gloss is going to come off the IPL and people are gona start seeing that. It looks fucking amazing but that can only go so far IPL's problems are fundamental? lmao I myself think casting is best done as a duo, but with that said, the solo casting today was quite decent and still passable at worst. The casting in NASL has it's own issues, the casting in the IPL has some of it's own. I would say that neither are really a deal breaker though I personally like casting in well rounded pairs. Yesterday, I watched 3 games of Sheth vs Rainbow as well and was fucking facepalming waiting for those games to end. The only reason they went on that long were because Sheth kept going fucking Ultralisks and Zerglings against a 19 tank strong siege line when he could have won the game with Broodlords. Then he went Broodlords consistently when there were already Vikings out... Everyone in chat was kind of annoyed because a simple tech switch would have ended the game... After the first 40 minute game, do you remember the reaction of the casters? It wasn't, "OH MY GOD, what an amazing macro game we just witnessed, that was astounding what play"... It was more like, "Oh... that games was-", "Yeah... that was long". The quality of games right now is slightly better in the NASL but as we get deeper into these brackets we'll have much better games I'm sure, there were some really solid games today as well. If they fixed their stream tomorrow, I'd still say the IPL is better because of the quality of production and the amount of content we're getting for free at the quality we're getting it. That's entirely the problem. You are valuing production quality way more than the quality and significance of the games. When it comes down to it. Right now, NASL players are better and competing in something more meaningful at the moment. Now if IPL gets better players in a bigger league then this will be exciting!! But acting like IPL today was better than NASL in any way except production I would argue is entirely wrong.. You realize that all but a couple of the players from the IPL aren't in the NASL right? The quality of play from players can vary from day to day and game to game, there have been some pretty boring days in the NASL, to be honest, if you asked me for some stand out good games, I'd name a few but I could name one or two that were pretty exciting today as well. Yes, it would be cool to see some of the big names from the NASL in the IPL and I'm hoping we'll see that in the actual launch as opposed to the seeded test run. But as of now, the player list is hardly a deal breaker, considering almost all of them are also in the NASL.
I know. Thats why I said things like 'at the moment' and 'right now.' If IPL grows and has just as good of player lineup as NASL that will be awesome. My entire point, however, was while production may seem awesome right now. Its the quality and importance of the games that will really sustain a good league, and thats how it should be.
|
United States23455 Posts
I enjoy IPL more. NASL does have better players, but I still think the highest competition in the world is still easily GSL, so I don't put much weight in who has the better players. IPL seems to be more on the ball than NASL; no walkovers, better production, and more prepared.
I do like the whole NASL doing a gigantic round robin and making it more like a sports regular season, but that will be a turn off for most people. They will see these matches as less important than any other tournament, and with players seemingly giving walkovers like it's nothing, it just adds to the image that the regular season portion of the tournament is useless.
I'm sure the ending of NASL will be huge and get tons of viewers, but before that, I think the viewer interest might even go down even more.
|
On April 22 2011 13:26 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:16 Defacer wrote:On April 22 2011 13:10 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 13:01 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:56 darmousseh wrote:On April 22 2011 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:47 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 12:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:31 Terranist wrote:
true fans I find this phrase really obnoxious. Am I alone in that? it does seem a little obnoxious, but let's be honest here. i watched the first day of IPL and you casted like you were selling starcraft 2 to a bunch of console gamers. i don't have an issue with that because you're bringing a bunch of people into esports but at the same time alienating those of us that really love it enough to stay up till 4 am watching live GSL - the "true fans" Not really. Some of you are alienated, but not all. The noisy few will always come out in opposition of play-by-play casting, but it's the silent majority that are more important. Every caster alienates somebody, it's not worth worrying about and in this case, the IPL was not aimed squarely at TL's demographic anyway, yet still managed to attract and SUSTAIN a significant viewer count from them, so that alone is proof the concept is worth pursuing. The negativity really is rather depressing if ya take it too seriously and it seems some people are more interesting in tearing down the efforts of others all in the name of 'true fandom'. A true fan would celebrate anything that moves eSports forward, I would think. I agree with total biscuit 100%, this kind of league put by IGN is the perfect way to introduce people to sc2 and it's entertaining to listen to. There are plenty of videos with game commentary as opposed to casting, but a tournament is supposed to be about hype and excitement. We can analyze the games later. Watch the MLB, during the season the commentators discuss the game, but the cast always needs someone to bring excitement. Once the world series hits, most of the commentating goes away and it's pure casting because people want to watch something exciting. The majority of people watching are not hardcore players, just ask day9. Good job total biscuit  mmmnmmmnmm I'm getting this werid feeling like we're getting into the same debate of husky vs day9 which really makes me :/ because I like husky and I feel like I'm going against him. just like the day9 vs husky debate, you can still be in both camps. everyone will however find a preference for one or the either. IPL is seemingly being presented merely as training wheels for real SC2. zero analysis, no player thoughts after games, just lots of 'violence' and graphical fluff with very little focus on strategy or tactics. IGN is clearly focusing on a different demographic that will hopefully funnel a ton of people into the scene the same way husky did. strictly judging after today, i would rather watch NASL for the most part. I prefer NASL as well, simply because of the caliber of play. I think the NASL will really start to heat up as the players compete for the first and second seeds and enter "must-win" situations. But I have to admit, there's a lot of little things that the IPL is doing well that the NASL should pick up on. Good production is all about the details. keep in mind that these games were played long ago in order to give the production team enough time to create these pretty overlays and the consequence is that the results are leaked and the entire league spoiled. i wouldn't dare open the JTV chat while watching if i bother to even keep watching. NASL has technical issues that will be ironed out over time but it is a fully functioning league that the purists can get behind and support. i really want it to succeed because they have the right formula when it comes to esports.
Maybe I have access to different information than you but as a huge starcraft nerd(i loved those qxschool and stik casts and ancient day9 dailies where he never gets excited about anything) I think your complaints about their being fundamental issues with the IPL are more than just a little ridiculous. I'm not that big on the casting but regarding the games or the player pool or the prizes, have you even been paying attention? These were the dudes they could get out to the studio for the production on the test run. There will be actual qualifiers in future seasons which strikes me as something you SHOULD be supporting as a "true fan" because it promotes players who can demonstrably produce results; no subjectivity or guesswork is needed. The NASL system's qualifier system is extremely limited, even for the people it brings in in season 2.
Regarding the spoilers, it's a major issue. This was pointed out to IGN.Alex on SomethingAwful and he had this to say:
"The guest account thing where you can schedule times for the players and then go into the files and edit their names to the correct name is great if you're on the same kind of timetable as the TSL. We're wanting to move a little faster and provide more then 2 days of content a week, so it's harder to work that in. It's absolutely something we considered though, and may revisit that idea in the future. It's without a doubt the most secure way to hide results.
We will likely be using cloaked maps though next time."
|
On April 22 2011 13:32 Turo wrote:
I would just like to add my opinion in here:
Positive
1 - TB and DJW actually drew me into the games, and made them interesting in a way that hasn't happened before. Usually I'm more of a "Oh that was a good play, I wonder what his next move is?" type of spectator, but the casters really got me interested in the outcome of the game! So big props for that.
2 - Loved the production, made everything seem really cohesive. "Felt" like a real sports game that you might find on a sports channel on TV, something I think all leagues should aim for if they want to go mainstream.
Negative
1 - As has been mentioned before, 2 casters might be a better option. However, if the 2nd caster's audio isn't in sync. (ie: done over skype, not live in person), then I feel going with one smooth caster is better. In short: 2 cohesive live casters > 1 caster > 2 casters out of sync/bad audio.
TSL does 2 casters over skype, using a program to make sure that the replays are in sync, so there definatelly is a way to do it, and outside the rare ocasion were the connection of one of them craps out, you can't even notice they aren't in the same house. And even in those ocasions it is fixed quickly.
|
On April 22 2011 13:35 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:32 Turo wrote:
I would just like to add my opinion in here:
Positive
1 - TB and DJW actually drew me into the games, and made them interesting in a way that hasn't happened before. Usually I'm more of a "Oh that was a good play, I wonder what his next move is?" type of spectator, but the casters really got me interested in the outcome of the game! So big props for that.
2 - Loved the production, made everything seem really cohesive. "Felt" like a real sports game that you might find on a sports channel on TV, something I think all leagues should aim for if they want to go mainstream.
Negative
1 - As has been mentioned before, 2 casters might be a better option. However, if the 2nd caster's audio isn't in sync. (ie: done over skype, not live in person), then I feel going with one smooth caster is better. In short: 2 cohesive live casters > 1 caster > 2 casters out of sync/bad audio.
TSL does 2 casters over skype, using a program to make sure that the replays are in sync, so there definatelly is a way to do it, and outside the rare ocasion were the connection of one of them craps out, you can't even notice they aren't in the same house. And even in those ocasions it is fixed quickly.
Yep, I'm aware other leagues do it, and so should IGN. Just saying I would rather have 1 caster doing an excellent job, than have 2 casters botching things. =]
|
One question? How many viewers it will take for IPL 2 to happen?. Is 10,000 viewers to low?. I think they need at least 50,000 to 60,000 live viewers for IPL 2 to happen.
|
I liked it, and man... so much content. I was flipping back and forth between IPL/NASL to watch the matches I wanted to see on each stream. Pick the ones I missed on the VODs. Between NASL, IPL, GSL and then throw in fairly frequent tournaments. I've been reduced from watching everything that's happening to just following my favourite players.
It's a pretty good problem to have.
|
On April 22 2011 13:10 Terranist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:01 sermokala wrote:On April 22 2011 12:56 darmousseh wrote:On April 22 2011 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:47 Terranist wrote:On April 22 2011 12:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 22 2011 12:31 Terranist wrote:
true fans I find this phrase really obnoxious. Am I alone in that? it does seem a little obnoxious, but let's be honest here. i watched the first day of IPL and you casted like you were selling starcraft 2 to a bunch of console gamers. i don't have an issue with that because you're bringing a bunch of people into esports but at the same time alienating those of us that really love it enough to stay up till 4 am watching live GSL - the "true fans" Not really. Some of you are alienated, but not all. The noisy few will always come out in opposition of play-by-play casting, but it's the silent majority that are more important. Every caster alienates somebody, it's not worth worrying about and in this case, the IPL was not aimed squarely at TL's demographic anyway, yet still managed to attract and SUSTAIN a significant viewer count from them, so that alone is proof the concept is worth pursuing. The negativity really is rather depressing if ya take it too seriously and it seems some people are more interesting in tearing down the efforts of others all in the name of 'true fandom'. A true fan would celebrate anything that moves eSports forward, I would think. I agree with total biscuit 100%, this kind of league put by IGN is the perfect way to introduce people to sc2 and it's entertaining to listen to. There are plenty of videos with game commentary as opposed to casting, but a tournament is supposed to be about hype and excitement. We can analyze the games later. Watch the MLB, during the season the commentators discuss the game, but the cast always needs someone to bring excitement. Once the world series hits, most of the commentating goes away and it's pure casting because people want to watch something exciting. The majority of people watching are not hardcore players, just ask day9. Good job total biscuit mmmnmmmnmm I'm getting this werid feeling like we're getting into the same debate of husky vs day9 which really makes me :/ because I like husky and I feel like I'm going against him. just like the day9 vs husky debate, you can still be in both camps. everyone will however find a preference for one or the either. IPL is seemingly being presented merely as training wheels for real SC2. zero analysis, no player thoughts after games, just lots of 'violence' and graphical fluff with very little focus on strategy or tactics. IGN is clearly focusing on a different demographic that will hopefully funnel a ton of people into the scene the same way husky did. strictly judging after today, i would rather watch NASL for the most part.
What are you missing? Its NOT training... its ENTERTAINMENT... thats the goal... thats the end-game for a money-making operation. If you want analysis watch the day 9 daily but I assure you that the more competitive crowd doesnt spend much time watching this stuff for analysis. The more "hardcore" crowd is more likely to watch these games for entertainment and not so they can hear their own thoughts being echoed by some caster. Do you honestly a mid-masters + player needs to even have audio on to draw any strategic inferences from what they are watching?
|
On April 22 2011 13:34 Fionn wrote:
I enjoy IPL more. NASL does have better players, but I still think the highest competition in the world is still easily GSL, so I don't put much weight in who has the better players. IPL seems to be more on the ball than NASL; no walkovers, better production, and more prepared.
I do like the whole NASL doing a gigantic round robin and making it more like a sports regular season, but that will be a turn off for most people. They will see these matches as less important than any other tournament, and with players seemingly giving walkovers like it's nothing, it just adds to the image that the regular season portion of the tournament is useless.
I'm sure the ending of NASL will be huge and get tons of viewers, but before that, I think the viewer interest might even go down even more.
I think a lot of the walkovers have to do with the fact that they can miss a day and not be out of the tournament. Frankly, I think it's a little short-sighted by some of these players...I know it happens, but it may very well end up biting some of them and if you don't make the top 2 of your group you face the possibility of not automatically qualifying for the next season. This is why I still look forward to NASL more -- because I think the idea of having a regular season (including that open bracket which may lead to interesting 16 seeds) leading up to a playoffs will make for some exciting times and drama.
That said however, I would echo what most sane people are saying. There's no reason they can't co-exist and they both in their formats provide slightly different experiences, both for the players and spectators. I think of IPL as March Madness and NASL as the NBA in that sense. Both exciting for their own reasons.
|
On April 22 2011 13:41 tychusfuddley wrote:
One question? How many viewers it will take for IPL 2 to happen?. Is 10,000 viewers to low?. I think they need at least 50,000 to 60,000 live viewers for IPL 2 to happen.
Probably has a lot to do with VOD views as well, live numbers aren't everything. It also has to compete for viewers with NASL and other tournies/streamers going on during the live broadcast.
IPL blew me away today, I wish I hadn't already been spoilered the results!
|
On April 22 2011 12:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 12:51 sermokala wrote:
my views arn't set in stone if you saw any of the threads I was completely jacked for IPL and I was loving the stream every moment until TB came on.
"tiny minority"? did you even look at the viewer counts for tonight? NASL was 5k less then IPL at the start but at the end it was less then 1k away from each other.
Even day9 said that he enjoyed his trolls and hes a god among us whats wrong with you? I'm saying my opinion you don't have to attack me because of that. I'm not attacking you, I'm not entirely sure why you're taking offence. Your opinion is not immune from criticism, nor is anyone elses.
Bullshit you aren't attacking him.
Almost every single post that says something bad about IGNPL. You have jumped in going OMG how dare you say something bad.
If it doesn't affect you sit down and stop making yourself look stupid by attacking everyone
Was too early for me to watch IPL so will watch when vods come out and see how it goes
|
Argh...what is with all this comparing NASL and IPL...they are two different children working together to raise up this great house, as it stands. They shall not squabble amongst each other...
Let us strive to grow this house of E-sports and raise it up to the heavens...where all shall see and proclaim with wonder.
Anyway, really nice broadcast. Was digging the 1080p.
|
On April 22 2011 13:26 dtz wrote: idrajit Greg Fields well it was amazing 2 hours ago idrajit Greg Fields ipl quality is amazing this looks like watching the korean gsl stream from korea http://www.ign.com/ipl3 hours ago uh wow lol. I guess IPL get the gracken seal of approval. You don't see that often.
It's funny how whenever IdrA likes something, it's SHOCKING news. LOL.
I remember when he described Artosis' cat as "the most perfect being on Earth" on State of the Game. I was like, "Holy Shit! Idra actually ... likes something!"
|
The way I feel about commentators if you commentate it learn more about it. It's not like the people who commentate sports games only know the basics about it. They are usually experts on the game. I'm not saying you have to be a grandmasters league player, because that wouldn't even allow artosis to commentate. You don't have to be good at the game to understand the things you can remember: which are builds, counter builds, proper timing, and certain styles of players and all that.
That being said a lot of commentators do have that but people don't realize it. The biggest thing people I think hate is when commentators call the wrong thing out when it comes to analysis.
Then again I think there could be a study of commentators because it seems so important when in comparison to other sports and games there's not as much speculation and controversy. I in general think this holds the scene back, People need to appreciate the games and the casters for who they are and stop getting into the nit and grit about casters and saying "i muted it because of the casters", if we want e-sports to grow stop putting this divide.
In the end I really don't understand the obsession, watch for the players not the casters...
|
On April 22 2011 13:46 dANiELcanuck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 13:41 tychusfuddley wrote:
One question? How many viewers it will take for IPL 2 to happen?. Is 10,000 viewers to low?. I think they need at least 50,000 to 60,000 live viewers for IPL 2 to happen. Probably has a lot to do with VOD views as well, live numbers aren't everything. It also has to compete for viewers with NASL and other tournies/streamers going on during the live broadcast. IPL blew me away today, I wish I hadn't already been spoilered the results!
IIRC, IGN have said they are committed to a IPL2. So that's already locked down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
